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Hickenlooper Joins Race; New Polls on Democratic Candidates; Guaido Risks Arrest; Mounting Evidence as Probes Expand; DOJ Pressured to Block Merger. Aired 9:30-10a ET

Aired March 04, 2019 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[09:30:40] JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: It is getting crowded. Another Democrat has announced that he is joining the race for president in 2020. The former governor of Colorado, John Hickenlooper, launched his bid for 2020 early this morning, releasing this video. But how will he stand out in an already crowded and diverse field of Democrats?

For that, I want to bring in Scott McLean. He is in Denver. He's been covering Hickenlooper for some time.

Tell us what his message is for 2020.

SCOTT MCLEAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Jim.

Well, John Hickenlooper, he is undoubtedly an underdog in this race. Those who know him, though, say, don't count him out just yet. That said, he does not have a lot of national name recognition and he's a moderate in a party that seems to be moving further and further to the left.

But Hickenlooper is not expected to follow suit. In fact, I spoke with his former adviser and speechwriter yesterday who said pretty plainly, he's not going to appeal to the far left progressive wing of this party. But what should be appealing, more broadly, is the prospect of beating Donald Trump, which he believes that he can do.

Hickenlooper also has a pretty strong resume. Of course he was governor for the last eight years. He was mayor of Denver for the eight years prior to that. And he's also a successful entrepreneur. He opened a brew pub in a once dingy part of Denver that's actually still open today.

If Democrats, though, are looking for a guy who can drop the gloves and go toe-to-toe with Donald Trump, they might be disappointed in John Hickenlooper, though. That's because he claims he has never run a negative ad in his political career and he doesn't plan to now. In fact, he's billing himself as a guy who can work with Republicans to get things done.

Here's what he said this morning on "Good Morning America."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) JOHN HICKENLOOPER (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, I think this is a crisis of division and I think it's probably the worst period of division that we've had in this country since the Civil War. And, ultimately, I'm running for president because I believe that not only can I beat Donald Trump, but that I am the person that can bring people together on the other side and actually get stuff done.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MCLEAN: Now, what Hickenlooper did not mention in his video this morning, or in that "Good Morning America" interview, is legal marijuana, which is probably the thing that he's best known for outside of the state of Colorado. He once campaigned against legal weed, but then became the reluctant champion of the regulated, legal system that he helped to create. He's still not a supporter of it, though. He thinks that other states should wait and see what happens in Colorado before legalizing themselves.

And, Jim, Hickenlooper is the first Colorado candidate to get in the race, but he might not be the only one. Incidentally, Senator Michael Bennet, who was also his chief of staff when he was in the mayor's office, he has also said publicly that he is considering a run.

Jim.

SCIUTTO: Scott McLean in Denver, thanks very much.

Let's bring in Harry Enten, senior political writer and analyst for CNN.

So before we eliminate John Hickenlooper or call him a distant, you know, dark horse here, I mean he does have characteristics that appeal to some Democrats for a national run, right? I mean he's a western governor. He's not a coastal governor or politician.

HARRY ENTEN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL WRITER AND ANALYST: Sure.

SCIUTTO: He's a businessman.

ENTEN: Sure.

SCIUTTO: Not a bad resume to run, you know, to run against a guy like Trump.

ENTEN: No, I will say that Democrats don't particularly put being a businessman high up on the qualities that they want. The NBC News/"Wall Street Journal" poll out yesterday showed that --I'd also point out as you were sort of hinting at -- that he starts off low in the polls. He's only at 1 percent in Iowa, zero percent in New Hampshire. But the good news is, all he can go is up.

SCIUTTO: Right. Right. OK.

So, Senator Sanders, he took a little bit of a different turn than we've seen him before. He goes a little bit more personal in campaign stops in Brooklyn, Alabama and elsewhere. Have a listen to what he was saying.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: My experience as a child living in a family that struggled economically, powerfully influenced my life and my values. I know where I came from.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: A little more personal than he has in the past. But this new NBC/"Wall Street Journal" poll showing possibly some disadvantages for him, at least in terms of what voters say they want in the next election. We can put the numbers up on the screen. Tell us, as you look at this poll, what it taught you about his candidacy.

