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House Democrats To Expand Obstruction Probe; Interview with Rep. Ted Deutch (D-FL); CNN Reality Check: Five Times Trump Called True Stories "Fake News"; Democrats Target Donald Trump, Jr. And Allen Weisselberg As Probes Grow; "Leaving Neverland" Documentary Examines Michael Jackson's Legacy. Aired 7:30-8a ET

Aired March 04, 2019 - 07:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[07:30:00] REP. TED DEUTCH (D-FL), MEMBER, JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: -- any threats to the rule of law. And in the case of this White House, that means a full and thorough investigation into the potential corruption charges, the potential abuse of power that we've seen over and over again, and obstruction of justice.

We've gone through this process where we've allowed the Mueller report -- the Mueller investigation to play out as we need to, and we're waiting for that report and it has to be public.

But we have an important job to do to lay out all of the facts in a fully transparent way for the American people so that they understand whether or not there is a threat to the rule of law and how Congress will ensure that no one is above the law.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: All right. For instance, what do you want to know from Donald Trump, Jr.?

DEUTCH: Well, in each one of these cases there are -- there are a whole range of issues that we're going to be asking about. In the case of Donald Trump, Jr. -- in the case of -- I'm going to take a step back, John, in all of these.

For example, we know -- on the issue of obstruction of justice, we know that it certainly looked like obstruction of justice when the president fired Jim Comey and asked him to go easy on Flynn.

It looked like obstruction of justice when the president -- when the president allegedly reached out to the former acting attorney general to ask if the -- Southern District New York -- Southern District of New York U.S. attorney could unrecuse himself so he might get more favorable treatment.

We know the issues about the potential corruption and the president enriching himself while he's president --a violation of the Emoluments Clause -- by having foreign governments spend money to enrich the president.

In all of these issues, the people who are closest to him have information about what the president was actually doing. That's why it's so important for us to reach out to them. We've -- I'm just going to say this. We -- John, throughout this

entire process for two years, the Republican leadership of the Judiciary Committee has done everything they can to try to shift attention away from everything the president is doing. We are now going to focus like a laser on all of these areas. That's why we're reaching out and that's why we're starting --

BERMAN: You --

DEUTCH: -- with these requests to 60 people.

BERMAN: You keep on using the phrase "we know." And let me channel Oprah here for a second if I can and ask you the question that she always asks under a different context.

What do you know for sure? What do you feel that you already know?

DEUTCH: Well, we already -- we already know that -- we know the facts as they have been reported in public. We don't know more than that.

So we know that the president said that he fired the FBI director because of the Russia investigation.

We know that the president -- that the actions by the president throughout his presidency have attempted to undermine -- he used his power to undermine the institutions of our country. Whether it's the press, whether it's our national security apparatus, he has gone out of his way to use the power in that way.

We know that there is evidence of possible violations of the Emoluments Clause from the payments, whether it's to the Trump Hotel and others. So this is just what's been reported.

The problem is what we don't -- what we've not been able to do is move beyond talk of the Mueller report -- which the Mueller investigation report, which is important -- and broaden it to all of these areas and investigations, whether in federal court in New York or Virginia or whether in state court.

BERMAN: So --

DEUTCH: All of the investigations that the American people need to understand.

BERMAN: For what, then? To what end? You will try to find this out to do what?

DEUTCH: Well, to enforce the rule of law. To make sure that no one is above the law.

Look, I -- just let me just answer -- right. So let me answer --

BERMAN: What is the only way to enforce the rule of law and to make sure that no one is above the law to make sure that no one is above the rule of law when you're talking about the President of the United States? DEUTCH: Well, we -- it's the President of the United States and everyone around him. And I'll anticipate your question -- I guess you're hinting at, which is the question of impeachment.

Chairman Nadler was clear yesterday that that's a decision that gets made, if it gets made, only if the American people have seen evidence that the president has committed impeachable offenses.

And rather than reacting after each of one of the scandalous headlines and stories about the way that the president has abused power, about the way that he's attempted to obstruct justice, it makes sense for us to lay all of this out --

BERMAN: OK.

DEUTCH: -- in a thoughtful way over the course of the next year.

BERMAN: Let me play you something that the House minority leader Kevin McCarthy said. And this is an argument that we've heard on this show from Rick Santorum and others, specifically having to do with the --

DEUTCH: Sure.

BERMAN: -- Stormy Daniels payoffs. That basically, even if he was connected, it's not a big deal.

