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International Pressure Grows on Maduro Government; Maduro Says Trump Risks Staining His Hands with Blood; Wreckage of Plane Carrying Footballer Emiliano Sala Found; Pressure Mounts on Virginia Governor to Resign; CNN Poll Says Most Republicans Support Shut Down. Aired 2-3p ET

Aired February 4, 2019 - 14:00   ET


[14:00:00] HALA GORANI, CNN HOST: Hello, everyone. Live from CNN London, I'm Hala Gorani. Tonight, global momentum builds behind Venezuela's self-

declared Interim President Juan Guaido. While Nicolas Maduro insists he's not going anywhere. Also, the wreckage of the plane carrying argentine

player has been found. It is raising questions about what happened to the flight.

And this hour, an historic visit, Pope Francis lands in Abu Dhabi. It is the first papal visit to the Arabian Peninsula and we will cover it for


Let's start off the hour with this. One by one, European nations stepped forward today calling on Nicolas Maduro to hold free and fair elections in

Venezuela. Europe is joining most of north and south America saying Maduro should step aside in favor of a transitional government headed by the

transitional leader Juan Guaido. Maduro still has the support of Russia, China and their allies. The call is getting louder by the hour. He urged

his followers not to back down from their demonstrations.


JUAN GUAIDO, SELF DECLARED INTERIM PRESIDENT OF VENEZUELA (through translator): If we stop our self and we did not continue on, all that

sacrifice would have been in vain. We insist, we are fighting today, we have the absolute certainty that the sacrifice was worth it. This

recognition by friends, liberty, equality from Germany, from Spain, United Kingdom, Lithuania, Belgium, the Czech Republic, Portugal, Estonia, of more

than 20 nations is the recognition to all of you Venezuelans that have never stopped fighting and we will not stop from doing it until we reach

democracy and freedom in Venezuela.


GORANI: All right. So, there you heard from Juan Guaido. He's obviously, and you can hear it there, emboldened by the support he's getting from

countries across the world, namely European countries that are recognizing him as the interim leader. We have a team of reporters all over the globe

covering the story. Isa Suarez is in Bogota, Colombia. Paula Newton in Ottawa, Canada where ministers of foreign nations are meeting to talk about


Let's start with Isa in Bogota. We also heard from Nicolas Maduro. First let's talk about Juan Guaido. Is he -- clearly, he's asking on the

military to defect, to side with him? He's feeling empowered by the support of European and other countries supporting him. Is it realistic

for him to expect that Nicolas Maduro will step aside in his favor?

ISA SUAREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, so far Nicolas Maduro doesn't seem to be going anywhere. You're right, he is emboldened. He has the support of

20 plus countries and, Hala, he has the support of United States and Colombia. But so far, he's, to be completely honest, he's a man with a

microphone and a phone. That is it. He has no territorial control over Venezuela. As much as he wants to bring all that aid to Venezuela and the

people who need it most, almost in starvation, a point of starvation, is not going to happen unless there is a strategy. We heard today from the

Colombian side saying the aid should be coming in, border between Colombia and Venezuela by the end of this week.

But then it begs the question. Once it's there, what happens, Hala? The concern is, of course, it goes in, it's siphoned off by Maduro's forces.

It is a fight for allegiance in many ways for Maduro's army troops, borders and ports. Excuse me. So, in many ways this is what the reality looks

like. He's hoping and he's asking on the forces to stand on the side of the people. So far, we've only had one defection, but many hoping that

perhaps when it comes to the aid, they will let that through.

On the question of Maduro, he said just in the last couple of days, we are not a country of beggars. He even said in the last 24 hours, Hala, that,

in fact, there is no humanitarian crisis. It's just an economic crisis. So, you can see both men fighting for the hearts and minds of the


[14:05:01] When it comes down to it, that aid that is so important, so much needed for the people of Venezuela, that could possibly be stunning, the

three locations for months to come if there is no strategy.

GORANI: Paula Newton, in Ottawa, obviously the countries are standing by the opposition leader. How far are they willing to go to support him?

PAULA NEWTON, CNN MONEY CORRESPONDENT: That is an easy answer. Further than they've ever gone before when it comes to this kind of momentum behind

the opposition. Hala, I have to tell you, I'm been covering Venezuela many years. I have seen on the ground for myself, you would have protesters,

even from very poor areas all over Venezuela get out onto the streets and demand a change, demand those elections. But more than that, demand the

food, the medicine that they need. That's why what Isa is talking about is so important now. It is that kind of momentum that Juan Guaido desperately

needs, not just the diplomatic support but he needs to be able to convince the normal average Venezuelan suffering through this for years, but also

the military. The leverage that the Maduro regime has had over them years and years, holding onto any food or medicine they have will be coming from

another source. And it will definitely be a boost to them. That has been the problem, Hala, for so many years, and that any point in time when any

international effort has started it really hasn't gone anywhere. And the opposition has petered out. I can tell you, Hala, if you're on the street

with people looking for their next meal or trying to get antibiotics because their child has an earache, they've had it going out on the streets

and not seeing a change. They hope this time is different. Hala, we expect a statement and press conference from the lima group in a couple

hours now.