ENTEN: Well, I mean I will point out, you know, the socialists being so far down on the list. Only 25 percent among the general electorate. Among Democrats, it's a little bit higher, in the 40s I believe. But this is going to be a hill that he'll need to climb, and that is explaining to voters what exactly a Democratic socialist is because Donald Trump will throw that at him over and over and over again and he needs to be able to say, you know what, I'm not that extreme. This is what it is. You've heard these policies before. I want to help out the working class voters.

[09:35:03] And I'll also point out in that poll, voters, especially Democratic voters, don't seem to want a candidate over the age of 75. And so Bernie Sanders obviously is vital -- you know, goes out, runs a good campaign, but I think that is also potentially (INAUDIBLE).

SCIUTTO: And might influence Joe Biden's decision going forward.

ENTEN: Of course, as well.

SCIUTTO: Let's talk about the president because also in this NBC/"Wall Street Journal" poll, a good sign for the president, his approval rating up to 46 percent disapproving -- disapproval -- we'll put the numbers up on the screen, 52 percent. Interesting about this number, 46. First of all, it's up a few points since January in the midst of the shutdown, but also similar levels to where Obama and Clinton were at similar points in their presidency.

ENTEN: Sure. I mean I will point out that this poll's a little bit of an outlier in that concern. Some other polls do show his approval rating closer to that 43 percent mark. I will say that sense the shutdown, his numbers do seem to have improved somewhat.

But more than that, yes, we're going to make those historical comparisons, but it should be pointed out that Obama and Clinton proved that they were able to get over 50 percent. Donald Trump's approval rating has never come anywhere close to that.

SCIUTTO: He has stayed in a pretty consistent band. But look at these figures for 2020. Forty-one percent say they will vote for Trump, 48 percent say they will vote against him there. So lower numbers, you know, even if he has at 46 percent approval rating, you have, you know, similar when you talk about the base that's still behind him, at least for a second term.

ENTEN: He still has that base, but I think the key point there is that might -- that seven-point margin for the Democratic generic candidate is the same as the minus six-point net approval rating that Donald Trump had in that poll. This election right now looks like a referendum on Donald Trump. Bad news for him.

SCIUTTO: Understood. Though a lot of time to go before that actual election (ph).

ENTEN: Well, look, we've still got more than a year to go and we'll be here all the way.

SCIUTTO: I think -- I think we might be talking about it now and then.

ENTEN: Maybe just a little bit.

SCIUTTO: Harry Enten, always good to have you on to break it down.

ENTEN: Thank you.

Any moment now Venezuela's self-proclaimed interim president is expected to join protests in Caracas. This after returning to the country. He's going to risk being thrown in jail while he's there. We're going to follow it. Will he be arrested as the protests take place? A live report coming up.

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[09:41:13] SCIUTTO: In just minutes, Juan Guaido, the self-proclaimed interim president of Venezuela, expected to risk arrest and join anti- government protesters on the ground in Caracas. Guaido urged people across the country to take to the streets and pressure the sitting president, Nicolas Maduro, to step down. And he has said that he will join the demonstrations, even though he could face arrest for ignoring a court-ordered travel ban.

CNN's Patrick Oppmann is live in Caracas.

And, Patrick, do we have a sense of how the government will react to this? I mean it's a direct challenge, is it not, to President Maduro's authority?

PATRICK OPPMANN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, absolutely. That is literally the question everyone here is asking, when Juan Guaido returns to this country -- if he's not here already -- when he gets close to this plaza, as he says he will do.

And let me just show you where we are. There are people beginning to pour into this plaza. And behind me is the stage where, as you said, next hour, Juan Guaido is expected to address the crowd. His first speech to Venezuelans since leaving the country, since going on this international tour where he met with some of his supporters or heads of state around the region and Vice President Mike Pence. So when he gets back here, though, Jim, will he face arrest?

President Nicolas Maduro has said that Juan Guaido, when he returns, may face justice. That's just another way of saying that he could be arrested for leaving the country illegally. If that happens, it will set off another round of denunciations from the United States. You've seen U.S. officials over the last few days warning Venezuela not to do it.

But, of course, the other part of this calculus is if Juan Guaido comes here, is able to give a fiery anti-government speech and nothing happens to him, it certainly makes sitting President Nicolas Maduro look very weak.

So if a decision's been made, we don't know at this point. Juan Guaido's advisers -- we've talked to some of them here -- feel that he will not be arrested, feel that he will be allowed to come here and give a speech and, once again, take the mantel of the leader of the opposition here in Venezuela.

