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Cohen Expected to Accuse Trump of Criminal Conduct in front of Congress; Interview with Rep. Jim Himes (D-CT). Aired 7-7:30a ET

Aired February 26, 2019 - 07:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So every time he says anything, the Democrats can say, "Why should we believe you?"

[07:00:09] UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Trump was trying to create this environment that is so favorable, Kim will feel that he can give up his weapons.

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We'll have a tremendous summit.

We want denuclearization.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The president wants made-for-TV moments. And I am worried he will give too much.

DAVE ARONBERG, STATE ATTORNEY FOR PALM BEACH COUNTY: This is not about victimless crime. This is about enabling criminals to traffic women into our country.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There's a presumption of innocence. He has constitutional rights.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My advice to Kraft, come out, acknowledge what he did.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: This is NEW DAY with Alisyn Camerota and John Berman.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: All right. Good morning, everyone and welcome to your NEW DAY.

New information just in as to what Michael Cohen, President Trump's former lawyer and now convicted felon, will say publicly before the House Oversight Committee. A source familiar with Cohen's preparations tells CNN that, for the first time, Cohen will detail Donald Trump's role in some of the crimes that Cohen pleaded guilty to. That is what he will do when he testifies, in fact, starting today, behind closed doors.

That testimony today begins with the Senate Intelligence Committee; will also include some behind-the-scenes details, raising questions about the president's conduct in business and when he was a candidate. Today, as we said, he'll testify behind closed doors to the Senate

Intelligence Committee. Tomorrow, it is all public and on TV before the House Oversight. It will all unfold. It will all unfold as the president arrives in Vietnam for this crucial summit with North Korean leader Kim Jong-un.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Also, in just hours, the House is set to vote on a measure to block President Trump's emergency declaration at the U.S.-Mexico border. One prominent Republican senator, Thom Tillis, says that he'll buck the president and join Democrats in their bid to block the president's action. In a "Washington Post" op-ed, Thom Tillis says he's concerned the president is overreaching.

Let's talk about all of this. We want to bring in David Gregory, CNN political analyst; Jeffrey Toobin, CNN chief legal analyst; and Dana Bash, CNN chief political correspondent. Great to have you guys in studio. Great to see you guys.

OK. So Jeffrey, when Michael Cohen -- let's start with him -- testifies in front of the Senate Intel Committee, we won't be able to hear it. So what will lawmakers do? If -- if Michael Cohen testifies that the president engaged in some sort of criminal wrongdoing, what does Congress do with that information?

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN CHIEF LEGAL ANALYST: Well, they'll have to decide. I mean, there is not much they can do, other than impeach him or not impeach him. I mean, there is not a specific remedy available. I don't think the impeachment is going to go forward any time soon.

I assume what they will really do is leak the -- is leak what he said, and then -- and then that will enter the -- into the political bloodstream.

It's worth remembering that the division between the public testimony tomorrow and the two private testimonies before the Intelligence Committee, all the Russia-related stuff -- Trump Tower, Moscow -- that's going to be behind closed doors today and on Thursday.

Wednesday is going to be mostly about about Cohen's relationship with Trump before Trump became president.

CAMEROTA: All the financial transactions from the Trump Organization, which are fascinating.

TOOBIN: Yes. And the payoffs to the two women, which Cohen was instrumental in: Karen McDougal and Stormy Daniels.

BERMAN: It's like a Russian sandwich. Wednesday, you know, will be the --

CAMEROTA: Russia.

TOOBIN: Will be the bread portion.

BERMAN: -- yes, the bread --

TOOBIN: Actually, it would be a -- anyway --

BERMAN: So Dana, fill us in on exactly what we are learning about the broad parameters what Michael Cohen will do. Because the phrase we're hearing is he will testify as to the president's role --

DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes.

BERMAN: -- in the crimes that Michael Cohen has pleaded guilty to.

BASH: Right. And look, we have to wait to hear what comes out of his mouth to get the specifics of what that means. But just the notion of what we are told of the president being involved at all in crimes that Michael Cohen committed, not alleged, committed, because he is going to jail. That's no small thing.

I mean, imagine if this were any other president.

BERMAN: Right.

BASH: And somebody close, who was as close to the president as Michael Cohen is went to testify?

