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Interview with Republican Senator John Kennedy of Louisiana; President Trump to Deliver State of the Union Address; Guests to State of the Union Include Woman Who had Prison Sentence Commuted by President Trump; Stacey Abrams to Deliver Democratic Response to President Trump's State of the Union Address. Aired 8-8:30a ET

Aired February 05, 2019 - 8:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:00:00] UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The governor has to make the decisions in the best interests of the Commonwealth of Virginia.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We ought to get all the facts before we subject somebody to the political death penalty.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I understand he wants time to clear his name, but Virginians don't have time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is NEW DAY with Alisyn Camerota on John Berman.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning, everyone. Welcome to your NEW DAY. It is Tuesday, February 5th, 8:00 in the east. Alisyn is off, Poppy Harlow joins me this morning. Big day.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Huge day. Consequential day, yes.

BERMAN: Perhaps, maybe the first day of the rest of the president's political life, or not. In just hours the president will go to the U.S. Capitol where tonight, you're looking at live pictures right now, for the first time he will deliver the State of the Union address to a divided Congress. The speech comes after the longest government shutdown in U.S. history that resulted in nearly a million federal workers not getting paychecks and the president not getting a penny for his wall. We are told the theme of tonight's speech is, quote, choosing greatness. And the president, again, we are told by the White House, will try to strike a tone of unity and urge both sides of the aisle to come together.

HARLOW: Also, a big and significant development overnight. Federal prosecutors have subpoenaed President Trump's inaugural committee for documents related to donors, vendors, and finances. The subpoena discloses a wide-ranging inquiry with prosecutors investigating a litany of potential crimes from conspiracy against the United States to mail and wire fraud, money laundering, and even the possibility of illegal contributions from foreign donors.

BERMAN: I want to bring in David Gergen, former presidential adviser to Nixon, Ford, Reagan, and Clinton, and CNN senior political analyst Joe Lockhart, former White House press secretary under President Clinton and CNN political commentator, and Mary Katherine Ham, conservative blogger and a CNN political commentator and Georgia football fan which produced Sony Michel who just won the Super Bowl.

MARY KATHERINE HAM, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I knew you were going there.

BERMAN: For the Patriots. I put the important things first.

David Gergen, to you. We are told that the president wants to project a message of unity tonight. I really do think the two biggest questions about that -- you're laughing. Credible message, credible messenger?

DAVID GERGEN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: He's going to be up there with his right hand, he's going to extend his right to shake your right hand. Then he's going to take his left hand and bang you around, because that's his play. That's who he's going to be. He's going to talk unity, but he's also going to kick the Democrats around a little bit. It's just inevitable.

HARLOW: Joe Lockhart, Nancy Pelosi will be actually standing over his shoulder there, right, with the gavel. It's the first time that he will deliver this in front of a divided Congress after he called her rigid and said that she wants criminals to come across the border, et cetera, in the fight for his border all, and by the way, following a bitter battle over even having this speech.

JOE LOCKHART, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: The drama is good for the president. The fact that the government was shut down, this was delayed. I was with President Clinton when he gave a speech both as the trial was about to start in the Senate and the year earlier with the Lewinsky story. So this is a big opportunity. But I'm really struck by two things. One is the dilemma he's in. It's very hard for him to be bipartisan one day a year and be believable. The second is how little they have done to set up and then amplify the speech. The tradition is you spend a couple weeks before the speech leaking out little pieces of it to get support.

HARLOW: We got some last night.

LOCKHART: I'm talking weeks.

HARLOW: Yes.

LOCKHART: And then spending a week going out and traveling and going and delivering the message. The basic block and tackling they don't do. So I think it is a huge opportunity in large part because of the drama that we're going to have tonight. It's hard to see him threading the political needle, though.

BERMAN: Is it, Mary Katherine Ham, unity Brigadoon where one day every 100 years the president comes forward and reaches across the aisle? And does the right, frankly, in his base even want to see that? HAM: First of all, it's the only event in America that could rival

this year's Super Bowl for hype and questionable entertainment value.

