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Roger Stone Faces Charges; FBI Arrests Roger Stone; Interview with Sarah Sanders. Aired 8:30-9a ET
Aired January 25, 2019 - 08:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[08:32:33] ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.
JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: The breaking news this morning, the president's long-time political adviser, Roger Stone, arrested by the FBI at dawn. Our cameras on the scene exclusively as it happened.
This is part of Robert Mueller's investigation. Just two days ago, you know, Roger Stone talked about all this and the potential issue of cooperation.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROGER STONE, LONGTIME TRUMP ASSOCIATE: No matter how much pressure they put on me, no matter what they say, I will not bear false witness against Donald Trump. I will not do what Michael Cohen has done and make up lies to ease the pressure on myself. I - you know, my God and a great wife and my great family see me through this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Well, we'll see about that, because now there is a detailed 24-page indictment of Roger Stone.
So what we've learned, what questions remain, let's discuss with John Avlon, who has diagramed every sentence in this indictment for us.
What stands out?
JOHN AVLON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Look, this is an extraordinary document that does move way beyond it's not the crime, it's the cover-up.
The key sentence, as we've been focusing on all morning, is on July 22nd, of 2016, a senior Trump official was directed to contact Stone about any additional releases and what damaging information WikiLeaks might have regarding the Clinton campaign. So the big question of course is, by whom? Directed by whom? What is that universe? Could it contain Manafort, Trump? Hard to imagine anybody else who would be in a position to direct.
And let's look at the timeline that July because it's significant. July 22nd is significant because that's the day that WikiLeaks releases the first tranche of hacked DNC e-mails, which they -- we got from the Russians. And the DNC had said they had gotten -- that they had been hacked by the Russians.
July 27th is when Donald Trump gives that now infamous speech, Russia, if you're listening, inviting Russia to hack Hillary Clinton's e-mails for more information. And we also know, as we've discussed, 137 times Donald Trump mentioned, invoked WikiLeaks during the last month of the campaign. So these guys go, become very central to the psyche of this campaign and we know from this indictment that Roger Stone is the one channeling between the Trump campaign and his own contacts, particularly Jerome Corsi and Randy Credico, to try to get information from Assange. Really specific information on behalf of the campaign.
BERMAN: You know, another date which is key here, it was June where it became public information the DNC announced it was hacked and its e- mails stolen by what was believe to be Russian actors.
AVLON: Exactly.
BERMAN: So it was common knowledge in the political ether that Russia was connected to these e-mails.
[08:35:04] AVLON: Exactly.
BERMAN: Also in the political ether, and this was said later by Mike Pompeo when he was CIA director, is just what kind of an organization WikiLeaks is. You know, this is Mike Pompeo saying it is time to call out WikiLeaks for what it really is, a non-state hostile intelligence service often embedded by state actors, like Russia.
AVLON: That's right. And he said that when he was CIA director. So this is not undiscovered country. You know, the Trump campaign must have known who it was playing footsie with via WikiLeaks. And this goes well beyond anything that could be classified opposition research. This goes to breaking the law and national security.
CAMEROTA: So, let's bring in Joe Lockhart. He has been watching all of this breaking news unfold all morning.
Roger Stone has been indicted on seven counts, five counts of making false statements to investigators, one count of obstruction of justice, one count of witness tampering. You heard him perhaps there in the intro say, I will never turn on Donald Trump. I will never bear false witness. I will never do what Michael Cohen is doing.
As I think David Gregory made the point earlier in a different hour, nothing focuses the mind like an early morning raid from the FBI, and sometimes you then change. But Donald Trump last month tweeted this, quote, I will never testify against Trump. This statement was recently made by Roger Stone essentially stating that he will not be forced by a rogue and out of control prosecutor to make up lies and stories about -- I'm not sure why he puts his him in -- President Trump in quotations. Nice to know that some people still have, quote, guts.
These two are communicating via the airwaves of what is expected from Roger Stone. JOE LOCKHART, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, and we've spent a lot of this week talking about witness tampering in a different context on Michael Cohen's father-in-law. This is just another version of witness tampering. He's -- they are -- they are sending each other signals, which is I'll hold out and, you know, you'll have to pardon me. And, you know, it's -- what's amazing about this whole story is all of the criminal activity is happening in plain view, in plain sight. You --
CAMEROTA: Much of it.
LOCKHART: Much of it. You have -- you know, you have Trump saying, you know, please hack. Please hack, Russians, please hack. You have all of this intimidation going on.
One other point on WikiLeaks. It wasn't Mike Pompeo coming to the conclusion. He was reiterating the conclusion of the federal government before.
BERMAN: Yes. Right.
