Return to Transcripts main page

New Day

CNN: DOJ Preparing for Mueller Report As Early As Next Week; Interview with Democratic Congressman Jim Himes of Connecticut; Jussie Smollett Turns Himself into Central Booking after being Charged with Lying about Criminal Assault; Court Documents Indicate Coast Guard Lieutenant Stockpiling Weapons in Planning for Large Scale Attack. Aired 8-8:30a ET

Aired February 21, 2019 - 8:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:00:00] RYAN YOUNG, CNN CORRESPONDENT: -- look bad in terms of this whole allegation. But let get to you what we know so far. We know around 5:00 this morning that Jussie Smollett with his attorneys turned himself in to central booking. And they did that on purpose because I believe they are trying to keep the actor out of the eye of the public because they want to stop us from getting video of him turning himself in.

The next step for him is after talking to detectives, he'll be brought here to the courthouse. Then he'll be booked like anyone else before his bond hearing. But if you think about this, how this all unraveled, it is an amazing story. Think about January 29th when the reports first came out. He said he was attacked by two men. One put a noose around his neck, they yelled slurs at him. When police first arrived, he actually asked some of the arriving officers to turn off their body cameras. He didn't even want to go to the hospital with them. He self-transported himself to the hospital. So there were questions about his initial story.

But since then things have been falling apart because when detectives put out the person of interest, they were able to get those guys as they came back from Nigeria. Those two men ended up being the whole lynchpin in terms of being able to explain to police exactly what happened. They said they were paid $3,500 by the actor to orchestrate all this. They have been telling police their entire story. They even gave over their cellphones to them. In fact, we have video of them buying some of items from a beauty supply store to be able to pull this off. But of course, as we have learned now, detectives have been able to figure this out.

But think about this. In a city like this with all the crime that it has faced, even though crime numbers are down, you are talking about these detectives, 12 of them, putting over 1,000 hours of work to be able to track this down.

And then yesterday they thought he was finally going to come forward and talk to them and tell them the entire story, Jussie Smollett with his lawyers. He didn't show up. That angered detectives and the police department even more. So they went forward with the grand jury. I was sitting inside the courthouse. I saw some of the detectives walking in our direction. I just got behind them and started walking with them. The next thing you know they started having the grand jury that lasted for several hours. We believe the two men, the brothers, Abel and Ola Osundairo talked for about two- and-a-half hours, detailing to the grand jury all the information they had about this and the sordid details.

And you have to go back to the fact that a letter was sent to the "Empire" set a week before all this happened. And it had some crushed powder in it. They had a hazmat team go out there. That didn't get enough attention. So this whole thing was set up for some reason to get the attention of all of us. Well, he has our attention now.

Still no clear idea what the motive is for all of this, but we do know at some point the actor will be brought here, go to central booking. They'll be a bond hearing. Unfortunately here, probably no cameras allowed in that hearing so we probably won't see him there either. So again, this story falling apart, coming to this conclusion that has a lot of us scratching our heads to try to figure out exactly why did this happen.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Ryan Young has been covering this story from the beginning for us in Chicago. Ryan, great work. Thank you very much.

Joining us now to discuss, Areve Martin, civil rights attorney and CNN legal analyst, and Joey Jackson, a criminal defense attorney and CNN legal analyst. The two new data points this morning, the big news, Jussie Smollett turned himself in. He's in custody. And we're going to hear from police in a couple of hours in Chicago. Areva, so what's going on with the defense team and what do you expect to hear from police?

AREVA MARTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: John, what we know from the defense team at this point is that they said they want everyone to continue to believe that Jussie is innocent until proven guilty and that they're going to mount an aggressive defense. What an aggressive defense means in a case like this is unknown. Does that mean they're going to be talking to prosecutors very early on about a possible plea deal for Jussie, or does it mean they're prepared to take this to the mat and actually go to trial?

The evidence doesn't look positive or favorable for Jussie at this point for him. But in this case what we have seen over the last three weeks is this drip, drip, drip, where pieces of information have come out, some have been contradicted in the different news outlets. So I think the better course of action at this point is to wait until we get all of the evidence to see, because the stories aren't making sense.

But I would like to see Jussie Smollett come out, and if it is true, the story that he orchestrated this attack is true, to make an apology, because so many people went to bat for him, so many people put their credibility and their reputations on the line to support him. And I think he owes, again, if this is true, he owes those people and the American people an apology for creating a story that may not be true. ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: For sure. But Joy, Areva makes a great

point. Let's learn our lesson and not have a rush to judgment. Let's not overcorrect now and convict Jussie Smollett. In fact, his attorney's statement says "Like any other citizen, Mr. Smollett enjoys the presumption of innocence, particularly when there's been an investigation like this one where information, both true and false, has been repeatedly leaked." So let's just all take a deep breath because obviously there still needs to be so much more information that comes out.

