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HALA GORANI TONIGHT
Trump Slams Probe as Big Fat Fishing Expedition; Hillary Clinton Says Not Running In 2020; Talks Between UK And EU Continue as Clock Ticks; Irish Police Join Probe into London Explosives; United Kingdom Labour Party Engulfed by Racism Claims. Aired 2-3p ET
Aired March 5, 2019 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[14:00:00] HALA GORANI, CNN HOST: Hello, everyone. Live from CNN London, I'm Hala Gorani. Tonight, hitting back, Donald Trump says a wide-ranging
investigation into him, his businesses and his White House is a, quote, big fat fishing expedition.
Also, tonight, a patient here in London might be the second person ever to be cured of HIV. I speak to the head researcher of the study this hour.
And Britain's opposition party is tearing itself apart, not over Brexit. It is over an anti-Semitism crisis that will not go away. We have a
special report on that.
A big fat fishing expedition desperately in search of a crime being, that is what Donald Trump is calling a sweeping new investigation into his
political but also personal and professional life. The U.S. President is at the White House right now meeting with veterans. He is furious, you can
see it on his Twitter page, that the House Judiciary Committee is demanding documents from 81 people and organizations as it investigates alleged
abuses of power. These are live images, by the way, coming to us from the oval office. Mr. Trump calls it the greatest overreach in the history of
our country. And you can see what he tweeted a little bit earlier. But the Democratic committee chairman says they are determined to hold Mr.
Trump accountable and protect the rule of law. Let's bring in White House reporter Jeremy Diamond and Congressional correspondent. Let's talk about
the request for documents from 81 people and entities. What happens now going forward with regards to this investigation?
SUNLEN SERFATY, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: We saw, Hala, those letters go out to, as you noted, 81 people and entities yesterday from the
committee up here on Capitol Hill. Some bold-faced names you know very well, like Jared Kushner, both of President Trump's sons. Also, some
familiar names from the campaign in the White House, Hope Hicks, Steve Bannon, Sean Spicer, also some names you probably most recently heard in
that Michael Cohen's testimony up here on Capitol Hill last week. Allen Weisselberg among those on the list. He was the CFO in the Trump
Organization. Someone many folks up here would like to speak with. These folks now have two weeks to return these documents that have been requested
by the committee up here on Capitol Hill, and very clear the committee could move forward and request additional information not only from these
people but other people as well. People bringing up that Ivanka Trump is the senior and President Trump's daughter, but a senior advisor in the
White House is not included on this list.
GORANI: These are not subpoenas, but requests for documents. But subpoenas could come down the line, right?
SERFATY: That's right, they're not ruling that out at all. This is just the preliminary first step that this committee is making requesting these
documents. But, of course, if people do not get back, if they feel like they are not getting the proper documents they want, certainly Democrats on
the committee have not ruled out issuing those subpoenas. So, this is very clear that this is the first step in a very long process that will likely
captivate not only Capitol Hill and the White House, but the nation for many, many months to come.
GORANI: Jeremy Diamond in Washington, the President is hitting back. He's basically saying this is all a fishing expedition.
JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: That's right. You'll recall when Robert Mueller was at his most active, you saw the President
taking to Twitter to repeatedly assail his investigation. I think we're seeing the beginnings of a very similar move by the President now aimed at
the House judiciary committee. We've seen him tweet multiple times over the last 24 and 48 hours about these document requests, about these
investigations launched by the House judiciary committee. He's calling it Presidential harassment, he's calling it an overreach, a fishing expedition
as you saw in several of those tweets. But this is something the White House is going to have to come to get used to over the coming months. And
how are they going to deal with these document requests is the most interesting question here. Publicly, the House has indeed indicated that
it is going to comply with many of these requests, but privately we know that the White House has hired additional lawyers to deal with the inflow
of requests from this Democratic House now. And they are going to be looking very selectively at which documents they choose to share and not
share with the House Judiciary Committee. Of course, they want to maintain those questions of executive privilege, any confidential documents they
might want to keep out of Democrats' hands.
[14:05:00] GORANI: And I just want to remind our viewers that President Trump is in the White House right now. He's hosting an event aimed at
preventing veteran military suicide.
Jeremy, how are the President's approval numbers? Because this has been several weeks of very difficult news for the President to navigate.
There's been the Michael Cohen testimony, but also that summit in Hanoi that ended with no deal between North Korea and the United States on their
DIAMOND: Yes, certainly the President has had a tough go of it. Particularly last week with the double whammy of the Michael Cohen
testimony and, of course, also that summit with North Korea that fizzled out not quite as the President had hoped. So far, though, we haven't seen
quite the dip in the President's approval rating that we've seen in the past when he's gone through some of those more tumultuous periods. But
still, the President's approval ratings are not where he'd like them to be heading into a reelection year. The only silver ling for the President, of
course, remains his sky-high approval ratings among Republicans. Those people, you know, his base has continued to turnout to support the
President, and he is certainly focused on that as you mention.