GORANI: My question is how far are they willing to go in terms of intervention? Is it just words? Because calling on Maduro to step down

isn't going to cut it, so how much further are they willing to go and what could that -- could those steps look like?

NEWTON: Yes, to use a term, there is a very clear red line, and it's only really the United States right now, Hala, that is talking that military

intervention would be an option. Only they are. Certainly no one in Canada, no one in the European Union, no one in the south American, Latin

American countries supporting the lima group, supporting the opposition now that believes military intervention is the way to go. But that means it

must be a more calculated and quite frankly a much more clever operation to be able to convince Nicolas Maduro that his odds are better on calling for

free and fair and clear, Hala, monitored elections than actually trying to entice any kind of military confrontation with the United States. And in

that case, perhaps that's why the United States has decided to keep that military option out of there. Before I let you go, Hala, it was

interesting U.S. Secretary of State Mike Pompeo is participating in these meetings by video link. It is important to have the U.S. voice in there as


GORANI: Sure. It might be a case of wishful thinking. This is what Maduro said today.


NICOLAS MADURO, EMBATTLED PRESIDENT OF VENEZUELA (through translator): Stop, stop, Donald Trump. You are making mistakes that are going to stain

your hands with blood, and you are going to leave the presidency stained with blood. Stop. They have the capacity of dialogue and understanding.

Let's respect each other. Or is it that you're going to repeat a Vietnam in Latin America?


GORANI: So, there you heard it, Isa. He was on television today saying that Donald's hands will be sustained with blood if he intervenes in the

internal affairs of Venezuela.

SUAREZ: He was defiant in that interview. I heard it. It's a very long interview. He had message not just for Donald Trump, but also for the

Europe, European leaders saying he doesn't take to ultimatums. He doesn't want any country intervening in Venezuela. And he's standing defiant. He

said he sleeps well at night still. He prays. These are some of the questions the interviewer was asking to try and get a sense of the pressure

that's on his shoulders. He doesn't seem to be budging in any way. He -- we've seen him out running with the troops, which he never does. He

doesn't get up before midday according to him and visiting army barracks. A show of force in many ways to those who still support him. On Paula's

point there, Hala, it's taken 20 years or so during Hugo Chavez's time to get the support of the military, to get the allegiance from the military

and their loyalty. It's going to take much more than just the aid perhaps to come in for them to actually turn a blind eye. And it will be

interesting to see in the next couple of days whether the protests we have coming in the next couple of days, whether that will make a difference.

And perhaps it will come down to exactly that. Do we have food on the table? Can we buy a glass of milk for my child, can we get medication?

It's now really down to the people. Hala?

[14:10:07] GORANI: Isa Suarez, thank you very much. Paula Newton as well.

Now to a grim discovery in the sea bed of the English Channel. Investigators have found the wreckage of the plane that was carrying

missing footballer Emiliano Sala. We understand from the rescuers there has been a body sighted inside, embedded in the plane.

It was found by a privately funded search team using specialist vessels. Salah and his pilot from flying in a single engine aircraft from France to

Wales when it disappeared from radar near the Channel Islands. Let's take a closer look at what this means in terms of the search effort. I'm joined

from Denver by David Soucie, the safety analyst and former U.S. aviation inspector. Thanks for being with us. The wreckage of this Piper Malibu,

which is a single engine plane, was found 67 meters under water. And interestingly, it appears pretty much intact. What do you make of this

discovery and the condition in which, as we can see from this one photo, the plane was found, David?

DAVID SOUCIE, SAFETY ANALYST AND FORMER U.S. AVIATION INSPECTOR: Well, just from this one photo, it's difficult to get too much information. But

previous to that, we had information about the aircraft was flying at 5,000 feet above the sea level and had asked to go to a lower altitude as well.

So as far as how it entered the ocean and those things are still yet to be determined. But it wasn't as if it had come down from 20,000 feet or

something. This aircraft was low when it went into the water.

GORANI: And how difficult is it going to be to retrieve it from the water, to lift it from the sea bed?

SOUCIE: Well, at that depth, it's not terribly difficult because you can put divers down still at that depth. If it was deeper, then of course we'd

have more equipment down there to do it. The difficult thing is making sure it's not damaged when you bring it up. For those reasons it depends

whether you use a crane or what we call bladders to inflate with air and bring it up. A lot of damage can occur when you bring the aircraft up.

It's so important to maintain the integrity of what's left of that aircraft for the answers to the salah family. They are wanting to know what

happened. They need to know how this happened and why they've lost their son.

GORANI: And do you have flight data recorders or black boxes on these little planes in the same way you do on commercial jet liners?

