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Cohen Testifying Today; Cohen Gives Financial Statements; Cohen Testifies on WikiLeaks. Aired 8:30-9a ET

Aired February 27, 2019 - 08:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:30:00] GLORIA BORDER, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: They never thought they were going to win this election. The president, as a candidate, was using this to market his brand. And use the word infomercial to Michael Cohen, saying, well, you know, this is really good for us.

On the legal side, and here's where the problems really are, he makes the case very clearly, which, by the way, we have not heard from the special counsel. So, again, this is Mr. Cohen's testimony, that Mr. Trump knew from Roger Stone in advance about the WikiLeaks dump. And he describes, you know, a conversation that Trump and Roger Stone had on the speakerphone, which he was there for, where Stone said, look, I just got off the phone with Julian Assange and he said that within a couple of days there's going to be a massive dump of e-mails that are going to provide damage to Hillary Clinton. And then he said that Trump said something to the effect of, wouldn't that be great.

And he also, and, again, this is a legal issue. He also describes in the Oval Office Michael Cohen walks into the Oval Office for the first time after the president's been elected. I believe it's in February. And he's inspired by it. And the president makes the points to him, don't worry, you've got two checks coming to you. And, of course, that's referring to the hush money the president said he knew nothing about to pay off his former mistresses.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: And, again, and you see evidence of that, that Michael Cohen will produce, including this check.

BORGER: Yes, his check.

CAMEROTA: Well, why not all the other checks. If there's 11 of them, why not produce all of them?

BERMAN: It's a great question.

BORGER: Seriously.

BERMAN: It's a great question. We know that there is a second check he will produce.

CAMEROTA: Right. But he says in his testimony there are 11.

BERMAN: There are 11.

BORGER: There is no memo on that check, right?

BERMAN: There is no memo.

BORGER: I mean we've seen --

CAMEROTA: That would have been helpful.

BORGER: Unfortunately, there isn't any.

CAMEROTA: Hush money payment to porn star. That issue --

BERMAN: There's no memo.

BORGER: Right. None of that.

BERMAN: But there is a date.

BORGER: Right.

BERMAN: And it is August 1, 2017, when Donald Trump was president of the United States.

BORGER: Of the United States. Absolutely.

Joining us for the first time this morning is also Dana Bash. So we wanted to give Dana a chance to weigh in.

Again, you woke up, like the rest of us, to this remarkable 20 pages. We've heard dribs and drabs of some of this. We had some preview of what he was going to say. But here it is, Dana, in print.

What jumps out to you?

DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, let me just tell you a couple things that I have been told via text by somebody who is familiar with what the president's legal team is thinking and how they're going to approach this.

The first is just on what I certainly considered the most explosive when it comes to the core of the Mueller investigation, which is Russia collusion, the fact that Cohen says he was listening in on the conversation, because it was on speakerphone, with the now president and Roger Stone about WikiLeaks. I mean that's about as close as it comes except for the Trump Tower meeting to potential collusion, knowing ability the Russians meddling in the election.

Here's the but that they throw out there, which I'm sure we're going to hear much more publicly later. Who are the characters we're hear -- we're talking about now. We're talking about -- put the president aside -- Michael Cohen and Roger Stone. Roger Stone at least said publicly that he has testified under oath that that did not happen. So is there corroboration?

Now, Michael Cohen talks about the fact that the call was put through by Donald Trump's secretary. Maybe she can corroborate. Did she listen in on the call or did she just put the call through? We don't know the answer to that or whether we will be left with -- and more importantly federal investigators will be left with, Mueller will be left with, he said/he said by two people who are not the most credible of witnesses.

CAMEROTA: Jeffrey, let's talk about the legal jeopardy here. I know that you want to talk about Deutsche Bank. One more thing I just want to read from page 11 here in what Michael Cohen will apparently swear to today. I'm giving the committee today three years of President Trump's financial statements from 2011 through 2013, which he gave to Deutsche Bank to inquire about a loan to buy the Buffalo Bills and to Forbes. These are -- these exhibits. It was my experience that Mr. Trump inflated his total assets when it served his purposes, such as trying to be listed among the wealthiest people in Forbes and deflated his assets to reduce his real estate taxes.

