Return to Transcripts main page

HALA GORANI TONIGHT

Sources Say Trump Ordered Daughters Security Clearance; Homeland Security Secretary Defends Immigration Policies; Reports Say North Korea Rebuilding Missile Engine Test Site; US Trade Deficit Soars to Record High; Singer Tearfully Denies Sexual Abuse Charges. Aired 2-3p ET

Aired March 6, 2019 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[14:00:00] HALA GORANI, CNN HOST: Hello, everyone. Coming to you live from CNN London, I'm Hala Gorani. Tonight, another day of political

battles for Donald Trump as CNN learns the President is accused of ordering security clearances for his daughter Ivanka. Also, his former attorney

Michael Cohen delivering new evidence on Capitol Hill. We'll be live in Washington.

Also, tonight, North Korea looks to be rebuilding a missile engine test site after Trump and Kim Jong Un's failed talks in Hanoi.

And later this hour, R. Kelly says he's fighting for his life. Is he denying sexual abuse charges in an emotional interview? We'll be

discussing the wider implications of this story. And we begin this hour with U.S. President Donald Trump in the political fight of his life as he

faces an avalanche of investigations. The latest revelation involves his daughter, Ivanka Trump. Sources tell CNN Mr. Trump ordered a security

clearance for her over the objections of his staff, just as he reportedly did for his son-in-law Jared Kushner. The White House is refusing to hand

over documents on the matter, setting up what could be a legal fight. We're also following another dramatic day on Capitol Hill for Trump's

former attorney Michael Cohen. He is testifying behind closed doors, but we learned he delivered some potentially explosive documents. Let's get

right to our reporters in Washington. For the latest we're joined by White House correspondent Abby Philip, Congressional correspondent Phil Mattingly

joins us as well. What are we learning about what Michael Cohen testified to on Capitol Hill today?

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hala, what we are learning is Michael Cohen brought documents to prove there had been edits

made to his statement that ended up being false and that he was convicted of and found guilty of lying to Congress in his last time testifying on

Capitol Hill. What these documents back up or at least what they are intend today back up is Michael Cohen's public testimony last week where he

talked about how the President's lawyer, specifically Jay Sekulow, edited some of his public statement or his statement to the committee that ended

up being false. Now, we don't know exactly what the documents show was edited. We don't know if it specifically shows false statements were

edited. And if you recall, Hala, last week Jay Sekulow put out a statement saying if they had changed any testimony to make it false was not true.

But that is what we're hearing right now. Michael Cohen is still behind closed doors bringing documentation to provide the committee proof of what

he said publicly last week. We expect his time behind closed doors to continue for the next several hours or so. There are a number of issues

the committee wanted to get into, not just his public testimony last week, but also the issue of whether or not he or his attorneys ever asked for

pardons. No shortage of issues based on that public testimony. The committee wanted to get into. Remember, Hala, he came for a closed-door

session last week. They didn't have time to finish the questions they had. That's what they're doing right now.

GORANI: Abby, other issues for reports the President ordered for his daughter they received security clearance above the objections of some

administration officials. Tell us more about what we know.

ABBY PHILIP, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: That's right. Last year at a time when these clearances were being evaluated by career officials, they

were taking a long time. Some red flags were being raised about both Jared Kushner and Ivanka Trump. From our understanding, it's for not necessarily

the same reasons, and we don't know exactly what those are. But it got to the point where the then Chief of Staff John Kelly and the White House

Counsel Don McGahn rejected Ivanka's clearance, saying they did not want to issue it to her because of the concerns that were being raised. But the

President was frustrated by this process and he first ordered them to give her a clearance. They refused, and so he did it himself. This is the

second known time that he did that. What that raises are concerns about why the President overruled a normal process here. Was he giving

favoritism to his daughter, to his son-in-law? And exactly what those concerns are. Those are some of the questions that Congressional Democrats

want to look into. But some of the -- one of the interesting things about this are the misstatements that were made, the falsehoods that were told by

both the President and by Ivanka Trump and their lawyers about these processes. The President told "The New York Times" in an interview that he

didn't have anything to do with it. He even implied that he didn't even know he had the power to. Of course, he did have the power to and it

appears that he knew that because he did, in fact, overrule this normal process, granted them to his son-in-law and to his daughter. Can then he

told "The New York Times" many months later that he had nothing to do with it.

[14:05:00] Clearly untrue. Ivanka Trump said the same thing, but a source close to her said that it is possible that she didn't know that her father

had put the thumb on the scale in her favor. She was told -- she may have been told by career officials that this went through a normal process, even

though it did not.

GORANI: Yes, because she said in an interview on camera that she received no special treatment.

Let me ask you, Phil, about Adam Schiff who is the chairman of the House intelligence committee, hiring an ex-organized crime attorney to help in

the investigation into Mr. Trump. Is this significant?

