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Interview with Author Cliff Sims; Belarus Woman Claims She was Silenced; Fight for Venezuela's Presidency. Aired 8:30-9a ET

Aired January 29, 2019 - 08:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:30:00] CLIFF SIMS, AUTHOR, "TEAM OF VIPERS": You know, our boss and that kind of thing. So --

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: One of the interesting scenarios that you write about that I think is a real peeling back of the curtain for people is the night that Donald Trump won.

SIMS: Right.

CAMEROTA: And you were in the room. And Donald -- and every -- people were stunned. And they were -- as you watched the returns roll in. And there was a moment when Ohio was called for Donald Trump. And David Bossie, the deputy campaign manager, came up to the president -- to the president-elect, or Donald Trump at that moment, and said, sir, you're going to win this thing.

SIMS: Uh-huh.

CAMEROTA: And the first thing that Donald Trump said was, when I get to Washington, I'm going to shove it up Kasich's blank. His first impulse hearing this momentous occasion that he was about to become president of the United States was a vindictive --

SIMS: Yes.

CAMEROTA: Attack against a governor who hadn't supported him.

SIMS: Yes.

CAMEROTA: Did that give you any pause that night?

SIMS: Well, I mean, there's a lot of things like that, that he says that you're like, I mean, you're about to be the president of the United States. Like, what do we -- why we -- why do we care what John Kasich thinks at this moment, you know?

There's another -- other funnier moments where he's like --

CAMEROTA: But why does he? I mean I think that this is what gets people worried is that the priorities, the impulse, the vindictiveness --

SIMS: Yes.

CAMEROTA: Didn't that -- did -- what did you think when you heard that?

SIMS: Yes, so one of the things I try to do in the book is get people inside of Donald Trump's head, because, like you said, there's sometimes where you're just like, what are we doing? And one of the things -- one of the points I make in the book is, for him, everything is personal. Everything is a personal relationship. So that manifests itself in foreign affairs, his personal relationship with the foreign leader is more important almost than geo politics. It's like that with the way he interacts with the staff. It's like that when he has these political vendettas that you think are like, you know, this is kind of a distraction from the main point. But everything for him is deeply personal.

CAMEROTA: You describe yourself as a man of faith. You are the son and grandson of Baptist ministers. And you -- before you went to work at the White House, ran a media company.

SIMS: Yes.

CAMEROTA: And you had the occasion to meet Donald Trump for the first time and to interview him. And you were interested in interviewing him about his faith. Something that so many evangelicals voted for him and cared about. And you asked him specific questions about where he was on being pro-choice or pro-life, because he had once said he was very pro-abortion, which is a strange comment. You asked him about his feelings about religious liberty. You asked him about tax exempt status for houses of worship. And he went back to that old song of the war on Christmas.

Here's what he said -- oh, here's what your conclusion was when he just brought up -- he said he was going to start saying Merry Christmas. He was going to say Merry Christmas to everybody. He thought people should always say Merry Christmas. There was a war on Christmas.

You said, he had taken a complicated subject and instead of discussing what he'd undoubtedly thought were boring things, like Supreme Court cases and the federal judiciary, he turned the issue into something people could instantly relate to.

Or, Cliff, he just didn't understand your question. I mean Democrats think that he doesn't understand -- he hasn't read up on religious liberty. He doesn't know Supreme Court cases. Why do you think that he was distilling it down for the masses rather than he was pulling the wool over your eyes?

SIMS: Yes. Well, a lot of the things that I point out in the book are where he almost always focuses on the communication messaging, branding aspect of all of it. I mean a lot of these policy briefings, he's not interested in getting way down in the weeds. He'll take, you know, an expert advisers' words for it on whatever it may be.

You know, the faith question I think is -- is kind of a bigger thing here because a lot of people have asked me, how does someone who is such -- so deeply religious work for a guy like this?

CAMEROTA: And what is the answer?

SIMS: And I think the answer actually is better summed up by Franklin Graham that I can say -- than myself. He is not a great picture of the Christian faith. But I think from a policy perspective, he has been a great defender of it.

CAMEROTA: So the end justifies the means? You're willing to look past the vulgarity, the insults because you think that you're going to get your Supreme Court justices?

SIMS: I don't think you look past it. I think that you need to be honest. You need to be intellectually honest. You need to be able to say, these things are good and these things are -- are bad. So I don't think you let him off the hook for that.

