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Senators Discuss Solutions After Dueling Proposal Fail; Trump Admin Struggles With Tone On Shutdown Hardships; Cohen's Lawyer Says He'll Comply With Senate Intel Subpoena; FBI Arrests Roger Stone. Aired 6-6:30a ET

Aired January 25, 2019 - 06:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[06:00:00] JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: But there are new signs the President has failed to make his case to the public and even to his own party in Congress. The Senate failed to pass two measures to end the shutdown yesterday, but the President's plan received fewer votes in the Republican-controlled Senate than the Democratic version. That says something.

There was growing frustration behind the scenes. The "Washington Post" reports a meeting of Republican senators got so heated, Senator Ron Johnson told Majority Leader Mitch McConnell, "This is your fault." Now, there is a group of bipartisan senators trying to come up with a way out of this. Maybe it will work, hope springs eternal even if government paychecks do not.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Well, John, there's one major problem. No one knows exactly what the President wants or what he would sign, those were to problems. He wants Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell and Minority Leader Chuck Schumer to come up with "a reasonable deal with a prorated payment for the wall." What that means, no one on Capitol Hill seems to know.

Meanwhile, CNN can exclusively report that the White House is preparing a draft of a national emergency order to go around Congress and earmark $7 billion for the wall. As federal workers go unpaid, the Commerce Secretary billionaire, Wilbur Ross, had this message when asked about workers who are resorting to food banks.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WILBUR ROSS, COMMERCE SECRETARY: I don't really quite understand why, because as I mentioned before, the obligations that they would undertake, say a borrowing from a bank or a credit union are, in effect, federally guaranteed, so the 30 days of pay that some people will be out, there's no real reason why they shouldn't be able to get a loan against it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: Well, problem solved, according to Wilbur Ross. Taken along.

BERMAN: Yes, spoken like a man who wears $600 slippers which is what is reported in the newspapers today. CAMEROTA: Joining us now to talk all of this, we have Jim Messina, former Obama Campaign Manager, now the CEO of the Messina Group, Matt Gorman, former NRCC Communications Director. He was also an aide on the Jeb Bush and Mitt Romney presidential campaigns. And John Avlon, CNN Senior Political Analyst, and Sabrina Siddiqui, Politics Reporter at "The Guardian." We have an extra big panel this morning because so much is happening.

BERMAN: Yes, I have a theory.

CAMEROTA: So I want to start with you, I want to start with your theory because I want you to shoot it right down. Go ahead.

BERMAN: My theory is this. If I were to say to you, John Avlon, that this debate, this battle is over at this point, it has been decided, it's just a question of how and when the President realizes it and how the President backs off and retreats from it. That's the only open question at this point.

JOHN AVLON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes, I think it's a question of who will tell the President. I don't think that's wrong because to your point, the Democratic bill got more votes in the Senate controlled by Mitch McConnell than the Republican bill. He's not in a strong position.

It's ludicrous why White House is shopping a national emergencies strategy as an offering. There's a reason they didn't do it two weeks ago. And now this is officially at not -- you know, they got a second paycheck being lost and you got Cabinet secretaries like Wilbur Ross acting like old bald marines, one of that, you know, impersonators not doing the administration any favors.

The President not sounding particularly coherent on this either. So he's going to have to find -- ultimately, the President has going to have to solve this or the Senate is going to override. But it's functionally over, except with the pain being felt by the federal workers.

CAMEROTA: Matt Gorman, therein lies the problem. I mean, understand that you guys are using logic, which has no place here because President Trump deals with things on a gut level, on an emotional level. He's not known to back down, hasn't been known for that for decades.

He's treating this as the real estate mogul that he was. He's almost demanding like a first and last month's, you know, rent check on the wall at this point, literally.

MATT GORMAN, FORMER NRCC COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: Yes.

CAMEROTA: But that he doesn't back down?

GORMAN: Maybe until this time. I think people are getting restless, John, as you said, nerves are getting a little afraid. I think it's kind of like when you're in the back seat of your mom and dad's station wagon, very long vacation, all you want to do is get out, I think that's very much how it is right now. And you're right, I think this is a place where President Trump has not been in yet.