[07:35:02] Listen to this exchange.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS, ANCHOR, "GOOD MORNING AMERICA", "THIS WEEK": If there's no problem with these checks, if there's no problems with reimbursement, then why did the president lie about it for so long?

REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA), HOUSE MINORITY LEADER: You know, you could ask that question of the president, but this is a personal issue and why would most people not go to the American public about this? You've seen politicians do this exact same thing in the past. So, to me, they're trying to find a case for a problem that doesn't exist.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: Is this a problem that doesn't exist? Is this something that all politicians have done before?

DEUTCH: Of course not -- of course not. It's unprecedented and let's be clear because we've heard this argument before from people in the administration that this is a personal matter.

The criminal code is full of personal matters that are also crimes. This was the President of the United States acting through Michael Cohen -- through his personal attorney -- to silence someone right before an election in order to win an election.

Let me put it more simply, John. This is -- by appearance, anyway, this is the President of the United States committing a felony in order to be elected president, then attempting to cover it up. And then, throughout this process, tried to silence witnesses and intimidate witnesses while also dangling the potential of pardons.

No, this is not -- it's not normal for someone running for president to make a large payoff that's meant to keep information silent so that he can become President of the United States.

That's just one example but it's a great one because the minority leader here, again, shows that it is his first goal and top priority to defend everything that the president is doing rather than working with us to ensure that the rule of law is respected.

That's what's so disappointing when I hear statements like that. But it's not going to -- going to deter the House Judiciary Committee from doing the work we need to on behalf of the American people.

BERMAN: Congressman Ted Deutch, if you believe all those things you just laid out, the next few months, for you, I think will be fascinating.

Thank you on behalf of me and Oprah Winfrey. Thanks for being with us this morning. I appreciate it.

DEUTCH: Thanks very much.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Are you now speaking for Oprah because I --

BERMAN: I think it's a good question in terms of Democrats with this, though --

CAMEROTA: I do, too.

BERMAN: -- because they keep on saying on saying we know, we know, we know, and I'm curious what they feel like they know already and what else they want to learn.

CAMEROTA: What's the one thing you're sure of? I think it's a good question for everyone.

BERMAN: Yes. I just think here, normally.

CAMEROTA: Good.

Will Donald Trump, Jr. be the next person summoned to testify before Congress? We discuss that and more, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:41:16] CAMEROTA: All right.

As you know, President Trump has changed the long-held definition of fake news. He does not mean fictional stories written by trolls in Macedonia -- that's what it meant for many years -- he means stories by news outlets he does not like. So just how many of those stories turned out to be true?

BERMAN: I don't know why you brought up Macedonia. I mean, you brought up Macedonia --

CAMEROTA: Am I going -- am I hating on Macedonia?

BERMAN: A little bit.

CAMEROTA: John Avlon has, apparently, a huge calculator where he's been keeping track of how many of those stories have turned out to be true. Hi, John.

JOHN AVLON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Hey. It's so large you have to use your fist to hit the buttons. Yes, Ali.

So, in his rambling 2-hour speech at CPAC this weekend, President Trump floated the idea of issuing an executive order defending free speech on college campuses. Now, of course, we already have something a good deal more permanent than an executive order. It's called the First Amendment of the Constitution.

This not only protects freedom of speech, it protects freedom of the press, something Donald Trump's not a big fan of, at least judging by his repeated use of the phrase "enemy of the people" to refer to journalists, and the phrase "fake news" to essentially describe any reporting he doesn't like, which is why we thought it would be useful to reality check the president's use of the phrase "fake news."

Now, sometimes he just bellows it on Twitter absence of any context. But sometimes, it's in reaction to specific reporting. And often, those denials are themselves proven to be fake.

For example, President Trump went after our colleagues Carl Bernstein, Jim Sciutto, and Marshall Cohen for this story. Trump called it fake news.

Last week, in his congressional testimony, Michael Cohen essentially confirmed it, saying that he'd seen Don Jr. brief his dad about a meeting in advance of the Trump Tower chat with the Russians -- all, of course, kicked off by the promise of dirt on Hillary Clinton.

Or, how about "The New York Times" story from Friday where Trump's own chief of staff wrote a memo detailing his concerns that the president overruled the Intelligence Community to get his son-in-law a top secret security clearance.

Well, Trump not only flatly denied it in an interview with Maggie Haberman, he called a similar report fake news as far back as the transition. The man in the White House calling everyone a liar seems to have been lying.