BERMAN: That's so true. No one is going to say something more true than that.

HAM: Sony Michel excepted. But I think he tries to be a more traditional actor in these more traditional places. And yes, I think people look at it and go, he's talking about unity, but I expect him to tweet in a couple of hours. And I think that's a fair expectation. People also kind of like to see him acting like a normal political actor and they go, this is sort of a relief. So I think people have an emotional response to that when he does stick to the script and when he does follow the teleprompter which I largely expect him to do tonight.

There's also the change he could through you a curve and just heckle Ralph Northam from the stage. So you never know what will happen. But I think there are some things he can talk about that are actually track record things that can bring people together. He has at least two guests who are related to criminal justice reform. Congress actually passed the First Step Act that released this man, Matthew Charles, who will be there. Alice Johnson, whose sons he commuted.

[08:05:00] There's work he can do on that that he's not shy about doing, which I think he likes to take those risks. And that's something to talk about that could bring people together. But look, they are few and far between. It's an important step, though.

HARLOW: David Gergen, Senator Lindsey Graham saying this is a defining moment for the presidency. Is it tonight a defining moment for the presidency, or the ensuing days a defining moment, meaning does he just revert to what we have seen him do, which is take a quick pause and then start, as you said, slapping around.

GERGEN: This is the last time he's going to have a chance to talk to a huge audience about immigration and particularly about the border wall. This is his last chance to bring people over. He hasn't been able to make the sale so far. The speech from the Oval Office was a dud on that question. So if he has a live crowd in front of him that often gets him amped up, and he could potentially bring people over.

I think where he probably will start and where he should start is where he has some bragging rights, and that's on the economy. The economy is doing better. And every president who experiences a better economy has always takes credit for it, whether or not you have legitimate rights to that. And I think he can say there are two or three things that are going on in a genuine way to set this up in a more positive frame.

HARLOW: I think he will start on the economy.

GERGEN: I would assume. But I also think he comes in at the weakest moment of his presidency. Machiavelli said hundreds of years ago that a prince must either be loved or feared, and if you had to choose, be feared. He's neither. He's neither feared, nor loved in this Congress.

BERMAN: It's interesting, "The New York Times" had a story about that. Our friend, Maggie Haberman, part of the byline of that, saying that Republicans are the only ones who truly have feared him up until this point, and now they may fear him no longer. You have seen Mitch McConnell splitting from him on foreign policy and more Republicans coming forward.

Mary Katherine, I had an interview with Cliff Sims, who has a controversial book out, last hour, but he did say something interesting, which is that the first address to the joint session of Congress in last year's State of the Union, when the president would come back from the Capitol he was so jazzed up by the applause he got. And the White House staff and the advisers all cheered him partially because they wanted him to know he could succeed if he tried to strike a more bipartisan or unifying message. There is something patronizing about that to an extent if they're trying to convince him that look, look, it's good, Mr. President, it's good, Mr. President. But his advisers seem to want it.

HAM: Yes, nothing wrong with incentivizing good behavior. I think that he does respond to the audience he is speaking to, whether it's reporters -- in that case it's a little rougher treatment -- or his base or Congress and the press coverage that comes in the wake of, as I said, playing by the rules, which he does every now and then. But as I always say with President Trump, he can only keep a lid on his id for so long. So it comes out eventually.

But I do think he's not a traditional political actor in some good ways where he does cross these lines doing criminal justice reform as a Republican, talking about getting out of Syria and not minding that Mitch McConnell does not agree with him on that. There's even talk, I think Julie Pace reported something about an HIV moonshot discussion in this, which is outside of the box, you would think, for someone in his place. So I think there are moments that are interesting where he can build these relationships. It's whether he decides to sabotage them shortly after.

HARLOW: A lid on his id is the line of the morning, by the way.

BERMAN: And fits on a sweatshirt, if you need it to, or a baseball hat. Just saying.

