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Michael Cowen Is Going To Testify In Public; Pope Francis Is Convening A Historic Summit On Sexual Abuse At The Vatican; Former Congressman O'Rourke Will Let Everyone Know His Intentions By The End Of The Month; A Colorado Woman Loses Control Of Her Car And Flipping It. Aired 8:30-9a ET

Aired February 21, 2019 - 08:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:30:00]

JOHN BERMAN, CNN HOST: How much there do you think you have a right to know?

REP. JIM HIMES (D), CONNECTICUT: Well, that's a really good question, John. And I'm not sure you can answer it in general. In other words, one of the reasons prosecutors don't release reports, or talk about investigations is because is somebody, you know, was suspected of a crime, they shouldn't have to carry around, for the rest of their life, the notion that they were suspected, but there was not enough proof there to either charge, or take to trial.

Now, here's the other side of that argument. You know, the FBI and the Department of Justice, for better or for worse, crossed that bridge a long time ago when FBI Director Jim Comey decided to tell the American public, not once, but twice, that then candidate Hillary Clinton was under investigation.

And then, remember the very public announcement that, gosh, we didn't find anything. That was an unusual statement of - of - of no finding in an investigation that actually may have had a substantial impact on the election of 2016.

So in this case, again, there is a powerful public interest in people knowing exactly what happened. But yes, of course, you know, in addition to protecting things that might be classified, this will need to be done in a way that it can be released to the public without prejudicing or compromising people whose reputation shouldn't be compromised.

BERMAN: To be clear, one person who agrees with your Comey argument has been William Barr. And that might be an argument that he makes, not to release things. The argument is Comey didn't handle it right. I am going to handle it, in his argument, the right way.

My next question to you is, what are you prepared to do about it? What will the Democratic House do if you don't get what you want from the Attorney General of the United States?

HIMES: Yes, John - and look, I appreciate your previous point. But again, this is not your run-of-the-mill. Usually - you know, usual FBI investigation of, you know, some possible bad guy. This is something has - that has twisted the American body politic into a pretzel for well over a year now.

So this - the public interest in knowing what happened - and by the way, if the president is 100 percent innocent of any sort of collusion, of money laundering, of obstruction of justice, you know what? The American people need to know that, too.

So I'm not advocating, you know, for any particular outcome. What I'm advocating for is that cathartic moment when the American people finally learned what really happened. And to that end, and to answer your question, if the new attorney general, you know, releases a two- page summary which doesn't tell us anything.

You can bet that we will subpoena that report. And we will do what we need to - again, in the service of the public interest of allowing Americans to know what really happened so that this isn't a festering sore, you know, on the American body politic years from now. We will subpoena that - that - that document, and figure out a way to tell the American people what really happened, regardless of what happened.

BERMAN: All right. Also happening next week, in this giant week of news and developments, Michael Cowen is going to testify in public, before cameras, to the House Oversight Committee. And then, the next day, it's my understanding, behind closed doors to your committee, the House Intelligence Committee.

He's restricted to what he can say to oversight. But no restrictions, I believe, in what he can answer to you, including questions about the Russia investigation. What do you want to know from Michael Cohen?

HIMES: Yes. And John, I think there's probably not going to be a dramatic difference in those two testimonies, right? You know, Michael Cohen wasn't living in a classified environment. He wasn't working for the CIA. He wasn't doing, you know, confidential investigations.

So I don't imagine there's a huge amount of stuff that we would consider classified. Look, I - I - I think the American public is going to learn a lot next week. However, remember the supporters of the president, who are not interested in what really happened, who are interested in defending the president.

They're already out saying this is not a credible witness, this is a liar in order to - whatever stories get told, in order to do exactly what they've tried to do around Robert Mueller, the Department of Justice, and the FBI, and to damage the credibility of this witness.

Now obviously, in this case it's a little easier because Michel Cohen is an admitted liar. He's going to jail for that. But I think it's going to be a pretty - a pretty partisan spectacle, as the Republicans are not particularly interested in the fact, but interested in damaging the credibility of Michael Cohen's testimony.

