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Active Shooter Situation in Illinois; City Official: 4 Police Officers, Multiple Civilians Struck After Shooting At Aurora Illinois Business; City Official: 4 Officers Who Were Shot Are Stable; Officials: Shooter "Apprehended" After Incident In Aurora, IL; WH: Trump Has Been Briefed On Shooting In Aurora, Illinois; Hospitals Multiple Patients From Active Shooter In Aurora, IL. Aired 4-4:30p ET

Aired February 15, 2019 - 16:00   ET



JOSH CAMPBELL, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Need a lot more details to figure out what officers do next and whether that person has actually been taken into custody.


Josh Campbell, thank you so much.

Everybody, thank you for your contributions.

Our breaking news continues right now.

"THE LEAD" with Pam Brown starts now.

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

PAMELA BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome to THE LEAD. I'm Pamela Brown, in for Jake Tapper.

Taking a live look here from our affiliate WGN of the site of an active shooting situation. This in our national lead, police sources confirming to CNN that there is an active shooter at this business in Aurora, Illinois, just outside of Chicago.

This is the Henry Pratt Company where the shooting is taking place. Police are telling people to stay away from that area. Video shows dozens of police running toward the building. This has been going on for about an hour or so. Multiple agencies have rushed to the scene, including the ATF, even most of the city's fire department.

And a nearby school district is on lockdown right now, as all of this unfolds. We're told a high school is right near there where the shooting is taking place.

And we're also told multiple patients are being rushed to two different hospitals. This is still an active situation. It is fluid. It's still unfolding.

I want to bring in CNN's Brynn Gingras for the latest -- Brynn. BRYNN GINGRAS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Pam, like you said, this is a

fluid situation.

What we can confirm, though, is we know an active shooter is -- it is an active shooter situation, I should say.

What is unclear right now, though, is what building this houses. Is it a manufacturing company? Is it a steel company? We just know it is in that facility that you're seeing on your screen in Aurora, Illinois. That's about an hour west of Chicago.

We also know that law enforcement, medical personnel are continuing to respond. We know that the ATF, the FBI, both from the Chicago bureaus, are headed to Aurora. We know that local police and sheriff's departments officers are there on the ground. We have seen officers sort of making ground on the street, streets there, going to that facility.

And, as you said, we know that there are hospitals in the area, two, to be specific, receiving patients. We don't have any idea about the extent of their injuries. We just know that they are receiving patients.

So, again, a lot of information that we're continuing to gather into our newsroom at this point, but an active shooter situation, and we will continue to get you more information.

BROWN: And, Brynn, we just heard from one of our affiliates an interview that they did with a witness who was in there when the shooting broke out. What did we learn?

GINGRAS: We honestly, Pam, I'm not going to lie to you. I didn't actually hear the witness because I'm just kind of here at the news desk trying to get information.

But it did sound like that...


BROWN: We're going to go to Josh Campbell. No worries at all, Brynn.

GINGRAS: Yes, thanks.

BROWN: This is active. You're trying to get the information, as I am.

I went to bring in CNN law enforcement analyst Josh Campbell. He's a former FBI special agent.

Josh, this has been going on for around an hour now. What is the challenge facing law enforcement as this continues to unfold?


When the initial call comes out, the law enforcement has a situation that they're dealing with. Obviously, they're going to surge resources. We're seeing that on our screen, just a significant response here by law enforcement, emergency services personnel on the scene

As you mentioned, a witness earlier that we heard from some of our affiliate coverage there starting to answer a lot of the questions that we have, first of which being what's going on inside, but then why this particular location, and was there some type of connection with the possible shooter in this facility?

We learned a couple things from a witness. And, again, this is one person. This hasn't been corroborated. I'm very conservative in the sense that I like to hear more from other witnesses.

But what this one person was recounting is that there was one individual that showed up with a pistol and opened fire inside. And what was interesting is that this one witness indicated to our affiliate that he had actually recognized the man, recognized the shooter who worked there.

So, again, that's telling. There are a lot of unanswered questions for us. And what I will say, the main thing I'm waiting for right now is some type of statement from police officers, from the police department, because...


BROWN: Hey, Josh, I'm going to interrupt you, because we are just getting new information in.

Aurora P.D. has put on their Facebook page that the shooter has been apprehended. Again, Aurora Police Department has put on their Facebook page that the shooter has been apprehended.

Your take, Josh.


