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Michael Cohen Alludes To More Investigations Into President Trump; Fourth Quarter GDP Numbers Released Today; Cohen Casts Doubt On Trump's Taxes Being Under Audit; President Trump Leaves North Korea Summit Empty-Handed. Aired 5:30-6a ET
Aired February 28, 2019 - 05:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[05:31:45] ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: All right.
So, one of the moments that raised eyebrows yesterday was when Michael Cohen alluded to more investigations into President Trump that we had not previously known about.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. RAJA KRISHNAMOORTHI (D-IL), MEMBER, HOUSE COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND REFORM: Is there any other wrongdoing or illegal act that you are aware of regarding Donald Trump that we haven't yet discussed today?
MICHAEL COHEN, PRESIDENT TRUMP'S FORMER PERSONAL ATTORNEY: Yes -- and again, those are part of the investigation that's currently being looked at by the Southern District of New York.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CAMEROTA: OK. We are back with Jeff Zeleny, Jennifer Rodgers, Joe Lockhart, and John Avlon.
Jennifer Rodgers, what did that mean?
JENNIFER RODGERS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Well, we don't know. That's the tantalizing part.
I mean, you know, there are a few things he said that should cause the president and his folks around him grave concern -- this notion that there are other investigations. He said he's in constant contact with the SDNY now. He says that he wants a post-sentencing cooperation letter to eventually get out of prison sooner than three years from now. So all of these things should be keeping the president up at night.
And we're talking about not only the hush money payments, which we know is now buttoned up. They're looking into the Inaugural Committee. They have investigations, we think, into the Trump Organization, so they were talking about all sorts of corporate malfeasance, right -- tax fraud, bank fraud, accounting fraud, potentially. And, personal liability of the president in some of those some areas. He provided these Deutsch Bank financial statements where he allegedly altered his income in order to get a loan. That is bank fraud.
You're also talking about potential tax fraud with him personally. So, there are lots of areas there.
And you have to remember some of these -- like bank fraud, for example -- have a longer statute of limitations. A 10-year statute of limitations, meaning that he could be exposed even after he gets out of a second term.
So -- and a lot of these things have state corollaries, right, so the New York attorney general, the New York D.A. might look into this. We just learned that there is a subpoena from the District of Columbia attorney general here. Those can't be pardoned.
So there are all sorts of things going on. I think that that was a big revelation that they're looking into all these things that Cohen couldn't talk about, including his very last meeting with the president -- a lot of stuff.
JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Well, and they're all in a Mueller-free zone, aren't they? I mean, we expect a Mueller report soon, but what Michael Cohen just dangled right there was that there are these investigations that are going on that I know about that will not be resolved next week, no matter what Robert Mueller says.
And I do -- Jennifer alluded to there. I was struck by the fact that he was specifically asked when was the last time he talked to anyone involved or connected to the president was -- he said a couple of months after the raid but that he couldn't discuss it because it's involved with an investigation. Is that right?
JOHN AVLON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: It's stunning because that means there are additional investigations on top of 17 or so that we know that are currently ongoing.
And the key point is that if the president's sort of plan B is to just use the pardon power of the presidency to get him and his family out of trouble, that runs up against a brick wall of different jurisdictions and that's why those other investigations are so significant.
CAMEROTA: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez had a moment, Jeff, where she really tried to get to the nitty-gritty. She wasn't just sort of making a speech, she was asking for actual names and where will we find this information.
So let's play that moment of her yesterday.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ (D-NY), MEMBER, HOUSE COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND REFORM: To your knowledge, did the president ever provide inflated assets to an insurance company? COHEN: Yes.
OCASIO-CORTEZ: Who else knows that the president did this?
COHEN: Allen Weisselberg, Ron Lieberman, and Matthew Calamari.
[05:35:02] OCASIO-CORTEZ: And where would the committee find more information on this? Do you think we need to review his financial statements and his tax returns in order to compare them?
COHEN: Yes, and you'd find it at the Trump Org.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CAMEROTA: That was interesting.
JEFF ZELENY, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: It was very interesting.