GORANI: Jeremy Diamond, Sunlen Serfaty, thank you for joining me on the program.
The House Democrats have requested all those documents from so many people and entities that we had to use the tiniest possible font on this graphic
to show you who was certainly concerned with this investigative effort by the House of representatives. There is a new basically sheriff in town in
the sense the Democrats now control the House. The question is are they moving too fast? Are they playing into the hands of the President? Can he
now portray himself as truly the subject, the target of a too wide of a sweeping investigation of, as he likes to call it, a witch-hunt? Our
political commentator Doug Heye joins me now. He's a Republican strategist. What do you make, Doug, of the House of representatives really
just kind of pressing the gas pedal here with these investigations, potentially subpoenas coming down the line, of very high-profile advisors,
including potentially the President's daughter?
DOUG HEYE, CNN political commentator: The Judiciary Committee and the House Democrats as a whole they need to be careful here and learn the
lesson the Republicans learned when they were in charge of the Clinton investigation in the late '90s. I was working in the House of
representatives. We went too far, too fast and it ended up biting us. Not just in the neck, but somewhere else probably as well and caused real pain
for Republicans electorally. Democrats should learn from this. The problem that we see, and Jeremy highlighted, you talked about the polling
Donald Trump is intensely popular still among Republican voters at 93 percent, the problem is reality is very much in the eye of the beholder.
Democrats are saying, finally at last, somebody is putting checks and balances in Washington. There is some truth to that. Republicans are
looking at this and saying, it's a big fat fishing expedition, it's a big witch-hunt and so forth, and there could be some truth there. I would say
the paradoxical thing here for House Democrats is just as it was for Mueller, when there are allegations that you're performing a witch hunters
point, you have to catch witches which is what happened with Mueller. If you're going to be accused of a big dumb fishing expedition, Trump likes to
call everything big and dumb and so forth, you have to actually catch fish.
GORANI: That's the difference. You referenced the Clinton independent counsel investigations into Clinton. They didn't really -- they were never
charged with any wrongdoing, and none of the people around him, save for a couple, I think, related to a real estate deal from before the President
was elected, Clinton at the time. Whereas here, you really have the inner circle of the President, one after the other, kind of falling, cooperating,
being sentenced to hard jail time.
HEYE: Absolutely. And this circle is getting tighter and tighter for the President. It's part of why we're seeing him act, I'd say more erratically
than we usually do, which is obviously its own kind of statement. But that's why if you're Democrats, you need to be very careful and methodical
about how you move forward. They have a problem with their base that already wants to see the President impeached. That's not where the country
is. If they move slow and methodically and catch fish along the way, then they can put the best case forward that they'll ultimately want to put
forward as opposed to having a broad swath of the public just dismiss this as partisan politics as usual.
GORANI: If you're a Trump supporting Republican strategist, what are your thoughts now?
HEYE: Well, I'm not, but I'd be very nervous.
[14:10:02] GORANI: If you were -- for those who are, Yes, you'd be nervous why?
HEYE: For exactly what we've seen over the past few months, people who have been indicted, people who have pled guilty and it's been one domino
after another that draws the circle around the President tighter and tighter, which means it's ultimately going in the direction either of the
President himself or the President's family. That's a very bad place for Republicans to be.
GORANI: What would you advise to those in the President's inner circle, including some of his family members. To assert privilege, to not be
forthcoming with information when they appear on Capitol Hill? What would be the best strategy?
HEYE: The best strategy is to always be honest, especially when you're talking to Congress. Even if you're not sworn in, if you lie to Congress,
you have violated the law. That presents more problems for you moving forward. That's obviously what we saw with Michael Cohen. It gets you in
trouble. It gets those around you in trouble. You've got a story to tell and you're going to tell it, but you have to tell it as honestly as you
GORANI: All right. Thanks very much, Doug Heye, as always for joining us, Republican strategist.
HEYE: Thank you.
GORANI: With things moving fast on Capitol Hill in terms of investigations into the President's businesses, his political life and his personal life
extending all the way to his family. It seems every Democrat is either investigating President Trump or trying to be the one who will run against
him. But one big name officially ruled out, a run on Tuesday and that name is Hillary Clinton. She told the CNN affiliate News 12 Westchester that
she is not running again in 20.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HILLARY CLINTON, FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE: I'm not running, but I'm going to keep working and speaking and standing up for what I believe. I want to
be sure that people understand, I'm going to keep speaking out. I'm not going anywhere. What's at stake in our country, the kinds of things that
are happening right now are deeply troubling to me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
Well, there's already a very crowded field of Democrats running for President. We still haven't heard from big names like Joe Biden, Beto
O'Rourke or Michael Bloomberg.
With Britain's -- so we'll keep an eye on that.