Well, that's obviously a good sign.


CAMPBELL: In a large facility like this, whenever officers are responding, they don't know if there's a threat, where it is. And the fact that they're now able to confirm -- again, that actually answers the question I was trying to give you earlier, was, we need to hear from the cops.

And now we are. But, again, their work isn't done because the next step in any type of incident like this is, they want to have some type of confidence and comfort themselves that there's no additional threat, there are no additional victims.

This is a very large facility. And so if there were indeed individuals that were injured, they would be transported out, but then officers are going to have to clear this facility and make sure that there weren't other people that may have been fleeing, that may have been injured in some capacity, that had possibly tried to seek shelter.


And then hopefully we will be hearing from law enforcement officers in short order to give us an update on the full extent of what's going on there.


I want to bring in Charles Ramsey, former local police chief, on this latest news that we have coming in, that the shooting suspect has been apprehended.

But, Charles, that does not mean the work is done. Law enforcement has to determine whether this is the only person in that building that was part of the shooting, correct?

CHARLES RAMSEY, FORMER PHILADELPHIA POLICE COMMISSIONER: Yes, they're going to continue to search that entire facility, just to make sure.

I would assume you have some people that have sheltered in place. They obviously have to get to them. You may have wounded that have not yet been detected, and you have got a crime scene.

So, yes, their work is just starting. Actually, it's good that they have got an individual in custody, but, again, they can't take a chance on this being the only person involved. They're going to make sure that everything is thoroughly searched, they have located all people who are in there, attend to any wounded that are in there and maintain the scene itself.


And we are told that the hospital there, Mercy Medical Center and Rush Copley Medical Center, they have been receiving patients who were injured in the shooting at this valve company in Aurora, Illinois, just outside of Chicago.

I want to bring in retired FBI supervisory special agent James Gagliano.

James, we heard from a witness speaking to one of our affiliates who essentially said that he recognized the shooter, that this was one of his colleagues, someone that he recognized, and that the shooter was carrying a pistol.

Of course, this person also said, look, the shots were breaking out, I got a quick glance, and I had to run.

But what do you make of what we're learning from this one witness that has yet to be corroborated, we should note?

JAMES GAGLIANO, RETIRED FBI CHIEF OF STAFF: Well, firstly, Pam, outstanding news that the shooter has been apprehended.

Now, that doesn't mean the job is over. The first thing you -- were there any accomplices? Is anybody else involved in this? And law enforcement has to treat this as a conspiracy and not as a, hey, we have got the guy in custody, we're good to go.

The difficult part in this assessment -- I think Chief Ramsey could agree with me on this. The difficult part in tactical resolution is making the calculus on the scene in real time. Is this a hate crime? Is this somebody who has a dispute at work, a workplace violence issue? Is this a domestic incident?

And then once the law enforcement officers arrive on scene, there are three things that you quickly have to cycle through. Is this an active shooter that we need to move to and bring down and interdict as quickly as possible, or is this a barricaded subject where we can put up a perimeter and contain and negotiate, or is this a barricaded subject with hostages?

So those are the three things that law enforcement is trying to cycle through in the immediacy of these -- of these instances. So, most importantly, make sure that there's nobody else that is working with the shooter that they have apprehended right now, and then dealing with the people that were witnesses, finding out as much information as you can.

In the FBI, we tell people in these type of situations, run, hide, fight, and tell, in that order. So go to law enforcement and immediately share whatever information you have as far as the description of the subject, where other people may be and where any other wounded people might be at the time.

BROWN: And, again, even though that shooter was apprehended, like you said, this could still be an active situation. They haven't ruled out that there are more shooters.

But, Josh Campbell, you were in the FBI not long ago. I remember, in covering the FBI, they did compile a mass shooting data, paperwork about how common these shootings are, if it's more than one person. And, typically, if I'm not mistaken, Josh, in situations like this, most of the time in mass shootings, it is one individual, though they have to act as though there could be more, correct?

CAMPBELL: Yes, that's right, Pam.

It's usually one, but they're not going to hang their hat on that. This is part of an investigation now, that they're going to have to determine both -- if they're able to interview that subject, if this person is cooperative and then able to speak with officers, they are going to want to glean that information.

They're going to now dig into his life, his social media, his associates. We can expect to see possibly search warrants executed at his residence, again, try to determine, learn as much as they can about this one person, in order to determine whether this person actually acted alone.

