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Beto O'Rourke Testing Presidential Waters in Chicago; Amy Klobuchar Talks Gun Control on Stump; Kamala Harris Hosts Town Hall in South Carolina; Interview with Democratic Presidential Candidate John Delaney; New Details on Aurora Shooting; Prosecutors Say They Have Evidence of Roger Stone Communicating Directly with WikiLeaks; White House Press Secretary Sarah Sanders Interviewed by Special Counsel; Prosecutors Say Paul Manafort's Crime So Bad Should Get 20 Years in Prison; CNN Fact-Checks Trump's Emergency Declaration/Wall Speech; U.S. Warns American to Avoid Haiti as Protests, Violence Grip Country; Catholic Cardinal Theodore McCarrick Expelled after Vatican Trial Finds Him Guilty of Sex Abuse. Aired 3-4p ET

Aired February 16, 2019 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:00:08] ANA CABRERA, CNN ANCHOR: It's 3:00 eastern, noon out west. I'm Ana Cabrera, in New York. Thanks for being with me. You are live in the CNN NEWSROOM this weekend.

The Democrats who want to be the president of the United States, they're out on the campaign trail this weekend in the early voting states rallying their supporters, meeting people, trying to size up the candidates. They're in full speed campaign mode because, believe it or not, primary season fully upon us now. And the field is getting crowded. Already, the first televised debate is set for June.

Here are some of the candidates and their personal appearances scheduled for today. The people of New Hampshire getting particular attention as the nation's first primary state. CNN is live at several of these events right now. Stay with us. You will see them and the candidates when they come into full view at their events.

Also on the road today and for different reasons, Former Vice President Joe Biden. He is talking at a global security conference in Germany but he is still taking questions about whether he will join that Democratic field and run for president again.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: No, I haven't reached a decision. I'm in that process of doing that. And I will, in the near term, let everyone know what that decision is.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: One thing dominating the campaign conversations this weekend already, President Trump and his declaration of a national emergency to fund the construction of a southern border wall. Now, many of the Democratic hopefuls are sitting lawmakers who will be part of the congressional or the legal challenges to the president's plan.

And where's President Trump today? In Florida. He and the first lady arrived in West Palm Beach last night, just hours after insisting that the nation is being actively and perilously invaded by drug, gangs, and human traffickers. He played a round of golf this morning.

Now Beto O'Rourke, testing the 2020 waters in Chicago. The former Texas congressman speaking at the U.S. Hispanic Scholarship Leadership Institute.

Let's get to CNN's Leyla Santiago is in Chicago.

Leyla, what did O'Rourke have to say this afternoon?

LEYLA SANTIAGO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: We are right now in the luncheon of the U.S. Hispanic Leadership Conference, and Beto O'Rourke is off here in the distance, and not surprisingly, taking selfies with some supporters. This is a group that's a young Latino group. Most people here from 18 to 35, so a lot of potential young voters here.

This is also a place that is about an hour east of Aurora, Illinois, where we had that shooting yesterday. So I had a chance to talk to Beto O'Rourke as he was coming in here, and I asked him, given how close we are to Aurora, what his thoughts are, specifically about gun control. Listen to what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BETO O'ROURKE, (D), FORMER CONGRESSMAN & FORMER TEXAS SENATE CANDIDATE: First of all, just a real tragedy for the families, for the community, for the co-workers there. They're in my thoughts. In our prayers. And also, they're going to be in the actions that we take going forward to make sure that we do more to save more lives and do everything we can to support those families who have lost so much.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANTIAGO: OK, so the big question, well, actually, a few big questions here. One, will be what is he going to talk about on stage? If it resembles anything like what he has talked about over the last few days, and who this audience is, likely going to talk about immigration. He will likely address DREAMers here.

And already, other speakers have talked about the power of the Latino vote. Julian Castro was here yesterday as well. He talked about issues that are important to him as well.

But that other big question that we're talking about, is he going to run for a bid for the White House? And that's something in the last 24 hours he addressed yesterday, in Wisconsin. He says he is still thinking about it. Of course, during the Oprah interview, he also said that he gave himself a time line of having a decision by the end of the month.