There's another big political date coming up and it's coming up a lot sooner than in the U.S. it's here in the U.K. and that is Britain's
scheduled exit from the European Union just over three weeks away. Another important voice has entered the discussion, French President Emmanuel
Macron says Brexit is a symbol of the danger that Europe faces from fake news and nationalism. His comments come as British Prime Minister Theresa
May's government talks with European officials to find some sort of compromise British lawmakers will support. We're covering the story from
both sides of the English Channel. Bianca Nobilo is here with me in London and Jim Bittermann is standing by in Paris. So, talk to us more about what
Emmanuel Macron has said. We know he's a passionate and committed European. What is he trying to do now just a few days from that big
important meaningful vote in London next week?
Jim, can you hear me?
JIM BITTERMANN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: OK, yes, I can hear you, Hala. I thought you were going to go to Nobilo first. He is
basically talking about -- this is apparently -- it's probably from the heart for President Macron. Basically, he's pretty well known as a
committed European and totally anti-Brexit. He's made that clear over the past. There is an op-ed piece circulating in a number of newspapers across
Europe in which, basically, he's telling Europeans his vision for Europe, trying to make Europe more attractive. Here's what he said as a preamble
to this. Never since the second world war has Europe been so essential, yet never has Europe been so much in danger. Brexit stands as the symbol
of that. It's rejection without an alternative. And this is a trap that threatens the whole of Europe. The anger mongers backed by fake news
promise anything and everything. And that's clearly aimed straight at the Brexiters in London. Hala?
GORANI: Bianca who is here with me in the studio, anything Emmanuel Macron says about Europe will not come as a surprise to anyone in the U.K. there
is a big important vote next week. If the Prime Minister's deal doesn't go through, we're looking at really the unknown beyond that, right?
BIANCA NOBILO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: We are. And I think at the moment it's kind of a game of the least unlikely option. There really is no way to
calculate what happens next. There are some people that are fairly optimistic the Prime Minister's deal will get through. If not on the
attempt next week, perhaps the third and final attempt right as we are approaching that deadline.
[14:15:08] That is possible. But the reason why all of this is so hard to predict is because MPs themselves haven't actually decided exactly what
they're going to do. And, yes, it does look at though the Prime Minister's party voted against her in the historic defeat of 230 votes the first time
around might back her this time around.
GORANI: The alternative is -- the alternative is potentially -- their concern is, and maybe her strategy will pay off in the end. Her strategy
all along appears to have been -- I mean, keep pushing this deal, this unpopular deal that nobody likes because the alternative for Brexiters is
no Brexit at all.
NOBILO: Exactly. And I've been speaking to members of the European Research Group which is sort of the vanguard of the Brexiters in the U.K.
and for a few months now, I've noticed that position evolving. They've started to say that they do feel like every day it's almost like going into
a casino, and Brexit is to play for. If they make the wrong move, they might lose it, so they definitely have that sense that a delay of Brexit
might lead to a denial of Brexit. So, if they get into that extension territory, they are concerned about what that might lead to --
GORANI: They might be right to be concerned because you don't know what a general election will bring. But I want to ask Jim in Paris, Europe wide
here, I wonder as we get closer to this all-important date of March 29th, is there a concern that there will be a hard Brexit, that there will be
just the worst-case scenario will materialize?
BITTERMANN: I think they are concerned. The French, for example, are planning on that. They're taking the worst-case scenario and they're
already spending close to 60 million euros on new infrastructure to essentially reestablish the border coming across the channel as if there is
no Brexit deal whatsoever. Basically, putting back in customs controls, veterinary controls, food controls and that sort of thing that existed back
in 1995, but hasn't existed since then. So, yes, I think that there is a concern, but also preparations are being made everywhere for essentially a
hard Brexit. If it's something softer, they can always scale down the operations, but they're planning for the worst.
GORANI: Yes, we saw your report on how these poor dogs might have to get very expensive blood tests. And I hope that doesn't happen selfishly.
Thank you very much, Jim Bittermann and Bianca here in the studio. Still to come tonight, a father of an abuse victim says he plans to sue the
Catholic Church. One family's heart-breaking story and where it may lead next.
Plus, violent threats, violent abuse just for being Jewish. The problem of anti-Semitism in one of Europe's biggest political parties coming up.
We'll be right back.
[14:20:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GORANI: Some tense moments here in London today. Three explosive devices were found, improvised explosive devices, quite small. They were sent to
transportation hubs, including the waterloo tube station which you're seeing here. That's where we find CNN's Nina Dos Santos tonight. What
were these I.E.D.s? They were sent in envelopes, I understand.
NINA DOS SANTOS, CNN EUROPE EDITOR: That's right. They all appear to have been sent in the same yellow jiffy type envelopes, the padded envelopes.