But, ultimately, as a person of faith, I'm -- I will be eternally grateful that we have the Supreme Court justices that we have, that the religious liberty aspect of what the DOJ is doing, those kind of things, they really do matter in terms of the future of what it means to be a person of faith in our country.

CAMEROTA: We have a lot more questions for you --

SIMS: Great.

CAMEROTA: Including, who wrote that anonymous op-ed.

So we will be right back.

SIMS: All right.

CAMEROTA: Stick around. More with Cliff Sims after this quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:38:22] CAMEROTA: All right, we're back with the author of "Team of Vipers: My 500 Extraordinary Days in the Trump White House."

Steven Miller.

SIMS: Yes.

CAMEROTA: I want to write -- I want to read a portion that you wrote about this. He said that -- this is a quote of Stephen Miller's, who gives the president, obviously, lots of foreign policy advice, including all of the immigration policy.

Stephen Miller says, quote, I would be happy if not a single refugee foot ever touched American soil, end quote. Miller said this dismissively. I didn't press the issue with him. There was no use.

How -- how much does President Trump agree with that?

SIMS: I don't know. And I'll say, too, that that statement, I don't think, was necessarily indicative of the policy that he's trying to implement. I don't think he thinks that's a realistic policy. But I -- I included it because I think it gets at a little deeper kind of feeling about the refugee issue that is pervasive among some people in the White House. And it hit me in a personal way because I've spent a lot of time in the Middle East working with Syrian refugees. And so when we talk about that issue, I see those faces.

CAMEROTA: So more than Stephen Miller feels that way in the White House?

SIMS: I think probably so. I think on a -- from a policy perspective, the administration stated goals on the refugee issue, which are to move these people to safe places as close to their homes as possible, to prioritize religiously persecuted individuals. I think those are good things.

My point in talking to him about that was, the president promised to take care of Christian refugees in that part of the world and I just really want him to keep that promise.

CAMEROTA: Did you ever hear President Trump say anything about refugees?

SIMS: No. Nothing specific that I can remember. I do vaguely remember there was a policy debate at one point about the number of refugees that we were going to take in. The State Department was very involved in that. I remember brief conversations about that, but nothing that really sticks out.

[08:40:03] CAMEROTA: Who wrote the anonymous op-ed?

SIMS: Man, wouldn't we all like to know. Wouldn't we all like to know.

CAMEROTA: But who's your theory?

SIMS: I don't know. I kind of feel like it's probably some deputy secretary of blah, blah, blah at an agency. But I'll say, I didn't like that. And in my book I'm willing to be critical of -- of various people and the president and different things. I just didn't think there was anything honorable in writing -- it was like basically being the resistance inside, because as a staffer you have two options, you disagree with the president and you subordinate your views to him when he makes a decision, you go with it, or you quit. And either one of those can be honorable. I just don't like the whole resistance on the inside thing.

CAMEROTA: Have you talked to the president since you left the White House?

SIMS: I have briefly at one point when I left, but nothing substantive. Haven't talked to him since the news about the book came out.

CAMEROTA: Here's what, according to "Politico," the president is feeling about your book. Trump is asking aides, who is this guy? Why is he writing this book? He wasn't even in meetings. This is what the sources told "Politico." Your response?

SIMS: Yes. Yes. I think people will read it for themselves and see all the vivid scenes --

CAMEROTA: But, I mean, were you in meetings and he does know you?

SIMS: Sure.

You know, one of my favorite things we have is a document of about 45 different pictures of like foreign leader meetings, and budget meetings, and you name it, and there I am in the background. So it's kind of hard to -- to write the pictures out of history.

But it doesn't surprise me. It's kind of like par for the course.

CAMEROTA: Did you sign an NDA, a non-disclosure?

SIMS: Yes, the truth is, I kind of don't remember. I assume --

CAMEROTA: That seems important.

SIMS: Well, I assume that I signed whatever Sean Spicer signed in the White House. I assume I signed whatever Corey Lewandowski and Dave Bossie signed on the campaign. Those folks have written books. But I just really don't remember.

CAMEROTA: But somebody may well have did that (ph)?

SIMS: You know how it is when you have a lot of on boarding paperwork and you're just going to town. So I remember signing some paperwork. I don't remember what it was.

CAMEROTA: The president likes to give tours of the White House.

SIMS: Yes, he does.

CAMEROTA: Can you tell us what he says on those tours, including he gives a tour of where he says the Clinton/Lewinsky scandal happened.