We're used to, we all know it here where if he gets in a jam, he changes the subject. He's been very good at it. There's not enough ink in the front page to cover it all. But I think with the government shutdown, food lines, people out of work, missing paychecks, that's something he can't push aside and he's having trouble doing that.

And I think Republicans in the Senate for a while had been looking for an escape passage. I mean, I talked to people in the White House are now realizing that as well. And you mentioned a great negotiator, he's now negotiating with himself in some ways and I think he realizes that his standing is diminishing quite a bit.

BERMAN: And, Sabrina, you were down in Washington. There are thus bipartisan group of senators trying to find someway out. Is there a reasonable hope that they will succeed?

SABRINA SIDDIQUI, POLITICS REPORTER, THE GUARDIAN: Well, there's no sign that a breakthrough is emanate in part because the President still has not backed down from his demand that any bill to reopen the government include some sort of funding for the wall, whether that's the funding that he's asked for or a down payment, as he put it.

[06:05:08] And so there's a question as to whether or not the President will be willing to accept, perhaps, softer language that simply refers to a border security package more broadly, that is, of course, what Democrats had offered in the first place. And there was some frustrations behind the scenes among Senate Republicans when Vice President Mike Pence came to Capitol Hill, because he could not articulate what exactly the President is and is not willing to sign by way of legislation. And this, of course, comes as public polling shows a majority of Americans are still blaming the President for the shutdown, making his position more and more untenable as each day goes by.

CAMEROTA: Jim, my head almost exploded yesterday when I read that the President is considering seizing private property to build the wall through eminent domain. I remember when Fox News used to go -- in the age of ales used to go ballistic at any emanate domain issue. That was so third rail, that was so off the reservation. And the idea that, you know, Senator John Cornyn comes out of this meeting where Republicans says like no one is blaming the President here. Wow, we are completely in a different universe right now.

JIM MESSINA, FORMER OBAMA CAMPAIGN MANAGER: It is unbelievable. Could you imagine that Barack Obama proposed emanate domaining with huge chunks of the country? It would be a national uprising on the right and yet no one is even talking about it.

I think you saw the most amazing speech I've seen. I worked in the Senate for 14 years. Michael Bennet, Senator from Colorado, gave a speech last night where he lost it over this issue and said, "If you came to Colorado and tried to do this, we would shoot you at the border". It's insane, and there is no way that they're going to do this. But let's go back. I think Matt had a good point. This is about politics, and President Trump's numbers are down precipitously. If we know anything about President Trump, we know that what he cares about is President Trump. And that's why he's starting to say, "How I do get out of this," and that's why the deal is always cut in the Senate.

He's going to bring those eight senators up today. They're going to try to figure out how to get this done. And Pelosi is not going to move either, right? Pelosi is setting up the next big fight that the world is about to see which is the debt limit in March and so she cannot move either.

The deal is going to get cut in the Senate and President Trump is going to be a bystander because he doesn't know what he wants.

BERMAN: One of the new elements injected into all of this, we've been talking about empathy and how one of the challenges that this President has had from the beginning is expressing a sense of empathy.

MESSINA: Yes.

BERMAN: That reached a near nuclear level yesterday with Wilbur Ross, and we played that in the beginning here. You know, I think it is worth playing it again and worth playing how the President tried to sort of clean it up. So let's watch that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Secretary, there are reports that there are some federal workers who are going to homeless shelters to get food.

ROSS: Well, I know they are and I don't really quite understand why, because as I mentioned before, the obligations that they would undertake, say a borrowing from a bank or a credit union, are, in effect, federally guaranteed.

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF UNITED STATES: Local people know who they are when they go for groceries and everything else. And I think what Wilbur is probably trying to say is that they will work along.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: I'm not sure Wilbur was trying to say people can get free groceries, but the President clearly knew that the Wilbur Ross comments were a problem. And the White House is trying to dig itself out of this empathy thing. I'm not so sure it's working.