MATTINGLY: Yes, it absolutely is, Hala. I think one of the key things to remember up here on Capitol Hill, lawmakers and committees themselves, they

get the headlines. They are the ones who are on camera. It's the staff that decides whether or not an investigation, which is what Adam Schiff has

made very clear his committee is digging into, specifically reopening their own Russia probe now that they've taken control of the House. It's the

staff that makes -- kind much determines whether or not the investigations actually have teeth. Dan Goldman, assistant attorney at the southern

district of New York, worked on Russian mafia, in that regard worked on money laundering issues as well. These are crucial issues they want to

look into. Adam Schiff is bringing people with that experience, that cache specifically underscores the fact not only is the investigation serious,

but they are problematic for the White House.

GORANI: I want to ask Abby one quick last one on the secretary of Homeland Security in a heated exchange about the Trump administration's immigration

policy at the border. She was asked specifically about children who are detained, and this is the exchange.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. BENNIE THOMPSON (D), CHAIRMAN, HOMELAND SECURITY COMMITTEE: Are we putting children in cages as of today?

KIRSTJEN NIELSEN, HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY: Children are processed at the border facility stations that you've been at, some of them --

THOMPSON: And I've seen the cages. I want you to admit that the cages exist.

NIELSEN: Sir, they're not cages.

THOMPSON: What are they?

NIELSEN: Areas of the border facility that are carved out for the safety and protection of those who remain there while they're being processed. If

we have two gangs, we separate them into separate areas of the facility.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GORANI: So, Abby, this has fallen out of the headlines, this story, because so much else goes on with this pretty crazy Trump news cycle. But

this is still an issue that is dogging this administration.

PHILIP: Absolutely. And it's an issue that Congressional Democrats are working overtime to keep in the news to highlight. The family separation

issue at the border is one of the main things they wanted to talk to Kirstjen Nielsen about. And what that exchange seems to be about is an

issue of semantics. Do you call the sort of areas that were carved out with chain link fences a cage or do you call it something else? But the

problem for the administration is that their denials about this issue don't really match up with the facts. Nielsen also said repeatedly there was no

policy of child separation, that it was not used as a deterrent. That seems to fly in the face of actually the public statements that were made

at the time that this policy was put in place by then Attorney General Jeff Sessions, who noted that families should think twice about making the

journey because they could be separated from their children. So, this is - - the purpose of this hearing is to highlight these issues once again. But as you can see, Nielsen kind of painted herself into a corner here on this

issue and on several others related to the child separation problem.

GORANI: Abby Philip, thanks very much. Phil Mattingly on Capitol Hill. Thanks again to both of you.

While President Trump is dealing with investigations at home, he also has a new headache overseas. New satellite images appear to show North Korea has

begun rebuilding missile engine test site that had been inactive since August. The report comes just days after the collapse of denuclearization

talks between the U.S. and North Korea. You'll remember President Trump walked away in Hanoi. There was a lunch scheduled, a whole opportunity to

sign something, all of that was scheduled. None of it happened because the President walked away. Our Pentagon correspondent Barbara Starr has the

latest on all of this. Is this coming as a surprise that North Korea is rebuilding on that site?

[14:10:05] BARBARA STARR, CHIEF PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: I don't think it's a total surprise at this point. The activity, look, it's fairly minor, if

you will. There's no indication that North Korea is moving towards at this point any resumption of missile or weapons testing. It's not that kind of

work. But, in fact, they are making some improvements, some construction at this site that the activity, look, it's fairly minor, if you will.

There's no indication that North Korea is moving towards at this point any resumption of missile or weapons testing. It's not that kind of work.

But, in fact, they are making some improvements, some construction at this site that had been dormant since august. So, one of the big questions is

why, because when the North Koreans do this, they know full well U.S. satellites overhead will capture that activity and show it to the world.

So, you know, the North Koreans clearly wanted the world to see that they were again active at this site in North Korea, which you have to worry

about is what the satellite doesn't see, the things that are very secretive and hidden away. So, what is the message that Kim Jong-un regime might be

sending right now? Well, you know, they had made clear that they wanted some concessions on sanctions in return for any move on denuclearization,

and so far, they're not making a move on denuclearization. So, you know, post-Hanoi summit, everything seems to be exactly where it was. And, in

fact, the national security advisor John Bolton said if the North Koreans don't make a move towards denuclearization, the Trump administration might

decide to ratchet up sanctions so there's a long way to go on all of this after the Hanoi summit just to see how far both sides go in being annoyed

each other and whether they can sit down and have talks on any progress. Hala in

GORANI: Barbara Starr at the Pentagon. Thanks for that update.

Next up on the challenges facing the President, remember that campaign promise to shrink the trade deficit? Mr. Trump is falling short on that

promise and here is a big number to show you just how much. The U.S. now has a record high $891 billion trade deficit for merchandise and goods.