So look, that is going to be probably one of the big, you know, parts of this testimony and just also hearing from Michael Cohen under oath, talking about not just potential crimes, which would be the biggest issue, but also how the president conducted himself, how the president, you know, dealt with potential issues -- sticky issues of business; and also, as he was transitioning from business to the campaign, things that he might have done or said t -- that people out there in the universe probably would not be very happy about.

CAMEROTA: David Gregory, big picture. What are you listening for?

DAVID GREGORY, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, he's lied to Congress before. He's -- he's, you know, he's going to invite all kinds of scorn from Republicans, who say, "Consider the source. Why are you going to trust this guy?"

[07:05:04] But he's the ultimate insider. We should remind people: he said -- you know, this was a guy who claimed he would take a bullet for Donald Trump. So he provides a lot of insight into who Donald Trump is, how he conducted himself as a private citizen. His attitudes, maybe even his income.

The key question is, what is -- we talked about this yesterday. What is he going to share that -- about crimes that may or may not have been committed when the president was president? That becomes important.

And when he makes these cases, makes a case against the president, if that's what he's going to do, how does he back it up? What kind of documentation does he have to back it up? All reports are he will bring that kind of corroboration. And that's going to be really important.

But I still wonder, as I'm sitting here, OK, so what does it all amount to in the end? He's already going to go to prison, and he's, you know, I think, in some part, you know, saying, "Look, I'm doing everything I can do as a good citizen here and be a righteous guy before I go to prison," which he's now -- he's delayed.

What are Democrats going to do with this? As Jeffrey says, you know, you can go down the impeachment road, and the Mueller report may provide fodder for that.

But until and unless there's any action on the Senate side to get those things passed, you know, and -- in a trial on the Senate, I'm just unclear where it all goes.

BASH: Yes. The answer is, I think, as Jeffrey said, the political bloodstream. Because (AUDIO GAP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:10:29] BERMAN: All right. We are back, and you can hear us, which is terrific. There apparently were some transmission issues which may or may not be Russia-related.

CAMEROTA: Thank you. If there was ever evidence of Russian interference, it might have been that last segment.

BERMAN: Yes. Or that someone pulled the plug backstage.

CAMEROTA: Vladimir Putin.

BERMAN: One or the other. One or the other.

BASH: I think I was talking so I'm just going to take --

CAMEROTA: Yes.

BERMAN: We were talking about Michael Cohen and some of the new details that are coming out about what he will say, or might say, before Congress in the next three days when he testifies. We are told he will talk about the president's role in crimes that Michael Cohen has pleaded guilty to. And then also behind-the-scenes details about some of the president's business transactions and private life from before he was president.

Now, I don't know, again, what Michael Cohen will actually end up saying out loud. It seems to me by saying the behind-the-scenes of the business the day before it happens, someone is trying to send a message to the president.

BASH: Absolutely he's trying to send a message to the president. I think that is all going to be fascinating fodder.

One of the things that David Gregory said before the break, which I think is important to underscore, is what about when Donald Trump was president in the White House? And one question is, when Michael Cohen is expected to talk about the president's role in the crimes that he committed, one of the big crimes -- big crime that he committed was lying to Congress. So, did the president -- is he going to say the president told him to

do that? Strongly suggested that he did that? That is way beyond, you know, any kind of innuendo. I mean, we'll see --

CAMEROTA: We'll see if he does.

BASH: -- how far he goes in that.

CAMEROTA: If he says the president directed him to lie.

BASH: Then that's going to be --

CAMEROTA: But to these guys, he has to be some kind of corroborating evidence.

BASH: Yes, he does.

CAMEROTA: There has to be some sort of handwritten note or something. Because then otherwise, it's just Michael Cohen who, as you know, Republicans now say, liar.

BASH: He does. Absolutely. His credibility is --

CAMEROTA: "Lifetime liar."

BERMAN: But at what point --

BASH: His credibility is -- is absolutely on the line.

BERMAN: It's not nothing, though, when a guy who has been the personal fixer, and the lawyer, and right-hand person for Donald Trump for a decade, the person that we all saw first when we ever wanted to talk to, you know, then Donald Trump; it's not nothing if he comes out and testifies publicly under oath to all these details that we may not have heard.

CAMEROTA: I agree. I just think that that's what we'll hear the Republican chorus say.