AVLON: Look, the empathy votes of selling, you know, Donald Trump as a kindler, generally compassion President, that's not happening. That tray itself long time ago, it's bake in the cake. You know, the problem is watching him try to clean up Wilbur Ross' disastrously out of touch, the opposite of populous, hyper elite response.

The President dug himself a little deeper there too because he presented this vision of a country where all the federal workers are getting -- you know, the banks are just saying "Don't worry about this month's mortgage payment a, I got you, Bobby." And, you know, the grossers are saying "No problem, it's on me. I know you're good forth." That world they're talking about may be accessible to over leveraged billionaires, you know, whose the bank -- who's in hock to billions to a bank where they cut a deal because they got no other way off ramp, but on main street America, that's not happening. And he's not setting up conditions for country where that's happening. He's creating a problem and equating a fantasia for how people aren't being hurt by when all the suffering is all around him.

CAMEROTA: We talked to federal workers on this program every single day. They are trying to decide whether to put gas in their car or feed their kids. The idea that Wilbur Ross was somehow sent out to be a spokesperson on this is so laughable, it shows such a tone deafness. It's not the first time, you know.

We already heard that they -- for a lot of workers, you consider this a vacation. I mean, oh my God, what are they doing over there?

GORMAN: Look, I think it comes off as very callus, I think you're right. And you at least have to fake empathy if you can't feel it. And this is having a real effect out there.

[06:10:05] I mean, like I talked in D.C., there's many Uber drivers I've talked to, I'm frill worker just trying to get a little extra money for my family. I think stepping back when you look in 2020, President Trump has to be able to run in the economy. There's recession fears, there's fears the economy slowing even before this. You put the tariffs in, now you put the shutdown in. I think consumer confidence is already down.

If President Trump can't run the economy, that presents a very uphill challenge for his re-election writ large. And we've already seen his junior members, the brinkmanship in December of 2011 around the debt limit crisis when our credit rating was downgraded. So this has macro effects in the economy as a whole.

BERMAN: And Kevin Hassett, the White House Chief Economist told Poppy Harlow that it's not impossible they could see zero percent growth this quarter. The other side of this, Jim, and there really is another side, is the linguistic gymnastics the Democrats have used on this show and in some cases in other places, trying to explain ultimately once the government is reopened, if it's reopened, what they will accept and vote for and support in terms of a border barrier.

MESSINA: Yes.

BERMAN: Because many, if not most, but many have voted for funding for fences in the past. Many support some money for new fencing, maybe not a 30-foot wall, but for some new fencing here. So do you think -- and we understand Nancy Pelosi and the House Democrats are going to come forward with a new proposal today.

MESSINA: Yes.

BERMAN: But they need to be more clear that this is something that when all is said and done, there will be some money for some barrier.

MESSINA: They absolutely need to be more clear. I said this on CNN last week, we cannot be the party you know. The country is looking at this, saying "Tell me what you want and how do we get out of this." And I think Speaker Pelosi laying out a plan this week about exactly what she will accept and she's going to pass it on the floor in an appropriation bill as exactly what she should be doing and it will give the Democrats a place to negotiate from.

CAMEROTA: And maybe, Sabrina, that's how President Trump saves face here as well. Maybe he can claim this is a victory and that he forced their hand. He forced the Democrat's hand to prioritize border security. That wasn't something that they plan to do this year, that wasn't on the top of their agenda list and he has made it rise to everybody's sort of four-alarm fire list right now.

SIDDIQUI: Certainly. I think that based on my conversations with House Democratic leadership aides, any funding for a wall or what is perceived as a concrete barrier, that's still a nonstarter but they are willing to perhaps offer funding that could go towards fencing that's something Democrats have long supported, or just improving infrastructure and adding staff at legal ports of entry. But the challenge for Democrats with the wall is in many ways become symbolic of the President's very restrictive agenda on immigration. And the only time that they have been willing to put forward funding for the wall is in exchange for permanent protections for Dreamers, the young undocumented immigrants who are brought to the country as children. And the President as we know was only willing to put in place temporary protections for Dreamers.