So the financial statements will be interesting.

Jeffrey, tell us about the legal exposure that you see.

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN CHIEF LEGAL ANALYST: Well, this paragraph really jumped out at me as a former prosecutor. Because let's put aside the Forbes issue. You know, Forbes comes out with a list of the richest people in the world. Donald Trump wanted to be on that list. It's no crime to lie to journalists. So that is legally insignificant.

However, if you apply for a loan and submit a knowingly false financial statement, that's bank fraud. That is a classic bank fraud. That gets prosecuted all the time in the federal courts. So if Michael Cohen can produce a false statement -- you know, financial statements that can be proven to be false and they were submitted to Deutsche Bank to get a loan, even if you didn't get the loan because, as we know, Donald Trump did not wind up buying the Buffalo Bills. But if you apply for a loan and ask for a loan with a false financial statement that you know to be false, that's a crime and that certainly jumped out -- jumped out at me in here.

[08:35:39] Now, it's not the only crime that is described in here. But it is -- it is one that I am sure prosecutors will be -- will be look into.

BERMAN: All right, friends, stand by for one second. We're going to take a quick break.

And when we come back, this I the question I will pose to Joe Lockhart, former White House press secretary.

CAMEROTA: A tease.

BERMAN: What's going on inside the White House or around the president on a day like today where there's about to be this event which is completely beyond their control? How do they feel about this?

More of CNN's breaking news coverage, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:40:05] BERMAN: We're just about an hour away from when Michael Cohen, the president's former lawyer, testifies in public before the House Oversight Committee. We have this explosive look at his prepared testimony, which raises all kind of new questions.

I want to bring back Jeffrey Toobin, Gloria Borger, Dana Bash and Joe Lockhart to discuss.

And, Joe, the question that I raised before the break was this, you've been inside a White House facing scandal before. Michael Cohen, what he says out loud today to the American people and the world, the White House has no control over that.

JOE LOCKHART, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Right.

BERMAN: So how do they deal with this?

LOCKHART: Well, you know, we went through this a couple times in the Clinton administration. The video deposition was released while the president was addressing the United Nations. The day the president was impeached was also the day we finish prosecuting that airstrike against Iraq.

What they should do is just keep their head down, stay after this, and say, we're doing the people's business. What we're doing here is more important than what happens in the swamp of Washington. And just go on.

CAMEROTA: Isn't that what they're doing? I mean from what you've seen this morning, isn't that what they're doing with these meetings with Kim Jong-un?

LOCKHART: Well, not really. Not really. Because the president's already tweeted. He's -- you know, if you look at his tweets over the last 48 hours, he can't resist injecting himself into this. And it undercuts the strategy of, I'm being the president. They're being politician. So their big Achilles heel through this whole thing has been the president's lack of impulse control, his, you know, his desire to get in, and his -- and his bullying kind of way and make his case. So it's very hard for them to prosecute a strategy that was similar to what I think some people have done in some other, you know, presidential scandals.

CAMEROTA: Gloria Borger, you've already seen inconsistencies between what Michael Cohen is going to publically under oath testify to --

BORGER: Yes.

CAMEROTA: According to his big, written statement, and what has been reported about what President Trump has said to investigators.

BORGER: Well, CNN did a story, in fact, it was -- Dana was a part of that story, saying that the president denied to Mueller in writing that Roger Stone told him anything about WikiLeaks. And AP did another story in which they interviewed the president. Let me -- let me read you exactly what the president said then. He said, when WikiLeaks came out, never heard of WikiLeaks. Never heard of it. All I was saying is, well, look, if all this information is out there, this is pretty good stuff.

And what Michael Cohen is saying is, uh-huh, I was sitting there while he was having this conversation with Roger. And Roger Stone said to him, I spoke with Julian, this stuff is coming out. And the president said, wouldn't that be great? So --

CAMEROTA: Yes, Gloria, just to stop you for a moment.