So we're still waiting and seeing. We're listening to what he is saying. But we all know that actions speak louder than words. And if you go by his actions, he is certainly acting like he's reaching out to young voters, trying to tap into that Obama coalition. Going to Wisconsin, yesterday, and speaking to colleges there. And now, he is here, addressing the Latino community in Chicago -- Ana?

CABRERA: And earlier this week, taking on the president at the border with competing events when the president was there rallying his supporters for the border wall.

Leyla Santiago, again, traveling with Beto O'Rourke this week. Thank you for that reporting.

Now, I want to bring in CNN's Suzanne Malveaux, in Wisconsin, where Senator Amy Klobuchar spoke a short time ago.

Suzanne, the deadly shooting in nearby Illinois yesterday, getting strong reaction from Klobuchar on the campaign trail today. The gunman shooting and killing five people and injuring five others before law enforcement ended his life.

What did Klobuchar have to say?

[15:05:07] SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Sure, Ana. This is something that everybody is talking about. And of course, she offered her condolences about that incident. And she brought up a very good story, an interesting story. This is Eau Claire, Wisconsin, a bike and a coffee shop. People love her here in Wisconsin. Very much a state that Democrats felt they missed out when Trump won by 1 percent over Hillary Clinton, who did not spend any time here during the general election campaign. So very important that she was here today.

But she weighed in and she said she had this meeting with the president, and with Republicans. This was after the Parkland shooting. And she had her own bill, legislation, addressing domestic violence. And this is the one, you might recall, because it was before all of the cameras and the president was actually accusing fellow Republicans of being afraid of being scared of the NRA. And it sounded like he was very much in line with a lot of the Democratic proposals when it comes to gun control.

And here is how Senator Klobuchar characterized this very unique meeting that she had.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. AMY KLOBUCHAR, (D), MINNESOTA: It is time to do something about, by the way, after the tragedy what we saw happen in Aurora, Illinois, yesterday, it is time to put sensible gun legislation in place.

(CHEERING)

KLOBUCHAR: I actually sat across from the president at that meeting, right, because I had a bill, a bipartisan bill, involving domestic violence. I sat across from him and I counted nine times he said he was for universal background checks.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MALVEAUX: Well, Ana, that did not happen and Klobuchar said she was quite discouraged by that. She told the president, she said that 6,000 women over the course of 11 years are killed by their partner, by having been shot by their partner, more than those who gave up their lives, soldiers in Afghanistan and as well as Iraq. And the president seemed to have felt that story and was on board. Of course, that did not happen afterwards. He did support something that was much more narrow and modest in scope when it comes to actually background checks and school safety. And that is one of the issues that she's very strongly supporting, and fighting for here, to push that even harder. And it is something she feels, she says she is at least hopeful that she can arrive with some sort of compromise with Republicans on the other side. But as you know, Ana, this is something that administration after administration really goes nowhere, or very little, not that far at all. And so she is trying to be pragmatic, she is trying to go ahead and introduce herself and her brand as someone who is working across the aisle. But this is one of those very difficult issues that just might not gain traction -- Ana?

CABRERA: And something obviously that is a bit of a dance, where she's from, and where she's talking to voters. Because Eau Claire, Wisconsin -- my mom grew up near there -- it is a rural area of Wisconsin, a lot of hunters, people who value their gun rights.

So Suzanne Malveaux, we appreciate you bringing her message today.

Let's go to South Carolina. And California Senator Kamala Harris hosting a town hall there today. Let's listen in.

(APPLAUSE)

SEN. KAMALA HARRIS, (D), CALIFORNIA: We are looking at an administration that has a policy of taking babies from their fathers and mothers at the border, that is not about border security, that is a human rights violation.

(CHEERING)

HARRIS: That does not represent justice in America.

(APPLAUSE)

HARRIS: Let's speak the truth. When we're looking at a system where one of the most imminent threats to us, as human beings, is climate change --

(CHEERING)

HARRIS: -- yet there are those who are trying to get us to buy science fiction instead of science fact.

(CHEERING)

HARRIS: Let's talk about truth and justice in our country in a way that we recognize, one of the most important and fundamental truths about who we are, as Americans, and that truth is this, the vast majority of us have so much more in common than what separates us.

(CHEERING)

HARRIS: Let's keep that.