I think it was also some of the most strategic questioning we heard because one of the things these long hearings always show is that some members of Congress, on both sides, aren't necessarily trying to get to the bottom of things. They use their time for other points. But I thought that was open the door to so many other things, and that was by design.
So, unclear if she came up with those questions herself or it was part of a party strategy. But I think it was very interesting because it paved the way for a lot of issues down the road.
But the president -- I was struck by his reaction to all this, we heard in Vietnam this morning. He called it a fake hearing and he went after the Democrats for having it while he was in Vietnam.
But, he said Michael Cohen was lair but he was impressed that he didn't say anything about Russian collusion.
CAMEROTA: That's confusing.
ZELENY: There's a little bit of buffet there.
(CROSSTALK)
ZELENY: But that was an interesting response, I thought, from the president.
AVLON: This is all a la carte. But, I mean -- but just credit where credit's due to AOC is that she didn't grandstand. She did ask specific questions --
ZELENY: Right.
AVLON: -- with intended follow-throughs. And so did Katie Hill, another freshman Democrat.
BERMAN: We're going to have Katie Hill at the end of the show today. AVLON: Yes, and that -- those -- that's how you should conduct yourself to actually shed more light than he.
ZELENY: Actual questions.
AVLON: Yes.
BERMAN: Questions? You mean actual questions at hearings?
CAMEROTA: They'd have listed information.
AVLON: We'd love a question.
CAMEROTA: Sorry, your words make no sense.
JOE LOCKHART, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, FORMER PRESS SECRETARY, CLINTON WHITE HOUSE: I think, though, in the -- in the un-self-aware category one of the things the Republicans did yesterday, and unwittingly, was made the case for prosecuting Donald Trump when they went after Cohen for tax evasion, bank fraud, and insurance fraud.
They kept hammering. These things disqualify things. This makes you a liar. This makes you a criminal.
When if you take a step back and you listen to AOC and how she set it up, this is exactly what the SDNY is looking at for Trump.
BERMAN: Counselor, can we ask you, since we have a lawyer at the table here, what Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez got out of Michael Cohen? Is that a legal problem for the president and if so, why? And these bank documents which show how, in Michael Cohen's words, the president inflated his net worth. Are those legal problems?
RODGERS: Well, the legal problems for the president really don't come from Congress, they come from the prosecutor. So really, none of what happened yesterday is a legal problem because the prosecutors know everything we learned yesterday and a heck of a lot more.
They have documents, they have other corroborating evidence. They've had all this stuff before. I think they have his tax returns.
So that's really the legal jeopardy. It's not with Congress. But what this allows Congress to do is dig a little deeper, right. Justify getting that stuff themselves so that they can do their oversight function and bring some of this into the public eye.
Now remember, unless there are charges, you often don't get to learn what prosecutors are finding. So we're still too early to know whether we'll ultimately learn what prosecutors know. We have a better chance of learning what Congress knows and they have a better chance of getting some of that information if they're setting it up with questions like we saw yesterday.
CAMEROTA: Panel, thank you all very much. We really appreciate all of the insights.
OK, a big number for the Trump administration is set to be announced today. The economic indicator that has their attention, next.
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[05:42:25] BERMAN: One more big piece of news this morning. Time for "CNN Business Now." A major economic indicator for the Trump administration set to be revealed today.
Our chief business correspondent Christine Romans --
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CHIEF BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT, ANCHOR, "EARLY START": Yes.
BERMAN: -- here with that.
ROMANS: This is really big -- the fourth quarter GDP, you guys. It's a critical picture of the -- of the economy ending -- and how it ended in 2018. And the government finally releases this number in less than four hours.
The picture looks increasingly gloomy. The Atlanta Fed forecast is just 1.8 percent growth for the fourth quarter. The New York Fed, 2.3 percent growth. A deceleration -- a slowdown from the more than four percent and 3.4 percent of the previous two quarters.
Now, the government shutdown delayed this report so we're getting a late look at just what happened at the end of the year.
Until the holidays, the U.S. economy appeared very strong with really strong job creation. But large sectors of the economy, including housing and manufacturing, they for some reason declined toward the end of the year.