BORGER: Yes.

CAMEROTA: We're watching Michael Cohen arrive on Capitol Hill just moments ago. He is carrying documents with him. He seems to be in a relaxed stance.

BERMAN: He's smiling. There were smiles there. He's hobnobbing with the Capitol Hill Police who are walking him in.

BORGER: You know, I can say that I think this is a moment for Michael Cohen that actually he has wanted for quite some time. He has said, I'm not going to be the villain in this. I changed my mind. He always uses the date, July 2, 2018, was my independence day. And I think in a way this is so cathartic for him that even despite, you know, Matt Gaetz's tweet and the threats he says he's gotten from the president and the strain on his family, I think this is something he actually wants to do and sees this as a moment in history for himself and for the country and is full of remorse as you can read from the opening statement.

BERMAN: He'll have a couple years of quite to think about what he does today.

BORGER: Yes, he will.

BERMAN: Jeffrey Toobin, to the point that Gloria raised that Michael Cohen is going to testify he heard this conversation. President Trump has said in, you know, written statements that the conversation didn't happen. Both of these things can't be true.

BASH: Exactly.

BERMAN: So, legally, Jeffrey, where does this go?

TOOBIN: Well, and it's also worth pointing out that Roger Stone denies that it happened.

BASH: Exactly.

TOOBIN: Roger Stone says, first of all, he's never spoken to Julian Assange in his life. And, second, he never told Donald Trump anything about WikiLeaks. Period. I mean, I, you know, he sometimes says, well, I don't remember telling anything to the president or candidate Trump about WikiLeaks. But by and large he denies that this conversation took place. So you have three people --

BASH: Right. TOOBIN: Who are a party to this alleged conversation, Stone, Trump,

and Cohen, and two of them deny that it took place. Now, you could argue that they are the ones who have motives to lie about it and Cohen now has the motive to tell the truth. But in the absence of further corroboration, I don't know where you go -- where prosecutors go with this, frankly.

[08:45:09] BASH: Right. And, again, that is already what I am hearing from people who are associated with the Trump legal team this morning, that exact point. You have three people, two of whom are saying this didn't happen. One -- or at least two of them claim that they have said this -- people around them have said that they said this under oath. So unless there's corroboration, you can't prove it.

BERMAN: None of those three --

BORGER: Well, and the special counsel didn't -- did not use this.

But, don't forget, one of them wants a pardon. Roger Stone. One of them is in the position to give it. And Michael Cohen is going to jail. So the question is -- the question --

TOOBIN: What a crew. Wow. Yes.

BORGER: So the question -- yes, but the question is, who has more motive to be truthful? I -- Cohen has nothing to lose at this point, quite honestly. He could get a reduction in sentence, I suppose, Jeffrey. But I think, you know, I think Roger Stone is still looking at that pardon from the president.

CAMEROTA: Very quickly, Joe.

LOCKHART: And on the corroboration, let's not forget that a counterintelligence investigation was opened in the FBI during the campaign. We don't know what corroboration came out of that. We don't know what phone records, what e-mail records, what, you know, intercepts. We don't -- we just don't know. We won't know until Mueller comes out. So we may get an answer to this. We may -- it may be unanswered.

BERMAN: We do know that none of those three people that were named there are in the honesty hall of fame. I will say, there are no busts of any of them.

CAMEROTA: There will be no medals today given.

BASH: No.

CAMEROTA: Thank you all very much.

We will have much more on CNN's breaking news coverage next. Stick around.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:50:48] CAMEROTA: OK, more breaking news on a very busy morning. Just moments ago, Michael Cohen arrived on Capitol Hill for his highly

anticipated testimony before Congress. You see him, I'd say strolling, in. He looks rather relaxed. He's carrying a stack of documents with him.

BERMAN: His shoulders look good.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

We are back with Gloria Borger, Dana Bash and Joe Lockhart.