LOCKHART: We had -- you know, it was very damaging to -- to U.S. diplomatic relationships when WikiLeaks dumped in the Obama administration all of the cables going back and forth. So they knew this. They knew that WikiLeaks was a -- was a bad actor and they still worked with them.
AVLON: One other really important point about obstruction that we've learned from this 24-page indictment today, not only does he -- did Roger Stone lied directly to the House Intelligence Committee. You know, just flat out says he did not discuss his outreach to WikiLeaks with the Trump campaign.
But the text messages between himself and in particular Randy Credico are just stunning. He -- he, literally, he quotes Richard Nixon saying, stonewall it, plead the Fifth, anything to stay the plan. He invokes Frank Pentangeli from "Godfather 2" in an extraordinary way, you know, block it, you know, in shorthand. And then when Credico starts speaking to lawyers and starts speaking to the investigation, this blistering turn on a former friend and source, you're a rat, a stoolie. You backstab your friends. He threatens to take his dog away from him, which implies, you know, I think probably more than theft.
This is a stunning revelation of new information, not only revealing his character, but absolute attempts to obstruct justice.
BERMAN: Yesterday you made fun of me for quoting "Godfather 2" and Frank Pentangeli.
CAMEROTA: No, now it seems extremely relevant.
BERMAN: Today it's a matter of public record.
CAMEROTA: Yes. Yes, you were ahead of your time.
BERMAN: I was ahead of my time.
CAMEROTA: Yes.
BERMAN: Joe Lockhart, for better or worse, you've been inside a White House at times of extraordinary crisis. Take us inside the West Wing this morning.
LOCKHART: Well, I think it's very difficult for people in the West Wing to do their jobs because they have no information. They -- I think -- I think Donald Trump has allowed his people to go out and say, you know, absolutely this didn't happen, deny, deny, deny, and then they find out through filings and indictments that these things did happen.
CAMEROTA: And then they're in legal jeopardy.
LOCKHART: You know, I mean Sarah Sanders stood at the podium and said, absolutely for sure no money was paid to Stormy Daniels. No money was paid to Stormy Daniels. Absolutely for sure there was no collusion or conspiracy to help the campaign.
Well, we're finding piece by piece that there is. That there is.
You know, the best approach for them would be to say nothing on this and to say there's an ongoing legal investigation, but they haven't done that and they've done it at the behest of the president.
AVLON: Over and over and over again.
CAMEROTA: I mean, obviously, we are hoping to hear from Sarah Sanders.
LOCKHART: We are.
CAMEROTA: We had her booked on NEW DAY. We would very much like to hear from her on primarily the shutdown and everything that's happening in Washington. It's probably busy in the West Wing right now. But we're still hoping to -- that she'll be able to give us some insight into what's going on there this morning.
[08:40:09] BERMAN: John, any connection, do you think, between the two things? I'm not suggesting the president is doing one thing because of another, but does the increasing pressure from the Mueller investigation make him more likely to deal with Democrats or does he have to hang on to his base more than ever?
AVLON: You know, that's a fascinating question. And it involves questions of strategy that I think the Trump -- Trump is not normally -- generally known for strategy as much as impulse. But the walls are closing in. And his ability to withstand and extend a shutdown and pull out a win was diminished self-evidently yesterday when more Republicans -- when, you know, the Democratic bill got more votes than the Republican.
This is much more than a distraction. This is an existential issue that the administration is confronting. And to perpetuate a shutdown on one month now without pay for federal workers, when that pain is being felt and it's starting to get through to senators finally that they can't win, either they're going to need to step up and the president's going to need to relent, because his ability to fight two fronts at the same time I think is going to be severely diminished.
CAMEROTA: You know, the shutdown has knocked much of the Mueller investigation out of the news, off the front pages, which I'm sure that the president probably welcomed. But Mueller's still apparently doing his work since this morning before sunrise Roger Stone was arrested.
LOCKHART: Listen, I think the shutdown was a calculation for changing the subject from Mueller because I think Trump thought the wall was what saves him. It is the signature issue that saves him. It's a terrible miscalculation now looking back in hindsight because you see his numbers leaking. You see people looking at the services that they depend on no longer being there. You look at people actually feeling real empathy for those who were out of work and having trouble making ends meet. So it's become -- my -- my guess is, there's very little Mueller can do short of indicting the president that would get at the base. They've -- the base has made up their mind on Mueller, that it is a witch hunt. The shutdown is actually having an impact.
AVLON: Yes.
LOCKHART: And it's a -- just -- it was a gross miscalculation by Trump and his political team.
BERMAN: All right, Joe, John, thanks very much.