And one thing that's also interesting from that study that you mentioned -- and this goes to what is very important for us as we cover these incidents -- is that once an affiliate from a news station shows up there on scene with this helicopter footage, that's off -- it's often after an incident already happened, after it already took place.

These things are often over in a matter of minutes. And so we continue to try to assess and analyze what we see based on some of this footage, but we can't mistake this police presence from what is actually going on inside.

As we mentioned earlier, though, just the sheer magnitude of this facility is going to require a lot of officers again to go through, to investigate, and then to talk to all the witnesses we spoke about.


This is what we're seeing on our television. What we're not seeing is what's going on behind the scenes. And that is really digging into this subject's life now in order to find a motive for what transpired here.

BROWN: So, just to add on what you just said, you said, normally, these things are open -- over in a matter of minutes.

But this went on, if I'm not mistaken, for around an hour. What do you make of that, Josh?

CAMPBELL: Yes, so there's a lot of unanswered questions here.

We don't know if officers were actually in communication, if they had identified and located the shooter. Again, it's a massive facility. So we don't know if this person was fleeing and attempting to find cover or attempting to flee to exit the building altogether.

We just don't know what his initial contact was what with law enforcement officers, whether they engaged him and then he surrendered. Sometimes, in these situations, we see the person want to go down. And they don't make it out.

In this case, with the word they're using, apprehended, that suggests at least that he's been taken alive and he's now in custody.

BROWN: Right.

CAMPBELL: And so, again, there's just so much that we don't know from the initial start of this incident, when the call came out, to now with the resolution.

And, again, we don't know if there was a lag time and when that person was actually cuffed and when the statement came out. But, again, all those details will be coming out. It's now incumbent on law enforcement to give the public that update, to let them know that there's no additional threat, and to really set the scene, provide some information on what had actually transpired.

BROWN: Exactly.

But, of course, they have to make sure there is no additional threat before doing that.

And I want to bring in Jonathan Wackrow, CNN law enforcement analyst and former Secret Service agent.

What are some of the big questions you have right now? We have learned, as we have been saying, the Aurora Police Department says the suspect has been apprehended. Presumably, he was apprehended alive. What are some of the big questions you have now moving forward, Jonathan?

JONATHAN WACKROW, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, first and foremost, yes, law enforcement is going to ascertain real fast whether or not there's any other danger to the public, whether in the facility or outside the facility.

It looks like that this could potentially be a classic case of workplace violence. Studies have shown from the National Threat Assessment Center that well over 60 percent of the time these incidents of workplace violence are as a result of a grievance towards somebody at that facility.

So, again, what I would want to know right now is, is the public, is anybody else in danger, and then start getting into the motive. Why did this occur? What happened? What was the evolutionary steps it took to have someone transcend into this violent act?

BROWN: Right.

And I just want to point out some new news that are coming in right now, a city official confirming to CNN that four police officers and multiple civilians have been struck. Again, four police officers, multiple civilian struck.

And we also know that several patients have gone to the local hospitals there in the area near this facility.

Are you surprised, given that, that the suspect is alive? Again, presumably, they're saying he was apprehended. Are you surprised?

WACKROW: Well, listen, I don't know all the facts in this case.

But what it does show, by just the sheer nature that four law enforcement officers are now injured, just speaks to the dangerous and very dynamic situation that these officers have to face.

Every single time that bell rings that there's a potential active shooter, these guys are rushing into danger. And their primary focus in an active shooter situation is to stop that threat. They are putting themselves between the threat and the public to prevent further harm.

Again, statistics have shown that first interaction with law enforcement is going to solve that problem well over 75 percent of the time by the fact that either that individual is either going to be taken into custody or he's going to be shot by the responding police officers. So, unfortunately, we have four members of uniform service are

injured. And so right now we have four heroes that we need to be looking at.

BROWN: OK, and I want in Dimitri Roberts now, former Chicago P.D. and CNN law enforcement analyst.

Thank you for coming on.

So, a witness spoke to affiliate WLS. And, again, we have not corroborated this information. But the witness who was in the building when the shooting broke out told our affiliate WLS that the suspected gunman was carrying a pistol equipped with a green laser.

The witness went on to say that he knows the man, and the shooter is a co-worker of his at that building.

As a former investigator, what would you do with that information? What would that tell you and how would you use it moving forward?