HARLOW: It does, just saying. Joe Lockhart, given what you have lived through and advised through in the Clinton era, what would be your advice to the administration tonight, to the president on truly unifying?

LOCKHART: I've thought about this, and I really do think he should go with his id. This is the beginning of the reelection campaign. That's certainly one way to look at it. His strategy is to make sure his base turns out, and that the Democrats nominate someone that independents are uncomfortable, and that Howard Schultz gets in. All of those things, because he's not going to get more than 46 percent, 47 percent of the vote. So it is very difficult to see him giving a truly bipartisan speech

and then delivering on it. So I think if he does the bipartisan speech, by tomorrow morning we'll see tweets. I think politically, I would tell him to stay with what he's got, make this about the wall, essentially it's very -- I don't see any other strategy he's got right now.

GERGEN: So he's promised to have an announcement of some sort about the wall. What do you think that will be, then?

LOCKHART: I think he'll tease the national emergency. I don't think -- they're saying he's not going to announce it, but what they say, you throw a lot of things out there to create misdirection and mystery. I think that in the end he's going to live or die with this wall. And if he doesn't get the wall, he wants to make sure the party opposite is the one that kept the rapists coming in, that kept the drugs coming in, that kept the human trafficking coming in.

[08:10:07] BERMAN: So Mary Katherine, what do you expect to see from Nancy Pelosi? She doesn't really get to talk tonight, but symbolically, what message do you think she wants to send?

HAM: So much shade from behind the podium. This is, by the way, second only to the response in awkward staging where you have to sit there and sort of keep a polite face for the entirety of the speech and decide when to clap and when not to. But look, she has stood up to him in the shutdown fight. I think she probably feels good about the results on that. They have another fight upcoming, so she's going to be back there looking none too happy with him, but cordial and perhaps ready to fight. I don't know exactly what that looks like exactly. But there we have it.

HARLOW: Stacy Abrams --

GERGEN: Surprise choice.

HARLOW: Surprise choice. She would be a first, I believe the first African-American female to deliver the Democratic response tonight.

GERGEN: Right.

HARLOW: What would be the most effective response?

GERGEN: I think that her handicap is she's not a really credible person on foreign policy and some of the speech will be about foreign policy. So I assume that she's going to go mostly for the domestic side, and what still remains to be done and how far behind we still are. There will be some issues about race and gender and the society. She has to push that.

But this is mostly about getting Stacy Abrams to run for the Senate. And if they can get her to come off tonight do that tonight, that's a big plus for them.

BERMAN: The guest list, and Mary Katherine address this a little bit, the people we're going to see in the president's box, you're going to see Alice Marie Johnson, who had a prison sentence that was commuted after serving 21 years. You have a survivor from the Tree of Life Synagogue massacre, you also have people definitely tied to immigration, a special agent in the trafficking unit and also relatives of people killed by undocumented immigrants. AND then perhaps the most interesting person is someone named Joshua Trump who is a sixth grader who says he's been bullied because of his last name.

LOCKHART: My idea for the Democrats is to get a young kid named Sessions to counter the bullying given that the biggest bully in the country is the president, his best target was Jeff Sessions. But that whole anti-bullying campaign from Melania Trump is somewhat flawed given her husband and the way he acts.

I think the interesting thing, what I'm looking for with Stacey Abrams is to bring to life Nancy Pelosi's legislative package that talks about transparency in government, voter suppression, making sure people have a right to vote. Those are things she's uniquely qualified to talk about that because there are a lot of people who think that if the vote was done fairly in Georgia, she would have won as opposed to the secretary of state.

HAM: Including Stacey Abrams, who has yet to concede, I believe. She halted her campaign but has not conceded, speaking of Democrats getting off the rails in who they want to run for office.

LOCKHART: I think that is an issue that you are going to hear a lot about from Democrats going to 2020, a, because I think it's right, and, b, because it is something the base strongly believes in, Democratic base.

HARLOW: Thank you all.

BERMAN: Joe, Mary Katherine Ham, David Gergen, thank you very much.