BERMAN: Well, something we'll all be watching very - very closely. Congressman Jim Himes thanks so much for being with us.

HIMES: Thank you, John.

BERMAN: Alisyn.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN HOST: All right, John, Pope Francis convening a historic summit on sexual abuse at the Vatican. What is the Pope doing to stop this scandal? We have a live report for you, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:35:00]

CAMEROTA: Pope Francis calling Catholic Church leaders to action as he opens a historic Vatican summit on clergy sex abuse. The Pope says they must, quote, listen to the cry of the small who are asking for justice.

Abuse survivors are there telling bishops about the trauma inflicted on them by those they trusted. CNN's Rosa Flores is live is live in Rome for us with more. So what's happening today, Rosa?

ROSA FLORES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I'm sorry, Alisyn. Sorry about that. Alisyn, Pope Francis really setting a very firm tone ahead of this meeting, telling bishops that they must come up with concrete measures. And normally we have to read between the lines, or talk to experts.

But this time we actually obtained a list of what Pope Francis is talking about. And number seven on that list is holding bishops accountable. The big question of course is, are the bishops that are in the room qualified to make change within the church? We - we talked to some survivors who say that some of those bishops are not, starting with the American bishops.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FLORES: Just days before Catholic bishops from around the world gather in Rome to confront clergy sex abuse, a bombshell. Theodore McCarrick, a former cardinal and archbishop of Washington D.C. was defrocked by Pope Francis on Saturday after a church trial found him guilty of abusing minors and adult seminarians decades earlier.

[08:40:00]

The expulsion of McCarrick, once one of the highest ranking catholic officials in the U.S. marks the first time an American cardinal has been held to account in a scandal that has dogged the church for decades.

More than 6,700 priests in the U.S. have abused tens f thousands of children since 1950 according to bishop accountability. But only a fraction of them have been defrocked. McCarrick's dismissal is just the latest in a wave of high level fall outs that has rocked the Catholic Church over the last year.

DONALD WUERL, CARDINAL: Shame on you.

FLORES: In October, Cardinal Donald Wuerl then one of the world's most powerful Catholics resigned in the wake of a damming grand jury report in Pennsylvania which accused him of mishandling cases of abuse. Wuerl denied the allegations.

According to bishop accountability, the church has released about 100 lists with the names of an estimated 2,500 predator priests and has shelled out more than $3.8 billion in settlements and payouts since the 1980s.

The unprecedented discipline of McCarrick was welcomed by this man, Cardinal Daniel DiNardo of Houston. He released a statement about McCarrick that said in part, "No bishop, no matter how influential, is above the law of the church."

Despite that hard line, he arrived in Rome amid a cloud of controversy. He is under scrutiny in two states for his mishandling of abuse claims made against priests he once oversaw.

Should Cardinal DiNardo represent every American catholic in Rome?

MICHAEL NORRIS, SURVIVOR OF PRIEST ABUSE: Absolutely not.

FLORES: Survivor network SNAP sent Pope Francis a letter ahead of this meeting demanding that every bishop involved in cover-up be fired starting with DiNardo. And what do you hope for?

NORRIS: From this meeting? I'm not hoping for much. I don't have very high expectations. How can they can be part of the solution of they're part of the problem?

FLORES: CNN reached out to Cardinal DiNardo for this story while an interview was not granted. His spokesperson sent us a statement saying that the archdiocese is cooperating fully with law enforcement. Cardinal DiNardo is not charged with a crime. However, investigators raided his offices in November.

BRETT LIGON, DISTRICT ATTONREY: I will tell you, anywhere that this investigation and any evidence that we gain as part of this investigation, this search warrant or any other search warrant, if it has a material barring on the criminal conduct or on the punishment is where we will go.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

CAMEROTA: So Rosa, look, this scandal has gone on for so long, so many years. What is the feeling that a four day summit in Rome can change?

FLORES: From talking to survivors, they say they know that clergy sex abuse will not end after this four day meeting. But what they do say is that Pope Francis has the power too do something because he is the leader of the Catholic Church. He can hold bishops accountable.