JOEY JACKSON, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: That's true, against. But while taking a breath we can't be immune from the information that is out there. And that information that's out there, we have to say -- I wouldn't be doing it justice if I said that it's not damning as to whether or not he made up the story.

[08:05:05] You can parse out the story itself and discuss whether it makes sense to be out at 2:00 in the morning, to still have the noose around your neck when the police arrived, to have the receipt now from the two gentlemen who apparently were in cahoots with him that establishes that they purchased it, to have the surveillance video when they said that they went to the store that corroborates them being there, and not turning over yourself, a whole bunch of things. So absolutely, we want to be cautious. At the same time, we cannot ignore the critical information.

In terms of an apology, we're not going to see one. He can't speak to the police at this point. His story is out there, it's done. So there is an imperative, yes, to people, if this is not true, deserve it. People love, care, respect him, and want to hear that. He's under the criminal process, and so that's not something we're going to see.

BERMAN: One of the outer space moments of this entire case is that Jussie Smollett did an interview on television with ABC News. I want to play just a small part of that, Areva.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JUSSIE SMOLLETT, ACTOR: Who the -- would make something like this up or add something to it or whatever it may be? I can't -- I can't even -- I'm an advocate.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: So how does that play into the case, Areva?

MARTIN: Yes. What we are learning now is that some of the statements that Jussie Smollett made in the GMA interview may be used or may have been used by the detectives at the grand jury stage. So whenever you are involved in criminal activity, giving a statement to the press is the worst thing you can do because the detectives, the district attorney, they can use any statement, public statement that you make, whether it's on a TV interview, a radio interview, or in the print media. Those statements can be used against you in putting together a case against you. So some of the statements Jussie made, I'm sure that interview was

parsed, I'm sure it was reviewed over and over again by the detectives. And I think there's again, as we saw Ryan say in his piece, some anger on the part of the Chicago Police Department. They have had 12 officers working on this. They dedicated a lot of resources to the story. We know Chicago is a city that has a lot of violent and very serious criminal activity happening on a daily basis. So to think that someone would make up a story and take away those resources from real crime victims is really disheartening.

JACKSON: And therein lies the problem, because you have a diversion of resources in a city where you need those resources, resources are needed everywhere. And they are placed into this. And so as it goes to his prosecution, I would expect that prosecutors and a judge are going to move hard at him to deter other people from doing this in the future and diverting those resources in addition to taking away from the real victims of crime.

One last point. We are all asking why, why, why. As media people, as people who are following the story, we want to know why. We may not know why. And the fact is, as it relates to his prosecution, it's irrelevant. Inquiring minds want to know.

CAMEROTA: You don't need a motive?

JACKSON: You do not ever need a motive. You just have to establish the element. Did he prove, did the prosecution establish when it comes to that that this was filed falsely. If so, that's a conviction. We're not there yet, but just letting you know.

CAMEROTA: Yes, but of course there is that appetite for why would a successful actor on a great trajectory, talented guy, need to do something like this? That will eat at us. Thank you both very much, Joey and Areva.

So federal prosecutors say a Coast Guard lieutenant was stockpiling weapons and ammunition in his Maryland home and that he is a domestic terrorist. The feds say he was planning a mass killing of politicians and journalists on his hit list that they found. CNN's Jessica Schneider is live in Washington with more. This is really a chilling case, Jessica.

JESSICA SCHNEIDER, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: It is, Alisyn. And this man that prosecutors say was planning this mass murder, he was at the same time going to work every day at Coast Guard headquarters in Washington, D.C. And when the Coast Guard eventually noticed these red flags, they launched an investigation, and agents discovered an arsenal in the suspect's apartment.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SCHNEIDER: Court documents providing chilling details about a Coast Guard lieutenant who prosecutors say hoped to murder innocent civilians on a scale rarely seen in this country. Before being arrested in Maryland last week, 49-year-old Christopher Hasson is facing federal charges of illegal possession of a firearm and possession of a controlled substance. But prosecutors say these charges are just the tip of the iceberg, writing "The defendant is a domestic terrorist bent on committing acts dangerous to human life that are intended to affect government conduct."

Investigators they say found this hitlist on Hasson's computer containing names of prominent Democrats including House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer, and Representative Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, as well as a number of 2020 Democratic candidates including Senators Kamala Harris, Cory Booker, and Kirsten Gillibrand. The list also containing the names of several journalists from CNN and MSNBC.

Federal agents say they found 15 firearms and more than 1,000 rounds of ammunition in Hasson's Maryland apartment, in addition to a stockpile of steroids the government says Hasson was using to increase his ability to conduct attacks.