The overall trade deficit has grown by more than $100 billion since the start of the Trump presidency. What is going on? Stephen Moore is CNN's

senior economics analyst, also a distinguished fellow at the Heritage Foundation and former Economic Advisor for President Trump. Steven, this

number has got to disappoint you regardless of whether or not you support President Trump. This is eye popping. We're talking -- we're $100 billion

away from a trillion dollars in merchandise deficit between the U.S. and the rest of the world in trade.

STEPHEN MOORE, CNN SENIOR ECONOMICS ANALYST, DISTINGUISHED FELLOW AT THE HERITAGE FOUNDATION AND FORMER ECONOMIC ADVISOR FOR PRESIDENT TRUMP: Well,

I may surprise you with my answer, which is I'm not disappointed by this number. You know, the facts are very clear. In fact, I used to tell

Donald Trump, if you want to reduce the trade deficit, just have a good long recession and the trade deficit will go away. The trade deficit

actually goes up every time we have a very prosperous economy because it means consumers have more money in their pockets and they spend more and

they buy more from other countries and then we have another thing that's going on in the world economy, which is that because of tax cuts and the

deregulation environment of pro-business policies, the United States is sucking in capital, investment capital from the rest of the world. And to

get the dollars that foreigners need to invest in the United States, they have to sell us more than we sell to them.

GORANI: That wasn't a campaign promise. I get what you're saying. It's not a disaster to have a trade deficit in goods. This goes counter

completely to the promise of Donald Trump. He said he would bring jobs back to the rust belt. He didn't do that. Wages are going down. General

Motors is closing plants and cutting staff. This is all going against the President's promise. And that's the point.

MOORE: Well, let's be clear on the facts here. I just got back from the Midwest, the rust belt states, they're booming. I got back from Ohio,

Michigan and Pennsylvania. Employers can't find enough workers because we've created a lot of jobs --

GORANI: Wager growth is down in Ohio, for instance, where GM plants have cut jobs, that's a fact.

MOORE: Ohio has a surplus jobs of several hundred thousand right now because of the boom that's going on in manufacturing in this country.

We've created a million manufacturing and construction jobs in the last two years since Trump was elected. We have 7.1 million surplus jobs. We have

the lowest unemployment rate in 50 years.

GORANI: The overall unemployment rate is certainly historically low. It's just that you look at reports coming from places like Ohio, from Detroit,

from, you know, GM plants, for instance, where there was a promise of increased jobs and increased wages. In many cases that promise has not

been delivered. That is a fact as well, Steven.

[14:15:04] MOORE: I just have to disagree. Look, I was just there. I was talking to a lot of the employers there. I mean, Ohio has their best

economy in 20 years. It just simply isn't true that the rust belt is rusting. They're bringing a lot of jobs back. Ohio is now the capital of

the world for natural gas production. More natural gas is produced in Ohio and Pennsylvania than virtually anywhere else in the world. It isn't true.

Rust belt is back with employment rates, lot of job opportunities. Look, the trade deficit is up, as I said, because the economy is doing so well.

Consumers have money to spend. I said, Donald if we get you to 3 to 4 percent growing -- just last week we got 3.1 percent growth, which is a

really strong number especially given Europe is pretty flat line, China's growth rate has fallen in half. Look, our economy is in a full ahead boom

right now. There's no question about it. We like the wages. We like the low unemployment rate, we love the construction, it's hard to find

something to complain about.

GORANI: You could complain about the trade wars that have cost the United States economy a few billion. I'm sure you've seen the Center for Economic

Policy Research concluding this trade war has cost the U.S. economy $1.4 billion a month. That these tariffs hurt consumers a lot more than they

hurt exporters of other countries to the United States. Is that something you can agree with?

MOORE: Let me give you some good news on that. Look, I agree. I'm a free trade guy. I don't want a trade war. We do think we have very legitimate

grievances with China. They lie, they cheat, they steal, they're stealing $300 billion of our technology a year. There was a story on the front page

of "The Wall Street Journal." About how they are hacking into our computer systems. They are involved in industrial espionage.

We can't live with that any more. Trump is getting tough with China. It's the appropriate thing to do. The good news is, by the way, it looks like -

- I don't want to jump the gun on this, but it looks like they're going to have a trade deal done. By the way, you think the U.S. economy is strong

now. Wait until we get that China trade deal done.

GORANI: Meantime, it's costing the economy money. Does the President understand the concept of tariffs and that tariffs that are applied to

products that come into the United States are passed on to the consumer ultimately in the economy?

MOORE: Well, look, I mean, you can't have it both ways. You can't say it's a huge problem, we have a big trade deficit, then Trump has these

tariffs. One of the purposes of the tariffs is to get America to buy fewer foreign goods. The wage and salary and income are going up faster than

that. I feel good -- let me put this like this. I feel a lot better today where we are with respect to the China trade negotiations than I did, you

know, half a year ago or a year ago. I think most people, investors certainly are optimistic about this. If Trump gets this trade deal, guess

what, China's tariffs will go down, not up. We may have a situation where we're lowering our tariffs so we can free our trade with Donald Trump in

the White House. We will see.