(CHEERING)

CABRERA: Kamala Harris, speaking just moments ago, there in South Carolina.

So here we are. The 2020 Democratic race for the White House, seemingly gets more crowded, and more diverse every single hour. You might not know the name, but the very first Democrat to announce his 2020 bid for the presidency, John Delaney. He made his announcement back in July of 2017. You heard that right, about a year and a half ago. He is a former three-term Maryland congressman. And he joins us now.

Great to have you with us in person in the studio.

[15:10:11] JOHN DELANEY, (D), FORMER MARYLAND CONGRESSMAN & PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Great to be here, Ana.

CABRERA: Thank you so much.

So four high-profile 2020 Democrats had to vote on this spending bill, close to 48 hours ago. It ultimately passed even those these four voted against it. Luckily we're not in a shutdown. Luckily it passed. You can see them there, Senator Kirsten Gillibrand, Cory Booker, Elizabeth Warren, Kamala Harris.

You were a sitting member of Congress until a few weeks ago. Would you have voted for or against the spending bill?

DELANEY: I would have likely voted for it. I think people worked in a good-minded way to get it done and keep the government open and I think that's really important. I think we have to be getting things done. And I think when we had a conference committee where Democrats and Republicans worked hard on a compromise to keep the government open and do something reasonably sensible around border security, you know, I think that makes good sense.

CABRERA: When you talk about being reasonably sensible. I know you have advocated for protections for DREAMers.

DELANEY: Absolutely.

CABRERA: That did not include it.

DELANEY: I was disappointed about that.

CABRERA: You're disappointed about that. Did Democrats miss an opportunity? That was on the negotiating table back in December during the shutdown. The president had included that in his proposal, a three-year extension. DELANEY: I think we missed an opportunity to do it. There's 1.8

million DREAMers in our country. These are people who did nothing wrong. And I think they go to bed every night worrying about whether they're going to get deported the next day.

CABRERA: You still would have voted for, this even though it didn't include those protections.

DELANEY: Right, because the alternative is to close the government down? I represent over 100,000 current and former federal workers. I was down with Jose Andres with his food kitchen feeding these people. I wouldn't want the government to shut down again. And there was nothing terribly unreasonable in this bill. So, yes, I think as a member of Congress you have to actually come together and find solutions. Sometimes that involve compromise

But we have to start getting things done and moving forward.

CABRERA: Democrats didn't get they, the president didn't get all of the money he wanted for the border wall --

DELANEY: Right.

CABRERA: -- so he declared a national emergency to fund the border wall. We know Democrats will plan to challenge.

(CROSSTALK)

CABRERA: Here is Nancy Pelosi. Listen

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. NANCY PELOSI, (D-CA), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: If you want to talk about a national emergency, let's talk about today, the one-year anniversary of another manifestation of the epidemic of gun violence in America. That's a national emergency. Why don't you declare that emergency, Mr. President? I wish you would. But a Democratic president can do that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: If you were president, would you declare a national emergency over gun violence or what about climate change?

DELANEY: Listen, I think what the president just did -- first of all, I think this is maybe the greatest offense he's done against our Constitution, right, what he did. I mean, the president has done a lot of things I disagree with but to declare a national emergency over something that is clearly under the discretion of Congress, which is funding decisions, right after we had a debate about it -- because that's what the Congress did, the Congress engaged in a debate over border security. So he is disregarding the Congress, and in that regard, disregarding the Constitution. So I just think what the president did is terrible. And I think --

(CROSSTALK) CABRERA: What would you do if you were president? Is there something right now -- Nancy Pelosi brought up gun control, gun violence. And other people have thrown out climate change. Are any of those national emergencies that would lead you to take this kind of action?

DELANEY: I would want to do whatever I could under legitimate presidential executive authority to make a difference against climate change and to make a difference against the horrible gun violence issue we have in this country.

CABRERA: Let me ask you about climate change. Because there were obvious proposals announced just in the last week or so. The Green New Deal

DELANEY: Yes, yes.

CABRERA: A lot of talk about that. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, the freshman Democrat, also in the Senate, Ed Markey joining her in this proposal. Do you agree with their plan and just the climate proposals we've heard in general?