Or, let's travel back to January during the largest government shutdown in American history. Trump lashed out after seeing a "Washington Post" reporter on T.V. saying that the White House had no strategy for this shutdown. Well, the absence of strategy was widely reported by White House and congressional sources. And the results of the shutdown where President Trump got less money for the border wall than had been initially offered by Democrats, would seem to confirm all that reporting.

Or, given last week's underwhelming North Korea nuke summit, we could look back to November when Trump said, quote, "The story in the New York Times concerning North Korea developing missile bases is inaccurate." CNN's reporting, as well as the congressional testimony of Trump's own director of national intelligence contradicted the president's optimistic assessment of North Korean nukes.

Finally, to round out the most recent top five, in the run-up to the midterm elections, the A.P. published an interview with the president with this headline -- "Trump tells A.P he won't accept blame if GOP loses House."

The president was displeased and fired off this tweet.

TEXT: "A.P. headline was very different from my quote and meaning in the story. They just can't help themselves. FAKE NEWS!"

AVLON: But a review of the transcript showed that Trump did say he wouldn't bear responsibility for a loss, saying he thought he was helping candidates. In the end, of course, 40 House Republicans lost their seats.

And again, these are just five of the most recent prominent examples, folks.

Donald Trump has used the phrase "fake news" over 800 times in speeches and tweets which is why it's worth remembering that the press, however imperfect, works hard to get things right while the president seems determined to do the opposite when it comes to confronting uncomfortable truths presented by the free press in America.

And that's your reality check.

BERMAN: Yes, the key word there being reality, John.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

BERMAN: Thank you very much for that.

CAMEROTA: Thank you, John.

BERMAN: Michael Cohen is back this week for more testimony before the House Intelligence Committee.

So who else does the committee want to speak with? Here's the chairman, Adam Schiff, on Showtime last night talking about the Trump Organization's chief financial officer and the president's son.

[07:45:08] (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) REP. ADAM SCHIFF (D), CALIFORNIA: In terms of Mr. Weisselberg, I think it's going to be necessary to bring him in.

And, Don, Jr., we are obviously looking carefully at his prior testimony. We now know additional information and it may very well be necessary to bring him back before the committee. Those are decisions that we'll make in consultation with our members.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: All right, we want to bring in Mark McKinnon, co-host of "THE CIRCUS" on Showtime. That was his clip we just showed there. Also, a former senior adviser to the George W. Bush and McCain campaigns.

Also, Jeffrey Toobin, former federal prosecutor and CNN chief legal analyst.

Mark, I'm going to start with since you came bringing something. You brought us treats -- video there and the ominous music in the background.

Adam Schiff says he wants to talk to Allen Weisselberg and Donald Trump, Jr. We saw Jerry Nadler put that list at some 60 people that he wants to speak with. The Democrats now are in -- are all in on this, it seems.

MARK MCKINNON, CO-HOST, SHOWTIME "THE CIRCUS": Yes, I think what we saw last week is just how wide this net may go.

And I had a great debate with a friend last night and I'm interested to ask you, Jeffrey, about this, which is what should the purview of the special counsel be or the investigations?

My view is that Russian collusion may be the least of the president's worries and maybe it should be the least of his worries. And my view is that if a president -- particularly, a sitting president or anybody running for president -- committed a felony we should know about it no matter where it was.

Your view?

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN CHIEF LEGAL ANALYST, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Well, I think that's right but the vehicle for finding things out is more complicated than just like we want to learn how it's going to turn out.

I mean, you have the Mueller investigation which, apparently, is wrapping up and there will be some sort of report.

The Southern District of New York is aggressively investigating the Michael Cohen-related activities. There's going to be no report from the Southern District. That is simply they will either issue indictments or not.

Congress is investigating many of the same subjects. That, presumably, is nothing but public. So, I would -- I think there are going to be many vehicles to find out what's going on --

CAMEROTA: But --

TOOBIN: -- but there's not going to be sort of one central repository.

MCKINNON: So, my friend -- my friend had this idea. So what are you -- are you suggesting we should have a special prosecutor to vet all the people running for president? And I said, well, maybe not a bad idea.

(LAUGHTER)

CAMEROTA: I mean, sort of, except isn't that what a campaign is called, you now?

BERMAN: That's what the American people are.

MCKINNON: That's oppo research.

BERMAN: Yes.