DIMITRI ROBERTS, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, first and foremost, before we go any further, let's acknowledge the fact that we have -- as was stated before, we have four officers that have been injured that put themselves in between the public and this threat.

So our thoughts and prayers go out to their family and their friends and their loved ones. And we hope that they're all OK. What is going to happen with that first information is really pretty simple. It is, we have to verify the facts over time. So, there's going to be a lot of information pouring into law enforcement.


Those -- that information is going to be recorded and then verified over time, and helped to use -- used to build a case towards both prosecution and finding out if this situation was part of a bigger a plan, a bigger plot. If there's other people involved.

The fact that there were devices or other pieces of weaponry were used, if not surprising, especially given this side at facility. But again, I think that's the more people come out with more information, was only going to help law enforcement to sort this out in the long run. And we're glad to have to have trusted partners that are provide that information to what early on is very helpful.

BROWN: And Dimitri, you used to be with Chicago PD, you know the area. What can you tell us about this area? We were told that a high school is nearby, this is just also in Chicago. What other light can you shed on the area here that we're looking at them in this footage?

ROBERTS: Well as in most Chicago suburbs, they're mostly industrial areas with large facilities like you see there, looks like this is a logistics type facility. And they -- as Josh stated earlier, these are complex situation, very, very difficult for law enforcement to go into a clear and a pretty rapid into sync way. So, I mean the fact that their schools and other type of facilities that are close is surprising.

So again, I think what law enforcement is thinking about right now is, is this just a one off situation, is this somebody that had much broader plan? Are there other facilities to include civilians off targets like school, and other places where there are civilians that maybe at risk and both the FBI and local law enforcement are taken all these thing into consideration as we speak.

BROWN: OK, we're just getting to new information and that the four police officers that we previously reported were struck in the shooting are stable. So we are told that the four police officers are stable. Multiple patients are being treated at local hospitals, Mercy Medical Center, Rush Copley Medical Center. I want to bring back Chief Ramsey, because Chief you have been on the ground dealing with other shootings in the past. What would you be doing right now that the local police department says that the shooter has been apprehended? What is going on, on the ground right now?

CHARLES RAMSEY, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well again, the officers are still clearing the building, they're attending to any wounded or evacuating any wounded that may be there. They're trying to gather people who were there, witnesses, because, you know, you got to -- you can't lose your witnesses during a situation like this. So there's a lot going on right now. We don't know the nature and extent of injuries of individuals now, that includes the suspect, just because he's in custody does not mean that person wasn't wounded.

But there is still a lot of information that's going to have to be kind of filtered through, so that we can make it -- that information we can make public -- we make public. So, right now, there's an off -- a lot of activity going on. And it will be a while before you really start to get up a real clear picture on what actually took place. But one thing I would like to say, if this turns out to be a disgruntled employee he very well may have had specific targets that he was looking for. And that just going through just randomly shooting people. Again, we don't know any of that. But --

BROWN: OK, what is --

RAMSEY: -- these are all things you're going to have to go through.

BROWN: Thank you Chief Ramsey. Of course one of the challenges in fluid (ph) situations like this is we don't have a lot of facts we're working with. But Josh Campbell, we are told that four police officers, multiple civilians were struck. The four officers are stable. The suspect has been apprehended though police have not said that there is not an ongoing threat. So that is still something we're waiting to hear from police. Would you consider this facility, whereof the shooting break out, the Henry Pratt Company, a valve company? Would you consider a place like this a soft target, Josh?

JOSH CAMPBELL, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Yes. So just based on some of the visuals that we've seen, some of the graphics, our research team has been looking at, you know, the street maps and a lot of it, the aerial imagery that see. It doesn't appears though that there is a, you know, robust external perimeter security. Again, we don't know what the -- the actual -- yes ingress, egress security mechanisms in place where to actually get in the building. But if this was someone who was supposed to be there, then none of that really matters. If this is end up being a work place shooting, because if the person had access, then even if there was -- you know, there were layers of security in place, that person wouldn't be able to bypass. But that will be all part of that investigation.

We'll also need additional information though, we're hearing about the number of officers but also the number of victims from inside the facility that weren't part of law enforcement in order to, you know, determine the full magnitude and extent of this. I will say that, you know, right now, you see this large police presence, all of these different agencies. Once the all clear it goes out, that the person has been apprehended, they all have additional resources that they bring to the table.