DELANEY: I think their plan is a step back. So I think climate is a huge issue. It's been one of the singular issues I've focused on in the Congress. And last Congress, I introduced a bipartisan carbon tax bill to prove that we can actually build the kind of coalition we need to get something big done on climate change. A carbon tax, my bill, has been modeled to reduce carbon emissions by over 90 percent. And it is bipartisan. All of the great things we've ever done in this country, if you look back across time is, are when we come together with coalitions of people to get something done.

What I will do as president, in my first year in office, is get a large bipartisan carbon tax bill passed in the Congress of the United States. And that will be a big step forward on climate. We are running out of time on climate. This is not like other issues. We can't wait to act on it. We have to get something done right away.

The problem I have with the Green New Deal is it lays out unrealistic expectations, and it ties action on climate change to health care, things like universal-based income, rebuilding all of the structures in the United States of America over 10 years, getting us to a place in 10 years where there's zero carbon emissions, which all of the experts have said is impossible.

[15:15:09] CABRERA: You sounded a little like Howard Schultz and Michael Bloomberg, it's impractical.

DELANEY: Well, well it -- impractical is one word, impossible. When John F. Kennedy we should go to the moon, he didn't say Saturn. He sat down with scientists, and he said, what is doable. What is aspirational but what is doable? That's how you rally the American people around something big. What is doable in this country is to get to zero carbon emission by 2050. The way you get there is you get a carbon tax bill passed right away, like the proposal I put forward that has bipartisan support. And then what we have to do -- CABRERA: There is pushback on the carbon tax. I don't want to get too hung up here. Critics of the carbon tax idea will say it burdens energy and industry and could really hurt lower-income households because of the costs being passed on to consumers.

DELANEY: But we solved that problem. But we solved that problem. What we do with our bill, and that's why it has so much support, is we take 100 percent of the revenue generated by the carbon tax and put it in a lock box and then we dividend it back to the American people, every penny.

CABRERA: OK.

DELANEY: And we structure the dividend to be progressive. So the carbon tax is regressive, but the dividend is structured to be aggressive. The bill was modelled to put more money in the pockets of hard-working Americans.

CABRERA: I appreciate you being specific on what your climate change proposal --

DELANEY: It matters.

CABRERA: -- would be. It does matter. And that's what voters will have to decide on what they want.

Let me move on because we're talking about just how diverse the Democratic field is becoming.

DELANEY: Yes.

CABRERA: When you look at all of the women in the race, the variety of ethnicities represented now in the Democratic contenders as we put up the map there. As you know, the Democratic voters in the base becoming more diverse. The country is becoming more diverse.

DELANEY: Absolutely.

CABRERA: Does being a white man put you at a disadvantage?

DELANEY: I think what has happened to our Democratic Party in the country is we have become much more diverse, meaning we represent the American people. So I think if I would have run 30, 40 years ago as president, being a white man would have been an advantage. The way I think of it now is we're all on a level playing field. And isn't the way it should be?

CABRERA: Yes.

DELANEY: Because that is really where we've come to. And I think that's great. Our party represents the American people. And I don't have any advantage running for president as a white man, which I would have across history. Right? So the way I look at it right now is I think the Democratic Party voters are going to elect the person who they think is the best leader. And they're not going to think about all of this other stuff. They're going to look at the person, figure out what is in their heart and what is in their head, and who do they think can lead our country the best. And that's how I think about it.

CABRERA: John Delaney, 2020 presidential candidate, former Maryland Congressman, thanks for coming in.

DELANEY: Thank you.

CABRERA: Nice to meet you in person.

As we try to help you get all you want to know about the 2020 candidate, tune in Monday night. Amy Klobuchar will join New Hampshire voters to take their questions and discuss what is at stake for the future. Don Lemon moderates a CNN presidential town hall, Monday night at 10:00 p.m. Eastern, only on CNN.

New details from Aurora, Illinois, where a gunman opened fire after learning he had been let go from his job.

Plus, violent unrest sweeping across Haiti this week and sparking riots and leaving tourists and missionaries trapped. CNN will take you live to the capital.

And tonight, at 7:00 Eastern, a day after Colin Kaepernick's surprise settlement with the NFL, his lawyer speaks exclusively to us here at CNN.