So unless there was some sort of broader deal on immigration, I don't think you would see Democrats acquiesce and support the wall. And if you can't even have both sides agree to reopen the government, I'm a little hard pressed to think there's going to be a broader deal on immigration, one of the most polarizing issues here in Washington.

BERMAN: Look, I'm not saying there's going to be a deal, some giant deal. What I'm saying is that the public opinion debate is over, that the President isn't going to get what he set out to get 35 days ago. The public -- we're going to have Harry Enten on, yes, toward the end of this hour and Harry has got these polls that aren't ambiguous about where the American people are in this. And the President is losing and not gaining them, and again in the Senate, the President is losing, not gaining support here.

CAMEROTA: I see your Harry Enten and I raise you as Senator Michael Bennet who were also going to have on who had the diatribe yesterday about whether or not he thinks that we're close to this being over.

BERMAN: All right, you got Michael Bennet. I'm going all in on Sarah Sanders.

CAMEROTA: What?

BERMAN: The White House Press Secretary is coming on later in the show and we're going to ask her. We're going to say what is the White House plan "C" at this point, because the Senate just said no to the President's plan so what is the White House going to offer next?

CAMEROTA: You win. That's a good one.

BERMAN: All right.

CAMEROTA: Panel, thank you so much for all of your insights. Great to have all of you with us this morning. So President Trump's former lawyer, Michael Cohen, will talk to the Senate before he heads to prison, but will the public ever know what he has to say? That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[06:18:02] CAMEROTA: Michael Cohen will now speak to Congress before he heads to prison. Cohen's attorney confirmed he will comply with the subpoena to testify before the Senate Intelligence Committee in mid-February. But traditionally, testimony before that committee is done behind closed doors.

Joining us now to talk about this development is Garrett Graff. He's the author of "The Threat Matrix: Inside Robert Mueller's FBI and the War on Global Terror. And Anne Milgram, she's a former New Jersey Attorney General.

So, Anne, this is an interesting development.

ANNE MILGRAM, FORMER NEW JERSEY ATTORNEY GENERAL: Yes.

CAMEROTA: Because Michael Cohen seems to be at the heart of so many unanswered questions. And so, of course Congress wants to know, so does the general public, so do journalists. And so will we know what he said?

MILGRAM: So in this hearing, no. This will be a private hearing. It will be behind closed doors. The Senate Intelligence Committee, that's how they do business. And remember, that's the committee that Cohen had lied to and so they're going to have a lot of questions -- a lot of questions for him.

What I think is interesting, though, is he said he'll agree to the subpoena. You have the House Oversight Committee which would be public -- but I think they'll also issue subpoenas. So I think we'll see Michael Cohen publicly before the House Oversight Committee.

BERMAN: And what about that, Garret, and what's the difference here in terms of the public interest, because as Anne points out, the Senate Intelligence Committee has its own work to clean up with Michael Cohen. He lied to them. They've got to get him on the record with the truth now and why he lied.

Is there a public interest in seeing Michael Cohen testify? What do we all get out of him answering questions on TV beyond just the drama of it?

GARRETT GRAFF, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Yes. And I think, John, you're absolutely right, there is a public interest in seeing Michael Cohen testify publicly, and that's why Democrats were trying to set that up in the first place. I mean, that was where they were expecting him to testify when he was up there in early February and that was before Donald Trump sort of threatened him and his family over tweets and then Michael Cohen pulled out.

And this is sort of another example, I think, of the craziness of the situation where because we sort of see this witness tampering playing out in public on Twitter, it somehow seems less troublesome to us than if we heard that Donald Trump was leaving notes under Michael Cohen's windshield.

[06:20:16] You know, this behavior is something that we should not look past and something that, you know, should be part of any larger questions about the President's obstruction of his entire investigation.