SCIUTTO: Could be quite a standoff. It will be good to have you on the ground. Patrick Oppmann live there from Caracas, Venezuela.

Top Democrats here at home say they think there is plenty of evidence piling up against the sitting president. Next, what are they planning to do with that evidence? We'll have more.

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[09:47:53] SCIUTTO: As Democrats step up their investigations of the White House, a trio of Democratic lawmakers suggested over the weekend that there is already clear evidence the president broke the law and may even have colluded with Russia in 2016.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. ADAM SCHIFF (D), CHAIRMAN, INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE: I think there is direct evidence in the e-mails from the Russians through their intermediary offering dirt on Hillary Clinton as part of what is described in writing as the Russian government effort to help elect Donald Trump.

REP. JERRY NADLER (D), CHAIRMAN, JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: It's very clear that the president obstructed justice. It's very clear.

SEN. MARK WARNER (D), INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE: I think there is enormous amounts of evidence. What you do with that evidence, where it leads, I'm reserving my judgment.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Joining me now, CNN legal analyst Shan Wu. He's former federal prosecutor and a defense attorney.

And, Shan, you know, granting that as members their committee, you know, Schiff has been briefed on things that you and I have not seen, Mark Warner as well with the Senate Intel Committee. But based on what we know in public, do you think they're going too far here to say that there is clear evidence of wrongdoing by this president?

SHAN WU, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, it's real interesting. I was thinking about this, Jim, and the -- I guess I want to preface my answer with a -- the structure I've been thinking about with what they face versus what prosecutors face.

So, for a prosecutor, you first face a little bit of a more quantitative analysis. Is there probable cause? Does the evidence get to that basic level? So here I would say, if we put it in the political realm, I would agree that there could be probable cause for both the collusion, meaning some sort of communication for a conspiracy, as well as the obstruction.

The next step for a prosecutor is the discretion aspect. And sometimes that's described as, do you have enough to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt? Should you bring the case? And there I think a prosecutor's discretion varies very widely from congressional because there's such different points.

So I would say, from a prosecutor's standpoint, I think there could be enough to charge in terms of probable cause for the collusion aspect. Much stronger --

SCIUTTO: Based on --

WU: Yes?

[09:50:00] SCIUTTO: Based on what? Based on what we know? Because, I mean, for instance, if you look at even Michael Cohen's testimony last week, he -- I mean he was somewhat vague on -- I mean he said there was a phone call, for instance, that the president knew and approved of the Trump Tower meeting in 2016 and that he got a heads-up as well on WikiLeaks releases. But to our knowledge, and, of course, Robert Mueller might have other substantiating evidence, we don't know, but to our knowledge that's all Cohen had.

I mean what gives you the confidence as a prosecutor that there's enough there to establish probable cause?

WU: It's the substantive aspects of the communications that went on. It's the idea that there was the exchange of the polling information and it's the president's campaign manager doing that. And with the WikiLeaks, it's the evidence that there's this phone call going on.

WikiLeaks, I think, is a little bit weaker because you're kind of really lacking the intermediary aspect. But for that -- you know, probable cause is not that high of a standard. For that type of minimum standard, I think you could have enough there.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

WU: But on the discretionary part, I think we would be a ways from making that decision, as a prosecutor. Congress, very different.

SCIUTTO: Yes. I mean it is -- it gets back to that Jim Comey speech relating to Hillary Clinton, right? I mean he said, listen, she did a lot of bad stuff -- I believe he called it reckless -- but that a prosecutor most likely would not have proceeded to charge criminally here.

I mean but that's essentially the question, right?

WU: Right.

SCIUTTO: Is that this is -- in the final analysis, it's likely to be a political judgment, is it not, for members of Congress whether they proceed, particularly if Robert Mueller sticks with the DOJ guidance on indicting a sitting president.

WU: Absolutely. It's very much of a political judgement. And I think what we're all trying to do is given the rather limited precedent of presidential impeachments, we're all trying to apply some sort of a prosecutorial analysis legal structure into looking at what they'll do.

And I think when you look at the two aims of prosecutors versus Congress, Congress trying to bring in the light, bring things forward, I think that becomes a very interesting situation.