You're live in the CNN NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:22:39] CABRERA: We have new details about the deadly shooting at a manufacturing plant outside Chicago. Police say the 45-year-old shooter was an employee and he showed up to work armed with a gun and opened fire after learning he had been let go from his job. Authorities say he shot and killed five of his co-workers. Six police officers were also injured.

CNN's Scott McLean joins us now from Aurora, Illinois.

Scott, police have identified the five victims killed in this shooting, one was a student intern, we've learned. What else can you tell us about them?

SCOTT MCLEAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Ana. We now have names to match the five victims. One other employee was also shot. But we know that two of those victims worked in Human Resources. One was the manager, and as you mentioned, another was the H.R. intern. And believe it or not, this person's name is Trevor Wehner. His first day on the job at Henry Pratt. He was scheduled to graduate in May. Three others were also killed, the mold operator, a forklift operator, and the plant manager as well. It's not clear whether these were random or targeted.

But what we do know is that the suspect here, Gary Martin, 45-year-old man, he was called in for a meeting because he was fired that day. And police say that after he found out the news, he opened fire. The chief, the police chief here suspects that he may have known, or he may have had an inkling that he was going to get fired because he brought with him several magazines worth of ammunition for his handgun -- Ana?

CABRERA: About 90 minutes passed between when the first 911 calls came in and when the suspect was killed. Do we have any more details about what unfolded during that time?

MCLEAN: Yes. So this is a 29,000-square-foot facility. It is absolutely massive. So you can imagine industrial shelving, you can imagine machinery, a lot of places to hide. So after police were hit with that initial wave of gunfire, five officers were actually hit, the suspect retreated into that building. And so there were SWAT teams going in. There were all kinds of teams going in to get victims and pull them out. And it took a long time for law enforcement to work their way through the building. In the end, they found the suspect in a machine shop in the back where he appeared to be waiting for law enforcement -- Ana.

CABRERA: This wasn't the gunman's first run-in with the law, right? He had a history of arrests.

[15:24:52] MCLEAN: He had six arrests with the Aurora police alone. He also had one felony dating back to the 1990s in Mississippi. And so the question is, how was this man allowed to have a gun. Well, it turns out, in 2014, he actually applied for a gun license in the state of Illinois and he was granted it. It was only when he applied for a concealed carry permit that his fingerprints went through a national database and they found that felony conviction and revoked it. What happens next is a bit of a bureaucratic process that failed in this case. The state police sent him a letter -- they've confirmed that they sent him a letter -- saying your rights to own a weapon have been revoked. What is unclear at this point is whether that same letter or that same notice got to the local police, whose job it was to enforce that revocation of rights and actually seize that weapon if he didn't turn it over. Because clearly, five years later, he still had that gun. And now, we have the situation that we're in right now with some pretty serious consequences -- Ana?

CABRERA: A tragedy.

Scott McLean, from Aurora, Illinois, thank you.

For the first time, prosecutors say they have the evidence of Roger Stone communicating directly with WikiLeaks. What this means for the Russia investigation.

You're live in the CNN NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:30:49] ANA CABRERA, CNN ANCHOR: From a slow drip to a gush of details from Special Counsel Robert Mueller's Russia investigation, prosecutors say for the first time they have proof Roger Stone, a long-time Trump associate, communicated with WikiLeaks during the 2016 campaign. Now, prosecutors say Stone wanted to know what hackers had stolen from the Democratic Party, and how it might help Trump's campaign.

Other details we learned, White House press secretary, Sarah Sanders, was interviewed by the special counsel last year.

And Mueller's office thinks Trump's former Campaign Chairman Paul Manafort's financial crimes were so severe, he probably should spend upwards of 20 years in prison.

Joining us now, CNN law enforcement analyst, Josh Campbell, a former FBI supervisory special agent. Also with us -- he is also a CNN legal analyst, by the way, and a former federal prosecutor, Shan Wu, joining us as well.

Thanks, guys.

Josh, let me start with you. Just how important is this link, do you think, between Roger Stone and WikiLeaks?