GORANI: Well, the other thing you can look at, though, is the economy is doing great. Corporations got tax cuts. Richer Americans got tax cuts.

It's basically an injection into the economy that was doing well already. It didn't really need it. And this is something that Americans will have

to pay for down the line. Because this increases the budget deficit.

MOORE: Yes, look, my view is that the economic boom didn't happen by accident, right? It happened because we cut taxes. It happened because we

got regulations off the back of our business. Other countries should look at what the United States has done and do the same thing. Now, look, our

budget deficit is up, Congressional Budget Office just reported last month that they now believe after the tax cut that the GDP of the United States

over the next 10 years will be $7 trillion larger than they thought it would be. It was a smart thing to do. We're happy with the way it's

going. Wages are up now the first time in 15 years for American workers.

GORANI: Stephen Moore, thanks very much for joining us. Appreciate it.

MOORE: Thank you, appreciate it.

GORANI: Always a good discussion on the economy.

Still to come tonight, an extraordinary interview. R. Kelly says he is fighting for his life, as he is denying abuse allegations. Hear exactly

what he said and see exactly what he did as well next.

[14:20:06] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

R. KELLY, SINGER ACCUSED OF SEXUAL ABUSE: I have been assassinated.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GORANI: The breath-taking words of R. Kelly as he tried to defend himself on television for the first time since being charged with sexual abuse.

The singer has been indicted on ten counts of aggravated criminal sexual abuse allegedly involving four under-age victims. He denied the charges

when he sat down with Gayle King on CBS and actually, I say sat down, but take a look at this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KELLY: I didn't do this stuff. This is not me. I'm fighting for my [bleep] life. Y'all killing me with this [bleep]. I can't even --

[bleep].

GAYLE KING, CBS CO-HOST: Robert.

KELLY: Y'all trying to kill me. You're killing me, man. Y'all just don't wanna believe the truth. You don't wanna believe it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GORANI: For more on this case and its wider implications let's speak to Lisa

in Atlanta. What's been the reaction to people -- you've covered this story and written columns about the R. Kelly case, among people who have

seen this interview today?

LISA RESPERS FRANCE, CNN SENIOR ENTERTAINMENT WRITER: The sense is people believe was what they see is R. Kelly unraveling because he will be sent

to jail this time around. He was able to beat the charges over a decade ago. He was fully acquitted and now people believe that he sees the end

coming and he does it does not look good to him and that's why he's having such an emotional reaction. You saw him leap from his seat. He's crying.

He's yelling. He's pounding his fist. I mean, it was incredible. I've never seen anything like it before in my life.

GORANI: And this, of course, these allegations have been around a long time, Lisa, of R. Kelly's behavior with women, much younger women. There

was that infamous sex tape that circulated as well. And then "Surviving R. Kelly" aired on television and that re-ignited all of this. The women of

color branch, by the way, of the time's up campaign have released this statement. For too long our community has ignored our pain, the pain we

bear is a burden that too many women of color have had to bear for centuries. The wounds run deep. That's another aspect of this story, this

R. Kelly story, is women of color having felt ignored for so long when they report sexual assault.

FRANCE: Absolutely. And the argument has been made that people ignored all the speculation and all the chatter about R. Kelly and young women and

girls because they were black. But let's be clear, black women are the reason why R. Kelly has been investigated again and the reason why he's

been charged. They refuse to be silent. When "Surviving R. Kelly" came on, they took to social media to say, look, we've been telling you this.

Now you see these women sharing their stories.

[14:25:00] You see their tears, you see their families, you see everything that's going on. What are you going to do about did it? Bill Cosby, other

men in power that have been brought to trial. They kept asking the question, why isn't R. Kelly being charged? And that's happened.

GORANI: There was that whole campaign called #mute R. Kelly. These were all black women behind these movements and they just refused to let go of

this.

FRANCE: Right. They weren't going to be silent. They weren't going to be quiet. The mute R. Kelly movement was really focused on getting his music

to not be played on streaming services and radio as a way to bring attention to the fact that, hey, people have been talking about this for

years. There's been evidence, they feel, that these allegations could actually be true. So why is no one looking into did? And why is R. Kelly

not getting swept up in the whole #time's up and #metoo movement like so many other men have been, men in Hollywood and men in power.