SOUCIE: Unfortunately, no. The black boxes that we talk about so often are with airliners and corporate aircraft, commercial aircraft. But they

don't exist in these smaller aircraft. They're just simply too expensive to put in every aircraft.

GORANI: So how do you begin to try to figure out what went wrong?

SOUCIE: Well, just through forensics basically, the type of aircraft, and how it went into the water. There were some reports of the aircraft coming

apart before the aircraft went into the water. Part of it is the debris field, how far the aircraft spread across the bottom of the ocean. Whether

it hit in one piece or whether there were pieces that had come off before. So. all of those things play together in the mechanics and the kinetic

energy of how the aircraft enters the water. So those are all things that can be done. This is how we did aircraft investigation back in my day

before we had a lot of the data recording that we do now. So it is, it is quite time consuming, but they will find an answer. Fortunately, the

technology was there to find the aircraft as quickly as they did.

GORANI: And on a single engine plane, if that engine fails, obviously that would mean there is no other recourse, that the plane then necessarily

crashes. Is there no back up to a single engine plane?

SOUCIE: No, there's no way to do that, although the glide ratio, particularly of this Malibu aircraft -- this aircraft has been around a

long time. This particular aircraft is about 35 years old. If properly maintained, there's no reason to think that something went wrong with it

due to the age. But as far as glide path and the ability to land the aircraft on the water, ditch the aircraft, this aircraft has been ditched

successfully before. People do survive those types of things. If there is someone inside the aircraft, though, that implied that the aircraft did go

down in a violent manner and that someone was trapped inside. If it had been controlled landing on the water, the survivors would not be inside the

aircraft, they would have been able to escape.

GORANI: Dave Soucie in Denver, thanks so much for your analysis on this.

SOUCIE: Thanks, Hala.

[14:15:02] GORANI: A new report from the pentagon says ISIS will likely regain territory and claim victory as a result of U.S. President's Donald

Trump's decision to withdraw from Syria. This is the pentagon saying this about the U.S. President's policy and decision to withdraw these 2000 or so

troops. The pentagon concludes that ISIS is still an active terrorist group in both Syria and Iraq. Over the weekend Mr. Trump acknowledged that

his plans to withdraw troops could have adverse consequence. Meanwhile, after years of war, civilians in Syria are struggling to return to their

homes. Many of them are too concerned, too afraid to do so. Battles on the front lines have left towns destroyed. They're worried about many

other things. We're talking about people in rebel-controlled areas, going back to areas now controlled by the regime, people who were in ISIS

controlled areas have nothing to return to the battle to root ISIS out of the cities meant the entire places were flattened by aerial bombardments.

Ben Wedeman is now in Syria, in northern Syria, I believe. Ben, correct me if I'm wrong. Tell me what you saw today, because you've been reporting on

these displaced, internally displaced people who are leaving parts of the country that were once controlled by is, but that are being little by

little liberated.

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, we are in eastern Syria. And earlier today we were in a town called Hajin which was

until recently part of that last enclave of ISIS in Syria. The last bit of the Islamic state that once stretched from the edge of Baghdad all the way

to western Syria. What we have seen is people are beginning to return to that particular town, but the question is what are they returning to? Many

of the building are either badly damaged or completely destroyed. People are coming back to find the houses they once lived in simply don't exist

anymore, or simply aren't inhabitable. One woman told me today that all there is left are the stones, and so many people are coming back simply to

retrieve the few belongings they can find. Some people, for instance, one man told me they had buried in their garden various things like dishwashers

and refrigerators, hoping that some day when they came back, they would find them. But they discovered that in the meantime, is had dug them up

and taken them away. So really, there's very little way for people to live under these conditions. So many are simply coming, picking up what they

have left, and going back to the other towns and villages or camps in the desert where they came from. So, the situation is fairly bleak, even

though ISIS is no longer in towns like that. Hala?

GORANI: Thanks very much, Ben Wedeman there. Important reporting. And a reminder that people even when their towns and villages are, quote,

liberated from is, they oftentimes have nowhere to go. Even the appliances they buried in their garden have been dug up and stolen. Thanks very much

for that report.

Still to come, Pope Francis is making history. He's become the first leader of the world's Roman Catholics ever to set foot on the Arabian

Peninsula. We'll hear his appeals for peace just ahead.

And political turmoil in Virginia. The governor's own party is calling on him to step down over a decades old racist photo. That story next.


GORANI: Virginia Governor Ralph Northam is clinging onto his job as race once again takes center stage in America. He is bucking universal calls

for him to step aside over an old racist photo when he was in medical school, telling his staff at a meeting that he needs more time to decide

his path forward. Now, it's all over this uncovered 1984 yearbook photo. Northam is adamant that is not him. He's neither the one in the hood nor

the one in the black face though he initially said it was. He did admit to wearing black face on a different occasion, a dance competition he said

where he blackened his face to look like Michael Jackson.

