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Trump Remarks on Cohen Testimony; Interview With Rep. John Sarbanes (D-MD); Trump Fails to Secure Deal With Kim Jong-un. Aired 3- 3:30p ET

Aired February 28, 2019 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:52]

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: We're back. You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin. Thank you for being with me.

For the past couple of days, Michael Cohen has been a fixture in Washington, D.C., shuttling between the House and the Senate, while giving Congress an up-close look at his decade working at the top of the Trump empire.

And, today, that all comes to an end, after Cohen finishes testifying before the House Intelligence Committee. And while he may be behind closed doors today, Cohen is clearly still top of mind for his former boss, who took a moment to weigh in on this whole spectacle from thousands of miles away at a summit in Vietnam with Kim Jong-un.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: He lied a lot. But it was very interesting because he didn't lie about one thing. He said no collusion with the Russian hoax. And I said, I wonder why he didn't just lie about that, too, like he did about everything else?

I mean, he lied about so many different things. And I was actually impressed that he didn't say, well, I think there was collusion for this reason or that. He didn't say that. He said no collusion. And I was getting a little impressed by that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Democratic Congressman John Sarbanes is a member of the House Oversight Committee. He questioned Michael Cohen yesterday.

Congressman Sarbanes, welcome. Good to have you on.

REP. JOHN SARBANES (D), MARYLAND: Thank you. Good to be here.

BALDWIN: So from all that you heard during that testimony, what do you consider an indisputable crime?

SARBANES: Well, there was a couple of things, obviously, that we touched on in the -- in the committee hearing.

There clearly seems to be evidence that the president knew about these e-mails being released ahead of time. So I think that's an area of inquiry that needs to be pursued. There's clearly some concern about how the testimony that Michael Cohen put together before his appearance before the Intelligence Committee, when he lied to Congress, how that came together, who knew about it at the White House, and obviously these hush payments to Stephanie Clifford, AKA Stormy Daniels, where he brought documentary evidence.

I think what Michael Cohen did yesterday -- and I thought his testimony was pretty compelling, just because I can't, at this point, think of any reason why he would lie, what he has to gain at this point by lying -- is that he just put more information the table.

And we now have the oversight machinery working in the House of Representatives, which was not the case a few months ago, before Democrats got the gavel. So we're in a position to follow up on some of his testimony and do further inquiry and investigation and, as Congressman Cummings, the chairman, said, get to the truth.

BALDWIN: So I jotted down potential indisputable crimes on the e-mail dump that it sounds like the president was aware of, the testimony in which he lied, and the conversations he may have had ahead of time on that, and then the hush money.

But what I didn't hear you mention is the inflating or deflating of his -- of his money. And so, in your view, if that is corroborated, should President Trump be prosecuted for bank fraud?

SARBANES: Well, those potential instances are issues of fraud or other ones that we're going to look at.

We don't want to get ahead of ourselves here, because I want to -- I want to say, again, it's only just now, because we have the oversight capacity and authority in the Congress to really do this job well, that we can get moving on these various lines of inquiry.

So we need to do this in a very deliberate and steady way, so that, wherever it takes us, we have confidence that we have arrived in the right place in terms of what the remedy should be.

BALDWIN: Listening to Michael Cohen yesterday as well, he dropped a lot of names. And so my question to you is, who specifically do you think should be summoned to your committee now to testify?

SARBANES: Again, I don't want to prejudge that.

The committee is going to pull together all of the information from yesterday. And, actually, they're going to compare that to evidence that's already been collected from other witnesses, other documents, other subpoenas and other kinds of things out there.

[15:05:10]

And they will judge, who are the best people to bring in to corroborate something, to potentially contradict it, et cetera? So this was really a first step in this oversight responsibility that we have, an important first step and an important witness to bring forward, because he obviously has a lot of knowledge about how the Trump operation functions, what Trump world looks like, et cetera.

So he gave the committee, I think, some important information that we can now build on going forward.

BALDWIN: Great. Congressman John Sarbanes, thank you so much for weighing in here.

And just in case there was any doubt inside that hearing room and really elsewhere about what Donald Trump knew and when, Michael Cohen did his best to eliminate them.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. RAJA KRISHNAMOORTHI (D), ILLINOIS: And nothing at the Trump Organization was ever done unless it was run through President Donald Trump, correct?

MICHAEL COHEN, FORMER ATTORNEY/FIXER FOR DONALD TRUMP: That's 100 percent certain.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Sarah Coyne and Berit Berger were both former federal prosecutors in New York.

And so, ladies, good to have both of you on. Let's get to it.

So, obviously, Cohen was talking a lot about the Trump businesses. CNN has learned multiple Hill committees will be splitting up the various crimes that Cohen alleged. I mentioned with the congressman this notion of inflating or deflating the income and could that constitute tax or bank fraud?