SIMS: Yes. So the kind of suite that's off of the Oval Office. He's got a beautiful white marble bathroom there. And he's still a construction guy. He likes to point, you know, out the quality of some of these things. There's the private study where you mentioned various nefarious events may have taken place. You know, there's the private dining room, which he says was a dump when he got there and he spruced it up. He got a new chandelier in there, which we paid for for his own -- with his own money. He likes to take people up -- I remember the whole New England Patriots football team goes up to the residence to see the Lincoln Bedroom. And he loves to show the Emancipation Proclamation there and all these different things. So he's just like of like a gregarious host, loves to take people, you know, kind of explore the wonder of the White House.

And the whole atmosphere is kind of like, can you believe it? Here we are. So it's pretty funny. It's pretty funny.

CAMEROTA: So now he thinks the White House is up to snuff, but he thought it was a dump (INAUDIBLE) before he took over? SIMS: Well, I'll actually defend him on that one a little bit. People

thought he was talking about the residence, and he wasn't. The West Wing, in all fairness, was a dump when we got there, because it had been eight years since it had been renovated. And it's the most highly trafficked workspace in the country. So it was kind of dumpy. It wasn't anybody's fault. So he did enjoy sprucing the place up.

CAMEROTA: So, Cliff, now that the book comes out today, what -- why did you want to write it? Why did you want to reveal all of this stuff about what goes on inside there?

SIMS: Well, what I noticed was, every book that's been written about the place has either been, let's burn the place down, set it on fire, or, let's be sycophantic and it's the greatest thing that ever happened. And what I thought was missing was a firsthand account of the truth about what it's like to work there by somebody who's willing to put their name on it. And so that's really why I wanted to write this book.

CAMEROTA: And I assume you're burning bridges. I mean, for instance, you say unkind things about Kellyanne Conway that has got -- have gotten a lot of press. And so you're willing to burn some bridges on your way out.

SIMS: Well, I didn't really look at it that way. I wasn't like going out of my way to -- to burn anybody down. But I did want to just give a really accurate picture. And for some people that's not a -- a beautiful portrait all the time, including of myself. I mean I would argue that I'm more critical of myself in this book than -- than of anybody else.

CAMEROTA: I mean you talk about the leakers in there. But, obviously, the president must be comfortable with it because people still are there -- there are many people who are still there.

SIMS: I don't know. I don't think he's comfortable with it. I think he's perplexed by it.

CAMEROTA: What does that mean?

SIMS: And actually the -- the impetus for the meeting about the enemies list was him trying to make sense of reading stories in which people who are his own staff are saying bad things about him.

CAMEROTA: And so how does that work? He called you in and he said, let's sit down and you tell me who's against me. What was the -- what did he say?

SIMS: Yes, I want to -- he was looking for someone he felt like he could trust to tell him like who's who and what's what? Like, who are these people? And essentially the case I made for him was, the people that abandoned you during the campaign, when it was the toughest time, a lot of those people are here now. And they -- it's going to be tough in here, too. And I feel like they're abandoning you again.

As I mentioned earlier though, it's one of the moments in the White House that I regret doing that. But in the moment I was so caught up in -- you know, I was a viper, too. We're talking about the team of vipers. I felt like I was as well playing the game. You know, I'm going to push somebody else out so I can get a better position, or whatever it may be. So -- so a bizarre kind of series of events there.

CAMEROTA: Now that you're on the outside, was it interesting for you -- or what did you glean from watching the whole shutdown experience where the president did not win.

[08:45:06] SIMS: Right.

CAMEROTA: And so what does that tell you -- what can you tell us about his negotiating style of why he didn't win that one?

SIMS: Totally. So there's a scene in the book where he's frustrated with Paul Ryan. And he's on the phone with him. And one of the thing he said that stuck out to me was, look at Nancy Pelosi. She knows a little word called loyalty, Paul. And the point he was making was, she keeps her people together. And she's tough.

And I think there's probably a reason why Nancy Pelosi hasn't got a nickname yet. And I think he respects her as a negotiator.

I will say, the shutdown was a little bit out of character for Trump because I noticed in his negotiating style, he's always looking for ways to increase his leverage, look for ways to invent leverage if he can. And he seemed to be negotiating right out of the gate from a position of weakness because, you know, we used to have Republican control of both houses, now a Democrat member -- Democrats are in control of the House. So he was negotiating from a much worse place, I feel like, than if he'd have had this fight earlier in the presidency.

CAMEROTA: Well, sure. I mean when Republicans controlled both houses, that's been a big question of why did he make these demands now --

SIMS: Yes, it's a great question.