It appeared to the media they were sent to the same address. That remains to be confirmed. The transportation hubs, I must point out these devices
weren't particularly large. The police say that they were enough to cause a small fire. They didn't interrupt transportation in these hubs. Around
5 or 10 minutes to U.K. time, building close to Heathrow Airport had been mailed one of these suspicious packages. Staff had opened this particular
package and it ignited. Around about lunch time then staff here, the postal rooms of waterloo station, which is a key underground station in the
London servicing many hundreds of thousands of commuters around the capital, but also a very important hub for trains and commuters heading to
the south and west of England, the mail room here intercepted another device which wasn't opened, and the police, of course, were called to deal
with that. About half an hour after that city airport in the east of London, one of its buildings had been mailed one of these devices as well.
I should point out neither Heathrow nor city airport and indeed Waterloo Station, none of these locations were shut, but they were temporarily
evacuated and the police are currently examining these suspicious devices. Hala?
GORANI: And I understand there is some cooperation or some communication between Scotland yard and the Irish police forces?
DOS SANTOS: Well, for the moment all we know is according to various U.K. media outlets, tweeting pictures of these parcels, they appear to have been
mailed from an address in the Republic of Ireland, although we have yet to confirm that with police sources officially. So, the big question will be
if these weren't particularly damaging devices, but they were sent to key transportation hubs, was this more of a disruptive effort by somebody who
may have wanted to cause disruption at the start of the commuters' day and also towards the end of the commuters' day as well. That does seem to have
happened, but counterterrorism police have opened an investigation and will be looking closely into who sent these parcels and also why they decided to
do this. As you pointed out earlier on before the break, Brexit is coming up very soon, so the big question mark here is does this -- is this a
disruptive matter that may have something to do with that for the moment. Authorities don't know, but you can bet they'll be exploring all avenues of
investigation. For the moment I should point out, Hala, for any commuters watching this show, Heathrow Airport was not closed. It remains open and
functional. Same for city airport, and also the same here for both the underground subway system at waterloo station as well as the trains. Hala.
GORANI: OK, great. Everything -- traffic is still flowing. Thanks very much for that. Nina Dos Santos with the small explosive devices in
envelopes sent to three locations in London.
After more than three months in jail, several failed attempts to get bail, and an appeal by prosecutors to keep him locked up, the former Nissan boss
Carlos Ghosn is set to be released at a cost of $9 million. That is as he awaits trial for financial misconduct, charges that he has denied from the
beginning. Ghosn could be released soon, but faces a number of bail conditions, including constant video surveillance and restrictions on his
use of computers.
I understand the U.S. President at this veteran's event at the White House is addressing the Russia investigation. Let's listen.
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The tax cuts, whether it's regulation cuts, whether it's the Veterans Administration, what we've done
with the Veterans Administration with choice nobody thought would be possible to get passed. No administration has done in its first two years
what the Trump administration has done.
[14:25:00] So what the Democrats want to do, they cannot stand the loss -- they could not stand losing in 2016. I see it all the time. I see people
getting -- I saw a certain person get up yesterday. The anger, the anger, and they just haven't gotten used to the fact that we won a lot of states
that haven't been won by Republicans in a long time. But essentially what they're saying is the campaign begins, instead of doing infrastructure,
instead of doing health care, instead of doing so many things that they should be doing, they want to play games. President Obama from, what they
tell me, was under a similar kind of a thing. Didn't give one letter, they didn't do anything. They didn't give one letter of the request. Many
questions were made. They didn't give a letter. It's too bad, because I'd see them do legislation -- we negotiate out legislation so many things, so
many things we agree on, like infrastructure. Bull they want to focus on nonsense. So, I just want to end by thanking all of the people that are in
this room today, very special people. The job you've done for the V.A. is incredible. And just keep up the good work. And, secretary, you've been
fantastic. Thank you very much. Thank you all.
GORANI: The U.S. President there saying that the Democrats couldn't stand their 2016 loss, and so they are focusing on, quote, nonsense. This is a
response, of course, to the request from Congressional committees, requests sent to 81 people and organizations, people include the President's own
sons as well. This could all culminate with subpoenas being issued for some of these people to testify on Capitol Hill. We have requests for
documents sent to AMI, which is of course the parent company of the "National Enquirer," to Steve Bannon, and Donald Trump has not just reacted
there at the White House, but also on Twitter, saying that this is a fishing expedition. But we do have a Quinnipiac Poll, a new one, that is
quite revealing. It is a new poll that has revealed that 30 percent of voters believe that Donald Trump is honest, and that is a new low. So only
30 percent within his own party, still very, very popular.
Still to come tonight, anti-Semitism, a growing problem in Europe, and now a crisis that is engulfing one of Britain's main political problems. The
problem Labour cannot make go away is next.
GORANI: British politicians may be knee deep in Brexit, but the opposition Labour Party led by Jeremy Corbyn is plagued by accusations of anti-
Semitism and some of its members face violent threats and extreme abuse just for being Jewish, they say. I sat down with one of them and others
within the party to find out what is going on.