So, let's take a deep dive into this. David Swerdlick joins me from Washington. Assistant editor at the Washington post. So, talk us through

this. Internationally, I don't know if many people were following this story really as closely as you were and others in the U.S. were. Initially

he said, the governor of Virginia, yes, I'm one of the two on that year book photo. I'm either the guy in the hood or the guy in the black face.

Then he said no, it wasn't. At any other time, I made myself to look like Michael Jackson for Moon walking stint in a dance competition. Right?

That's where we are now?


through it real quick and try and get a little context around it. Friday night this was reported out, then the governor made a written and video

statement saying he was apologizing for appearing in the photo, but not specifying whether he was the person in black face or the person in the Ku

Klux Klan outfit. Then comes Saturday, he walked that back telling some reporters that he was not, in fact, the person in that photo and that he,

not using his exact words, but he misremembered it. Saturday afternoon he had a longer press conference and took questions where he said that he

believes he was not in that photo, but did, as you just said, say that in the same year he was a military doctor, let's remember, and was apparently

stationed in San Antonio, Texas, had been in a costume dance contest where he dressed up as Michael Jackson, including, in his words, darkening his

face, and was in that context. That's another way of saying, black face.

So, if I can, I want to just put some context around it for international viewers. Blackface is universally considered offensive here in the United

States. It was a common practice in the 19th century, and then was still practiced beyond that, but has mostly but not completely phased out. White

performers would put on blackface, make their face black or dark, and perform minstrel shows that were meant to be comedic for the entertainment

of other white people, but served to perpetuate stereo types about African Americans, that African Americans were lazy, stupid, hyper sexualized, and

inferior to whites. And that is why this issue is so fraught. It sounded like you were going to jump in there and ask something, Hala.

GORANI: I was going to say in the '80s, this would have been well known. It's not like you can claim this was a different era.

SWERDLICK: It would have been well known. The '80s was not that long ago. It's 35 years, but I was in high school then. I was a freshman in high

school. 1984 was two years away from some pop culture events like the Cosby show starting and like Run DMC becoming a pop cross over hit in hip-

hop and rock and roll. The idea that race relations were so fraught and separate and segregated at that time that people would not have understood,

that a 25-year-old medical student would not have understood that this was inappropriate and racist, again, he says it wasn't him. But if it was him,

he should have clearly understood the implications of what he was doing.

[14:25:00] GORANI: And interestingly, if he steps down, the lieutenant governor is Justin Fairfax, who is an African-American, who take his place,


SWERDLICK: That's right. And I think Fairfax is seen by many people in Virginia as sort of the heir apparent heir apparent. Ran and won for

lieutenant governor and campaigned with Northam in his race. But I don't think many people anticipated that he would be stepping to the forefront so

soon because people expected Northam to serve out his time in office. Right now, it does appear that he will stay in office, but he's been called

on by almost every major figure in the Virginia Democratic party to step down.

GORANI: You think he will not succumb to pressure because it's coming from his own party. I mean, it's not like -- sometimes you have Republican

politicians who are in hot water for whatever reason, terminology they used that's perceived as being racist or xenophobic or homophobic, and get a

little pressure from their party. In this particular case, the Democrats have been incredibly forceful and vocal about saying he should step down.

SWERDLICK: Yes, they have. I think there are three reasons for that. Number one is because, because the governor was so equivocal. First, going

from Friday night to Saturday and changing his story. That's one problem. That's at a minimum political malpractice. He put members of his own party

in a terrible position. Second, if it indeed is him in the photo, it doesn't mean that he's a malicious person or that he can't be personally

forgiven. I think the consensus in his own party and both sides of the aisle is he can't effectively serve as governor. And then lastly is the

history of Virginia. I'll remind our international viewers that Virginia, its capital is the city of Richmond which was the capital of the confederal

states of America and Virginia is where four of our first five Presidents came from, and all four of them were slave owners. It's a state that has a

fraught history.

GORANI: David Swerdlick of "The Washington Post," always a pleasure having you on. Thanks so much.

SWERDLICK: Thank you, Hala.

GORANI: U.S. President Trump is preparing for tomorrow apartments state of the union address, the state of where it has been, and that is divided. A

brand-new CNN poll says the President's approval rating after the government shutdown is up slightly to 40 percent. Pre-shutdown it was at

39 percent. In the midst, though t was lower. They are no closer to a border wall. The President says if he doesn't get funding by February 15,

he could shut down the government all over again or even declare a state of emergency to circumvent congress and build the wall he's promised his

supporters. Neither side seems to want to make concessions and that deadline is now less than two weeks away. Let's go to Abby Philip for more

on these figures. Abbey, what's the President likely to announce or declare in this state of the union? Because his Trump card, if you will,

is declaring a national emergency to build the wall.

ABBY PHILIP, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Yes. The President has been talking so much about this national emergency as an

option that's available to him. But a lot of the signals we've been getting from White House aides today or the last couple of days is that the

President is not actually that close to doing that. They have repeatedly said that he's waiting until the end of this process on capitol hill, which

ends on February 15th. That's the next deadline that was set when they reopened the government to decide whether or not he's going to do that.