For example their partners with ATF who we heard from earlier responding to the scene. They will be critical in the situations, they're the tracking the firearm that was used in order to determine, you know, what the background with that particular device was. You'll have members of the FBI that are, you know, bring in their resources. Doing checks with law enforcement around the country.

[16:20:12] Again law enforcement want to know is this someone that was known to them. We've seen incidence in the past where a law enforcement, you know, a person known to law enforcement thing goes on to clear other act. That's something that they want to rule out, so that's called going on behind the scenes. Just a multi-facetted investigation beyond just what we're seeing on the screen right now that's taking place. And then the last part is the subject himself. As we mentioned, he is in custody. Based on the -- the verbose that we saw from the authorities will be interesting in, you know, for us to know whether or not he is actually cooperating, whether he is proud of what he did here. And here's talking to law enforcement and telling in that story, or that something that they're going to --

BROWN: Right.

CAMPBELL: -- have to find out in other ways, at all be part of that investigation.

BROWN: And again, we don't know if there's an ongoing threat. Police have not said that. But even if the threat is over again, we don't know, there is still the aftermath. Seem ugly on it, again, we're told four police officers, multiple civilians struck. But its unclear if these are just entries or if there are fatalities, we're waiting to hear more from officials there on the ground.

Now, as I mentioned earlier James, one of the witnesses told affiliate WLS that the suspected gunman was carrying a pistol equipped with a green laser. Now we should know we have not (INAUDIBLE) this with this one witness said. And presumably law enforcer went to interview multiple witnesses taken a full account. But what do you make of that? A pistol equipped with a green laser James?

JAMES GAGLIANO, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well and not knowing the exact details I assume it's probably an end point, which is a quick way to pick up a target. And we understand the news we have right now is that it was, it was a handgun.

Look Pam, we're a month and a half into this year, 2019. There have been 16 police officers killed in the line of duty, seven by assailant gunfire. Now we know that four officers have been struck. There are multiple civilian casualties as well. And I think one of the things we learned going through so many of these in the last couple years is early reports are often erroneous in these situations. So we need to be patient, find out what the casualty count is. And law enforcement is not going to threat this as a OK guys, we're done here, let's go ahead and celebrate. Let's get everybody to the hospital and we can stand the scene down. They've got to treat this like there might be other coconspirators that were involved with the person that is in custody right now.

Very important for law enforcement not to let their guard down, maintain their perimeters, contain the site, keep the public on the outside of this. And talk to any potential witnesses about things that they might have seen that could lead them to other people or other threats as in improvising explosive devices or other weapons it maybe on the scene.

BROWN: All right. I want to bring in my colleague Shimon Prokupecz for more information here. Again, we're learning that four police officers were struck. They were stable. Multiple civilians struck. What more are you learning Shimon?

SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN CRIME & JUSTICE REPORTER: Yes, so what appear with these officers that have been shot, if they intercepted or the shooter and that would appear how they were injured. It's striking to me looking on the monitor here that the ambulars, all these ambulance is they're not doing anything right. We don't see people leaving the scene. We don't see victims being transported. That could be a very good sign or that could be a very bad sign. Obviously there have been a lot of people injured here. We're told, we don't exact numbers yet, I think authorities are still trying to get a handle on exactly how many people have been injured. But, you know, the four officers injured obviously it tells you that this is probably quite a gunfight here for the officers and we'll see.

I think what we're hearing from our law enforcement sources, is that they're trying to get a handle of what was going on here. We've heard witnesses say that this -- that at least one person we heard say that he knows the shooter. A co-worker, he described the shooting as much as he was able to before he run out. So that is helpful to law enforcement, because they know who they're dealing with. It's not a terrorism attack, it's -- would appear right now to be workplace violence. But nonetheless, I think but right now, I think law enforcement just wants to get a handle on the scene trying to figure out how many people, how many victims they have here.

BROWN: And that's always, you know, that they're trying to determine whether there is an ongoing threat and also like you said, deal with the aftermath, how many victims are there. This went on remind they're saying in this, for about an hour based on our latest information. And again its fluid, we've covered unfortunately a lot of mass shootings Shimon, does that seem like a long time to you?

PROKUPECZ: Yes. And so certainly when you see in these towns, these kinds of shootings. It always takes a while for us to sometimes to learn information. And the longer it goes, sometimes the worse it is. And, you know, because it some times indicates that they're still working through the scene trying to figure out exactly how many victims there are. That tends to happen in these kinds of situations too.