The British Labour Party is engulfed in an anti-Semitism crisis that refuses to go away. The M.P. Margaret Hodge is among those accusing the
party leader Jeremy Corbyn of willfully turning a blind eye to racism against Jews by party members.
It's worrying that what has always been present at the extremes of the party on the fringes of the party, which is anti-Semitism, has now moved
into the mainstream.
Spend a few minutes looking at replies on Hodge's Twitter feed and you get a sense of the problem.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You filthy Zionist. You don't deserve to have a voice in the society. The time will come when you are shut up permanently. An
exceptionally rich YID. She's the very worst kind of scum.
GORANI: Look closely and you find many of the accounts associated with these tweets claim they are supporters of Corbyn.
HODGE: I think the leadership of the party has given permission for those views to be expressed. Again, as I said, they were always there.
GORANI (on-camera): Do you believe Jeremy Corbyn is anti-Semitic?
HODGE: I can talk to him in the summer myself. And I did feel that his refusal to understand the nature of anti-Semitism meant that he himself was
guilty. And if you're an anti-Semite, you're a racist.
GORANI (voice-over): Corbyn ally, Barry Gardenir denies Corbyn is racist, but accepts the party should have acted earlier to root out anti-Semites.
BARRY GARDINER, MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT OF THE UNITED KINGDOM: They are causing huge damage in our party and they're causing huge distress to the
And for that, we as a party have apologized and we are determined to get on top of this problem and to get those people out of the party.
GORANI (on-camera): You don't accept the charge that it's Jeremy Corbyn's leadership that is allowing voices that may have been there the whole time
to come up to the surface? You don't accept that charge on any level?
GARDINER: No. Look, can I -- can I be clear? The way in which we deal with any form of racism, but in particular the way in which we deal with
anti-Semitism in the party, is not a matter for the leader of the party.
In fact, it's not the matter for the leader of any of the political parties in the U.K. It's a matter for the party administration.
So it's the general secretary who does this. And the general secretary, since she came in last year, has actually put in place a number of new
processes and also doubled the resource -- the human resource going into the investigation of those complaints to make sure that it's done in a much
GORANI (voice-over): But some within the party remain unconvinced including nine M.P.s who quit the Labour Party two weeks ago, all of them
citing anti-Semitism among other reasons. Other party members have also quit, including Adam Langlaben of the Jewish Labour Movement. His group is
voting Wednesday on whether to break ties completely with the party after nearly 100 years of affiliation.
ADAM LANGLEBEN, EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE MEMBER, JEWISH LABOUR MOVEMENT: I think this may well end up destroying the Labour Party. Because if the
Labour Party can't stay true to its values of antiracism, then what is the point of the Labour Party existing?
GORANI: The effects extend beyond politics as well. Many people we spoke to in the Jewish communities of north London say trust in the party has
gone. Some saying they'd leave the country if Corbyn came to power.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think maybe many of the Jewish people will probably immigrate maybe to Israel or other countries. We feel we're not wanted
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What we have now is an extremist party, which is anti-Semitic like all extremists are.
GORANI: Fear runs deep on some of these streets, as the anti-Semitism controversy reaches far beyond the walls of Westminster.
GORANI: Well, while the U.K.'s Labour Party is grappling with an escalating anti-Semitism problem, Prime Minister May's -- Theresa May's
Conservative Party has suspended 14 members for Islamophobic and racist comments.
The independent newspaper in the U.K. which first reported the news says comments posted on a Facebook page supporting a key pro-Brexit conservative
lawmaker, included calls for Muslims to be, quote-unquote, "turfed out of public office" for the U.K. government to get rid of all mosques, quote-
unquote, "and refer to a leading British politician of Muslim dissent as a Trojan horse."
A spokesperson for the Conservative Party told CNN that the Facebook page is not affiliated to the party.
Now to Syria where U.S.-backed forces are on the verge of retaking the final stronghold of the terror group ISIS, over the past 48 hour. We've
seen thousands of people including fighters fleeing Baghouz.
ISIS once held huge parts of northern Syria and Iraq conducting a reign of terror for many who lived there. Now, its so-called caliphate is reduced
to this tiny bit of land.
So we're seeing a huge exodus. Everyone is going somewhere, and especially all those fighters as well. What happens to them?
Ben Wedeman joins me now live from eastern Syria.
So we've been talking days now about the final, final push. It hasn't happened. Why not?
[14:35:02] BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Because there are so many civilians inside or were inside that half square mile,
the zone, that's left of the state that called itself Islamic, Hala.
What we've seen in the last 48 hours is more than 6,000 people coming out of that tiny spec of land and dot on the map. We saw men of military age,
men who clearly would have been, and could have been fighters for the Islamic State, and hundreds and hundreds of women and children, numbers
we've never seen before.
It's important to keep in mind, until the last 48 hours, in the span of a month, February alone, 15,000 people came out of Baghouz, the town. I'm
not talking about the encampment.