TOOBIN: Yes. But remember what prosecutors always say when they call cooperating witnesses who are terrible, who are criminals. And defense attorneys say, "How can you believe him? He's a liar. He's a criminal."

The -- the prosecutor always says, "We didn't pick this witness. The defendant picked this witness. He's the one who was best friends with this fellow for 10 years. If he's so terrible, why was Donald Trump working with him so closely for 10 years?"

So the idea that you can somehow dismiss everything he says, you know, without corroboration, I wouldn't go overboard on that -- on that concept. I mean, it is significant to have someone who was so close to the president testify under oath.

CAMEROTA: That's a good one. That's a convincing, compelling argument, Jeffrey. TOOBIN: You know, believe me, I didn't invent it. Every prosecutor

learns that in prosecuting.

CAMEROTA: Go ahead, David.

GREGORY: That doesn't mean that he wasn't -- you know, he's not out for himself. And that's why the corroboration becomes important, given that he's already lied to Congress once. So what's he going to do this time?

I have a question that I think is something to put out on the table, which is to Dana's point, if we get information, if he testifies and says, "Look, the president made me lie to Congress," if that's obstruction of justice; and then there's a report from Mueller that details other aspects of obstruction of justice that are not charged an as crime, that, to me, goes to the same critical question, as what's going to come to light publicly from this report? Is there anything that comes out?

We've been talking the last couple of segments about Rod Rosenstein saying, you know, if you're not charged with a crime, then American citizens have a right to not have that revealed publicly. So I think that's an interesting part of what -- of what Cohen testifies to.

TOOBIN: Huge. Can we talk about Rod Rosenstein?

BERMAN: Go for it.

TOOBIN: Because I think -- you know, people who haven't come -- who are new to -- new this hour, Rosenstein gave a speech yesterday where he talked about the principle of, if you're not charged, the government says nothing. The clear implication being that the Mueller report will not include anything about people who were not charged, including and especially Donald Trump.

What makes that so bizarre is that Donald Trump is president of the United States. There is a Justice Department policy that says he can't be indicted. So, is Rosenstein saying, well, A, he can't be indicted and, B, if you're not indicted, you can't say anything about the person? So that means we can't hear anything about Donald Trump?

CAMEROTA: And also --

[07:15:08] TOOBIN: That would be a bizarre scenario.

CAMEROTA: It's also awfully convenient that now they're going to enforce the rule of not putting out any derogatory information.

BASH: Well, that's now.

CAMEROTA: Where we know that all these committees, from Judiciary on down --

BASH: Right

CAMEROTA: -- have gotten hundreds of thousands of pages of transparency that they've asked for on people who were not indicted, like Andrew McCabe, Hillary Clinton. I could go on.

BASH: Absolutely. But it's a reaction to that. I mean, the way I read what Rod Rosenstein said was we're not going to have a James Comey situation here. Fall of 2016 or summer of 2016, he goes out and gives a press conference and says, "I'm not going to indict Hillary Clinton, but here are all the 10 reasons why she's a horrible person."

TOOBIN: So Donald Trump wins both ways. They trash Hillary Clinton. They don't --

(CROSSTALK)

BERMAN: I was going to say.

BASH: This wouldn't be the first time that Donald Trump has --

BERMAN: Hang on a second. There's three separate issues.

BASH: -- won. Many ways.

BERMAN: No. 1, what Comey did when he was running the FBI before the election, and that's one thing that people will point to. There is what DOJ did since Donald Trump has been president in turning over documents to these various congressional committees, sometimes reluctantly.

But they have turned them over a lot of things that have become public through subpoenas and through discussions with Bob Goodlatte and Trey Gowdy when they were there.

And then there's the third issue, which is that, if the president can't be charged, then are they basically saying, "We're not going to give you anything, you know, full stop." I mean, there are three separate bars there.

GREGORY: And --

TOOBIN: And -- Sorry, go ahead, David.

CAMEROTA: Go ahead, David.

GREGORY: I was going to say, and the one difference is between Comey and this situation, is that this involves the independent counsel.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

GREGORY: And the president here goes back to the impeachment of President Clinton and the Starr report and what was released. And there does seem to be a reaction to that, which could be a minimalist reaction to what's actually released to Congress and released publicly. But that's separate from guidelines that, in Comey's case, it says if you're not going to charge somebody, then you don't talk about it. This is, I think, a different case.