HARLOW: What was the id line?

BERMAN: Put a lid on the id.

HARLOW: Never going to forget that one, Mary Katherine.

Coming up in just minutes, you're going to want to see this. White House Press Secretary Sarah Sanders will join us.

BERMAN: And be sure to watch CNN's special live coverage of the State of the Union address tonight at 8:00 p.m. eastern time.

HARLOW: Senators vote this week on President Trump's nominee for attorney general William Barr. Will he let the American people see the full Mueller report? We will talk to a Republican senator on the Judiciary Committee next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:17:19] POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: All right. Tonight is the night. The president delivers a high stakes speech, his first State of the Union Address before a divided Congress. Joining us now is Republican Senator John Kennedy of Louisiana, of

course, a member of the Senate Judiciary Committee.

Good morning, Senator.

SEN. JOHN KENNEDY (R), LOUISIANA: Good morning, Poppy.

HARLOW: So, the president will address the nation. Congress, tonight in the State of the Union Address before a divided Congress. Also after a bitter battle over even delivering the State of the Union Address.

What would your advice be to him tonight to most effectively unite the country?

KENNEDY: Well, I would advise the president to speak from the heart. I mean, we have a press release from the White House. We know the general topics but not the emphasis in which he's going to put on each topic.

If he has something new to say on border security and immigration, I hope he talks about that. We have to get that issue behind us. You know how I feel about it.

HARLOW: Yes.

KENNEDY: There are two issues on which we can all work. One is infrastructure. I'd like to see him talk about that.

The problem with infrastructure is we don't have a way to pay for it. I mean, we just don't. Everything we do now is with borrowed money. I would like him to talk about the cost of health insurance.

I think there is common ground there. I think that the Republicans and Democrats have more in common on the issue than they don't. If we don't do something about the cost of health insurance in this country, the voters are going to go medieval on us and they should.

We --

HARLOW: So --

KENNEDY: Go ahead.

HARLOW: I hear your point on infrastructure and health care, two critical issues to every American. On the issue of immigration and border security, it's very clear how you feel about the president if he does declare a national emergency. You have said it's not your preference.

KENNEDY: Right.

HARLOW: But what I think is interesting is there's been a growing chorus of Republican senators in the last 24 hours seeming to beg the president in public not to declare a national emergency for wall funding. Senate Majority Whip John Thune of South Dakota, quote: I hope they don't go down that path. Senator John Cornyn, a dangerous step, a serious constitutional question.

Senate Homeland Security Chairman Ron Johnson said it would erode constitutionality and Republican Senator Susan Collins of Maine calls it of dubious constitutionality. You are an attorney. A, do you believe it is of dubious constitutionality? And, B, do you share their concerns?

KENNEDY: A couple of points, Poppy. Number one, it's not my preferred choice. Number two, White House counsel's office has smart lawyers. My guess is they have researched it.

[08:20:00] I think the president probably does have the authority. It will be litigated.

Number three, I know a lot of -- look, it's not my preferred choice, but I don't think the world will spin off its axis if the president does it.

Now, some of my colleagues on the Senate, on both sides of the aisle, particularly Republicans are all atwitter about the fact that he might do it. But what I've learned in this place, talk is cheap. Let's see how they might vote. If the president does it, I'm willing to bet a lot of Republicans are saying it's a bad idea and he shouldn't do will vote to support him.

Now, I could be wrong. I'm going to vote to support him.

HARLOW: So, what will you do if the president does declare a national emergency?

KENNEDY: Oh, I will vote to support him.

HARLOW: OK, let's say that happens. Let's play that scenario, you support him. So, then, what happens? And we have heard it brought up by Senator Marco Rubio, for example. If a Democratic president were then to say climate change is a national emergency. I'm demanding X amount to fight climate change, or there is a mass shooting at a school, god forbid, I am demanding X amount of funds for gun control. Does that not just open the flood gates?

KENNEDY: Well, that could happen right now, whether the president exercises his power, which Congress gave him, by the way.