Even though last week, late last week, he teased there might be some kind of announcement at the state of the union address. But what we do expect

from the President is for him to talk once again about the border wall and what he thinks is some way forward, some path forward for lawmakers. He is

going to call on Democrats to put aside what a White House aide this morning called the resistance mentality and work with him on issues of

border security. But as you pointed out, the problem is that Democrats on capitol hill have made it very clear that they are not willing to fund the

President's border wall. And if that's the case, President Trump has said that he is willing to either shutdown the government again or use a

national emergency. And one of the data points that he might be using to kind of bolster that position is in our CNN poll out today, which shows

that 78 percent of conservative Republicans -- this is the President's base -- they support him in shutting down the government if he doesn't get his

border wall funding.

[14:30:00] That's a very high percentage of conservative Republicans who back him up on a strategy that is frankly very unpopular with the broader

American electorate. So, as always with President Trump, you have to look at his base to try to get some clues as to where he might be going with his

political strategy.

GORANI: In fact, you're talking about the broader American electorate. And according to the CNN poll, 66 percent of Americans say they do not

agree with declaring -- with President Trump declaring emergency to build a wall. 31 percent say it's a good idea to do so. So, is that likely to

weigh in on his decision? It's a terribly unpopular move overall.

PHILIP: It is very much so. And similarly, support for the wall is not particularly high either. However, President Trump has been very clear

that he thinks this is a seminal promise he made to his supporters in the campaign. He has linked border security to what he has called an invasion

of the country. He believes it is linked to crime, linked to economic stability. So he's really put a lot of his presidency on this one issue.

And so for that reason, I think I can expect President Trump to look at the number that's more associated with his base and pay less attention to the

broader electorate, which has frankly on this issue never really been in his corner since the -- since he campaigned on this in the 2016 campaign.

HALA GORANI, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST: All right. Abby Phillip in Washington, thanks so much.

Still to come tonight, each step of the pope's historic visit to the United Arab Emirates is full of symbolism. We'll update you on his trip, just



GORANI: Pope Francis is making history again. He's become the first leader of the world's Roman Catholics to set foot on -- in the Arabian

Peninsula. He made a statement right from the start of his visit to the United Arab Emirates. He arrived at the lavish presidential palace in Abu

Dhabi in his trademark tiny black car.

It looked a bit dwarfed by the surroundings, it has to be said. He later met with UAE leaders and crossed the threshold of Abu Dhabi's grand mosque

with one of the top Sunni clerics in the world. I'm talking about the Grand Imam of al-Azhar.

The pope also addressed an interfaith meeting calling for an end to wars in the Middle East.


POPE FRANCIS, HEAD OF CATHOLIC CHURCH (through translator): Before our eyes or at it's in various fairest consequences, I'm thinking in particular

of Yemen, Syria, Iraq, and Libya. Together, Brothers in the one human family desired by God, let us consider ourselves, against the logic of arm

power, against the monetization of relations, the armaments of borders, the raising of walls, the gagging of the poor.


GORANI: Well, it's clear from those remarks that the pope's trip is much more than a photo op and that he won't shy away from controversial issues

on his highly symbolic visit.

I want to bring in CNN's religion commentator, Father Edward Beck. Thanks for being with us.

So I find it interesting because Pope Francis is going to the UAE. He's talking about Yemen, he's talking about the monetization of war, about the

erection of walls. That might be a reference to the wall that Donald Trump is promising his supporters on the U.S.'s southern border. He's a

political pope, isn't he?

FATHER EDWARD BECK, CNN RELIGION COMMENTATOR: In many ways he is, Hala. And the Yemen thing is quite interesting because before he even left Rome,

an hour before his flight, he brought up Yemen. And we know that that's controversial because the Emirates is Saudi Arabia's primary ally in that

war, and it's the greatest humanitarian crisis right now on the planet. And the pope prayed especially for the children suffering.

[14:35:17] So they thought maybe he got those remarks out of the way before he arrived, but, no. In his speech, he brings up the war in Yemen again.

And as you mentioned, he said he is against building walls, possibly a swipe again at our President Trump. So he certainly wades in to those

political waters.

GORANI: Why does he do it, do you think?

BECK: I think he realizes that faith and justice cannot be separated. If there's human suffering, if there is religious intolerance, these are not

just political issues, they are religious issues. They are issues of justice. So he's going to really going to be representing the gospel and

be the Vicar of Christ.

He has to talk about political issues because they all come together. And especially now he's working toward inter religious dialogue with the Islam


I mean, this pope has made great strides to meeting with Muslim leaders. Many times thus far. And he really believes the only secret is peace

between the two religions, so he keeps striving for it.

GORANI: But do you think he thinks he can make a difference?