Joe, you were just saying that with the release of these 20 pages of Michael Cohen's sworn testimony that he's about to give, it moves fully into the political realm. Haven't we been in the political realm of dissecting all of this?

LOCKHART: Well, I think -- I think we've been in a sort of legal -- quasi-legal political realm. Now we have -- I mean I think objectively you have grounds to at least open an impeachment process to see whether the president's committed a high crime or misdemeanor. As Jackie Speier said, that's whatever Congress decides, you know? And in 1998, it was an inappropriate relationship with an intern. It could -- it could be anything.

I think, politically, I don't think the Democrats want to impeach. It will unite Republicans. It levels the playing field, I think, for Trump. I think they would rather this just go on. I think, politically, this is a disaster for Trump to have all of these things just hanging over.

It is a very powerful argument that a Democrat can make and should make in 2020 that this guy was elected by conspiracy with the Russians to defraud the American public. He has done all of these things. Let's let the voters decide as opposed to, let's, you know, have an impeachment trial and hearing. It's very hard.

But you're going to see from Democrats this pull because they also think he's a danger to the country.

BERMAN: Dana, I think that was you I heard before.

BASH: Yes, it was. And I just want to underscore the timing difference that Joe's alluding to there. When Joe dealt with this under President Clinton, he was in his second term.

LOCKHART: Exactly.

BASH: The voters didn't have another chance to decide.

BORGER: Right.

BASH: Now they do. And that is a major, major political difference in the Democrats' calculation. And in Democrat after Democrat I talk to about this, that is where they are sort of twisting and turning about how to deal with it, exactly as Joe laid out so well, because they understand from history and just from seeing very -- on a very different level, for example, what happened with Brett Kavanaugh and they attribute a lot of the Democratic losses in red states to backlash against Kavanaugh -- against Democrats over what happened to Kavanaugh.

Imagine it it's not Kavanaugh but the actual president.

BORGER: Right.

BASH: It would make that look kind of minor, politically speaking.

BERMAN: Right.

BASH: But, on the other hand, you know, they have a lot of pressure from the left to say, wait a minute, you -- this is why we elected you. This is why we put you in the majority in the House to hold this president accountable and look at the things, never mind the Mueller report, laid out by his former fixer.

BERMAN: Hey, Gloria.

BORGER: Yes.

BERMAN: If we can, in the last minute -- we've got about a minute left --

BORGER: OK.

BERMAN: I want you to bring us inside this hearing room today because we know the Republicans -- Jim Jordan is the ranking member of this committee. They are just going to hammer at Michael Cohen.

BORGER: Yes, they're going to --

BERMAN: What's that going to look like? And I think there's also some strategy in Michael Cohen releasing this beforehand, getting all this information out, just because he knows he's going to be hit hard.

BORGER: Sure. Yes, remember -- remember Jim Comey was the first one who kind of did that and it worked for him before his testimony.

Look, you have Jim Jordan. You have his very good friend Matt Gaetz, who is not on the committee, who tweeted that ridiculous tweet last night and then had to pull it back, but has asked to actually be someone who can ask a question. He wants to -- he wants to kind of crash the committee.

And I think it's going to get ugly because what you have in a lot of Michael Cohen's testimony is insight into how the president operates. And I think they're going to push back really hard on what did you know specifically. For example, he says in his testimony, Mr. Trump did not directly tell me to lie to Congress, period. He says, that's not how he operates. And then he went on and on and said he would look at me in the eye and say there's no business in Russia, when, of course, they both knew there was business pending in Russia, and that -- and then he would say, go out and tell the American people the same thing. So, in his way, he was telling me to lie. [08:55:17] At some point the Republicans are going to say, he never

told you to lie. You're just assuming this and the American people can't assume it and you're assuming it because you want to get Donald Trump.

BERMAN: All right, Gloria, Dana, Joe, thank you all very much for being with us this morning and thank you for this remarkable three hours of walking through these remarkable 20 pages.

CAMEROTA: It has been quite a morning here. And CNN's special coverage with Jake Tapper and Wolf Blitzer will pick up after this very quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

END