We're going to go to break right now, but we want to leave you with the pictures again of this arrest this morning. The FBI showing up at Roger Stone's house in Ft. Lauderdale in force. I think we have -- you're going to hear them banging on the door right there.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: FBI, open the door.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BERMAN: And just to tie the shutdown and the Mueller investigation together, we'll note once again, these FBI agents presumably working without pay. (INAUDIBLE).
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: FBI, warrant.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BERMAN: Much -- we'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[08:46:43] ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.
BERMAN: The breaking news this morning, what you're looking at right here, the FBI going into the home of longtime associate of Donald Trump, longtime political adviser, Roger Stone, and placing him under arrest. He will be charged on seven counts, including witness tampering, lying to investigators and obstruction of justice. A dramatic scene this morning in Ft. Lauderdale, Florida.
CAMEROTA: This came as a surprise, we are told by Roger Stone's attorneys, to them. They didn't know this was happening this morning. And to Roger Stone. As you could see, that he was dressed in his bed clothes when the FBI knocked on his door. And even to our CNN crew, who happened to be waiting outside of Roger Stone's home in the event that something happened with an indictment. And, sure enough, it did.
BERMAN: All right, let us get reaction to all of this now from the White House. Joining us is White House Press Secretary Sarah Sanders.
Sarah, thank you so much for being with us.
Full disclosure, we invited you on the show and you were eager to come on to talk about the shutdown this morning and then I think we were all surprised by this activity in Ft. Lauderdale this morning, Roger Stone, the president's longtime political adviser, placed under arrest. What's your reaction?
SARAH SANDERS, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Look, my first reaction is real simple, this has nothing to do with the president and certainly nothing to do with the White House. This is something that has to do solely with that individual, and not something that affects us here in this building.
BERMAN: Nothing to do with the president. On this show a couple months ago Corey Lewandowski, who was one-time campaign manager to then candidate Donald Trump, used to tell me it would make him crazy when then candidate Trump would talk to Roger Stone on the phone and it would happen a lot. So there is a connection between Roger Stone and the now president of the United States, you would concede that?
SANDERS: Look, Roger Stone is somebody who's been a consultant for dozens of Republican presidents and candidates and members of Congress. But conversations between those individuals have nothing to do with the fact of what these charges are about. And that's about whether or not he made false statements. We'll let the courts make the decision.
I think a bigger question is, if these stand -- if this is the standard, will this same standard apply to people like Hillary Clinton, James Comey, Clapper? Will we see these same people we know have also made false statements, will that same standard apply? And that's a question that we'll have to see what happens on that front.
BERMAN: Let me read you a paragraph from this 24-page indictment. It says, after the July 22, 2016 release of stolen DNC e-mails by Organization 1, that's WikiLeaks, a senior Trump campaign official was directed to contact Stone about any additional releases and what other damaging information Organization 1 had regarding the Clinton campaign. The question is, a senior Trump campaign official was directed by whom to contact Roger Stone? Did the president direct someone to contact Roger Stone about stolen e-mails? SANDERS: Look, John, I'm not an attorney. I haven't read through that.
Even if I had, I'm not going to be able to provide you some type of insight or legal analysis.
What I can tell you is that the specific charges that have been brought against Mr. Stone don't have anything to do with the president. If you want to get into the weeds on that, you'd have to talk to an attorney.
[08:50:01] BERMAN: We don't know that, though. But, Sarah, I'm sorry -- it's not the weeds. In this case it's not the weeds. We only know if it had something to do with the president when we know whether it was, in fact, then candidate Donald Trump who directed a senior Trump campaign official to contact Roger Stone.
Do you know whether that individual was the president?
SANDERS: Look, I know that the charges are about whether or not he gave false statements. And that's on that individual. That has nothing to do with the president. Those are the charges that they have brought against this individual. When you want to get into specific questions, you'll have to talk to the president's outside counsel on that.
BERMAN: So you were -- you were a member of the Trump campaign during this timeframe. Were you aware of the effort to get in touch with WikiLeaks through Roger Stone during this time period, June and July of 2016?
SANDERS: I was a member of the campaign, which is why I know that there was -- as I've said a dozen times, as the president has said probably hundreds of times, there was no collusion, there was no wrongdoing by the president.
What I also know is that outlets just like yours, CNN, spent a significant time not only looking for information of WikiLeaks, but also reporting on it. Does that mean CNN is guilty of collusion? The charges brought against Mr. Stone have nothing to do with the president.
BERMAN: So -- so --
SANDERS: That's what I'm clear on and that's what I can tell you about it today.