BERMAN: And we have the whole FISA documents. We have all the stuff on Carter Page, which Republicans demanded. You know, Carter Page hasn't been charged with anything. You know, so again, that's you know --

CAMEROTA: You all remember him.

BERMAN: So remember that, the bar is there for that.

CAMEROTA: Yes, so Jeffrey, I mean, that's the point, is that they now seem to be applying a different rule about derogatory information.

TOOBIN: That's right.

And -- and also, the regulation of the special counsel regulation was written in response to the Starr report.

BASH: Exactly.

TOOBIN: The Starr report was perceived, especially by Democrats, that too much information came out. So they wrote this regulation, which actually suggests a very narrow scope for the report by the special counsel.

If, in fact, it is a narrow scope, and it's written somewhat ambiguously, that may wind up limiting what Democrats want to know about Donald Trump. So fighting the last war is often problematic, because you never know where the next war is going to take place.

BERMAN: All right. Jeffrey, Dana, David, thank you very much.

Stand by for a second, because joining us now is Jim Himes, Democrat from Connecticut who sits on the House Intelligence Committee. That committee will speak to Michael Cohen on -- what is today? Today is Tuesday. Friday -- no, Thursday.

REP. JIM HIMES (D), CONNECTICUT: Thursday.

BERMAN: Thursday you get your chance with Michael Cohen. And Congressman, if I can, I want to talk about some of the new information we're getting about what Michael Cohen and his team say will be part of the testimony over the next three days.

They say they will testify, he will testify to the president's role in crimes that Michael Cohen has pleaded guilty to. What do you think that means?

HIMES: Well, it could mean just about anything. I mean, remember, this was the president's right-hand guy both in and out of office. And so we're particularly interested, the Congress, that is to say, we're particularly interested in misconduct during the campaign and during the presidency.

So, you know, as you know, Michael Cohen will be going to prison for lying about the time period in which the Trump Organization was working on the Moscow tower and, of course, the president reiterating the lies about that.

So what else was being undertaken? What other sort of business was the Trump Organization doing that the White House was not being honest about disclosing?

Look, and then there's the stuff along the lines of the payment to Stormy Daniels and the other individual. You know, there's a lot of stuff out there that might not have been of interest to the special counsel because of the narrow mandate that the special counsel has that could be pretty embarrassing for the president.

And I will tell you that I suspect most of that can come out in the open session that will be held in front of the Oversight Committee on Wednesday, as opposed to the session on Thursday, because this is not classified stuff.

BERMAN: Do you have reason to believe that Donald Trump was involved with crimes that Michael Cohen has pleaded guilty to? Was Donald Trump involved in those crimes when he was president of the United States?

HIMES: Well, that's the interesting question, right? A very relevant question for -- for the Congress. You know, did conversations about the payoffs to the two individuals, did those conversations continue? As you asked in the earlier segment, did the president encourage Michael Cohen to lie? Did he have other people reach out to Michael Cohen?

[07:20:08] The president has, of course, publicly via Twitter, criticized and attacked Michael Cohen. Did that happen privately? And if so, yes, of course, there's a long list of things that, if this was -- you know, if this was somebody being investigated in this criminal realm, would look really, really bad to a prosecutor, to a judge and to a jury. And so, of course, we'll be interested in hearing about all of that.

BERMAN: Do you believe Michael Cohen?

HIMES: Well, you know, we're at a point now, it's sort of hard to answer that question with an unequivocal yes, right? Because he's going to jail for lying to my committee.

But we are at a point now where this is a guy with nothing to lose. It's not like he's -- he's certainly not on the list of people that could anticipate the possibility of a pardon from the president. He's going to jail because of his dishonesty. When when you look at this rogue's gallery of people that the president surrounded himself, you know, whether it was Paul Manafort or Papadopoulos, or Michael Cohen or whoever it is, the president did not surround himself with good and decent people.

So there's always that question mark. And of course, you can bet that that will be center stage for the Republicans, who will spend, I'm sure, the day making precisely the point you just made, which is, you know, this isn't a Boy Scout.

