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Powers Apologizes for Tweets; Grand Jury Convened in R. Kelly Case; Wellspring Living Impacts Women's Lives; Smollett Paid for Attack. Aired 8:30-9a ET

Aired February 19, 2019 - 08:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:30:00] ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: In what indisputably has become a dangerously toxic culture. I am not proud of what I have found.

Kirsten Powers joins us now.

KIRSTEN POWERS, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Good morning.

CAMEROTA: Kirsten, I'm so glad that we're having this conversation with you. I mean who among us doesn't find Twitter to be a toxic cesspool?

POWERS: Yes.

CAMEROTA: And I really appreciate that you are sort of taking responsibility publically for what you think your role is.

So, what did you find during your Twitter break?

POWERS: Well, so I think that, you know, it's interesting now looking -- reflecting back on the -- I did a sort of a thread on this. A lot of people walked away from it thinking I was just talking about Covington, but I actually wasn't. I was talking about a much broader issue. And I don't think that -- you know, that that was one example where, you know, I felt that I wasn't proud of my role. But there are many other places where I could say that. And, honestly, there's places I could say that where I haven't been proud of the way I've behaved on television or the way I've behaved in my columns.

So I think it's something that permeates outside of Twitter where we're in this culture where I feel like we have to make these snap decisions, right, about situations. And this -- this actually isn't even about the wait for more information kind of thing. I'm just saying like, even based on the information you have in front of you, you know, we're often pushed to say, you know, should Governor Northam have to step down? Should so and so who's been accused, you know, by two women but there's been no trial, there's been no investigation, should they have to step down. That we're constantly asked to make these snap judgments. And I don't think there's enough of a conversation about, you know, there but for the grace of God go I, for example. You know, that I think a lot of people feel -- you know, there's a lot of finger-pointing and, you know, oh, I'm better than this and I can cast judgment on that. And that's actually not what I believe. I mean, Alisyn, you know me

pretty well. You know, that's -- that's not my world view. And I sort of looked at some of the stuff I was doing and I was like, this doesn't really reflect what I believe. And I -- this isn't what I want to be doing. I don't really want to be participating in this.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Let me just read a little bit more of what you wrote, and it gets to that point. And, by the way, when I read it, I really took more than this is about Twitter or Covington. I --

POWERS: Yes.

CAMEROTA: Yes, yes, me too.

BERMAN: You know, I do think you were making a very big statement there.

You said, I want to stand on the side of justice and equality, but also of grace, and I have failed to do that. Part of grace is recognizing my own fallibilities and imperfect judgment and reminding myself that there but for the grace of God go I.

I think it's incredibly wonderful and brave for you to do this. But does it occur to you that you're going to unilaterally disarm, in a way? You are going to do this, but what if all the other people don't do it also? The haters out there.

POWERS: Yes. I mean I don't think -- you know, I did get a lot of -- surprisingly most of the feedback was pretty positive. The -- you know, but I did have a lot of people saying, like, no, you need to do this. You need to be calling these things out. You need to be saying these things. And I want to say, like, I'm still going to call things out. I'm still going to stand up for, you know, for justice and equality. But I do think that we need to have a conversation at some point that addresses the fact that the punishment doesn't always fit the crime.

And by that what I mean is, you know, even in the case of the Covington school, you know, I guess what I would have wanted was for them to maybe, you know, be disciplined in some way by their school and then there be some sort of reconciliation, right? They would apologize and -- for whatever part they played in it and Nathan Phillips could apologize for whatever part he played in it. There could be some kind of reconciliation.

But the truth of the matter is, in the current climate that we live in, that was very naive of me because what happens to people is they don't get -- I'm -- now I'm just saying -- now I know a lot of people are saying, like, no, there shouldn't have been any punishment. But let's just say for the people who thought there should be punishment, that that would -- in this day and age, that's never going to be the punishment, right? The punishment is going to be that you are going to have this following you around for the rest of your life.

And I don't think, you know, for teenagers or frankly even for adults, I don't think people are the sum of their worst moments. And that we have -- you know, instead, we -- we create this kind of caricature of this person that's just frozen in time around this one thing that they did. And, you know, a lot of people will say, well, I would never do that. I would never -- it's like, well, good for you, you know, you've never done anything wrong. I don't -- you know, I can't say that.