BERMAN: You keep telling me you're clear on that, but then you will not answer whether it was the president who directed a senior Trump campaign official to contact Roger Stone. And you may not know. You may not know. all I'm saying is you can't --
SANDERS: I actually have answered the question several times. You just don't like my answer. And those two things aren't the same.
BERMAN: No, no, no, no, you haven't told -- well, did the president know or not? Was it the president who made that direction or not?
SANDERS: Once again, I haven't read this document. BERMAN: OK.
SANDERS: I'm not an attorney. I'm not going to be able to get into the weeds on those specifics.
BERMAN: OK.
SANDERS: What I can tell you are the charges brought against Mr. Stone have nothing to do with the president, have nothing to do with the White House.
BERMAN: Right.
SANDERS: Again, I think those same questions that you're asking, you could ask any of the number of people that you work with, John.
BERMAN: But -- but, Sarah, all I'm saying is you say it has nothing to do with the president.
SANDERS: CNN reached out looking for information on WikiLeaks. CNN reported on this.
BERMAN: But at the same time -- at the same time you say it has nothing to do with the president, you won't or can't tell me whether or not it was the president who directed this action.
Let me ask you this, did the White House get a heads up from the Justice Department that this arrest was going to take place this morning?
SANDERS: Not that I know of. I'm not aware of any notification ahead of time.
BERMAN: This is the sixth individual connected to the president, either through the Trump Organization or the Trump campaign, that has now been charged in the Mueller investigation. That's a lot of people, Sarah.
SANDERS: Yes, all on things that, again, have nothing to do with the president. Just because they had some association with the president at some point doesn't mean things that they did in their private lives and their personal lives --
BERMAN: Well, Sarah --
SANDERS: That may or may not have been right or wrong, that doesn't have anything to do with the president. The question and the big thing that the Mueller investigation is supposed to center on is whether or not the president, in some outrageous way, colluded with Russia.
BERMAN: No, that's not -- that's not true. That's not true.
SANDERS: And the answer to that is, no.
BERMAN: That's not true. That's not true.
SANDERS: And the president did nothing wrong.
BERMAN: The special counsel -- the special counsel was directed to find out whether the Trump campaign had any contact or collusion with the Russians. The Trump campaign. And now you have the campaign chair, who will appear in court today. You have Michael Cohen, who was a political adviser and someone who worked in the Trump Organization under indictment. You have Gates as well and you have Roger Stone, a longtime --
SANDERS: Under indictment on businesses that had nothing to do with the president.
Let me make one thing clear, John, the president did nothing wrong. There was no collusion on his part.
BERMAN: All right.
SANDERS: The president has actually, unlike his predecessor, been tough on Russia. He is the only person that has pushed to increase funding for NATO, whose primary purpose when it was created was to help protect against Russia.
BERMAN: We won't know --
SANDERS: The president has made the United States the biggest energy producer in the country. Not good for Russia.
BERMAN: We won't know -- we won't know whether the president did anything wrong -- we won't know whether the president did anything wrong until we know --
SANDERS: Hold on, John --
BERMAN: Until we know whether it was the president who directed the contact with Roger Stone.
I do want to move on to the shutdown now because there are some 800,000 federal workers, including, it's worth noting, those FBI agents who arrested Roger Stone this morning in Florida who are starting to miss their second paychecks this week. How long should they be prepared to work without pay, Sarah?
SANDERS: Frankly, if it was up to us, and certainly if it was up to the president, they wouldn't be working without pay, which is why the president has actually put something on the table that helps re-open the government, gets those 800,000 workers paid. But it also does something that is fundamental to the survival of our country, and that's protecting our borders, that's protecting the American citizens. And that's something that Democrats have, frankly, tried to ignore.
BERMAN: Sarah --
SANDERS: They are not fulfilling their obligations. Instead of actually helping and negotiating with the president, they're taking vacations to Puerto Rico, hitting Hawaii. They need to come back from the beach --
BERMAN: They --
SANDERS: They need to sit down at the table with the president and they need to fix real problems that America's facing.
BERMAN: You said if it was up to you they'd be working. But the shutdown was up to the president. It was the shutdown he said he would be proud to shut down the government for border security. He chose this path. He chose this. The House passed a measure that would have kept the government open. The Senate, at one point, had agreed to the very same thing. It was the president who intervened and said no. So he chose this 35 days later.
[08:55:11] Yesterday, the Senate, the Republican Senate, more senators voted for the Democratic way out of this than the president's own way out of this. So what's the president's next proposal?
SANDERS: John -- John, unlike Democrats in Congress, the president has chosen to fulfill his constitutional duty, his number one priority as commander in chief, which is to protect the American people. We have human trafficking. We have a crisis at the border of drugs pouring into our country. Three hundred Americans --
BERMAN: Mostly coming through ports of entry. Mostly coming through the legal ports of entry.