BECK: Oh, absolutely, I thin, he believes he can --

GORANI: With his words, I mean, with nothing more than his words and speeches. Do you think he thinks he can effect change?

BECK: Well, I think it's the fact that he shows up. It's not just his speeches. He's the first pope to go there.

Now, remember, it's a small community. There are only 40 Christian churches. There are 5,000 mosques in the Emirates. And so he is reaching

out to those Catholics in particular, saying you're not forgotten. And there is still some religious repression there.

I mean, we say it's the most tolerant in the Arab Peninsula, that country, except you still cannot proselytize. You can't have a visible cross in any

of the churches. You can't convert from Islam to Christianity. So it's not exactly religious freedom.

So the pope going there is a major step and them receiving him, saying, we need to do better and he wants the Christians there to know they're not


GORANI: I wonder what -- I mean, the UAE is known for its displays of wealth, grandiose structures, expensive cars and convoys to carrying and

transporting leaders around and there he is in his tiny little papal car.

I wonder if he thinks about the optic -- but I wonder if do you think he thinks about those optics, that he's showing a simpler way of life, a more

modest way of living versus his hosts? Do you think he thinks about that?

BECK: Oh, yes, I think it's very intentional. He chooses that car. So you have that small Kia and this big red carpet ceremony. And I don't know

if you saw the planes flying over. These planes with the papal colors of yellow and white coming out of the tails. And he's kind of standing there

looking like very uncomfortable in the midst of all this because we know that he's not big on pageantry. He's not big on these displays of wealth

and yet he's in one of the most prestigiously wealthy countries in the world.

And so I think he is uncomfortable. But again, he makes a statement by who he is and how he approaches it.

GORANI: Yes. And he lives in the Vatican, which isn't exactly the simplest, you know, it's quite the building.

BECK: But remember though --


BECK: Yes, but he shunned the papal palace. He lives in an apartment in Casa Marta, not in the papal palace. So again, he makes a statement by

where he lives in the Vatican.

GORANI: Father Beck, as always, thanks so much. Appreciate it.

A Grammy nominated artist is in U.S. custody right now waiting to find out whether he'll be deported from the country he calls home.

The rapper, 21 Savage, was arrested in Atlanta during a Sunday morning sting. Immigration officials accuse him of being in the country illegally.

The 26-year-old is nominated for two awards at this year's Grammys. I'd never heard of 21 Savage. He is a big deal. He's a rapper that's very

well known.

Nick Valencia joins us with the details from Atlanta. So what is -- this is ICE, right, that's alleging 21 Savage was, in fact, born here in the

U.K. and overstayed his visa?

NICK VALENCIA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That he's a British national and he's not entirely forthcoming with who he really is. And ICE official went so

far as to say, Hala, that his whole person is false. And 21 Savage's defenders are taking exception with that.

But let's layout the story for you. Initially, we were told that ICE got him -- or took him into custody in a targeted sting operation. I'm told

from a law enforcement source with knowledge of his arrest that 21 Savage wasn't even the intended target. He was actually with another rapper who

was a target of a criminal arrest. They did a background search on 21 Savage, realized that he was in the United States illegally. He was

undocumented and that's when he was handed over to ICE custody.

[14:40:07] Here's what they're saying in part of their statement about 21 Savage. "Mr. Abraham-Joseph," his real name they say, "Initially entered

the U.S. legally in July of 2005, but subsequently failed to depart under the terms of his nonimmigrant visa and he became unlawfully present in the

U.S. when his visa expired in 2006 in July. In addition to being in violation of federal immigration law, they go on to say that was convicted

in felony drug charges in October 2014 in Fulton County, Georgia."

So that's really interesting. I asked ICE, why his immigration status wouldn't have been made aware to them in 2014 during his felony drug

conviction which we should know it was later expunged. They said they didn't -- they weren't aware of his immigration status pursuant to that

arrest. They found out more, the full picture, they say, in the years afterwards.

But a lot of people are very curious as to why now, why on Super Bowl Sunday. He is incredibly wildly popular here in Atlanta which many

consider the capital of hip-hop.

And even if you don't know who he is, know that he is a celebrated musician. He's up, as you noted, Hala, for record of the year at the

Grammys. He's done a lot of philanthropy here in Atlanta. And he's currently talking to a lot to the local black youth here in Atlanta about

being more socially conscious. Not spending money on jewelry, trying to save your money. Things that are the antithesis of what the rap lifestyle


We got a statement from his lawyer as well and I want to be part of that here. They focus a lot of on his philanthropy saying, quote, "Mr. Abraham-

Joseph is a role model to the young people until this country, especially in Atlanta, Georgia, and is actively working in the community leading

programs to help underprivileged youth end financial literacy."

One of the big questions we have right now, though, going back to his 2014 arrest, he is a musician who has had world tour dates and presumably has

traveled into and out of the country. We tried to verify that independently, trying to scour his social media to find any example of him

performing outside of the United States. Music reps have told us such but we can't really find any -- verify that he's actually performed outside the

United States even though his music reps are telling us that he has.