CAMEROTA: Only when Nancy Pelosi was there. That seemed like a misfire.

SIMS: I think for the first two years, a lot of people that were around him were constantly making the case to like, we'll have this fight later, we'll have this fight later. He woke up and realized one day, the wall is the one policy position that is so inextricably linked to Donald Trump that you ask an eight-year-old on the street, what's Donald Trump about, they'll say the wall. If he doesn't get that, he's going to have a hard time in 2020.

CAMEROTA: Since you were involved in messaging, how much of his messaging comes from Fox News?

SIMS: I do think that there's a pretty big feedback loop there. I don't think that that surprises anyone. He does pay close attention. I think it can be a positive in that he has his finger on the pulse of what his base thinks and what the country is thinking.

CAMEROTA: Well, what his base thinks and what Fox News' audience thinks --

SIMS: Yes.

CAMEROTA: I don't know if it's what the country thinks.

SIMS: Well, I don't think there's any doubt that -- that the whole political strategy for Trump has been a base play from day one, that he bet that energizing a base of people is going to be more effective than appealing to kind of a mile wide and an inch deep. So he's going to go super deep with 35 to 40 percent of the country and bet they're the ones who turn out on Election Day.

CAMEROTA: Was it helpful that he speaks to Sean Hannity and watches Fox so much during the day?

SIMS: I -- I don't know. I think it's overblown a little bit. I mean the guy is working. I mean people say a lot of things about him. One thing you can't deny is he's a workhorse. I saw it firsthand. But I do think that there are times that, you know, maybe better to get policy advice from an expert in that field than it is from any TV host, regardless of networks.

CAMEROTA: You'll be shocked to know that the president just tweeted about you while we've been doing this interview.

SIMS: Really?

CAMEROTA: Yes. I'll read it to you right now.

SIMS: OK, good.

CAMEROTA: And to myself.

SIMS: Good.

CAMEROTA: A low level staffer that I hardly knew named Cliff Sims wrote yet another boring book based on made up stories and fiction. He pretended to be an insider when in fact he was nothing more than a gofer.

SIMS: Nice.

CAMEROTA: He signed a non-disclosure agreement. He is a mess.

SIMS: There it is.

Look, I knew that that was a possibility when I wrote this book. And you know what I said, my identity is not wrapped up in being a Trump staffer. My identity is wrapped up in, you know, who I am in my faith. And those are things that matter to me. I know who -- I know who Jesus says I am. It don't matter to me what Donald Trump or anyone else says that I am.

CAMEROTA: You don't mind being called a gofer?

SIMS: Not one bit. CAMEROTA: Well, Cliff Sims, the book is quite thought provoking. It's

called "Team of Viper." Thanks so much for going through it with us.

SIMS: Thank you. Thank you for having me.

CAMEROTA: And thank you, Mr. President, for watching our segment and our show today.

Let's go over to John.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Real-time call and response. How do you like that?

All right, we have another major story for you. A self-described sex coach in Belarus who claimed to have had insider knowledge about President Trump's ties to Russian interference, speaking exclusively to CNN. She says Russian agents tried to silence her.

CNN's Matthew Chance live in Moscow this morning with this CNN exclusive.

Matthew, what have you learned?

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, quite a lot, John. I mean it's extraordinary the ordeal that this woman, Anastasia Vashukevich, has gone through. She calls herself Nastya Rybka on social media. And that's how many of our viewers know her -- her better.

She spent 11 months in a Thai jail in appalling conditions according to her account. And so -- and she was arrested, of course, and manhandled into a wheelchair and taken off to prison here in Moscow when she landed here earlier this month, having been released from that Thai jail.

She was, understandably, having been through that, reluctant to fill in our gaps of knowledge about what she actually knows. But she was remarkably frank about the warnings that she'd been given. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHANCE: You said, I'm ready to give you all the missing puzzle pieces, videos and audio regarding the connections of our respected lawmakers with Trump, Manafort and the rest. Why did you say that?

NASTYA RYBKA, CLAIMED TO HAVE INFORMATION RELEVANT TO RUSSIAN PROBE: After that I was almost 20 year (ph) in prison. For me really enough. I understand mostly of your question is about Oleg Deripaska, about connection of Americans, something like that, but I cannot answer. You should understand me because I really was in very bad conditions all that year. I don't want more.

[08:50:16] And in Russia, I get same, and I don't want -- don't want to confirm what's better, Thai prison or Russian prison. CHANCE: Have you been told that if you keep quiet, if you don't say anything else about those meetings, about Oleg Deripaska, who we met, that you -- you're going to be free?