JOSH CAMPBELL, CNN LAW ENFROCEMENT ANALYST: Well it is very important in the sense that this gets at the heart of what Robert Mueller is looking at, his mandate, and to determine whether there was coordination between the Trump campaign and Russia. And going back to 2016, this was the major focus, the intrusion in the Democratic National Committee and weaponizing these e-mails in order to hurt Hillary Clinton and help Donald Trump. The question here is whether Roger Stone, who was in coordination in talking with WikiLeaks, whether he knew in fact that he was talking to Russians and that that was part of the effort. That's not included in the latest filings. But that remains to be seen. We will have to wait and see what Robert Mueller has next.

CABRERA: Shan, Stone has admitted to brief exchanges, text messages with WikiLeaks, and a hacker known as Guccifer 2.0, over Twitter, but he says he had no knowledge of hacked e-mails. You're a defense attorney. How solid is the defense?

SHAN WU, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: It is solid enough, because they don't have anything to contradict yet. As they go through the treasure trove of evidence that they found during his arrest, I think we see now that the real target of that sort of surprise raid, so to speak, was to take him by surprise to make sure they could preserve evidence, and that yield a treasure trove of electronic documents and that's what they will peruse now. And there may be evidence there that may contradict Stone's bravado posturing at the moments. That remains to be seen. This tidbit came out I think in the related case filing, and they're really talking about what evidence could be common between some of these cases. But of course, from a macro level, what is common between the cases is profoundly significant. CABRERA: Shan, if they have direct communications between WikiLeaks

and Roger Stone, and Roger Stone was, you know, working in part to help the Trump campaign, we know WikiLeaks was working with Russia, and disseminating these hacked e-mails, is that a smoking gun as it pertains to collusion?

WU: It is closing in on a smoking gun. But the real smoking gun, we need to know exactly what we mean by the communications. I mean, if they're one-sided, he is just asking them for this, that may not mean too much. He may have some intent to help the campaign. What we need to see is what kind of back and forth communication there was. And then of course, most importantly, what is going to the campaign, what was he telling them about what he actually learned from them about the timing? That's really critical.

CABRERA: Josh, the judge in Stone's case has now initiated a gag order. His attorneys can't talk at all. But Stone only has to keep his mouth shut in and around the courthouse. Are you surprised by these rules?

CAMPBELL: I'm not surprised because these are the same restrictions that were put in place, if you think about Paul Manafort, and Rick Gates, and it really comes down to protecting the integrity of a future trial. And we know that Roger Stone is very colorful. This isn't to say that he enjoys this, obviously, you know, that I can think of no greater punishment from Roger Stone than getting between him and a camera. But I think it is something he will adhere to if he knows what is best for him. And again, it goes back to protecting the trial, protecting integrity, and not having undue outside influence. But it doesn't necessarily mean he will like it. But this is something placed on previous witnesses and it's not as though the government is unfairly punishing him.

[15:35:02] CABRERA: Shan, we just learned that the president's press secretary, Sarah Sanders, was interviewed by the special counsel last year. How important could she be to Mueller's investigation? And what do you think they may have asked her?

WU: I think she could be very important. The spokesperson, obviously, needs to hear a lot of the inside information in order to figure out what the message is, and there's no P.R. privilege that can protect that. So they want to know, what did she actually hear about the spin, the messaging development, based on the actual facts. Let's say Trump Tower meeting as one famous example. And so that could be very valuable. I doubt that she's any kind of a target or in trouble herself. But she could be a very valuable witness on that point.

And if I could just for a moment to follow up on what Josh said about the gag order, having represented Rick Gates at the time of our gag order, I remember that we actually placed a lot of emphasis -- and this is public, nothing confidential -- the judge, we placed a lot of emphasis on her point that whatever the statements are, they can't substantially prejudice the case. So it is interesting that, in some ways, it looks like she has thought more carefully since then, only stopping him from talking on the steps of the courthouse. But that language is still there. So if I were Roger, if I were Roger's lawyer, I would be counseling him to be careful on the talk show circuit.

CABRERA: I also wonder, Josh, because she wasn't part of the campaign as far as my recollection, so would her part of the Mueller investigation pertain to obstruction of justice?