GORANI: And here's another clip, by the way, if from that interview with Gayle King where it's that defense, I've heard before from other men. Why

would I need to do this? I'm rich, I'm famous, I don't need to do any of this stuff to get women to want to be with me. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KELLY: Forget the blogs. Forget how you feel about me. Hate me if you want to, love me if you want. But just use your common sense. How stupid

would it be for me to -- with my crazy past and what I've been through, right now I think I need to be a monster and hold girls against they will,

chain them up in my basement and don't let them eat and don't let them out unless they need some shoes down the street from their uncle.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GORANI: I wonder, is this a tipping point, do you think, this case? This R. Kelly sexual assault case -- I mean, just in the entertainment

industry, is this a tipping point?

FRANCE: I think absolutely. And I think he really didn't do himself any favors with this appearance because you got to see his temper and you also

got to see him claim that his problem -- he said, I need help. But what he said he need help for, he has such a big heart and he said that people keep

betraying him and he keeps forgiving them. And Gayle King pointed out, you're making yourself out to be the victim and that did not play well.

So, I think that it's very much a tipping point in that people want to see if there are these allegations, they at the very least want to see the

allegations investigated as is the case here. They want women to feel empowered to speak up because for so long women felt like they're not going

to be heard. Now we're in a position where women are being heard. And being believed, exactly.

GORANI: Especially if you're the girlfriend or initially maybe the willing girlfriend of a celebrity or rich man, or a man in a position of power.

And then that man acts in an abusive way towards you and I think no one is ever going to believe me, that a star or someone with this much power would

need to abuse me in this way to keep me in his orbit.

FRANCE: It's fascinating because one of the things he blamed was social media. He said it's so easy to just up load or go on social media and say

someone has done something to them. There is power in social media and people have the opportunity to have their voices heard. It gets spread

very widely. And then people can come behind and say, what do you have to say for yourself? Gayle king with this exclusive interview, she gave R.

Kelly the opportunity, she gave him the stage to say what he wanted to say. We saw exactly what happened. He was angry. He's frustrated. He's

crying. He believes that the entire world is against him and this is all a conspiracy to bring him down and these women are saying, no, this is what

happened to us and we want the world to know it.

GORANI: Lisa, thanks very much for joining us from Atlanta. Appreciate it.

FRANCE: Thank you.

GORANI: Lot more to come this evening. The level of knife crime in this country in Britain is at the highest level ever recorded. What's being

done about did? I speak to a man who turned his life around, is now trying to steer others down the same path. And also, I want to ask him what are

some of the solutions out there. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:30:00] HALA GORANI, CNN HOST: Welcome back. We're expecting an appearance by President Trump who has hosted the family of an American

hostage held in Yemen. Let's go to the White House.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We'll see what happens. They'll either going to be a good deal or it's not going to be a deal, but

I think they're moving on very nicely. Thank you.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: -- are you breaking a promise by rebuilding a key missile launch site?

TRUMP: Well, we're going to see. It's too early to see, but we have to solve a problem. We have a very nasty problem there. We have to solve a

problem. The relationship is good. I would be very disappointed if that were happening. It's a very early report. We're the ones that put it out.

But I would be very, very disappointed in Chairman Kim, and I don't think I will be, but we'll see what happens. We'll take a look. It'll ultimately

get solved. Thank you all very much. I appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, everybody.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE)

TRUMP: We'll have to see how the vote goes. See how the vote goes.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GORANI: And that was an event at the White House that the President organized to host the family of Danny Burch who is an American held hostage

in Yemen, who was released. So, Danny Burch and his family were visiting the President, and reporters asked about these reports and these satellite

images that we covered at the beginning of the hour, that North Korea had shown some renewed activity at one of its test sites. And the President

said it's too early to see, that he'd be very disappointed if that were true. But that the relationship is good, that he doesn't believe that it's

true, though he'd be disappointed if it were true that Chairman Kim were, in fact, renewing activity or rebuilding some parts of this test site in

North Korea. So, it's a basically wait-and-see reply to those reporter questions on that story.

Now, to a story dominating the headlines here in the U.K., Theresa May is going to hold a summit in the next few days to discuss the spate of knife

crime across the country. The Prime Minister has come in for sharp criticism after saying the surge was not a result of cuts to the police

force. But away from the political arguing, dozens of families are having to deal with losing their young ones to a terrible increase in knife crime.

Nina dos Santos has our report.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NINA DOS SANTOS, CNN EUROPE EDITOR: This is what the U.K.'s knife crime epidemic looks like. Filmed in South London more than a year ago, a man

tries to smash his way into a car with a Rambo knife, after its driver pulled out unexpectedly. Another scene, this time at a fast food outlet in

the north of the capital. A fight breaks out and within seconds, three blades are brandished.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What the (BLEEP) are you doing on this street?

DOS SANTOS: Knife attacks claims 285 victims across Britain last year, the highest tally since records began in 1946. In the first three months of

2019 alone, 10 teenagers have lost their lives.

Rachel, thank you very much for agreeing to tell us your story. Please sit down.

Rachel Webb's 15-year-old son, Kyron, died a year and a half ago, after a trivial dispute with two other boys.