BERMAN: Let me play you something that the deputy attorney general, Rod Rosenstein, said yesterday. This was a public forum, and he was talking about the broad notion of transparency, perhaps the idea that DOJ should release information about people who aren't charged with crimes. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROD ROSENSTEIN, U.S. DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL: There's a knee-jerk reaction that suggests that we should be transparent about what we do in government. But there are a lot of reasons not to be transparent about what we do in government. If we aren't prepared to prove our case beyond a reasonable doubt in court, then we have no business making allegations against American citizens.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: Now, some people took this to be some statement laying the groundwork for not getting the details of what Robert Mueller has found out, if in fact, he's not charging anyone with a crime.

The chairman of your committee, Adam Schiff, responded to this, saying, "For two years I sounded the alarm with DOJ's deviation from just that principle, as it turned over hundreds of thousands of pages in closed or ongoing investigations. I warned that the DOJ would need to live by this precedent, and it will."

Exactly what precedent is the chairman talking about there?

HIMES: Well, so what Adam is talking about there is the fact, and I think you mentioned it in the previous segment, that in their mad pursuit for all of these conspiracy theories that somehow the Clinton investigation was not done correctly, that the Carter Page investigation somehow involved FISA abuse, all charges that have absolutely no merit to them.

Devin Nunes, Bob Goodlatte, Trey Gowdy and others, on a weekly basis, were demanding investigative work material from the Department of Justice. Every week they were saying, "We want to look at this FISA affidavit. We want to look at this. We want to look at that."

And the Department of Justice, much to our chagrin, said yes. I mean, they resisted from time to time, but they said, yes. And so now, you know, in something that's of profound interest to the American public and to our politics, they're in a pretty tough place if they want to say no.

You know, I'll also point out -- and again, we'll be arguing about the Comey decision to both go public with the decision not to charge Hillary Clinton but Hillary -- but Jim Comey didn't just announce the decision not to charge Hillary Clinton. Presumably, he did that, because he thought there was a broader public interest. He then castigated her and said the practices were not practices that would be tolerated in other offices.

And so, look, we have crossed a couple of Rubicons here, and we are talking about something in which the American public and our politics have a profound interest in getting to the truth.

BERMAN: So the Comey thing is one thing during the campaign. The turnover of documents and the request for documents during the Trump presidency is another. And you just noted, to your chagrin, those requests were made and those documents were turned over. Will you suspend that chagrin now, though? It seems to me you were upset about it then but now you won't be?

HIMES: Well, no, I think the larger issue, John, is not what precedent was set, because that was not a good precedent. The larger issue is this one: We're arguing about a semantic point here. Right? Gosh, can the president be indicted?

The Department of Justice says no. Therefore, it's sort of a logical truism that, if he can't be indicted, any crimes that ordinarily would lead to an indictment but didn't, that shouldn't be exposed.

But remember, and here's the key point. There is a reason the president cannot be indicted, and that is that there is a different mechanism to bring accountability to the president of the United States, and of course, that is set out in the Constitution and happens in this building. That is impeachment.

And remember, impeachment does not mean the president will be kicked out of office. Impeachment is a trial in the House of Representatives. That is the constitutional venue in which, if you believe, as the Department of Justice does, that a president can't be indicted, that is where things get tried.

And Mueller and the attorney general need to remember that if -- it's perfectly possible that there are crimes that are not indictable, but that Congress could legitimately want to consider in an impeachment scenario; and they would be wildly overstepping their constitutional role if they decided, no, this misbehavior actually isn't impeachable. That's for the Congress to decide.

[07:25:13] BERMAN: Congressman Jim Himes, thanks for being with us this morning.

HIMES: Thank you, John.

BERMAN: Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: John, wait until you hear this story. Nearly 200 people are trapped on a train as we speak. They --

BERMAN: Now?

CAMEROTA: Yes, as we speak. They have not moved for more than 35 hours. This is in Oregon. We're going to talk to someone who is on board that train with what's happening on there at this hour.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BERMAN: Pope Francis calls the child sex abuse conviction of one of his close advisors, Cardinal George Pell, painful and shocking. A Vatican statement says Pell will keep his title of Vatican treasurer until all appeals have been exhausted but Pell won't be allowed to practice his ministry in public and must not come into contact with minors.

In December, an Australian jury found the 77-year-old guilty of sexually assaulting two boys in the mid-1990s. A judge just lifted a court order banning media reports about the trial. Pell's lawyers say they will appeal.

CAMEROTA: Nearly 200 people are stuck on a train in Oregon as we speak. And they have been stuck since Sunday.