RYBKA: I have some talk when I was in jail, in Russian jail.

CHANCE: Yes.

RYBKA: And they explain it very -- very clear. What should I do, what should I say and what should I -- shouldn't I say, something like that.

CHANCE: Who explained that to you?

RYBKA: Russian -- Russian agents.

CHANCE: What did they say to you?

RYBKA: They said to me, don't touch Oleg Deripaska anymore.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHANCE: All right, well I -- well I asked her whether she regretted being out in the public, a limelight and making these claims in the first place. She said absolutely not. The media attention that she's gained through sort of making these claims about what she knew about collusion she says may have saved her life given the very brutal environment in Russia. And, of course, people who have thorns in the sides of the authorities, like Nastya Rybka, can often meet sticky ends in this country.

Back to you, John.

CAMEROTA: I'll take it.

Thank you very much, Matthew. What a fascinating story.

Well, now this, calls for more protests as Venezuela's two leaders battle for power. Self-described interim President Juan Guaido says his movement to oust President Nicolas Maduro is gaining momentum. The U.S. is now turning up the pressure on Maduro with new sanctions. But Venezuelan defectors say they also need military and logistical support from the U.S.

And CNN's Nick Paton Walsh is live in neighboring Colombia with more.

What have you learned, Nick.

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Alisyn, really the last thing I think Venezuela's crisis needs now is the talk of military conflict, potentially, but that's increasingly what the noise in the background is. National Security Adviser John Bolton very publically showing on a notepad yesterday the phrase, 5,000 troops to Colombia. That set off a lot of speculation and concern here. No confirmation from Colombian ministers, but we have heard from

Venezuelan military defectors here that they want the U.S. to arm them so they can get allies inside to rise up. Here's what they said.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

WALSH (voice over): Hunger often explodes as rage on Venezuelan streets, and its not ousted Maduro's government as the military generals have their backs.

The defense minister tweeted his shoulders would die for the government. Yet, while the rank and file express support in videos like this, they tell us they're suffering like everyone else.

Some Venezuelan officers have even defected and, outside the country, have appealed on TV for a military uprising. But their supporters haven't reached critical mass. And now they tell us they want the White House to arm them.

As Venezuelan soldiers, we're making a question to the U.S., he says, to support us. In logistical terms with communication, with weapons, so we can realize Venezuelan freedom.

We're not saying we need only U.S. support, but also from Brazil, Colombia, Peru, all brother countries that are against this dictatorship.

They show me the What'sApp groups plotting rebellion they hope reach thousands of soldiers, but they also rejected any possible military intervention by U.S. forces themselves.

We don't want a foreign government invading our country, he says. If we lead an incursion, it has to be by Venezuelan soldiers who really want to free Venezuela. Now we're unifying all those military groups working towards freedom to create a really big one that could be decisive.

The appeal for U.S. help comes after military uprising have seen little success so far.

This group of soldiers in Caracas, over a week ago, staged a rebellion. It was short lived and ended in their reported arrest.

In a basement car park in Caracas, I met a serving soldier, afraid to be identified, as he spoke of the chance of an uprising. There are soldiers in every unit, he says, that are willing to rise up in arms. They're preparing themselves and learning from past mistakes. They're waiting for the right moment so they can hit even harder so people feel it. A few units are missing weapons and ammunition to, taken for this purpose. Past operations have failed because the higher ranking officers were against it. They control every area still. And if an uprising happens, it's swiftly neutralized.

But he's heard messages to rise up from defectors and says they do inspire. It's a very positive message, he says, because somehow they give us hope. They are outside Venezuela, but feed our soul and inspire us.

[08:55:13] But in the army for now, as elsewhere in Venezuela, it's a handful of elite keeping down many below them.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WALSH: Now, the head of U.S. southern command is apparently on a routine visit here in Bogota and that will just add to the rumors about possible military options. Nothing confirmed. Many perhaps think, though, this is designed to make Nicolas Maduro increasingly nervous and perhaps those around him, particularly the military keeping him in power changed their minds. Protests Wednesday and Sunday. We'll see what they do.

John. Alisyn.

BERMAN: Nick Paton Walsh, just stunning reporting, including an interview with sources inside a parking garage. That tells you the sensitivity going on there.

Nick, thanks so much for your work there.

All right, Roger Stone will appear in court very shortly. Much more for our viewers, including the president, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:00:08] JIM SCIUTTO: A very good Tuesday morning to you.

END