RACHEL WEBB, MOTHER OF KNIFE CRIME VICTIM: The young boys were in their group and they made a song. And Kyron said on a Snapchat video that he

didn't like the song. And that potentially is the reason that we were given as to why he's no longer walking the earth.

DOS SANTOS: Wasn't a gang member, his mother says, but he was found to be carrying a knife at the time. Five months after losing one child, another

of Rachel's sons was also stabbed. He survived, but the family's scars remain.

WEBB: Those three individuals that were involved in the incident on October 17th, it left my son dead, but it left two young boys in prison.

But the ripple effect destroyed three families. My youngest two, they're twins. When they go on the road, they're now frightened of seeing

teenagers.

DOS SANTOS: Knife crimes rose 30 percent last year across the country to almost 43,000, atrend blamed on cuts to policing and community services.

Are all of the youngsters who are carrying knives in gangs?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, I think a very small minority are in gangs. I think what's now happened is that young people carry knives for protection,

and the bizarre thing is statistically, seven out of 10 individuals who get stabbed get stabbed by their own knife.

[14:35:03] WEBB: So, that's -- that was Kyron at the time when he died.

DOS SANTOS: Rachel says the solution isn't just policing but better prospects for youths. She plans to meet her son's killer in jail this year

with a message to turn his life around.

WEBB: You now need to complete what Kyron was building. You got potential. I don't want to hear, oh, I'm sorry. I want you to now make

something of your life.

DOS SANTOS: Message of hope not hate to prevent things like these. Nina dos Santos, CNN London.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GORANI: So, as Nina's report showed, knife crime has been affecting communities for quite a while now and with lawmakers scrambling for some

big-picture solutions, what can be done to make a difference on the ground? It's a topic we looked at in our series, "LIFE CHANGERS." This is one man

and what he is doing in East London.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BOBBY KASANGA, FOUNDER, HACKNEY WICK FC: So, today, we're going to work -- we're going to be working on some of you guys' (INAUDIBLE)

GORANI: It took two stints in prison for Bobby Kasanga to realize his life needed a change of direction. Growing up a member of a south London gang,

Bobby was once deep in a world of crime and violence.

KASANGA: I saw so many (INAUDIBLE) people in prison, and I just thought that they were misguided. So, it sort of told me that when I get out, I

need to create a platform for some of these young youth just to get them a way out.

We're all done. We're all done (INAUDIBLE)

GORANI: That's when Bobby set up a football club in East London, Hackney Wick, named after the local neighborhood. The goal, to steer young men

away from the lifestyle that nearly killed him.

KASANGA: There's a point in 2007 where things just spiraled way out of control, my older brother was shot four times in 2008, he nearly died. And

my younger brother was constantly getting involved in altercations. It was a very scary moment. I honestly can't count how -- on my fingers and toes

how many friends are dead.

GORANI: Friends like fellow footballer Anthony Ogazi, pictured here next to Bobby. He was stabbed to death in 2008. In the past few years, knife

crime has surged to record levels in London. 83 people were killed in knife attacks in the 12 months to September 2018.

KASANGA: It feels that nothing ever changes and the violence is really real, and that's why to teach some of these kids is that once you're dead,

you're dead. There's no coming back from that.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GORANI: Bobby Kasanga is here on set with me. Thanks for coming in.

KASANGA: Thank you for having me.

GORANI: So, the Prime Minister is saying she wants to organize a summit and talk about this on the national stage. Do you think that will make a

difference?

KASANGA: I think it will make a difference in the sense that now people are looking. It's been (INAUDIBLE) for the last year has been ridiculous,

and no one has really batted an eyelid. And now that the Prime Minister says she's going to do something about it, let's look and hope that

something does happen.

GORANI: What do you think needs to be done? Do you need more police on the streets?

KASANGA: There's so many things that needs to be done. We can say more police but it's not only that. There's been cuts and services for the last

10-15 years now. And these youths have nothing to do. But not also them, these educations in schools, education in terms of the parents as well,

because some of these parents are not checking their -- where their children are. If your child is 14, 15 years old, you should know exactly

where they are, who they're hanging out with, and that's what happens, the parents are not aware of these things as well.

GORANI: But how do you change that though?

KASANGA: Education starts from -- I guess it has to be government policy is what based off since school is where kids are taught about gangs and

(INAUDIBLE) from a very young age, so it becomes a deterrent just as a tool of any other deterrents in life -- is what I think is something that has to

be from -- brought down and work your way up.

GORANI: But one of the things that's been said over the last few days when discussing the increase in knife crimes is that knife crimes and gang

violence, in general, goes hand in hand with school expulsions, with kids getting thrown out of school, they might not have the safety net of their

family at home. Maybe their parents are busy, they have to work hard, they're not home all the time. Do you agree that that's one of the issues?

Not so much?