You know, fortunately, my stupid things aren't on camera because I was, you know, that didn't happen when I was a teenager. You know, I kind of look back on it.

And so I think that, you know -- so I think there's a way to try to hold people accountable, but in a way that like puts it in perspective. I don't know if that makes sense that --

CAMEROTA: It makes perfect sense. I mean I think it's a challenge, obviously not to denigrate our own bread and butter, but I think on cable news that there is a feeling of you are asked to analyze and comment on outrageous things.

POWERS: Yes.

CAMEROTA: Sometimes outrageous things are happening and your challenge will be how to do it in a nonjudgmental way. And that will be a challenge in a 20-second sound bite.

POWERS: Yes.

[08:35:02] CAMEROTA: I mean this is our -- the vehicle that we used to have this national dialogue. And so it will be a challenge.

POWERS: Yes, it's a challenge and it's also, I think, because what ends up happening is everything gets politicized. And so, you know, if you were to say, well, let's have, you know, some grace and, you know -- you know, how do you know you wouldn't have done something like this. For a certain group of people, they will always say, oh that just shows that you don't care about it or that just shows you're not taking it seriously, or that just shows -- and it's like, no, no, no, I'm not saying that it wasn't really bad. I'm just saying that we have to, you know, we have to keep it in perspective and not take this person and act like this is 100 percent who they are. That there is nothing else, you know, about them that is laudable or good.

And another, you know, thing I brought up in the thread is, you know, I was one of the people who called for Al Franken to resign. And I've had a lot of people, you know, friends come to me and say, like, I don't think that that -- I think we should have waited. There should have been an investigation. And, you know, the more I thought about it, I've thought, you know, in my need to be so consistent and pure in my principles, you know, I -- maybe I -- you know, that wasn't the right choice, you know what I mean, that have to, you know, sort of step back and think, like, maybe the right thing to do here would have been just to let it run its course. You know, I feel really strongly about wanting Me Too to be taken seriously, but I think that, you know, we have to also think about the individuals that are involved and the bigger issues.

CAMEROTA: Yes. I mean, look, part of analysis is self-analysis and self-awareness also. And so, Kirsten, I always appreciate you are so radically honest about some of this stuff. And we really appreciate having this conversation with you.

POWERS: Thanks for having me on.

BERMAN: Look, self-reflection is rare and getting rarer, and taking responsibility is getting rarer.

CAMEROTA: We applaud her.

Here's what else to watch today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ON SCREEN TEXT: 9:30 ET, Sen. Kamala Harris speaks in NH.

10:00 ET, Justice Ginsburg returns to SCOTUS.

3:00 ET, Biden speaks at U. of Pennsylvania.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: All right, disturbing new allegations against R. Kelly. What a videotape could show a grand jury just convened in the case. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:41:22] CAMEROTA: We do have some breaking news right now.

Iconic fashion designer Karl Lagerfeld has died. Lagerfeld had been in failing health recently and he was noticeably absent from Chanel's fashion show last month in Paris. He is best known for being the creative director for Chanel for more than three decades. Lagerfeld also served as head designer and creative director at Fendi and he had his own fashion label. Lagerfeld was 85 years old.

BERMAN: A towering figure in the fashion industry.

Sources tell CNN a grand jury has been convened to look into new allegations against singer R. Kelly. CNN has viewed a videotape that appears to show Kelly engaging in sex acts with an underage girl. And we want to warn you, some of the details you're about to hear are graphic.

So, CNN's Sara Sidner joins us now live in Chicago with the latest.

Sara.

SARA SIDNER, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, we're standing outside of R. Kelly's studio.

We should mention this is 11 years since he was put on trial on 14 counts of child pornography. He was acquitted in the trial. But now we are hearing from my sources that indeed a grand jury has been convened and it involves R. Kelly and potentially an underage girl. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SIDNER (voice over): Sources tell CNN a grand jury has been convened in connection with new allegations against R&B singer R. Kelly. This comes just days after attorney Michael Avenatti revealed he had turned over a newly unearthed videotape that he says shows R. Kelly engaged in illegal acts with a 14-year-old girl.