What -- where is he most exposed?

SARAH COYNE, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Yes, I think you're on the right track.

To me, what was most compelling and interesting is the inflation and deflation of the same assets, depending on who the audience is. And that typically leads to a filing of a false submission, an application or something that can't be cross-examined.

And I would expect prosecutors to be trying to find those inconsistencies among his records and his public filings going forward.

BALDWIN: Same question to you.

BERIT BERGER, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Yes, I think she's exactly right.

And I think Congresswoman Ocasio-Cortez really laid out a nice road map yesterday.

BALDWIN: Whoever is helping -- and she too, I'm sure -- but I mean, the way she maps it out is perfect.

(CROSSTALK)

BERGER: Yes, it was so nice.

(CROSSTALK)

BERGER: ... sort of like concise questioning.

BALDWIN: Yes.

BERGER: She really laid out this road map of not only what type of documents they would want to get, but other witnesses that they should bring in.

And I think that's really where the concern is here for the president and people in his orbit. It's not necessarily what Michael Cohen said, but these other people that are going to be called in to testify.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: That is why I was just asking the congressman. I understand he doesn't want to get ahead of himself, but there were a number of names mentioned, right, including even the president's own son having signed one of those checks paying back the hush money, according to Michael Cohen.

COYNE: And when you have corporate executives that commit fraud, it's often very hard to pin it on the top executive, because they're insulated, and they have other people below them. And they can say, I didn't know what he was doing.

BALDWIN: Totally.

COYNE: When you have a family-owned, privately held, close corporation with a small inner circle, I think you can expect there will be a lot of pressure on that inner circle.

BALDWIN: Yes.

This morning, the chairman of the Oversight Committee said his panel will look into Trump's role in the hush money payments. But, obviously, Trump is president. So how would he even be prosecuted? What would that -- play it forward. What would that look like?

BERGER: Yes, I mean, I think we can say with some degree of confidence now that it's not likely that the president is going to be indicted for these crimes.

I mean, I think the DOJ policy, while it's not written in the Constitution, I think that that, you know, has stood the test of time for a while now, and safe to say that he won't be indicted.

However, Congress does have the authority, if they feel like they have enough evidence that the president committed some kind of high crime or misdemeanor, to move forward and some sort of impeachment proceedings.

I don't know that we're there yet, but I think Cohen's testimony was sort of one data point in that analysis, sort of one little building block as they're trying to put together a case to see if they actually have the goods.

BALDWIN: Yes.

Allen Weisselberg, a name we heard over and over, who has partial immunity, right, the CFO of Trump Org. He has immunity with regard to Cohen and SDNY and the hush money stuff.

But Cohen told investigators Weisselberg was involved in discussions on how to pay the hush money.

So this is what Chairman Elijah Cummings said after the hearing yesterday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(CROSSTALK)

MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: ... talk to Allen Weisselberg, Donald Trump Jr. in order to investigate the hush money payments Weisselberg and Donald Trump (OFF-MIKE). Do you need to talk to them?

REP. ELIJAH CUMMINGS (D), MARYLAND: We probably -- yes, we probably will.

There are certain areas we have got to be careful with, because special counsel, Southern District of New York and others have basically said that they are things that they are looking into. There's a number of areas that we couldn't even get into and didn't get into that they're looking into.

This is -- I think that there are still a number of shoes to drop.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: So on the number of shoes to drop, right, and so many people obviously have been making such a huge deal, rightfully so, about Mueller and potential collusion and et cetera, et cetera.

But, really, isn't this about finances, SDNY?

[15:10:01]

COYNE: It's about New York.

BALDWIN: It's about New York?

COYNE: Absolutely.

And you know that maybe Trump can't be prosecuted, but the organization, the Trump Organization, can be. And it derives its liability for any crimes from the people who act within it. So, that's well within the prospects, I think, for the Southern District or the attorney general of New York.

BALDWIN: Quickly, are you surprised? And I know Allen Weisselberg, presumably, maybe he's giving them all they need and they don't need to raid Trump Org., but does it surprise you that they haven't done that?

BERGER: I mean, my guess is that they have gotten a lot of documents in some sort of a cooperative way. They have probably subpoenaed a lot of things.

BALDWIN: Yes.

BERGER: I mean, just because there hasn't been sort of FBI raids at the crack of dawn...

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Doesn't mean they're not getting a lot.

BERGER: Exactly. I think there's been a lot of behind the scenes.

BALDWIN: Berit, Sarah, thank you, ladies, so much.

COYNE: Thank you. Nice to see you.

BALDWIN: Much more to discuss, including Michael Cohen's claim that he fears President Trump would never allow a peaceful transition of power if he loses in 2020.