CAMEROTA: You know, Anne, Michael Cohen had said that he didn't want to testify because he feared for his family's safety. And then last night on Chris Cuomo's show, his attorney I think got to the heart of the matter and something that I think is pretty chilling about what Michael Cohen is really worried about. So let me play S13 for everyone.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LANNY DAVIS, MICHAEL COHEN'S LEGAL ADVISER: Mr. Cohen is concerned that when you're labeled a rat and you're in a federal prison, there could be some danger from other people.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: I mean, this isn't just in a movie script when prisoners know, when inmates know that you're a rat, things don't go well for you. And I find that really unsettling that that's what he's facing next month.

MILGRAM: There's no doubt about that. And remember that being subpoenaed now means that he's compelled to testify. He had initially said he would go voluntarily. It's a little bit different when the government compels you to go, people go or you could be held unless you have a privilege like the Fifth Amendment. You go or you get held in contempt which means you go to jail.

So I think now being under subpoena, it's a little bit different. But to your point, you know, there's no question Donald Trump, you know, is playing a game of intimidation and threats and Michael Cohen will be in prison for three years. And Donald Trump knows everything about Michael Cohen, Michael Cohen knows a lot about Donald Trump.

CAMEROTA: I mean, this is life and death is what I'm trying to say. This is life and death.

MILGRAM: It's very serious. There's no question about that. It's very serious. And I think Cohen upon reflection of sort of seeing this being tweeted and going out said, "You know, what am I doing?" Remember, he'll also be away for three years and so something -- you know, if there's an investigation to his father-in-law and wife, he'll be essentially unable do anything. So I think it's a scary -- a very scary position to be in.

BERMAN: All right, Anne, Garrett, stand by for a moment if you will. We have some major breaking news in the Mueller investigation. Let's get right to it.

Sara Murray now joining us by phone. Sarah, tell us exactly what just happened?

SARA MURRAY, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT (via telephone): We are learning that Roger Stone, who is President Trump's long time political adviser, was arrested at his home in Fort Lauderdale this morning. He has been indicted. This has now been confirmed both by Roger Stone's attorney as well as the Special Counsel's Office.

I believe we also have some exclusive video from this morning since he was indicted of cases on seven counts, one of obstruction of justice of an official proceeding, five counts of false statements and one count of witness tampering. Roger Stone, of course as you know, has been under scrutiny from the Special Counsel for years, basically.

We've seen about a dozen of his associates interviewed before the grand jury and Stone's team had no idea that this was coming today. I talked to his lawyer last night. They said Stone heard no word from the Special Counsel whatsoever. So it was a huge surprise this morning that they showed up and they took Roger Stone into custody this morning.

CAMEROTA: Sara, do you know who arrested him? What agency?

MURRAY: We believe that it's the FBI that arrested him at his home this morning. To be honest, I'd tell you, I called his lawyer to let him know as soon as we were getting word that Stone was taken into custody and we found out about this before his lawyer did.

BERMAN: All right. One count of obstruction, five counts of false statements, one count of witness tampering. And I should note that they just posted -- the Department of Justice just posted this official information just now. And we'll read through it as soon as we can.

But, Sara, to the extent that you understand the specifics in these charges, obstruction, false statements, witness tampering, give us some details there.

MURRAY: Well, we're still, as you pointed out, we just got this information that Stone has been taken into custody, just got this information about the documents. So we're looking over it. I believe that, you know, it's probably going to have to do with some of his testimony to Congress.

Again, I have not had the chance to read through these fully, but we know that Mueller's team recently requested from the House Intelligence Committee a copy of Roger Stone's testimony and we know they had asked some other witnesses about the possibility that Roger Stone may have made some false statements in Congress. And we're going to dig into this.

BERMAN: All right.

MURRAY: But, you know, it's seven counts. This is no small deal.

BERMAN: You know, and, Sara, I just opened the document right now and I think our viewers are going to have to bear with us as we read this in realtime. But among the very first things that I see here is during the December of 2016, Stone spoke to senior Trump campaign officials about organization one, which has always been WikiLeaks, is my understanding, and information it might have had that would be damaging to the Clinton campaign. Stone was contacted by senior Trump campaign officials to inquire about future releases by organization one.