KASANGA: Not so much. I mean, for me, when I was younger, why I carried a knife which was a trendy thing to do, a lot of these kids are not carrying

knives because they feel pressured to. Because they felt, well, James is doing it, Mike was doing it, I'm going to do it, too. So, it's about the

education of them show the consequences that happens with that. So, yes, school expulsion does affect how kids lead their lives, but at the same

time, is that you can't really blame it on that. There's so many things: it's lack of policing, lack of police presence, the home single-parent

households, where there's no father figure, so they look to the outside, and these gangs leaders take these kids on board because they're looking

for that love, and because there's not that love being shown to them at home, these gang leaders are taking these valuable kids.

GORANI: But why is it getting worse then? Because, I mean, presumably, all these factors were there 10 years ago, 20 years ago when there was gang

violence. Why is it increasing?

KASANGA: To be honest, I wouldn't say it's increasing, honestly. It's being highlighted a bit more.

GORANI: But the numbers are that there are more deaths associated with. Yes?

KASANGA: We can take (INAUDIBLE) there's more death but, at the same time, no one is putting any prevention to -- for these knives in terms of when

someone goes to go and buy a knife, who's actually prohibit -- end up from happening. There needs to be sort of -- they should be 21 to buy a knife.

It should be parents at home, you should know how many knives you got because the first knife any child gets is at home.

[14:40:14] GORANI: Yes.

KASANGA: You can't just go and buy a knife at the shop. So, the first knife he get is at home. So, when you say -- I mean, there is an increase,

but I wouldn't say it's all -- it's a shock. It's being happening steadily for a long time, and people should be aware of this.

GORANI: And for those of you who work with kids in these communities, to you, none of this is a shock. I think maybe to the wider population,

everybody is waking up to this, right? And they're like, oh my God, what's going on? But you've been aware of this for many years. You've lived it.

KASANGA: No. But yes, it's been going on -- I've lived it, I've seen friends being killed, I've seen friends spend the rest of their life in

prison. And this stuff has been going on for a long time, so it's not a short (INAUDIBLE) now, I'm trying to create preventive tools to stop these

kids from seeing that they've got no outlet.

GORANI: What would happen if instead of knives, they had guns?

KASANGA: I mean, in 2007, it was -- it wasn't a knife epidemic, it's a gun epidemic, so that seemed to stemmed. But I think because now is -- knives

are more accessible, so that's why that's an increase, but if it was guns, it'd probably even be worse, so there needs to be more activities for these

kids to do. And that's what we try to do, our football club is providing them with alternative measures.

GORANI: Yes, you have that football club, Hackney Wick. We did a whole story on it, and it's such a great initiative. Thanks so much, Bobby

Kasanga, for joining us in the studio.

Still to come, the self-proclaimed ISIS caliphate is all but finished, territorially, that is. Now, comes the task of sorting out those who

supported the terrorists. We're live from Eastern Syria, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GORANI: There's still no word on who may be responsible for the improvised explosive devices that were found at three London transit hubs yesterday.

The explosives turned up at or near three major transportation hubs, as we said, Heathrow Airport, the Waterloo Train Station, and London City

Airport. The devices were in small packages and counterterror investigators are assisting with the probe. Nic Robertson joins me now

with the latest. So, Irish Police are assisting and then is in this investigation, which is an interesting detail.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: It is. These packages had Irish stamps on them. So, it's very clear whoever was behind it seemed

to want to leave in everyone's minds a connection with Ireland. Is it dissident republicans in Northern Ireland, a sort of remnants of the IRA

back 20 or so years ago, or is it someone else trying to use that cover? Whatever it does, it certainly stirs up the tensions right now. The fact

that these were small devices tells you one of two things as well. It tells you that either that was the limit of their ability, or that was the

limit of their intent to send a signal.

So, I think at the moment, it's very --what seems to be clear is that somebody at this stage wants to make that link with Ireland. Otherwise,

perhaps they would have found another way to deliver those devices. After all, we understand they were in packages, they're small, they could be

transported relatively easy by hand from Ireland to --

[14:45:12] GORANI: Did they go through the mail or were they hand delivered?

ROBERTSON: They appear to have gone through the mail. They appear to have stamps on them.

GORANI: Yes.

ROBERTSON: So, you know, there is always the potential there for something deadly to go wrong. I mean, and this -- and this was -- the point that the

police made recently in Northern Ireland with the car bomb that went off, that was dissident Republicans and did claim it in January in the City of

Derry London, Derry in Northern Ireland. That actually innocent civilians were walking past that vehicle minutes before it exploded. So, there's

always that chance that whatever the intention, that somebody along the way gets harmed.

GORANI: Yes, if you play with -- yes, even if it's a small device, it can -- it can severely --

ROBERTSON: The bomb was opened and went off and burst into flames.

GORANI: Why are there more tensions nowadays, what's going on? Is it Brexit?