CAMEROTA: But, Jeffrey, if Congress finds out that Donald Trump committed crimes before he was in office of the kind that Michael Cohen outlined, like tax fraud, defrauding a charity, bank fraud, but he wasn't yet in office, then what is Congress supposed to do about that?

TOOBIN: Well, it -- the question is impeachment, and you --

CAMEROTA: But do you impeach for something before you were in office --

TOOBIN: Sure.

CAMEROTA: -- or just crimes when you were in office?

TOOBIN: Well, the important thing to remember about impeachment is that it is a political process, not a legal process. If you were to find out that on the day before the inauguration that the president killed somebody -- of course, they would be impeached. You can't have a president who committed a murder.

So the question Congress will have to ask is, first of all, what happened before he was president and what can we prove in a convincing way. It's not proof beyond a reasonable doubt. Congress doesn't have that sort of burden, but they will have to make the political judgment of is there enough here that merits impeachment.

And, you know, Nancy Pelosi has said to me and many others, we are not doing anything on impeachment unless we can be sure there are 67 votes in the Senate, which there clearly are not.

BERMAN: But, two things. One thing that's very interesting -- TOOBIN: Yes.

BERMAN: -- is that the framers actually did think that impeachment was specifically for crimes and misdemeanors that got you into office. If you did something in the process of obtaining that office, George Mason said, that is corrupt, that should be impeachment.

MCKINNON: What is what Stormy Daniels is all about.

BERMAN: Exactly.

And you said something else, Mark, that I think is really interesting here and it changes the framing of this whole discussion. You said if the president committed a felony while in office or before, we want to know about it.

MCKINNON: Yes.

BERMAN: That's not a very high bar. We just want to know about it.

MCKINNON: Yes, that was part of my argument. We should -- we're talking about the President of the United States and if the President of the United States committed a felony anytime in his life, I want to know about it.

CAMEROTA: Well --

BERMAN: That's like such an unshocking statement, yet you have Kevin McCarthy out there saying -- and Rick Santorum, our friend who will be with us in just a few minutes -- saying these campaign finance violations -- you know, everyone does it. I don't see it as a crime. It's not so bad.

MCKINNON: Well, this campaign finance violation, arguably, changed the outcome of the election.

Listen, I was in the Bush campaign when a DWI broke three days before the election and, arguably, threw us into a recount.

I think you can easily say that had that news come out, which was about a week before the election with Stormy Daniels and the payoff, that could have affected 77,000 of us. Seventy-seven thousand evangelicals may have stayed home.

CAMEROTA: Well, Chairman Nadler, on House Judiciary, says that he has already seen evidence of crimes committed. Here's what he -- how he spelled it out.

[07:50:00] (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. JERRY NADLER (D), NEW YORK: It's very clear that the president obstructed justice -- it's very clear.

Eleven hundred times he referred to the Mueller investigation as a witch hunt. He tried to -- he fired -- he tried to protect Flynn from being investigated by the FBI. He fired Comey in order to stop the Russian thing, as he told NBC News.

He -- he's dangled -- he's threatened -- he's intimated witnesses.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: Very interesting needle that Jerry Nadler is threading because he's spelling all that out -- the laundry list of where he sees crimes having already been committed and obstruction of justice.

But, in the same interview said we're a long way from any sort of impeachment. We don't even know if we're going to get there.

TOOBIN: Well, you know, both Nadler and Pelosi recognize -- they are all haunted, appropriately, by the 1998 experience of the Republicans who went ahead with impeachment while knowing that Bill Clinton would never be removed from the Senate.

They are only going to move on impeachment if they feel like they can actually see Trump removed, which they are nowhere near. However, they're not going to just simply let it go. They are going to investigate these subjects and see where it goes.

And it seems like -- I think that is both an appropriate political strategy and it's also the right thing to do. I mean, these are important issues about stuff that is very significant and Congress had done nothing for the past two years. They should do it now.

MCKINNON: Let me say, by the way, that those Republicans in the Senate are not wed to the president ideologically or because they like him particularly because he's a great friend. It's only because of political muscle. And if he loses that, the trap door could go really fast.

BERMAN: Mark McKinnon, Jeffrey Toobin, thank you very much.

Two men are publicly sharing the disturbing details of their encounters with Michael Jackson that they say took place when they were just kids. What we've learned so far from the "LEAVING NEVERLAND" documentary -- that's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:56:02] CAMEROTA: OK, it's time for "CNN Business Now" while -- as I eat my oatmeal.