MICHAEL AVENATTI, ATTORNEY: And we've been working on this for the better part of 10 months on behalf of multiple clients and we've engaged in exhaustive investigation and I'm happy that we were able to locate this.

SIDNER: CNN can confirm the existence of the tape and its contents, but we cannot verify the age of the girl as there is no date on the video.

The VHS tape is 42 minutes long. It is clear and shows numerous sex acts. In one scene you see a naked man who appears to be R. Kelly and a girl. She repeatedly calls him "daddy" and at least a half dozen times refers to her 14-year-old genitalia. R. Kelly also repeats the age of her genitalia.

The details on the video are important because they could be used as a piece of evidence if a case is brought against Kelly. They mirror details in a 2008 child pornography case that was brought against Kelly in which he was acquitted.

The Cook County state's attorney would not confirm or deny whether there is a current investigation into Kelly. R. Kelly's attorney, Steven Greenberg, told CNN, no one from law enforcement has contacted me or my client regarding any potential investigation. Grand jury proceedings are, by law, supposed to be secret, so to the extent people are commenting on what may or may not be going on today are possibly violating the law.

R. Kelly has repeatedly denied accusations of statutory rape. For decades Kelly has been accused of inappropriate relationships with minors.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You don't get over a lot of this stuff.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You need to see how you have ruined lives.

SIDNER: The new information is coming on the heels of a six-hour series called "Surviving R. Kelly" on Lifetime. In it, women came forward accusing R. Kelly of sexually violating them when they were minors. Following that series in January, the Cook County state attorney's office asked for any alleged victims to come forward.

KIM FOXX, COOK COUNTY STATE'S ATTORNEY: We cannot do anything related to these allegations without the cooperation of victims and witnesses. And that is why I'm here today to encourage anyone who has information to please come forward.

(END VIDEOTAPE) [08:45:00] SIDNER: Now, we should also mention all of this coming as a group of women who created Mute R. Kelly have stopped R. Kelly's music from being played on radio stations and have managed to have some of his concerts cancelled. All of this as this grand jury has convened.

John.

CAMEROTA: Sara, thank you. Thank you very much for the update on that very disturbing story.

All right, now to this. Two law enforcement sources are casting doubt on "Empire" actor Jussie Smollett's story of being the victim of a hate crime. We'll look at the legal facts for him, next.

BERMAN: First, a safe place for women who escape sex trafficking to create a new beginning. Here's today's "Impact Your World."

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was trafficked out of an apartment. There would be several men on the hour, every hour, one at a time.

I was just a shell. How do you help somebody who's going through this? How do you get them back into life? How do you get them to be able to take care of themselves?

My name is Gabby and I am a survivor of sex trafficking.

It was a miracle that I made it to Wellspring.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The mission of Wellspring Living is to transform lives of those at risk or who have been victimized by sexual exploitation.

Residential programs are providing everything. A safe house, food, clothing, those basic needs. And then we're also providing life skills. We're provide therapy. We're providing a safe place for their lives to be restored.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You will be going to a job fair.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Our women's academy helps our young women get into living wage jobs in an environment where there's a lot of grace and there's a lot of love and care.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They're so great. I just absolutely love them. And, you know, Wellspring really taught me how to love myself and that I was worthy of love.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:51:07] CAMEROTA: "Empire" actor Jussie Smollett claims that he was physically attacked last month by two men who were yelling racial and homophobic slurs. But law enforcement sources tell CNN that Chicago Police believes Smollett paid two brothers to perpetrate this attack on him. And Smollett denies, of course, orchestrating his own attack.

So, what is next legally?

Joining us now is Areva Martin, civil rights attorney and CNN legal analyst, also Jeffrey Toobin, former federal prosecutor and CNN chief legal analyst.

OK, so here's -- Areva, let me just start with you.

Jussie Smollett says that he was attacked, OK? And it sounds like from local news stations in Chicago that police may now have evidence of things from these brothers, the alleged suspects, that they may have found receipts for some evidence, such as a rope and bleach, which were two of the items that Jussie Smollett said he was attacked with.

How will police determine who's telling the truth?