But it's 48 -- in 48 hours, more than 6,000 people. And among them were many foreigners, more foreigners, sort of as a percentage of those coming
out, than we've seen so far. And significantly, we spoke to the wife of one of the men who claimed responsibility for the November 2015 terror
attacks that left more than 130 people killed.
This was the wife of Jean-Michel Clain and his brother and her brother-in- law, Fabien, who claimed responsibility for those attacks. Both of those men have been killed within the last two weeks. One by a drone strike that
seemed to have been targeted at him particularly, that's Jean-Michel Clain, and his brother Fabien was killed about two weeks ago in an airstrike.
We spoke to people from Finland, from Belgium, from Turkey, from Russia, from the various republics of the former Soviet Union. So, it does appear
that really there are still people still inside that small camp, fighters as well as some civilians, but far, far more have come out than anybody
thought were even there.
One woman we spoke to said that they have built trenches within those tents because it's mostly tents in there. Trenches about a meter and a half
deep, so when the bombings occur, they can have some sort of cover.
But the Belgian woman we spoke to said that there are dead all over, women and children, civilians, dead throughout that camp, which has been under
severe bombardment for the last few days. Hala?
GORANI: All right, Ben Wedeman, still on that story in Eastern Syria, the final push against ISIS who continues to cover that story with his team.
Thanks so much.
So, a lot of these ISIS fighters are from other countries. Now they're heading to camps as Ben explained. But where do they go after that? Some
of them are citizens of the U.K., others of Germany, France, for instance, is debating whether to take back these ISIS members.
But CNN's Melissa Bell tells us the country has already agreed to take in while they're debating whether to take the adults, to take in the
jihadist's children. Take a look.
MELISSA BELL, CNN PARIS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This is the last-known picture of Jana who's now 7. Ismail whose family doesn't want his face
shown is nearly 3, both are in Syria. Orphans of the falling ISIS caliphate.
Ismail's grandmother hopes to see him soon.
The Red Cross sent a picture of Ismail to his grandmother. He is one of around a hundred children captured from ISIS territory that France is
preparing to bring home. For now, they're being kept in Kurdish camps.
At first, the adults were to be brought to France and tried, but now President Macron says, they should be tried in those countries and could
face the death penalty.
But the children will come to France most are younger than seven. Nadia has been preparing a home for Ismail the grandson she's never met. Her
daughter ran away to Syria when she was just 14, secretly brainwashed says Nadia by the propaganda she found online.
Nadia believes that she is dead and is now desperate to bring home the son she bore in Raqqa. But she says French authorities have been slow to bring
home the children of the ISIS enemy.
Nadia is not alone. Other French families have been fighting a long and lonely battle for the children, either taken to ISIS territory or born
[14:40:00] SAMIA MAKTOUF, LAWYER: It is already too late. We waste one year. And since last year, we know in which count they are. We know that
they are French. We know that they have families in France and we haven't yet done nothing.
BELL: With France has scoured as it is by years of terrorism, the authorities have struggled with the idea of the returning Jihadist. We
reached out to French authorities but they did not respond to comment. Nadine Ribet-Reinhart who lost her son in the Bataclan believes that a
distinction needs to be made between those who chose ISIS and those that did not.
NADINE RIBET-REINHART, MOTHER OF BATACLAN VICTIM (through translator): Just because we are the parents of the deceased and wounded victims of the
November 13th attacks, that doesn't mean that we have lost our humanity.
So, of course we wish for the children to be brought home, to find a foster family, grandparents, but their parents, they must be judged. Yes, that is
BELL: But for some children, the problem is more complicated still. Jana is still thought to be in ISIS territory. Her father died after kidnapping
her from her mother and taking her to Syria.
Jana's uncle says he believes that she's in the hands of a Libyan family (INAUDIBLE) in Hajin, in eastern Syria.
MUSTAPHA, UNCLE OF ISIS ORPHAN (through translator): This pain has caused tensions between everyone. What we should be doing now, what we should
have done, but unfortunately, fate chose something else for this child to be kidnapped and to find herself today in a warzone.
BELL: Children stuck in a warzone and in another no man's land caught between the sins of their parents and their rights as French citizens and
Melissa Bell, CNN, Paris.
GORANI: Well, check us out on Facebook, facebook.com/halagoranicnn. And also on Twitter, @HalaGorani. We'll be posting some of today's show on
Still to come tonight, a second person may have been cured of HIV. What it could mean for the millions suffering from the virus. I speak to the lead
researcher of the study after the break.
GORANI: In 2007, the world was introduced to the first person who was cured of HIV. This is what Timothy Brown had to say to the world some
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TIMOTHY BROWN, CURED OF HIV: I don't like being the only -- I didn't like being the only person in the world cured of HIV because it's a lonely club.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: It still is a lonely club, but it may have doubled in size.