We're trying to get clarity with ICE to try to figure out exactly how he was able to go back and forth into the United States if he was here in this

country illegally. That's a big question we have today and we're working on trying to get more information on that.

GORANI: And we only have a few seconds. But is he likely to be deported, then?

VALENCIA: We don't know. It's up to a federal immigration judge. He's going through those removal proceedings. His lawyer is arguing and this is

according to the entertainment site, TMZ, that ICE knew about his immigration status and is targeting him. There's lots of nuances to the

story. We're trying to get in touch with that attorney for 21 Savage. We can, though, confirm that he is currently in U.S. custody.

And according to ICE, he's not who he said he has been this whole time, which is a rapper from east Atlanta. Actually, a subject of the crown,

U.K. national. Here you go, Hala.

GORANI: Nick Valencia in Atlanta. Thanks very much. Appreciate it.

VALENCIA: You got it.

GORANI: A federal jury in New York has begun deliberations in the case of accused Mexican drug lord El Chapo Guzman. He's already charged with 10

counts, including taking part in a criminal enterprise.

Now, newly unsealed court documents say he had sex with under aged girls, very young girls. Polo Sandoval has the story.


POLO SANDOVAL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): For the last two months, jurors have listened to tales of bribes and bloodshed. Heard testimony

about notorious Sinaloa cartel boss Joaquin El Chapo Guzman, and saw rare images of the drug lord with his diamond encrusted pistol by his side.

Government witnesses testified how Guzman allegedly smuggled drugs through tunnels, cars, semi-submersible, even inside cans of chili and fake

bananas. Details from his former associates now cooperating with the government, included explosive testimony from fellow Sinaloa Cartel member,

Alex Cifuentes.

He testified about his former bosses bribes allegedly paid to Mexican officials. Cifuentes claimed Guzman once paid former Mexican President

Enrique Pena Nieto a $100 million in October 2012 when he was president- elect. Pena Nieto's former chief of staff called the allegations false, defamatory and absurd. Adding that it was Pena Nieto's administration who

located, arrested, and extradited Guzman to the United States for trial.

El Chapo's former I.T. expert, Christian Rodriguez whose photos shown here was obscured by prosecutors to hide his identity revealed how the cartel

communicated through a system of encrypted phones. He used spyware to capture conversations with members of Guzman's criminal organization.

Guzman is facing multiple counts, including firearm and drug trafficking charges and faces life in prison.

Though the list of charges does not include murder, testimony took a graphic turn when Isaias Valdez was called to the stand. The former

security guard turned pilot recalled when Guzman was involved in the gruesome murders of three rivals.

Former Colombian cartel lord, Juan Carlos "La Chupeta" Ramirez also called to court testifying, he started working with El Chapo in the early 90s.

Ramirez went on to work with Guzman for nearly 18 years and was eventually captured in 2007. He was so hotly pursued by authorities that he underwent

several plastic surgeries to try to evade capture.

[14:45:15] One constant fixture in the courtroom has been Guzman's wife of more than 10 years, former beauty queen Emma Coronel. Coronel helped her

husband escape from a Mexican prison according to testimony that came from a former prison guard turned Chapo associate. She's not facing charges at

this time and her lawyer had no comment about those allegations.

In their final move to convince jurors of Guzman's guilt, prosecutors showed images of the tunnel that provided his escape. A government expert

described it as being just under a mile long complete with a motorcycle track set to have been used by El Chapo and an associate for the ride to


El Chapo's defense attorneys rested their case in under 40 minutes entering testimony from just two witnesses.

Polo Sandoval, CNN, New York.


GORANI: Still to come tonight, with Brexit just around the corner and still in deadlock, planning for a no-deal situation is stepping up. This

time it involves the queen.


GORANI: We are less than two months until the U.K. leaves the E.U. and the Brexit battle rumbles on. Theresa May is gathering lawmakers from all

factions of her warring Conservative Party together for a three-day brainstorm to come up with a solution to the Irish border backstop.

It's a contentious issue in Westminster, and when the E.U. has repeatedly said is not negotiable, they want that guarantee in place to make sure that

a hard border does not come back between Ireland and Northern Ireland.

The prime minister is due to travel to Northern Ireland tomorrow to try to address fears over the border. But the Irish government and the E.U. are

standing firm.

Nick Robinson spent the day at the border which is soon to be the border between the U.K. and the E.U.


NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: It's a big week for Ireland's politicians with Brexit. The prime minister is going to

Brussels, the deputy prime minister is going to the United States. The week begins with the Europe affairs minister bringing the Dutch foreign

minister here to the border between north and south to take a look.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Who wants to go first?

ROBERTSON: Britain has asked the European Union to soften its position on the backstop. Is that possible?