On obstruction, though, I have to say, it seems a much stronger case to me. I'm almost every day the president is tweeting things which could be construed as trying to interfere with the investigation. So there I'd say on the discretionary aspect, I would say they're much closer to that. Even as a prosecutor, I think you'd be more comfortable charging that because there are just so many instances of it, including, of course, two things particularly tantalizing. I mean the Comey firing and then also there's this issue of -- it sounds now like President Trump's legal team may have met with -- did meet with Cohen prior to his original testimony during which he lied. SO that really raises the question of what happened there and might -- I think it transformed those lawyers into witnesses at this point.

SCIUTTO: We'll see. I mean Jay Sekulow, of course, denied what Cohen said, but if there's proof, it's another issue.

Shan Wu, thanks very much.

WU: Thanks, Jim.

SCIUTTO: There is a new report alleging that President Trump directed his former economic adviser to pressure the Justice Department to block the merger between AT&T and Time Warner. Time Warner, of course, the owner of this network. The question, was this politically motivated? We're going to speak more.

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[09:57:17] SCIUTTO: New this morning, "The New Yorker" magazine is reporting that President Trump directed Gary Cohn, his former economic adviser, to pressure the Justice Department to try to stop the merger between AT&T and Time Warner. That is different from what the administration has repeatedly claimed that President Trump had nothing to do with the DOJ's lawsuit. We should note, Time Warner, of course, owns CNN.

Joining me now is Brian Stelter, CNN chief media correspondent.

I mean, if true, this is quite a remarkable example of the exercise of presidential power for a political motive here, right? A punitive motive.

BRIAN STELTER, CNN CHIEF MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: Yes. Unethical.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

STELTER: Absolutely unethical and potentially illegal. And we're going to see if Democrats decide to pursue this line of inquiry.

But what's reported here this morning by Jay Mayer (ph), one of the top reporters in the country in "The New Yorker," is breathtaking. Here's a part of what she's reporting in "The New Yorker." She says, according to a well-informed source, President Trump called Gary Cohn into the Oval Office, along with John Kelly, who had just become the chief of staff, and said in exasperation to Kelly, quote, I've been telling Cohn to get this lawsuit filed and nothing's happened. I've mentioned it 50 times and nothing's happened. I want to make sure it's filed. I want that deal blocked.

Now, we all knew the president did not want AT&T to by Time Warner. Now (INAUDIBLE).

SCIUTTO: He said it publically many times.

STELTER: He said it publically. But to be privately urging, pressuring the Department of Justice to do something, that is a line that is typically not crossed by any president. This reporting in "The New Yorker" backs up AT&T's long held suspicions about what happened behind the scenes here. You know, remember, it was in late 2017 that the government sued to block the deal. There was a long trial. This went on for a long time.

Actually just last week an appeals court affirmed that AT&T was able to buy Warner Media, now CNN's owned by AT&T. But this was going on for years. It cost AT&T tens of millions of dollars.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

STELTER: And there were always suspicions among executives at AT&T and Time Warner that there were, you know, political motives here, that the president somehow tried to interfere. Now, for the first time, we're seeing reporting that backs that up.

SCIUTTO: And it was an enormous fight, even though it did -- the deal did go through in the end. First of all, there was a delay --

STELTER: Right.

SCIUTTO: And there was enormous financial cost to this, both in the delay, but also it cost a lot of money to challenge the Justice Department.

STELTER: Right, tens of millions of dollars. Yes. Right, a lot of opportunity costs as well due to the delay.

Look, I think it's really telling that it's not just Democrats or liberals who were concerned about this reporting this morning. George Conway, the husband of Kellyanne Conway, is on Twitter saying, if this is true, this is unquestionably grounds for impeachment.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

STELTER: I don't know what the Democrats are going to do. We haven't heard from any top Democrats yet about this, but I think they are probably thinking about what to do, who to call to testify, what to do next.

SCIUTTO: Do they -- do they subpoena Gary Cohn and John Kelly?

STELTER: Right. That's the question.

SCIUTTO: Who the story says were in the room.

STELTER: Yes.

SCIUTTO: Brian Stelter, thanks very much.

STELTER: Thanks.

SCIUTTO: Top of the hour on this Monday morning. I'm Jim Sciutto in New York.

[09:59:56] Right now search teams in east central Alabama digging through communities that are all but obliterated. Just look at those pictures there this morning. This after the deadliest outbreak of tornadoes to hit that state in years. Twenty-three people

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