According to a study, a British man known as the London patient, has now been in remission from HIV for 18 months.
Like Brown in 2007, the London patient was being treated for cancer. That treatment included a stem cell transplant. Those cells were from a rare
donor resistant to HIV. Scientists say this proves the first time was not a fluke, and it could open doors for new treatment strategies in the
[14:45:03] Ravindra Gupta is the lead author of the study and professor at University College of London's division of Infection and Immunity. He
joined me from the conference on Retroviruses and Opportunistic Infections in Seattle. I asked him if he believed that the London patient was now
RAVINDRA GUPTA, HIV BIOLOGIST: It's a little bit early to use the term cure for this individual because he's only been off antiretroviral therapy
for 18 months. And that is a great feat in itself because it far exceeds any previous periods of remission from other cases (INAUDIBLE) patients, of
GORANI: Tell us how this worked, how this transplant led to a situation where this patient's HIV was in remission, in fact, undetectable.
GUPTA: Well, the key thing was chemotherapy, used for chemotherapy in the induction phase, and that has cleared a large proportion of his infected
cells. And, of course, the transplantation of resistant cells was very important as well.
GORANI: So the cells that were transplanted were transplanted from someone who is HIV resistant. Correct?
GUPTA: That's right.
GORANI: And that led ultimately to this patient's HIV to become undetectable.
GUPTA: That's right. The cellular reservoirs became undetectable following the chemotherapy and the transplantation procedure.
GORANI: I guess what for viewers is important to note is that this was not done with the intention of making the HIV virus undetectable. It was first
and foremost, a treatment to combat cancer, correct?
GUPTA: That's right, this individual had an aggressive lymphoma and transplantation was the last resort. Therefore, the anti-procedures was
taken primarily to treat the cancer. And the hematologist did search for a donor that had the mutation in the gene.
And fortunately, a donor was identified with a tissue match as well as the deletion of the gene.
GORANI: So this is not going to become some mass market treatment for HIV infections, not yet at least?
GUPTA: No, this is not a scalable approach. But, on the other hand, this study confirms the fact that CCR5 is a -- is a viable target for potential
GORANI: Is this something that could be used to -- for cancer, for instance, ultimately?
GUPTA: Yes, I think -- I mean, stem cell therapies certainly are being aimed at.
GORANI: Because this is professional, but it's also something -- I'm sure you poured a lot of yourself into as well.
GUPTA: That's right, I mean, it was like -- it was like a sort of -- quite a big thing. Of course, people are not so interested in this until the
months started accruing of treatment. And when we reached the 15 months, things were looking very different and people were very excited. We were
Of course, managing the expectations of the patient has been a challenge because we're still cautioning against saying that this is never going to
come back. While being optimistic for the future.
GORANI: All right. Stay optimistic, 18 months in remission from HIV. All very positive news. Thanks to that stem cell transplant. The question
being, of course, how long before this type of treatment can be applied on a wider scale. Could take some time, but all very promising right now.
Last week, we learned the third highest ranking official at the Vatican had been found guilty of sexually abusing children. Cardinal George Pell of
Australia was convicted for assaulting two choir boys.
The father of one of those boys says the abused destroyed his family. He spoke with Anna Coren.
ANNA COREN, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Dressed in his chorister robes, his hair brushed to one side, this young boy is a picture
of innocence and so much promise. It's the way his father tries to remember him.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If he wasn't playing across, he was at the football. If he wasn't at the football, he'd be at church, to the choir.
COREN: To be in the choir was a privileged position. He'd been handpicked along with two other boys from his local school to be a choir boy at St.
It came with a scholarship to a prestigious Melbourne private school, and a world his parents would never have been able to afford.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: For my son, it was a fabulous opportunity. Yes, and it would have been fabulous for his future.
COREN: But it was inside this bluestone basilica that sits on Eastern Hill in the city, where unspeakable crimes happened to his son and his friend
when they were just 13 years old. Neither the boys nor their families can be identified for legal reasons.
[14:50:59] A jury found that Cardinal George Pell, then-Archbishop of Melbourne, caught them in the priest's sacristy after Sunday Mass in 1996.
He forced the other choir boy to perform oral sex on him before indecently assaulting both boys. While his son never spoke of the attack, he says his
behavior the following year suggested something could gone terribly wrong.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was trying to mask on something that happened to him. He was trying to cover up something that had happened to him. So
heinous, so horrible.
COREN: His father says, he was kicked out of the choir, lost his scholarship, and fell into the wrong crowd. Within 12 months, his
treasured son was injecting heroin, an addiction that would eventually claimed his life after an accidental overdose in 2014. His parents had to
identify him at the morgue.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You look at him and you think, why? What a waste. What a waste of life.
COREN: He believes it was his son's death that would prompt the surviving choirboy to go to police. When Cardinal Pell was interviewed by Australian
detectives in Rome in 2016, he scoffed at the allegations.