Here's the nuance, Alisyn, is not just hold the bishops accountable that have abused but also the ones that have covered up abuse. And of course the testimony of the survivors is very critical and important. The pope and the bishops have been listening to some of those testimonies.

Let me share with you some of the heart-wrenching experiences. This is from a girl whose abuse lasted for 13 years. She was 15 when that abuse started. It says quote, "I got pregnant three times and he made me have an abortion three times."

Another survivor quote, "I have been sexually molested for a long time, over 100 times. It's difficult to live life."

CAMEROTA: Oh my gosh, Rosa, just sickening. I mean just sickening to hear it in that plain spoken way. Thank you very much for all the reporting from Rome. John.

BERMAN: All right, Senator Bernie Sanders with money to burn right out of the gate with the quick call of cash, sum $6 million says about his new campaign for president. That's next.

CAMEROTA: But first, a woman who climbed out of addiction to reach new heights, here's today's turning points.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNKNOWN FEMALE: The sound of the ax hitting the ice, everything to me was magical. The very first time I went ice climbing, I felt joy for the first time in my life without the use of a heavy dose of street drugs.

I started doing drugs at 12. As the years went on, I did harder and harder drugs until I found myself addicted to them. Most drug addicts are self medicating their existential pain which I was from childhood trauma.

[08:45:00]

By the time I was in my early 20s, I was suicidally depressed. Later I got thrown in jail on drug charges. And that was my rock bottom. I missed the feeling of wind in my hair and sun on my face. And that's when I realized that my relationship with nature was stronger than my relationship with drugs.

It brought me in to the present moment. You get to just climb up and away from everyday reality. And then reach way up and get that tool in. I do give ice climbing clinics and teach people how to ice climb.

Now you'll have those nice hooks but you can still flick in to them. People find it very empowering, especially women. It brings me joy to introduce other people to the activity that literally changed my life.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Turning point brought to you by Cancer Treatment Centers of America, care that never quits.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAMEROTA: Senator Bernie Sanders 2020 bid is raising big money right out of the gate. The Sanders campaign says it raised nearly $6 million in the first 24 hours. What does that mean for his chances? Let's get the bottom-line.

[08:50:00]

The CNN political director David Chalian, so David, that -- doesn't that tell us that the enthusiasm for Bernie Sanders has not waned over the years?

DAVID CHALIAN, POLITICAL DIRECTOR: Right. He has this national grassroots army, Alisyn, that with the flip of a switch by saying I'm in, they showed up and activated in those first 24 hours raising money the way Bernie Sanders by the way needs to raise money, right?

He is not about big fancy ballroom fundraisers raising big dollars at a clip. His entire political life force is the small dollar donations, this grassroots army that he can go back to again and again and again.

And they were there for him on the first day of the campaign according to what the campaign is telling us in a way that wallops everything else we have seen from other candidates to date in their first 24 hours rollout. So yes, that's significant. I don't know that it tells us what it means, where this race is going.

I think it's very hard to suggest that it gives us a big clue. But what it does tell us is that there is still this army of grassroots supporters for Bernie Sanders. They were waiting for him to get in, and they are eager to participate in another Sanders campaign.

BERMAN: To me it was eye-opening. It really is, because the $6 million in 24 ours is just objectively a big number and it shows--

CHALIAN: Yes, no doubt.

BERMAN: -- there are people who are sticking with Bernie enough to open their wallets and in a multi candidate field, a field that could be a dozen or more people, even if that's just 12 percent of the diehard supporters who stick with you, that's enough to show in some places.

CHALIAN: Yes. And now as you know John, money is necessary but not sufficient, right? There are going to be all these other components here. And I do look at the Sanders run this time around in a different context. It needs a different context. The one thing that I have sort of a big question mark around, yes, that is an eye popping number.