Now, most forecasts expect growth to slow down further toward the end of this year as the economy maxes out on available workers and the effects of last year's tax cuts and government spending wear off.
Now, the slowdown could also mean the U.S. could miss the Trump administration's target of three percent growth for the year. GDP in 2017 was 2.3 percent. It was just 1 1/2 percent in 2016.
And this president has said that his policies have made an economic miracle. He has a three percent growth target. He has said that four percent growth is achievable. It doesn't look like that happened at the end of last year.
BERMAN: All right, Christine Romans watching that very closely. Thank you.
CAMEROTA: Thanks, Christine.
All right. We still have not seen President Trump's taxes. Michael Cohen suggests the president may not be under audit after all.
BERMAN: Well, he told us he was.
CAMEROTA: Wait, John -- just wait because we talked to someone who has spent years looking into Donald Trump's finances and what he heard yesterday.
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[05:48:28] CAMEROTA: President Trump has never released his taxes. He's repeatedly claimed he cannot because they are under audit. But, his former longtime attorney Michael Cohen casting doubt on that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. JIMMY GOMEZ (D-CA), MEMBER, HOUSE COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND REFORM: Can you give us any insight into what the real reason is that the president has refused to release his tax returns?
COHEN: The statements that he has said to me was that what he didn't want was to have an entire group of think tanks that are tax experts run through his tax return and start ripping it to pieces, and then he'll end up in audit and he'll ultimately have taxable consequences, penalties, and so on.
GOMEZ: So that's an interesting point that basically he said he didn't want to release his tax returns because he might end up in an audit. So, could you presume from that statement that he wasn't under audit?
COHEN: I presume that he is not under audit.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CAMEROTA: Joining us now is investigative reporter and author of "It's Even Worse Than You Think: What the Trump Administration Is Doing To America," David Cay Johnston. David, great to see you.
DAVID CAY JOHNSTON, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER, AUTHOR, "IT'S EVEN WORSE THAN YOU THINK: WHAT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IS DOING TO AMERICA": Good to see you.
CAMEROTA: Were you shocked to learn that President Trump's taxes may not be under audit?
JOHNSTON: Not in the least because he wouldn't ever release the audit letter, which is an anodyne document that reveals nothing except you're under audit. And during the campaign, the campaign was asked about this and they just blew off the question.
CAMEROTA: You are an investigative journalist. For how many years have you been tracking Donald Trump's finances?
JOHNSTON: More than 30.
CAMEROTA: For more than 30 --
JOHNSTON: Yes.
CAMEROTA: -- you have been looking into Donald Trump's finances. So what, for you -- what was the moment for you, listening to Michael Cohen yesterday, that made your jaw drop? [05:50:05] JOHNSTON: Well, he -- there were a bunch of them. I mean, he laid out -- and the Democrats did not connect the dots well -- a whole number of crimes or potential crimes if he's telling the truth. Tax fraud, bank fraud, insurance fraud, wire fraud, property tax fraud, potentially, and suborning perjury. I mean, he said he was instructed to lie to Congress.
And dealing with the Russians through surrogates. Roger Stone, according to him, and on the other side, WikiLeaks, which absolutely should disturb Americans no matter what else you think.
CAMEROTA: But when you say that the lawmakers didn't connect the dots, what -- tell us -- I mean, you've been looking at the matrix, so what dots connected for you yesterday?
JOHNSTON: Well, one of the things is this audit. I think this is very, very significant that there's no indication he's under audit. And, Congress has the right under a 1924 law to see his returns. And they do this, by the way, all the time.
CAMEROTA: And they're going to do this, aren't they? I mean, did you --
JOHNSTON: Yes, they absolutely are going to.
CAMEROTA: -- get the suggestion yesterday they are about to do this?
JOHNSTON: Yes, and they do it all the time for various reasons and have staff experts -- the very people Trump should worry about -- going over it.
Donald also manipulates his financial statements. He claimed during the campaign to be worth more than $10 billion. When he became president his lawyer said can we file our statement of disclosure without signing it under penalty of perjury? No, you've got to sign.