CARDINAL GEORGE PELL, FORMER INAUGURAL PREFECT OF THE SECRETARIAT FOR THE ECONOMY: What a load of absolute and disgraceful rubbish. Completely
COREN: A jury found Pell guilty on all five charges of child sexual abuse. The 77-year-old maintains his innocence and has lodged an appeal.
COHEN (on-camera): Despite the fact, Cardinal George Pell is now a convicted pedophile, he still has enormous support here in Australia.
Former prime minister's media commentators, even some church leaders have all questioned the veracity of the jury's decision. Sowing the seeds of
doubt as to whether the crimes that took place inside this Cathedral 22 years ago ever happened at all.
LISA FLYNN, HEAD, SPECIALIST PERSONAL INJURY: This isn't a case where there's been only allegations. There has been a unanimous jury verdict of
guilt in this case. And to suggest that somehow the jury didn't get it right and that the victims and the survivors should still not be believed,
I think is incredibly dangerous.
COREN (voice-over): The father is now considering a civil case against the church which if successful could prove to be a test case for other
survivors and their families who have been betrayed by an institution that was supposed to keep children safe.
Anna Coren, CNN, Melbourne.
GORANI: Quick break. We'll have a lot more after this.
GORANI: Well, Facebook is facing a new controversy over privacy concerns. It's all about a security function that, once you're in, you can't opt out
Samuel Burke joins me now. And, Samuel, this involves giving your phone number for that two-factor authentication. But then what happens once you
give your phone number?
SAMUEL BURKE, CNN BUSINESS AND TECHNOLOGY CORRESPONDENT: Well, I just want to take a step back because this situation actually happens to people a
lot. I think they've had this creep factor before where you give somebody your phone number, and then all of a sudden on Facebook it says, oh, this
person wants to be your friend. Or we think you should be friends with this person.
The example that I had happened to me, is I gave a plumber my phone number because I needed to be in contact with a plumber. And then all of a sudden
it was suggesting that the plumber and I be friends.
[14:55:04] GORANI: Did you know why when that happened?
BURKE: No, I wasn't. I mean, I knew either it had the information from WhatsApp or Facebook or someway.
But what we have learned in the past few days is that when you enter your phone number for two-factor authentication, something that I advocate for
often on this show because it means that if somebody has your password, they can't get in to your account without having a code sent to your phone.
But when you enter that phone number on your -- on Facebook, they're using that now. It's kind of a social security number for you. An identifier
for you. But you can't opt out of it.
GORANI: But what if I don't want people who have my phone number to find me on Facebook or on social media? I can't -- I can't tell Facebook not to
connect me with people that way?
BURKE: Exactly. So you need to sign up for this service. This is one of the most important parts of cyber security, having two-factor
identification. But Facebook, it's been discovered, just won't let you opt out of using it so that other people can find you.
The danger here is that if somebody figures out your phone number, for example, then they can start to see, OK, who is this person? If I found
Hala Gorani's phone and I figure out the number, and it opens up really a Pandora's Box.
The only thing here is this reveals how much tech companies have made your phone number a key part of your online identity.
GORANI: But what's the solution, then? Changing phone numbers? Nobody wants to do that. People keep their phone numbers now for many, many
BURKE: Exactly. It used to be if you move from one place to another --
GORANI: It's a hassle. Although sometimes, I wonder if it's not actually such a bad thing if every few years you change your phone number. What is
wrong with that?
BURKE: That's the problem here is that we found something that really helps keep us safe, this two-factor authentication. So if all of a sudden
we need to stop using that because we feel that Facebook is using it to connect us to people to whom we don't want to be connected or maybe using
it for marketing purposes down the line, then we're losing something that's incredibly important.
I mean, every time I do a hacking story on this show, I say, turn on two- factor authentication. That way, if somebody has your password, if they don't -- if they don't have your phone, which in all likelihood they don't,
you're still safe.
This really puts into question all that and this is not a norm that any other social media company is using that we're aware of. And a real
headache for Facebook. I think this is a potential to be a much bigger story.
GORANI: I don't want to be tracked down by my plumber, my electrician, or frankly most people. I don't want to be tracked by -- I just want to be --
BURKE: Just give people the option to opt out. That's all Facebook has to do. Case closed. But they're not doing it so far.
GORANI: And Mark Zuckerberg, by the way, this is how rich he is. His net worth plunged by $9 billion. It didn't make a dent though, did it?
BURKE: He's never been able to recover from the whole Cambridge Analytica scandal. I bought stock after that. Because I thought, how low can it go?
It's going to go back up. And it hasn't gone back up for me or for Mark. Although, I feel worse for me than I feel for Mark.
GORANI: So do I.
Thanks very much, Samuel Burke. Have a great evening, rest of your evening.
And thanks for watching tonight. I'm Hala Gorani. "QUEST MEANS BUSINESS" is next. Stay with us.