CAMPBELL: Well, possibly. And I think that she was involved at that time. And then if you look at the full spectrum, talking about Sarah Sanders, of her role in the Trump world, not only then when he was running for office but then afterwards, a large part of this investigation, at least according to the reporting, what we suspect is the obstruction piece. So whenever the president fired FBI Director James Comey, my former boss, there was a request whether he was trying to influence the Russia investigation. At that point, Sarah Sanders was in place and in a position to know possibly what the discussions would have been. And as Shan mentioned, a spokesperson is so valuable to investigators because they're the people who kind of hear, OK, being a former government spokesperson, you sit down and say, what's the center of gravity, what do we know, and the next step is, what do we say about it. It's that first step, what they know, that helps get to their state of mind.

CABRERA: Josh Campbell and Shan Wu, good to see you, gentlemen. Thank you for being here.

CAMPBELL: Thank you.

WU: Thank you.

CAMPBELL: Thank you.

CABRERA: A stunning dismissal, straight from the Vatican. A once powerful former U.S. cardinal defrocked after being found guilty of severally abusing minors.

You're live in the CNN NEWSROOM. Don't go anywhere.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:41:43] CABRERA: The president got a number of facts wrong as he defended an emergency declaration for his border wall, including walls working 100 percent of the time. His own Customs and Border Protection tweeted this video just last month of a wall's obvious weakness. It shows undocumented immigrants using a ladder to get right on over it. And then just today, another example. U.S. Customs and Border Protection announcing the largest cocaine bust in a quarter century. Law enforcement officers discovered more than 200 pounds of cocaine, they say, hidden under the floor boards of a cargo vessel arriving from Ecuador to a port in Los Angeles. A wall would not have stopped that cocaine from getting into the country.

Here's CNN's Tom Foreman now with a fact-check on the president's wall speech.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TOM FOREMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: One of the president's chief claims to his fans -- it always gets a lot of applause -- is the idea that the wall has already been started.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We're right now in construction with wall in some of the most important areas. And we have renovated a tremendous amount of wall. Making it just as good as new. That's where a lot of the money has been spent on renovation.

FOREMAN: The second part of that statement is true. There has been renovation just as there has been under every president, and that's all there has been. There has been no new wall construction. This is a fact. There may be some started next month on a very tiny part of it, but for him to make that claim, with the other one there, makes the statement at very best misleading.

Another big claim, El Paso had a giant crime problem. They built a wall and the crime was solved.

TRUMP: When the wall went up, was it better? You were there, some of you. It was not only better, it was like 100 percent better.

FOREMAN: Go to El Paso. They do have a huge wall, a huge barrier down there. And yes, they had a huge spike in violent crime, it went way up and it came way down. The problem is, the wall was built down in this area, and crime actually went up after it. All of that had nothing to do with the wall. It happened before the wall. That claim by the president is simply false.

And one more he really likes to make is how much drug traffic is coming in over that open land out there where there's no big barriers.

TRUMP: A majority of the big drugs, the big drug loads don't go through ports of entry. They can't go through ports of entry. You can't take big loads because we have people, we have some very capable people, the Border Patrol, law enforcement, looking.

FOREMAN: And we don't know what he means when he says big drugs. Does he mean monetary value, physical size? We have no idea. We do know this. The drug enforcement administration, the very people he is citing, say, no, most of the drugs come through the official parts of entry. Look at heroin. The majority of the flow is through personally owned vehicles into the United States at legal points of entry followed by tractor-trailers. You need proof? Here, look at pictures the DEA puts out showing some of the loads coming in here. The only type of drug that is coming in illegally, that is more likely, according to the DEA, to come over open land where maybe a wall would slow them down or stop them, is marijuana. So again, this claim by the president is false.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

[15:45:05] CABRERA: Tom Foreman, thank you.

Back in just a moment. Stay with us.

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CABRERA: Right now, the U.S. government is warning Americans not to travel to Haiti as crime and protests continue to grip the nation. Protesters are calling for the president to resign amid soaring inflation and allegations of corruption. The civil unrest, which started about a week ago, has reportedly claimed multiple lives. The U.S. is deploying additional Marines to its embassy in Port-au-Prince to try to ramp up security there.

[15:50:00] Meanwhile, eight Canadian nurses have been trapped in a Christian charity compound on the island unable to evacuate due to the violence. CNN spoke with a nurse earlier today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NURSE (voice-over): The pastor, the director of the compound, has instructed us not to go outside. So we're here. We can get people to come in and can still provide health care for them and feeding programs. And we do have a school on the compound. But they will not let us go outside the compound.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: CNN national correspondent, Miguel Marquez, is in Port-au- Prince and joins us live.