But first, no deal in North Korea. President Trump walks away from Kim Jong-un without signing any agreements.

And moments ago, North Korea laid out new terms that would bring them back to the table.

You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:15:28]

BALDWIN: Sometimes, you have to walk. That's the word from President Trump leaving Vietnam earlier than expected and without reaching a deal with Kim Jong-un.

President Trump and the North Korean leader had a scheduled signing ceremony for earlier today. But the president was advised to walk away when Kim demanded the removal of all sanctions leveled against beyond Pyongyang.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Basically, they wanted the sanctions lifted in their entirety. And we couldn't do that. They were willing to de-nuke a large portion of the areas that we wanted. But we couldn't give up all of the sanctions for that.

You always have to be prepared to walk. I could have signed an agreement today, and then you people would have said, oh, what a terrible deal, what a terrible thing he did. No, you have to be prepared to walk.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: North Korea's foreign minister just held this rare news conference claiming Kim only wanted partial lifting of sanctions.

CNN political analyst Josh Rogin is a columnist over at "The Washington Post."

And so, Josh, all right, so that's how North Korea is seeing it now, but a lot of people are calling this a loss or a failure for the U.S. But Speaker Pelosi actually says she's glad Trump walked away. How do you see it? Sigh of relief that nothing, no crazy concessions were made?

JOSH ROGIN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: The way I see it, this collapse of the Trump-Kim summit, it was a clear win for Kim Jong-un on and a clear failure for the Trump administration's diplomatic effort.

I mean, set aside for one second the fact that the U.S. and North Korea can't even agree on what they disagreed on, right? They don't even have a story that matches about what just happened. The bottom line is that no matter what the North Koreans wanted from us, the only thing they were willing to give us was the destruction of this one facility, Yongbyon.

It's like an old decaying facility that they will probably going to have to get rid of anyway.

BALDWIN: Not to mention their entire nuclear arsenal that they still have, right?

ROGIN: Right.

So, from all the reporting, it seems all -- they weren't willing to put anything on the table that showed their real sincerity for denuclearization. And of course Trump had to walk away. He's right. It would have been a very terrible deal.

But it's not as if a failure of the summit of this kind is just a wash. It's not a draw, because time is on North Korea side. And what they get is an extension of this process. And, meanwhile, while we try to figure out what to do next, they're going to keep increasing their nuclear missile capabilities. They're going to keep wiggling out of sanctions.

And Kim Jong-un on gets to parade around the world with his new international legitimacy. You might even suspect that's exactly what he wanted. A failure of the summit is good for them and bad for us.

BALDWIN: Yes. Yes. What about also the fact that we have been reporting that President

Trump's advisers warned him that a deal was unlikely? And even former diplomat on North Korea Joseph Yun says that this speaks to a lack of preparation. Do you agree?

ROGIN: It wasn't. It wasn't for a lack of trying.

I mean, Trump officials, including special envoy Steve Biegun, spent weeks trying to get the North Koreans to show a little bit more leg, to do a little bit more. And then the idea was that Trump and Kim were going to get into this room and bridge the gaps, based on Trump's personal charisma and his dealmaking ability.

Well, how did that work out, right? I mean, we're told constantly by the Trump administration that this North Korea policy has failed, we got to try a new approach, top down, based on personal relationships. OK, now we have tried that twice. All right, it's not working. OK, it's time to sort of recognize that and maybe change our approach a little bit.

If North Korea is not going to denuclearize, there are other things we can do. It's not a choice between war and this negotiation, as some say. There's another path, which is to increase the pressure to contain them and to deter them with our allies.

And the longer we wait to do that, the harder it's going to be.

BALDWIN: So what's next?

ROGIN: Well, Secretary of Pompeo assures everyone that progress is still being made.

Of course, he won't tell anybody what he's talking about. And They can continue to make progress, and sending the New York Philharmonic to Pyongyang or whatever it is that they're working on, but without progress on actual denuclearization, none of that really means anything.

So the Trump administration doesn't seem like they're out of effort yet. They're going to keep going. And they're going to keep trying to make this grand bargain with Kim Jong-un on that he doesn't seem interested in, right? He doesn't seem to buy into the fact that he can get a McDonald's in Pyongyang if he just gives up all his stuff.

So we're going to have to wait longer for this to probably fail, and then we're going to have to move to a different policy, and hopefully that policy will be better coordinated than the one we're seeing right now.

BALDWIN: I have one more question for you. This just came in as we have been talking, that the North Korean vice foreign minister just referred to Kim Jong-un negotiating with Trump.

[15:20:05]

Here's the quote: "I have felt that he may have lost the will to negotiate," he being presumably President Trump.

"I have felt that he may have lost the will." Kim Jong-un lost the will to negotiate.