The fact that they were calling for more resources and the fact that they're -- that all these officers ran from the station house to the scene tells you, you're probably dealing with a pretty big scene, a big gun fight.

[16:25:10] So it looks like a really big area. So, you know, we don't know the gun may have been shooting in several different locations, doesn't necessarily mean that they -- that it was contained to one area of this location.

So again, obviously a lot we don't know, but it is -- it tells you one thing, certainly, when you look at the scene and the officers are standing around and that their ambulances are not moving anyone. That at least for now it appears that the scene would be contained. And then police seemed to think that they have this under control.

So that is one piece of good news. But now we're just waiting for find out exactly how many victims we have here. In any scene like, when you have this many of -- number of officer shot. Tells it is very telling in terms of what kind of scene this was, what the officers faced when they went in and, you know, I'm sure they responded to 911 calls. They went in and probably engaged the shooter almost immediately. It's very rare when you have these kinds of scenes. Where you have so many police officers shot at one location. So that tells you something right there.

BROWN: OK, I want to go to Chief Ramsey again, because we have learned as we've been talking about Aurora PD said that the -- the suspect, the gunman in this case has been apprehended, its presumably that means he is still alive. So tell us what will happen now in terms of investigators trying to build the case against the suspected gunman. Is that already -- is that work already underway?

RAMSEY: Yes. Sure. It's already under way. I'm sure there's going to be -- I know there's a lot of work that has to be done. You've got interview witnesses. They'll have to Mirandize the individual and take statements from his as well. They need to find out how did he get there, did he drive, they'll find out where we lives, there'll be search warrants that will be in the process of obtaining.

So this is just the beginning, there's an awful lot of work that has to be done. And again, they'll be bringing in there resource to process this scene. You don't know whether or not you have any fatal injuries with people still there on the scene or not. But right now we just don't have a lot of information. But the information is coming in really points to a person who apparently was (INAUDIBLE) that for some reason. And it must have been one heck of a shoot out to have this many injuries.

BROWN: And we're just learning that President Trump has been briefed, his monitoring the situation according to Press Secretary Sarah Sanders. But Chief Ramsey, one of the witnesses spoke to our affiliates WLS and said that he did recognize this person. It was someone --


BROWN: -- he work with. And you had that work of interview and witnesses may well be already underway. But how reliable are witnesses in situations like this where its chaotic, where its fast moving, where they're really trying to run for their lives?

RAMSEY: Well, that's why you have to interview all of the witnesses. But again, you know, eye witnesses are not always 100% accurate. But still you take statements, you interview, you get a sense for what took place. There could be video insight of the premise. I don't know the answer to any of that, but you certainly wan to interview people and get as much information as possible. But this person said he saw an individual that he worked with, so he knew him. So he's not like he was trying identify a stranger. And we'll see as this begins to unfold. More and more information is going to start to come out now --

BROWN: Right.

RAMSEY: -- that the situation apparently has been at least contained.

BROWN: That's right. And we're just looking here at live footage from WGN. We had seen about five ambulances earlier in the footage. You see tactical teams there. They are the five ambulances. Josh, as you look at these live pictures, assuming that you can see them where you are right now. What does this tell you about the state of the situation there on the ground?

CAMPBELL: Yes. So when these incidents happened and you get some type of tactical resolution, as we mentioned it doesn't mean investigation is over. And, you know, these are resources are there in place for a purpose. And that is if there are additional victims that they find, and obviously they will need to be transported. We mentioned the large nature of this area, just the complex itself is very large. And so again they'll be going through, that's what we don't see right now, its what's happening behind the scenes inside that facility going through floor by floor in order to ensure there are no victims.

And so all of these resources are there. Just in case, you do find another victim, we have a number of tactical assets that are there in place. Again, you know, the one question, this person act alone or there others until they actually clear it. And have that sense of confidence and comfort that there are no additional people involved, then those resources are going to remain on station. And we'll continue to see that.

And again, you know, one thing that -- we're talking about witness testimony and there somebody interviews that we saw, you know, yes as I mention, I'm very conservative because I always want to hear from more people. I want to know, you know, what people saw. And again that's what law enforcement officers will be doing.

[16:30:02] Though no fault of their own, the witness, whenever they see something, especially in an emergent situation, where stress hormones are coursing through your veins, where you have tunnel vision. Again, people, you know, sometimes see things possibly, you know, differently in a way that it happen.