Miguel, Haiti's president is rejecting the calls for him to resign. What is he saying? And tell us a little more about the desperation and the danger people are experiencing.

MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: He is saying that he's going to offer a plan that will address some of the concerns people have. Tonight, the prime minister is meant to speak to the country to fill in some of the blanks that the president talked about the other day. Will it satisfy? Probably not. They've gone through -- this is the 10th day of this uprising, this protest, in some cases, violent protests across Haiti. There were nine days of it that were quite difficult for the government to contain and deal with.

Today, things have calmed down. People say if he doesn't resign, if there's not some sort of dramatic bold action by this government to address the concerns of corruption -- billions of dollars, they're talking about, that seem to disappear from the coffers. The president then declaring an economic emergency. All of that kicking off this round of protests in anger.

And right now, what people are desperate for are the basics of life, food, water, and gasoline. They are all in extraordinarily short supply across Port-au-Prince and across Haiti today. People lining the streets, lining up for water. Dozens, hundreds of people, in some cases, trying to get to a spigot or a hose being put over a fence so they can fill a 5-gallon bucket so they can eat or drink for a day or two. Food also in short supply. Gas is almost nonexistent here. Any station that has it is quickly overrun with cars and motorcycles of people trying to fill up. It is a very, very tense situation.

The nation will be watching to see what the prime minister says. But there's great distrust of this government right now. And people we've spoken to here aren't sure where this is going. They think that if the president doesn't resign and if they don't start the process of not only investigating this government, but starting over, not just new elections, but starting over from the constitutional level of Haiti, it's going to be a difficult time for many, many days or months to come -- Ana?

CABRERA: Miguel Marquez, thank you for being our eyes and ears on the ground and bringing us a stark reality there from Port-au-Prince Haiti.

A once powerful U.S. cardinal, the latest to fall from grace over the Catholic Church sex abuse scandal. Theodore McCarrick once led the archdiocese of Washington. Today, he becomes the highest-ranking Catholic figure expelled from the priesthood after a Vatican trial found him guilty of sexually abuse minors

CNN's Delia Gallagher has the details.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

THEODORE MCCARRICK, FORMER CATHOLIC CHURCH CARDINAL: He is the one who has saved us.

DELIA GALLAGHER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): He was once a prince of the church and a friend of presidents. Former Washington, D.C., Cardinal Theodore McCarrick enjoyed a spectacular career at the heart of power in Washington and Rome. When the U.S. cardinals were summoned to the Vatican by John Paul II in 2002 at the beginning of the sex abuse scandal, Cardinal McCarrick was the reassuring face of that crisis, advocating zero-tolerance for abusers, even as there were unrevealed allegations against him.

MCCARRICK: I can't see how anyone in the United States today would cover up something like that.

GALLAGHER: Theodore McCarrick was created a cardinal in 2001 by John Paul II. Around that time, an American priest wrote to the Vatican to warn them of rumors that the cardinal was sexually abusing seminarians. But no action was taken for years. Until, according to the Vatican, under Benedict XVI, McCarrick was quietly advised not to travel or be seen in public and live a secret life of prayer and penance to avoid further rumors of his sexual misconduct with seminarians, a recommendation which the cardinal seemed to ignore as he continued traveling and appearing in public, even at the 2013 conclave that elected Pope Francis. Then, in June last year, accusations that McCarrick had abused a minor were found credible by an internal church investigation in New York. Although McCarrick maintained his innocence, he resigned as cardinal, something that has rarely happened in the history of the Catholic Church. Finally, he was brought to trial at the Vatican. Though, by now, 88 years old and infirm, he did not attend in person.

[15:55:24] Delia Gallagher, CNN, Rome.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CABRERA: Another brick-and-mortar bites the dust. The U.S. shoe store set to close every single store, next, live in the CNN NEWSROOM. Don't go anywhere.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:59:47] CABRERA: If you were a fan of Payless shoes, I have bad news for you. The discount chain will be closing all of its more than 2,000 U.S. locations. Some will begin closing as early as March. But most will stay open until May. Payless is also pulling the plug on its online store. Companywide liquidation sales start tomorrow.