Well, 90 percent of his wealth disappeared -- 90 percent. Don't ever say he's worth $10 billion again. He is down now to claiming a little over $1 billion and that's inflated, too.
CAMEROTA: Michael Cohen alluded to -- actually, more than alluded. He spelled that out. So, let's play that moment where he explains that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COHEN: I am giving to the committee today three years of Mr. Trump's personal financial statements from 2011, 2012, and 2013, which he gave to Deutsch Bank to inquire about a loan to buy the Buffalo Bills and to Forbes. It was my experience that Mr. Trump inflated his total assets when it served his purposes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CAMEROTA: OK. So is that a crime of ego or is that going to come back to haunt him? JOHNSTON: Well, if he's used it to obtain a loan, that's bank fraud. But, Donald's manipulation of financial statements when Michael Cohen said this and provided documents -- I was reading on the airplane yesterday and I went vindication.
CAMEROTA: Because you've known this.
JOHNSTON: For years, since I revealed in 1990 that he wasn't a billionaire. And, Donald called me a liar until he had to put in the record documents showing he had a negative net worth of almost $300 million.
CAMEROTA: When his taxes are revealed, which it suggests they will be soon, what will we see in there?
JOHNSTON: Well, one of the things we're going to see is that his adjusted gross income -- that's the last figure on the front page of your tax return -- in some recent years, was less than $500,000.
We know that because he got something in New York called the STAR property tax credit on his principal home, which is in Trump Tower. You only get that if you're adjusted gross income is less than $500,000.
I think people are going to be very shocked about his finances, and what they're going to see is that he has the lifestyle of a billionaire, but he doesn't have any kind of wealth --
CAMEROTA: But is that him deflating his income to avoid paying taxes?
JOHNSTON: It depends on what -- and when he wants to pay lower taxes he deflates his income. When he wants to pay lower property taxes -- he's claimed, in one case, a property he's publicly said is worth over $100 million is only worth $1.4 million for property tax purposes.
Donald manipulates the numbers in whatever way he wants to gain an advantage. And if he did it on insurance claims, which he's publicly said but may have just been bluster, that's a serious crime.
CAMEROTA: I want to quickly play for you Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez because she seemed to really dive into the nitty-gritty of the finances. So listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OCASIO-CORTEZ: To your knowledge, did the president ever provide inflated assets to an insurance company?
COHEN: Yes.
OCASIO-CORTEZ: Who else knows that the president did this?
COHEN: Allen Weisselberg, Ron Lieberman, and Matthew Calamari.
OCASIO-CORTEZ: And where would the committee find more information on this? Do you think we need to review his financial statements and his tax returns in order to compare them?
COHEN: Yes, and you'd find it at the Trump Org.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CAMEROTA: What did you think of that moment?
JOHNSTON: I thought that she did an excellent job of examining the witness. There was a lot of preening yesterday by both parties that had nothing to do with the issues.
She and Professor Hill, from California, who is another freshman member of Congress, went right to the point and did questions the way a good lawyer or investigative reporter would do.
CAMEROTA: David Cay Johnston, always great to talk to you. We'll have you back to help us analyze what we find out next.
JOHNSTON: Thank you.
CAMEROTA: Thank you -- John.
BERMAN: All right, dramatic developments overnight. Breaking news from Hanoi.
The summit between North Korea and Donald Trump, the President of the United States, falls apart. The president comes home empty-handed. What happened? New developments, next.
[05:59:18] ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.
BERMAN: All right. Welcome to our viewers in the United States and all around the world. This is NEW DAY. It's Thursday, February 28th, 6:00 here in New York.
And what a night. The breaking news, no deal. The second summit between President Trump and North Korean dictator Kim Jong Un abruptly ended without an agreement. The president has already left Hanoi empty-handed.
President Trump says talks fell apart after North Korea insisted the U.S. lift all sanctions. The president also noted that he and Kim don't see eye-to-eye on what denuclearization actually details. President Trump said sometimes you just have to walk away from the negotiating table.
CAMEROTA: The president was half a world away, but he was also tuned into Michael Cohen's blistering testimony on Capitol Hill. President Trump is now calling his former lawyer and fixer a liar.
END