STEF BLOK, MINISTER OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS OF THE NETHERLANDS: Well, the backstop is not there because European Union asked for a backstop, but

because the U.K. has drawn a number of red lines, like not wanting customs union, not wanting a border in the Irish Sea. So after two and a half

years of negotiation, it's not very realistic to expect it will be a completely article.

[14:50:01] ROBERTSON: An hour earlier, I asked the Irish minister that same question. I got the same answer.

Can you not soften the backstop?

HELEN MCENTEE, IRISH MINISTER FOR E.U. AFFAIRS: The backstop is not something that we can compromise on. This is based on commitments that

were given by the U.K. This is based on commitments not just in terms of the Brexit negotiations last December and many times since then by the

prime minister. This is based on an international peace treaty which the U.K. are co-guarantors of and which they have repeatedly said that they

want to protect.

So what we're asking for is that they fulfill the commitments that they've made. This is a deal that was negotiated with the U.K., by the U.K. They

were very much a part of these discussions for the past two years.

ROBERTSON: Can you help me understand the level of frustration that exists with the British position as we get closer to the deadline?

BLOK: Well, of course, it is extremely serious in its consequence if there would be a no-deal Brexit. It will be extremely serious here where we are

now. A border that isn't a border between the Irish Republic and Northern Ireland. Also, it'll be very serious for the Netherlands, as we are one of

the largest trading partners of the U.K. So it's extremely important that we will agree on the negotiated Brexit.

MCENTEE: As the minister have said, we spent two years looking at every possibility. And what we have come up with is the backstop. It was

negotiated with the U.K., by the U.K. and in its current format. There are concessions on both sides. But we are almost two weeks on and we have yet

to see any proposals that we believe would work.

ROBERTSON: The border meeting, an object lesson for the U.K. and joined up thinking. And the E.U.'S firm position.

Likely a lot more high-profile visits to the border like this one before the issue of Brexit, the backstop on what's to become of this highly

contentious border between Northern Ireland and the Irish Republic.

Nic Robertson, CNN, on the border between Northern Ireland and the Irish Republic.


GORANI: It's a bit overcast there on the border.

Staying with Brexit, over the past few months, we've been reporting on the fears surrounding, you know, what could happen if the U.K. crashes out of

the E.U. without a deal. Reports of Britain stockpiling food and medicine have been widespread, and the government has been putting in place

contingency plans.

And now, they are reportedly repurposing an old emergency plan. Evacuating the queen.

Media reports say British officials are reviving a Cold War emergency plan to relocate the royal family from London, should there be riots following a

no-deal Brexit. But are the plans necessary or are they a sign of unwarranted panic? With almost all things related to Brexit, it depends

who you ask. We'll be right back.


GORANI: Well, when you think of art places like the Louvre or the Guggenheim or the Metropolitan Museum of Art spring to mind, but these

young artists in Qatar are trying to put their work on the map.


SARA AL-FADAAQ, INTERDISCIPLINARY ARTIST: My name is Sara Al-Fadaaq. I'm an interdisciplinary artist. But I mainly focus on photography and print


I take pictures of it over and over again.

[14:55:03] It looks almost as if just a solid cube, sliced, piece by piece to get that shape. Can't go wrong being a photographer here.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sara Al-Fadaaq is among a growing number of young artists in Qatar.

AL-FADAAQ: We're photographing like various junkyards and working with found cars.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She's part of an artist incubator program called the Artist in Residence at Doha's old fire station.

AL-FADAAQ: The fire station residency is basically a program where around 20 artists are selected from Qatar, regardless of nationality. And they

are given a studio for nine months to experiment.

REEM AL THANI, DIRECTOR OF EXHIBITIONS, QATAR MUSEUMS: We're incubating artists at this point. We have facilities, like a wood shop.

Other exhibition spaces in there that all pertain to inspiration, creation, and the change and evolution in a lot of these artists so it can inspire

the younger generation that goes there.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The fire station has become a creative hub in the city.

NAYLA AL MULLA, ARTIST IN RESIDENCE: I think we've been the troublemakers of this year's fire station residency. We're really experimenting is what

we're doing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These fashion artists are behind the fire station's latest collaboration.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Let me get some more length.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A workshop entitled, "Playdate in the Park."

AL-MULLA: Everyone loves to dress up everywhere around the world, here in this culture because everyone does feel liable and it's a culture where you

have to kind of dress up in a certain way and behave in a certain way, which makes us a lot more beautiful and that much more special when we do

these experiences because they get a chance to embrace and explore parts that they maybe can't do in everyday life.

FEDERICA VISANI, ARTIST IN RESIDENCE: We made it gender less, borderless, because men were wearing black, women were wearing white. You didn't know

who was who because of the masks. So it was also a friendly poke saying like, look, you can be who you want today. You can just embrace any

identity you want. Just have fun with it.


GORANI: I'm Hala Gorani. Thanks for watching tonight. I'll see you tomorrow same time, same place. "QUEST MEANS BUSINESS" is next.