ROGIN: Right.

I mean, they're playing to Trump's investment in this process. For President Trump, there's a political benefit to this, right? He wants to run on being a peacemaker. He invested in this. He's in a love affair with Kim Jong-un.

And what they're doing is, they're threatening to walk away, because that's good leverage, right? And what's President Trump doing? He's not threatening to walk away. That's bad leverage. He's promising to stay at the table.

So it's just another example of the North Koreans playing us for fools, OK, and us just going along with it. And that's smart of them, but bad for us and bad for our security and for the region.

BALDWIN: Yes, Josh Rogin, you are excellent on this. Thank you so much. Good to have you on.

ROGIN: Thank you.

BALDWIN: Coming up next, an apology from Virginia governor's office. But this time, it's actually from the first lady for handing out cotton to at least one African-American child on a tour of a slave cottage. What was going on there?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:25:53]

BALDWIN: A Virginia state employee and outraged mother claims the state's first lady, Pamela Northam, handed out cotton to her daughter and other African-American children on a governor's mansion tour and asking them to imagine being slaves being handed cotton in the field.

All this comes as her husband, embattled Governor Ralph Northam, refuses to resign over that whole scandal involving blackface. Virginia's first lady has responded.

And let me say what her side of this is: "I have provided the same educational tour to executive mansion visitors over the last few months and used a variety of artifacts and agricultural crops with the intention of illustrating a painful period of Virginia history. I regret that I have upset anyone."

The governor's office insists the cotton was distributed to everyone, not just the black children in the group, but to everyone. And the first lady's office says it has offered to apologize to the mother of the page -- this eighth-grader, but hasn't heard back.

Phillip Thompson serves on Virginia's NAACP Executive Committee.

And, Phillip, we have talked about Governor Northam. And now we're talking about the first lady here.

And first things first, it's my understanding you know this outraged mom who's making this claim. Have you spoken with her? Tell me what you know.

PHILLIP THOMPSON, NAACP EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE: No, I haven't spoken with her, but I have known her. I know her. We have met with her on several occasions dealing with issues involving equity in Virginia's school system.

It's interesting. She's a very well-educated person. And if she has a concern with this, then that must be saying something.

BALDWIN: There are -- as we pointed out, there are multiple versions of this story, right?

And, first of all, have you even been on one of these governor mansion, slave cottage tours? Has this cotton handing out bit been done before? Can you shed some light on that?

THOMPSON: I guess it has been, from what they say.

But what's interesting is that, why would you use cotton, when everyone knows the big product in Virginia was tobacco? It's just kind of -- you would think, they're so tone-deaf that they don't seem to get that, at this particular point, they're being watched very closely.

And to continue in this direction, this was a layup. And if you can miss this layup here, what are you going to do when it comes to real policies affecting African-Americans?

BALDWIN: So, you and I have talked about Governor Northam.

And, right, it was just, I don't know, a couple weeks ago that crazy news conference when his wife actually had the sense to stop her own husband from what appeared to be moonwalking, right, when he was talking about dressing in blackface as Michael Jackson.

THOMPSON: Right.

BALDWIN: This was in February. Let's just remind everyone.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

QUESTION: Are you still able to moonwalk?

PAMELA NORTHAM, WIFE OF RALPH NORTHAM: Inappropriate circumstance.

GOV. RALPH NORTHAM (D), VIRGINIA: My wife says inappropriate circumstances.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: All right, so she said that was inappropriate. Again, her office, the governor's office insists the first lady did

not single out the black kids. And one other parent in the group confirmed that to "The Washington Post," so would handing out cotton to every child in the group make it any better?

THOMPSON: No.

It doesn't make sense to even be in that -- going in that direction, when you can't get basic facts on whether the first African-Americans that arrived were slaves or indentured servants. It seems like it would be something you would stay away from.

And this is why we still believe that Governor Northam should resign. If we can't solve the issue -- if you can't get it right at the governor's mansion, how can we solve issues in other places, like in my county, where we had the runaway slave game at school?

It makes it real difficult for us to address these issues when the people at the top are continually doing this. And this is not the first incident that his wife was involved in either.

They both dressed up as Antebellum persons during Halloween. And he played his favorite slaveholding governor during Halloween, and she had on her assorted dress too, for which the NAACP did chastise them on.

But it just shows a level of tone-deafness that makes us wonder, why are we -- why is this guy still the governor of the state of Virginia?

BALDWIN: Phillip Thompson, appreciate your perspective. Thank you.

THOMPSON: Thank you.

BALDWIN: Coming up next, the top Republicans in Michael Cohen's public hearing have now asked the Department of Justice to investigate Trump's former lawyer for perjury.

We will discuss the partisan divide over the explosive testimony