And when you say the Democrats --
SANDERS: That's where we catch them, John. But that's not all that's coming in. Three hundred Americans a week are dying due to heroin overdoses. Ninety percent of that comes across our southern border.
BERMAN: I understand that. And it's a terrible thing. And most of the 90 percent comes through legal ports of entry that has no direct bearing on the wall.
Sarah, the argument over the wall has gone on for some time. At this point there's an argument --
SANDERS: And Democrats have supported it time and time again until this president was the person sitting in the building behind me.
BERMAN: Yes, they voted -- they voted for fencing in -- they voted for fencing in the past, but this is a pure shutdown about fencing, not just about border security, because the Democrats --
SANDERS: No, it is.
BERMAN: The Democrats have offered $1.3 billion on border security in December. And today they may offer much more than that on border security. If they come to you and say $4 billion, $5 billion on border security, no wall, but we'll enhance the ports of entry, we can repair existing fencing, would the president sign that?
SANDERS: Look, John, let me say it to you like this. I'd never want to get on an airplane that only had one wing. The president wants to make sure that we're actually securing the border in a totality, not just with one wing. You need two wings. Which means you have to have a wall. You have to have technology. You have to have all of the things that the president has put forward in his proposal.
BERMAN: So --
SANDERS: All things that Democrats support. There is no reason that they should be fighting the president when they know that they agree with him. The only reason that they don't want to support this is simply because they care more about politics than they do about this country. And at some point they've got to make a decision if they're going to put our country first and the people in this country ahead of their own political games.
BERMAN: I'm glad you brought up the plane.
SANDERS: The president wants to work with Democrats. We've been trying to do that.
BERMAN: I'm glad you brought up the airplane analogy because, of course, the majority of illegal immigrants in this country, undocumented, come in and overstay visas. So many of them come in the body of the airplane, not one of the wings. And the wall doesn't do anything to help them.
And, again, we're talking about the shutdown right now. And you say the Democrats are playing politics with -- the Democrats are going to say the president is playing politics with this because all he is hung up on is the wall in and of itself.
The 800,000 federal workers --
SANDERS: No, that's -- that's -- that's where you missed the entire purpose of this, John. The president isn't hung up on the wall. The president is committed to protecting our country. And the wall is part of the process because you can't just fix one piece of the problem.
BERMAN: The only reason the government is shut down -- the only reason the government is shut down is because of the wall, correct, otherwise all you're talking about is funds for border security in which the Democrats offered in December and they're offering more today. The only thing they are not giving the president that he wants is the barrier.
SANDERS: Look, John, I don't know how many times I can explain that you can't fix part of the problem and expect it to go away.
BERMAN: All right --
SANDERS: You have to fix the entire problem or it doesn't make any difference. If even one illegal immigrant comes across this border with human trafficking, carrying the most vulnerable people -- women and children -- that Democrats constantly talk about how they care so much about, they are not doing what they can to help protect the most vulnerable people in the world, and that is women and children. We've seen a massive spike in women and children being trafficked
across the border.
BERMAN: Sure.
SANDERS: Why would they not do everything possible --
BERMAN: A massive spike? A massive spike in women, children and families?
SANDERS: John, but why would they -- if we know that it would help protect one person --
BERMAN: A huge spike in women and children and families who are coming and seeking asylum, not at the wall, again, at the legal points of entry.
Sarah, I do want to ask you again about the 800,000 workers who start to miss their second paycheck today. Wilbur Ross made the comments he made. The president clearly said he would not have stated it like Wilbur Ross did. But people are hurting. Really hurting.
Our Randi Kaye spoke to a couple in Kentucky yesterday. They have a child who's on a ventilator at their home. He works for the IRS. They're afraid that they will not be able to pay for the electricity to keep it running anymore if this shutdown continues. I just want you to listen to them.
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CHRIS RACHFORD, FURLOUGHED FEDERAL WORKERS: I 100 percent regret voting for Trump.
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Do you blame the president?
RACHFORD: Yes, 100 percent.
KAYE: One hundred percent?
RACHFORD: One hundred percent.
ALLIE MCKINNEY, FURLOUGHED FEDERAL WORKER: I don't think he's ever had to worry about where your food's coming from, or have to worry about, you know, how you're going to pay a bill. And I think it shows.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BERMAN: What's your message to people like that who say they don't believe the president feels the pain that they're feeling right now?
[09:00:02] SANDERS: The idea that this president doesn't care deeply about every single American misses the very essence of who he is.