[08:10:12] In e-mails outlined in court filings, Hasson calls himself a white nationalist and was inspired by a manifesto written by Anders Breivik, a Norwegian terrorist convicted of killing 77 people in 2011. Prosecutors say toughly a month before his arrest, Hasson Googled topics including "Are Supreme Court justices protected?" "Where do most senators live in D.C.?" And "Civil war if Trump impeached."

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCHNEIDER: And Coast Guard Lieutenant Hasson will be in court in Maryland this afternoon for a detention hearing. Prosecutors are pushing the judge to keep him behind bars while this case is pending because of the major threat they say he poses. Alisyn?

CAMEROTA: Jessica, thank you.

BERMAN: Major threat to say the least. Planning a mass killing on a scale that they have not seen in this country.

CAMEROTA: And stockpiling all of those weapons. It moved beyond the just thinking about it stage.

BERMAN: Robert Mueller's report could drop in just days. How much of it will lawmakers and the American people ever get to see? We have some differing opinions on that, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BERMAN: Sources tell CNN that Attorney General William Barr is preparing to announce the completion of Robert Mueller's Russia investigation as early as next week. Now, Barr talked about what could come next at a Congressional hearing just last month.

[08:15:00]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WILLIAM BARR, U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: The attorney general, as I understand the rules, would report to Congress about the conclusion of the investigation. And I believe there may be discretion there about what the attorney general can put in that report.

SEN. JOHN KENNEDY (R), LOUSIANA: So, you would make a report to Congress --

BARR: Yes.

KENNEDY: -- based on the report you've received?

BARR: Yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Glad we waited for that.

BERMAN: The supporting actor was Senator John Kennedy from Louisiana, up for a nomination for Sunday night.

Joining us now, Jennifer Rodgers, former federal prosecutor of the Southern District of New York, also a CNN legal analyst, Nia-Malika Henderson, CNN senior political reporter, and Garrett Graff, author of the . He's a CNN contributor.

Garrett, in wire.com you put together a list of seven possibilities for what William Barr might do. We believe he's going to get the Mueller report next week. The question is what does William Barr then do with it? How does the process work?

You lay out seven possibilities. Number one, Mueller gives Barr a simple letter saying who he's charging and who he's not charging. Number three, though, is a detailed narrative, a novel, as it were, of what happened here.

How do you think Mueller is choosing how to make this decision?

GARRETT GRAFF, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, you know, most people when they hear the phrase Mueller report think of what the 9/11 Commission did or what Ken Starr did which is publish a heavily footnoted full novel. But I think it's worth noting how much Mueller has been filing in these court documents so far. The so-called speaking indictments where he's speaking not through the press, not through ancillary materials, but through the actual indictments and court filings and guilty pleas he's filing with the court along the way.

I think we are most likely to see that Mueller chooses a vehicle like that to make public what he needs to make public or what he feels he needs to make public, because that's something he has total control over. Whereas anything that he hands over to William Barr as the attorney general, then it's up to Barr to decide what to hand over, whether it's a full report, a summary or something in between.

And so, this is a situation where the one thing that Mueller can absolutely control are the court filings.

CAMEROTA: Jennifer, if this happens early next week or as early as neck week, how do you see it playing out? JENNIFER RODGERS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, it's hard to say. If

Mueller gives information about the evidence he collected and the legal conclusions he and his team drew from the evidence which I hope he does, it's going to take Barr and his team time to go through it, make sure there is no classified information in there, protected grand jury information. Even if Barr lives up to the promise to be as transparent as he can, it's going to take time to make sure what he turns over doesn't violate the rules or implicate anyone who shouldn't be because they are not being charged and do that sort of thing. So, I'm thinking at least a couple of weeks before we see results.

BERMAN: I got to say, this sets up just a potentially huge political battle, Nia. The president runs risk if he tries to keep this a secret. If it looks like he's trying to hide something from Congress and the American people, that's a risk.

Likewise, Congress runs risks also, because it might take formal action by Congress, particularly the House, in order to get some of this stuff from Robert Mueller. It might take formal impeachment proceedings. You might need to see we are formally investigating this in order to issue the subpoena the courts will recognize to get some of the documents. There is risk on both sides.

NIA-MALIKA HENDERSON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL REPORTER: There is tremendous risk on both sides. This is going to continue to be a political battle. We have seen it already with the president labeling the Mueller probe as a witch hunt and basically cooked up by angry Democrats.

And then Democrats at this point saying they would be prepared to issue a subpoena for this full report and possibly issue a subpoena to have Robert Mueller also come up and testify. Who knows what would happen with either of those.

This has always been sort of at the crux of a lot of the conversation on the Hill, a lot of conversation among Democrats, among Republicans, a real dividing line in terms of how they see these proceedings, how they see this.