BERMAN: Time for CNN breakfast now is what it is, apparently.

CAMEROTA: The U.S. and China apparently inching closer to a deal to end the 8-month trade war. And, John Berman joins me right now.

CNN chief business correspondent Christine Romans is here with details. What do we know?

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CHIEF BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT, ANCHOR, "EARLY START": Hi, there, Alisyn. Good morning. And new this morning, a spokesman for the Chinese government sounding upbeat, saying we hope the two sides can continue to step up consultations to reach a win-win agreement.

Now, contours of a trade deal are emerging here. "The Wall Street Journal" reports China is offering to lower tariffs on American soybeans and autos. And, Washington is considering rolling back tariffs on $200 billion worth of Chinese products.

And Friday, the president asked Beijing to end all tariffs on U.S. agriculture exports because, of course, Trump didn't increase tariffs on March first, that famous deadline.

Now, the "Journal" reports China is pledging to speed up the timetable for removing foreign ownership limitations on auto ventures and cutting tariffs on imported vehicles.

Big questions, though, remain, you guys -- enforceability. Will China live up to its promises and will Trump, the president -- hungry for victory -- essentially undo all the tariffs and counter-tariffs of the past eight months, but make little headway into changing China's business model?

Now, the president has teased a meeting with the Chinese President Xi. The "Journal" reports that meeting could happen around March 27th, guys.

BERMAN: All right, Christine Romans. Thank you very much.

Ten years after his death, the life of Michael Jackson is the subject of a new HBO documentary, "LEAVING NEVERLAND." It tells the story of Wade Robson and James Safechuck, two men who claim the pop singer sexually molested them when they were children.

There's so much buzz around this documentary and our chief media correspondent Brian Stelter is here with the latest -- Brian.

BRIAN STELTER, CNN CHIEF MEDIA CORRESPONDENT, ANCHOR, "RELIABLE SOURCES": Yes, this film is a punch in the gut but it's nothing compared to what these two accusers say they went through for years.

This film contains detailed allegations of pedophilia and, of course, this is something that followed Michael Jackson for decades. There were allegations in the past and this time it's different. People may be more ready to listen and hear the stories.

Now, here's a little bit of what the two accusers say in the film.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WADE ROBSON, MICHAEL JACKSON ACCUSER: He told me if they ever found out what we were doing, he and I would go to jail for the rest of our lives.

JAMES SAFECHUCK, MICHAEL JACKSON ACCUSER: Secrets will eat you up. You feel so alone.

ROBSON: I want to be able to speak the truth as loud as I had to speak the lie for so long.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

STELTER: And it's time -- past time to actually hear them -- to hear their words. Wade and James share detailed accounts of alleged sexual abuse.

And part two of the film airs tonight.

CAMEROTA: I mean, obviously, things like this came out years ago but I'm sure that the Jackson family thought they were past them. How are they responding now?

STELTER: They sued HBO for $100 million. The film aired no matter what -- aired no matter what.

But here's part of the statement from the family -- from the estate.

They say that "Michael always turned the other cheek, and we have always turned the other cheek when people have gone after members of our family. That is the Jackson way. But we can't stand by while this public lynching goes on and the vulture tweeters and others who have never met Michael go after him."

So, the estate is defending the late Michael Jackson. A lot of this is financial, of course. The estate makes a lot of money from the Jackson Library, from the music, and they're trying to defend that.

But the lawsuit didn't do anything. The film still aired.

Here's another statement from HBO which says part two is going to air tonight and that everyone can make up their own minds. The statement says, "This will allow everyone the opportunity to assess the film and the claims in it for themselves."

Part two, as I mentioned, airing tonight. And, Oprah Winfrey has taped a special to air after part two with the survivors -- with 100 members of an audience who are all sexual abuse survivors. She says she wants to draw attention to not just to Jackson but to this broader problem.

I really hope it's time people are able to take these accusers' accounts and take them seriously.

BERMAN: Brian Stelter, thank you --

STELTER: Thanks.

BERMAN: -- very much.

CAMEROTA: Thanks, Brian.

BERMAN: Appreciate it. CAMEROTA: All right. A desperate search for survivors after deadly tornadoes have struck Alabama. We have breaking news coverage for you that begins right now.

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

CAMEROTA: And, good morning, everyone. Welcome to your NEW DAY.

END