Those diehard and supporters are there for him. But where do they stand animated around the Sanders candidacy without the context of a Hilary Clinton, the single very embodiment of the establishment, everything he was running against in a one-on-one race. There was an easily identifiable opponent for Sanders last time around. And that rallied his troops. This is a much more crowded field and Bernie Sanders's lane is more crowded in and of itself offering some of these folks with other choices other than Sanders. They didn't have that in 2016. So I do think his run this time is in a different context.

To your point though, also because it's not one-on-one John, he doesn't need 50 percent plus one necessarily. If the field remains so large, you need a smaller slice fir your win number. I mean that's just the math of getting the nomination.

CAMEROTA: So speaking of the field, what are your breadcrumbs telling you about Biden and Beto?

CHALIAN: The two big B names that are not yet in the race. Congressman O'Rourke -- former Congressman O'Rourke said that he would let us know his intentions by the end of the month. That -- here we are, that's next week. And so, I expect that we are going to get word from O'Rourke about his intentions.

Everything that he has one publically in the last couple weeks seems to suggest that he is in to doing this, framing himself against the president with the sort of protest rally own at the border in El Paso. He seems poised to make the argument here. Biden, everyone you speak to around him indicates he wants to do this.

They also seem to think he has more time here than other folks. That he doesn't have to be in a huge rush to get in this, Alisyn. And so, he's clearly taking that time.

I wouldn't be surprised if we don't have sort of a final answer from Joe Biden until the end of March because that also is the end of the first fundraising quarter and he could start fresh in April without these kinds of comparisons to big numbers like Bernie Sanders.

BERMAN: I got to say, that's a long time to wait as far as better next week. He may want to rethink that given that next week there's some stuff going on. And his announcement could get overshadowed by some of the other events.

But Biden just very quickly, I think that Joe Biden could be looking at the Bernie Sander announcement seeing how big that was and the fundraising numbers he was pulling and looking at that notion. And maybe it doesn't take more than 25, 20 percent to hold a leading spot in the field and it's got to be attractive.

CHALIAN: No doubt that it has to be attractive; you also have to think of your Joe Biden, do I generate that kind of enthusiasm and diehard support from the ascendant grassroots sort of left progressive wing in the party. I don't know that we know the answer to that yet.

We saw -- this was the energy that delivered the house majority to democrats in 2018. We saw huge amounts of money in small dollar donations to all those candidates in the midterms. So, it's out there and democrats are so eager to defeat Trump. If they think Biden is the guy that can do that, he will have that enthusiasm on his side. BERMAN: All right.

CAMEROTA: David Chalian, thank you.

BERMAN: Thanks, David.

CHALIAN: Sure.

BERMAN: He have a programming note, CNN will hold a presidential town hall with Senator Bernie Sanders. It will be moderated by Wolf Blitzer. It's Monday night at 8 o'clock eastern only on CNN.

[08:55:00]

CAMEROTA: Hi.

BERMAN: Hi. I'm Bernie Sanders.

CAMEROTA: The good stuff is next.

BERMAN: People need to see the video to know that joke.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BERMAN: It's time now for the good stuff. Good Samaritans rush to save a Colorado woman's life. Rick Hall saw the woman lose control of her car and hit a parked pickup truck before flipping over entirely. Immediately he ran to help.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RICK HALL, GOOD SAMARITAN: I saw her body laying in there, but her head somehow got pinned underneath.

BERMAN: Rick and a handful of others turned her car upright using apparently their superhuman strength--

CAMEROTA: Yes.

BERMAN: EMTs took her to the hospital. Rick says he was blown away by the selflessness he saw from strangers.

HALL: It's nice that a community even in strangers can come together and work as a team to be able to help in situations like this.

CAMEROTA: Yes, the selflessness of his as well. I mean he was part of that group that turned over the car.

BERMAN: They tipped the car over.

CAMEROTA: Wow.

BERMAN: Caring and strength, the full package.

CAMEROTA: Human beings are incredible sometimes.

BERMAN: Sometimes.

CAMEROTA: Yes, exactly.

BERMAN: Every once in a while.

CAMEROTA: All right, thanks so much for being with us, time now for Newsroom with Poppy Harlow and Jim Sciutto.

[09:00:00]

END