One of the things where people are united and we have a poll on this, essentially Americans want to see this report. It's been much discussed over these almost two years and the subject of much debate on the Hill and just in general among lawmakers. So, you've got Republicans and Democrats wanting to see this.

[08:20:00] And you'll have Barr in the middle of it having to balance the DOJ regulations with what the president wants as well. He did in that hearing, Barr said the president wouldn't have a say in terms of what Congress would eventually see. I think that comforted some Democrats.

But still, they are leery of what Barr might do and once you see a full accounting of this Mueller probe. The president yesterday essentially said it's all up to Barr.

One of the questions you might have for the president, if all along you have said there is no collusion, if all along you said this is just a witch hunt by angry Democrats and essentially that he didn't do anything wrong, what's wrong with just having full transparency in releasing this report?

CAMEROTA: Jennifer, we had Senator Richard Blumenthal on and he suggested that if they don't have enough answers, that his committee would subpoena people including possibly Robert Mueller and then would it be up to Bill Barr whether to OK whether Robert Mueller can go in front of a congressional committee?

RODGERS: I don't think so. The problem is the regulations are being used for the first time with the new special counsel regulation with Bob Mueller. So, it's hard to say how it would play out.

But I think what would happen is a subpoena would be issued and it would be up to Robert Mueller himself or someone else to come in. Maybe the White House in this executive privilege theory to try to quash that subpoena saying he can't testify things that are executive privilege. Mueller may reveal those things.

But, you know, it's anyone's guess --

CAMEROTA: Uncharted territory basically.

RODGERS: Pretty much.

BERMAN: And draw people's attention to the glitch or a conundrum in all of this again. And I think it's worth noting, Garrett, here which is that Justice Department guidelines say a sitting president can't be indicted. William Barr's I think interpretation of the special counsel law is he can't make public any information about someone who is not charged.

So if the president can't be charged by Justice Department guidelines, Barr might be suggesting I never will make any public derogatory information even if it's politically damaging and politically noteworthy to Congress there. How will Congress handle it? Is there a road map in Watergate with Leon Jaworski?

GRAFF: Yes. And so, this is -- this is a complicated question. First, this matter of whether the president can or cannot be indicted isn't as settled as the president's TV lawyer Rudy Giuliani would tell you it is. It is a Justice Department policy, not a regulation. It is something that with discussion and approval, Robert Mueller could decide to move forward with an indictment of the sitting president.

They could also file an indictment and immediately suspend the case until the president leaves office. Or they could file an indictment of others and name the president as an unindicted conspirator. So, Mueller does have some legal tools available to him, even around the conundrum of the way that the current Justice Department guidelines are written.

But your question, I think, is really an important one, which is what -- you know, Bob Mueller's task is to investigate criminal federal crimes. What does Robert Mueller do with what are essentially political crimes?

You know, ultimately, this is a question for Congress in terms of high crimes and misdemeanors that the president may have committed either becoming president or in the White House under potential impeachment hearings, and this is something where it is possible Mueller comes up with evidence of behavior that falls short of a chargeable federal felony but is still something that in a democratic system like ours, we don't want candidates for high office engaging in. And that does become a sticky question of, sort of, what does Mueller do with things that are just bad politics?

CAMEROTA: We're watching closely for those answers.

Garrett, Nia, Jennifer, thank you very much.

RODGERS: Thank you.

CAMEROTA: So, what can Congress do if the new attorney general doesn't release the full Mueller report? A key House Democrat tells us, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:28:25] BERMAN: All right. Sources tell CNN that the new Attorney General William Barr could announce as early as next week the completion of special counsel Robert Mueller's Russia investigation. The question is how much of the Mueller report will Congress and the American people get to see?

Joining me now, Democratic Congressman Jim Himes. He's a member of the House Intelligence Committee.

Congressman, it's coming. The question is, what's coming?

What are your expectations here?

REP. JIM HIMES (D), CONNECTICUT: Yes, John, I have pretty clear expectations here. This Mueller report has been probably the most controversial thing the American public has had to consider for the last year. Of course, that's very much a deliberate strategy by the president and the president's supporters to throw mud on the FBI, on the Department of Justice, on Robert Mueller himself. And, of course, this has been enormously divisive for the country.

So, you know, there are all sorts of considerations in an ordinary investigation about whether a report or statement at all is made if it might compromise people who haven't been charged. Obviously, we need to be protective of sources and methods and that sort of thing. But the answer here, John, is that this is such a momentous moment for the American public, that while there is a need to protect sources and methods, this needs to come out in a way that explains exactly what the special counsel has been doing, and exactly what the special counsel found. That is critical I think to the restoration of some sense of normal politics in this country.

BERMAN: You say it is essential to protect sources and methods. What about the protection of people who are not charged with crimes? Because declinations, declining to prosecute or charge here, that is one of the things that Robert Mueller will report to William Barr.

END