AREVA MARTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, a lot of this, Alisyn, has to do with credibility. We know that these two men, who were brought in to be questioned by the police were originally thought to be suspects. Now we're hearing from the Chicago Police Department that they are not suspects, but apparently they are cooperating with the Chicago Police Department. So the police department is going to look at things, like you mentioned, the receipts for the items, the bleach, the rope. They're going to look at, you know, their records in terms of apparently they used some kind of ride sharing vehicle to get to the location where the alleged attack occurred. They're going to collect all of this evidence.

And then it's going to be the credibility of these witnesses. What are they saying? Does their story make sense? Does the story comport with the physical evidence that the police has to date?

And we also know the police has talked to Jussie Smollett. So even though it doesn't -- it's not clear to us that he's going to give a second or perhaps subsequent interview to the police, he did provide some information to the police. So they're going to look at his prior statements and comparing that statement to the statements of these two individuals to make some determination about who's telling the truth.

This has just been a baffling story that started with what appeared to be a very serious, perhaps even hate crime perpetrated against Jussie Smollett. And now for him to be perhaps being looked at as the person who orchestrated the entire event.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

And, Jeffrey, right away there were questionable things about this. There was no videotape, though there were lots of cameras set up in the corridor, in the well-lit parking lot where he said that it had happened. If Jussie Smollett is found to have created this hoax, what's the punishment for something like that?

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN CHIEF LEGAL ANALYST: Well, there is -- filing false police reports is a crime. It's rarely prosecuted. But it -- but it can be a crime. And, frankly, it probably should be if that's what happened here.

My -- I have really followed this story with one thought in mind.

CAMEROTA: What is that?

TOOBIN: Don't jump to conclusions. You know, I mean, you saw politicians do it here. You saw people in the news media do it here. And, you know, given the work that we do, you know, we're on live TV, react immediately, tell us who's guilty.

And it just is such a great lesson, this story, in that you've got to take a breath, see what the evidence turns out to be because, first of all, it's just the right thing to do. And, second, you can wind up looking like an idiot, as several politicians have, it seemed, in light of what happened here. And that's the lesson at least selfishly that I have taken from this story.

CAMEROTA: I think that's a very good lesson.

TOOBIN: Yes.

CAMEROTA: I think that also when you just say "allegedly" and "reportedly" before some of the things that have come out, you can cover yourself because until the police say it, until the police say that there is an indictment, everything is alleged, Areva. But -- but -- but do we --

MARTIN: I kind of -- I kind of disagree with that.

TOOBIN: It's even -- it's even alleged that after they -- they --

CAMEROTA: Go ahead.

[08:55:00] MARTIN: Yes, I agree that, you know, obviously people who are involved in live TV like, you know, those of us that are a part of this conversation, we have to be careful about what we say. But Jussie Smollett did not have a history of making false claims. This is not someone who had a criminal record or had, you know, been engaged in any kind of conduct, I think, that should have given us rise or should have given us cause to pause and to question or to disbelieve what he was -- you know, the accusations that he was making.

So although I do think there's always room for judgment, I do think there's always room to be more analytical and more thoughtful in our commentary, this isn't the case for me that would have caused us to disbelieve anything that he said.

This man had a promising career. He's on a very successful, you know, series. He had a promising music career. So the question has always been for me, what -- what could he possibly have gained from making such allegations?

CAMEROTA: That's a great point. I mean what is the motive? It's such a head scratcher in terms of what could be the motive.

And your point, Jeffrey, you're right, it is all alleged until a conviction.

TOOBIN: That's right.

CAMEROTA: So let's all take that --

TOOBIN: You know, there's a great HBO documentary on right now about Jimmy Breslin and Pete Hamill, the great New York City columnists. And one of the most interesting parts is how Jimmy Breslin, when the Central Park Joggers, you know, the attackers were arrested, he was one of the only people who said, slow down, let's not convict these people yet. And it turns out they were unjustly accused. Good lesson for all of us.

CAMEROTA: He was right.

TOOBIN: Yes.

CAMEROTA: Areva Martin, Jeffrey Toobin, thank you very much.

MARTIN: Thanks, Alisyn.

BERMAN: All right, we have big, breaking 2020 news this morning. Bernie Sanders jumps in the race. What does that do to the field? We'll discuss, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

END