[06:25:10] Explain the significance of that right there, because that paragraph I just read says that Roger Stone and the Trump campaign, it seems to me, had conversations in the summer about WikiLeaks.

MURRAY: This is one of the huge questions is whether Roger Stone had an early indication that WikiLeaks was going to release damaging information on Hillary Clinton, information that would be beneficial to Donald Trump, and whether he shared that early heads-up with people inside the Trump campaign.

Now, Stone has vehemently denied over and over again that he had any sort of early look at basically anything other than, you know, what the American public was seeing since releasing it. But this indictment does suggest that the Special Counsel's Office believes he got some kind of information, was in touch with some folks at the Trump campaign about these releases.

CAMEROTA: Anne, what does it tell you that he has been indicted on these seven counts by a grand jury yesterday, arrested this morning, if people are just waking up, Roger Stone has just been taken into custody, about false statements, obstruction of justice and witness tampering? That's not the -- none of those are about the crimes of collusion, this is about the crimes of cover-up.

MILGRAM: But remember, hearing what John just read which is really important, which is that there were contacts between he and the Trump campaign and organization one, WikiLeaks. And so this is a really important point which is that he may have lied about that, the government may be able to prove that he lied about it, that doesn't mean that there wasn't involvement. It means that he didn't tell the truth about what happened.

And so what's really important, though, is that if he's lying about those connections, it means extensively that the government can prove those connections existed.

BERMAN: Among other things, Garrett Graff, if you're with us, Stone, the government says, made multiple false statements to the House Senate Intelligence Committee about his interactions regarding organization one, again, regarding WikiLeaks, and falsely denied possessing records that contain evidence of these interactions. So, the Special Counsel telling us they have evidence they have evidence that Roger Stone had discussions about WikiLeaks.

GRAFF: Yes, and, John, you know, I'm reading this document at the same time you are here. And one of the things that stands out to me is in many ways what we're seeing is the other side of that Jerome Corsi aborted plea agreement from December, which if you remember Jerome Corsi, Roger Stone associated conspiracy theorist, he had come, you know, seemingly within hours of signing a plea agreement with Bob Mueller, then it all blew up and he leaked the plea agreement he was about to sign. That contained many of the communications that we're now seeing between him and Roger Stone that are in this new indictment this morning. So in some ways Roger Stone is now getting indicted for the communications he was having with Jerome Corsi.

CAMEROTA: Sara, look, as you know, there was so much talk about why hasn't Roger Stone been interviewed, what does this mean? Why hasn't he been contacted? So many people have been reached out to by Robert Mueller's team and we knew about it from our reporting and Roger Stone was always the question mark.

And this morning those -- many of those questions have been answered, the fact that he was arrested as you believe by FBI agents, taken into custody and indicted on these seven counts.

MURRAY: Yes, that's right. You know, I think that Roger was clear enough and his lawyers were clear enough to know that the reason he had not been interviewed was because he was a target of this investigation. But they were also very much in the dark about what he might ultimately be charged with. They felt like he had not colluded, that he had not obstructed justice. Obviously, the Special Counsel has a number of charges going obstruction of justice there.

And I do think the question going forward is looking what does the Special Counsel's Office want him for? Do they want him on these obstruction of justice charges because they do think he could provide more information about his contact with WikiLeaks and his contact with the campaign and ultimately they want to put pressure on him and they want him to cooperate? Or are they actually looking to, you know, bring these charges against him and to move forward and do they not need his help and his participation? And that's still a very open question in there.

BERMAN: All right, Sara, we have to let you go for just a moment to go do more reporting and read through this.

Garrett and Anne, stick around.

Just one more thing I want to read and we're going to take a quick break because again we're going to digest this all. But I want to read this to get your reaction.

After the July 22nd, 2016 release of stolen DNC e-mails by organization one, that's WikiLeaks, a senior Trump campaign official was directed to contact Stone about any additional releases and what other damaging information organization one had regarding the Clinton campaign. Stone thereafter told the Trump campaign about potential future releases of damaging material by organization one.