HARLOW: Would you support that?

KENNEDY: It depends on the issue. It depends on whether I thought it was a national emergency. I happen to agree with the president. I think we do have an emergency on the border.

I think 500,000 people at least -- we really don't know how many -- coming into our country without us knowing who they are.

HARLOW: And just to be clear, you say it's a crisis. Let's pull up the numbers. Did you think it was a crisis in 2016 when Republicans controlled both chambers of Congress and you had more undocumented workers crossing the border? Was it a crisis that you would have supported the president calling a national emergency for to fund?

KENNEDY: Yes and yes. As you know, Poppy, we didn't have control of the Senate. It takes 60 votes in the Senate to do anything. Even if you have a majority you have to have Democratic support. So, it's really not fair to say the Republicans had the control of the Senate. No. We didn't control 60 votes.

HARLOW: You had the majority in the Senate.

KENNEDY: The majority, right.

HARLOW: I want to move on to the attorney general nominee, William Barr. You will vote for him on Thursday.

KENNEDY: Yes.

HARLOW: Listen to your fellow senator, Democrat, Richard Blumenthal, express concern after meeting this week with Barr.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. RICHARD BLUMENTHAL (D), CONNECTICUT: He chose not to make the commitment that he would release the report to Congress and the American people. He declined to say he would not oppose a subpoena from a congressional committee for that report. He declined to say that he would permit Robert Mueller to testify, without blocking it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Does any of that give you pause, Senator?

KENNEDY: Well, yes and no, Poppy. I'm not trying to dodge your question.

Look, Richard is an accomplished lawyer and a great guy. I don't think it's any surprise that he's opposing Barr for attorney general because Richard opposes all of Trump's choices. That's his right. I'm not criticizing him.

My impression of Barr is this. He's at the point in his career where if you get angry at him or you don't like what he's doing, his attitude is, call somebody who cares.

I think he's really smart. He's kind of a law nerd. He's taught about the law.

He knows justice. He knows the FBI. He's going to do what he thinks is right. He's going to follow the law. Right now, the rules at FBI and justice say the report isn't released.

I think that Barr will probably find a way to release it and here's why. Number one, the American people have a right to know. And number two, it's going to leak anyway. All the discussion about should we make it public, it's going to leak. The only question is whether it leaks in tutu or it leaks in dribs and drabs. And I think the American people would be better off to have it just come out, here it is, unvarnished. Draw your own conclusions.

The problem with all of this is that there are too many people -- not you and John, but there are too many people in Washington, D.C. that think they are smarter and more virtuous than the American people. And they're not. The American people can figure this out if you show them the facts.

HARLOW: Good thing we are sitting in New York. We will be in Washington, D.C. tomorrow morning.

But before I go, quickly on that, you heard the end of Senator Blumenthal's statement which is that he's concerned that Barr would not say to him if Robert Mueller should testify before Congress stop blocking it.

[08:25:01] KENNEDY: Right.

HARLOW: Do you want Bob Mueller to testify before Congress once he's done with the report?

KENNEDY: It depends on whether I think we need to have him. I mean, I wouldn't mind hearing what he has to say. We've heard everything second hand and third hand now for a couple of years. I certainly wouldn't mind sitting down with Bob Mueller saying, what about this and why didn't you go there?

Now, he's a good prosecutor. And he's a very principled guy from my understanding. I don't know him. I don't know that he's going to answer a lot of the questions.

HARLOW: Senator John Kennedy of Louisiana, we appreciate you being with us on an important morning, thank you.

KENNEDY: Thanks, Poppy.

HARLOW: All right.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: All right. We are hours away from the president's State of the Union Address. White House Press Secretary Sarah Sanders joins us with some new information hopefully about what we'll see. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: Some people say -- some people say the president gets too much credit and too much blame for the economy.

Christine Romans is here with us, our chief business correspondent, with the state of the U.S. economy.

You know, that's true. Too much credit, too much blame.

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CHIEF BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: It is. This president takes all the credit and none of the blame.

END