ROBERTSON: Brexit is part of it. Brexit is definitely part of it. I mean, there are concerns about, you know, as the political dispensation at

Northern Ireland, the unionists who want to remain part of Britain, see -- they see this constitutional question of what is the future of Northern

Ireland coming back on the table, and the nationalists in Northern Ireland are very concerned what was agreed in the Good Friday Agreement, the open

border between the North and South of Ireland could be at risk again. So, this whole issue of what ended the peace process -- what ended 30 years of

conflict in the peace process 20 years ago essentially is now back on the table. And that's where the tensions lie and that's what the concern is.

So, this is why Brexit is going to --

GORANI: Because of the risk -- of the risk of a hard border returning?

ROBERTSON: A hard border would undoubtedly mean everyone that has knowledge of this and is generally accepted that British intelligence

operations in Northern Ireland are really at a very high level at the moment. So, it shows the British government is concerned. Everyone is

concerned that if there is a hard Brexit or the relationship between North and the South over customs or whatever, turns into a hard border. That

those hard border posts would be attacked by dissident republicans. It would be a rallying call for this very, very small core group of people who

have some capability and some following.

Were they behind these small devices that were sent to London? That's unclear, but the history of the IRA in Northern Ireland is when they want

to send a message to the British government, they attack the mainland. When the peace talks were going off the rails in the 90s, they blew up, had

a huge explosion in Canary Wharf, huge damage in a very expensive commercial district. It got the British government's attention.

GORANI: Nic Robertson, thanks very much. You just came back from where at this time?

ROBERTSON: Islamabad.

GORANI: OK. And you're headed to?

ROBERTSON: Belfast.

GORANI: OK. Bon voyage.

ROBERTSON: Merci.

GORANI: The exodus is underway in Eastern Syria, as thousands of people stream out of the last bit of territory held by ISIS. Many have just

arrived in an already overwhelmed camp to the north. They include foreign nationals who joined the terrorist's cause but now want to return home,

even with their extremist ideals intact. Ben Wedeman joins us now from Eastern Syria where this is all unfolding. And, Ben, you've had an

opportunity to speak to the wife, I understand, of one of the people implicated in attacks in Paris. What did she tell you?

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, you'll see in this report, but I mean I think I should tell you that within the last 72

hours, Hala, somewhere between 9 and 10,000 people have left that tiny enclave still controlled by ISIS. And it's important to underscore that

they are not fleeing, they haven't been evacuated, they are essentially surrendering to the Syrian Democratic Forces because staying inside that

camp means certain death.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

WEDEMAN: The victor leads the vanquished. Boys and men of the so-called Islamic State now in the hands of their enemies. Tuesday, thousands of

men, women, and children were trucked out of ISIS's doomed domain. The numbers fleeing the sinking state, well over 6,000 in the past two days,

have taken the U.S.-backed Syrian Democratic Forces by surprise.

Among them, Dorothy Maquere, the wife of Jean-Michel Clain, linked to the November 2015 terror attacks in Paris that killed 130 people. Her husband

just composed religious songs, she claims. She told us an airstrike killed him Sunday while two weeks ago a drone killed Jean-Michel's brother Fabian,

who claimed responsibility for the 2015 Paris attacks in an audiotape. She says three of her children have been killed in the fighting.

[14:50:00] "No, I don't want to return to France," she tells me, "because the French state used its arms to kill my children and my husband, and I

know if I return, I'll be put in prison."

Tens of thousands of foreign nationals, including many from Western Europe, flocked to Syria and Iraq when ISIS was at its height. Now, many of their

countries don't want them back. Senna, a Finnish convert to Islam, came to Syria four years ago with her husband, a Moroccan plumber, she said. Life

was good in the beginning, she recalls. War, not ISIS, ruined that life, Senna tells me. With the war almost over, and this land in ruins, now she

wants to go home.

You want to go back?

SENNA, WIFE OF ISIS: Yes, I want to go back to Finland now, yes, definitely, definitely, definitely.

WEDEMAN: By all accounts, the battle has left many civilians dead.

"I'm lost," says this Belgian woman who declined to give her name. "For now, I can't think of anything else. I'm traumatized. Back there in the

camp, it was a massacre. There are dead everywhere."

No one is more traumatized by this catastrophe than the children who grew up in the mad house of the state that called itself Islamic. Brain washed

and caught in a war, not of their choosing. The lucky ones may return to their countries far, far away. The rest doomed to a grim life in

overcrowded internment camps.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WEDEMAN: And what we saw also today was at a makeshift field hospital, children who've been severely wounded in this intense bombardment of that

small encampment being treated. These are children who had no choice in the matter when it comes to where they ended up in their early lives.

Hala?

GORANI: Yes, and they had the misfortune of being born to these particular parents, and it's not their fault. I was reading reports that there were

sort of informal religious police types in these internment camps that go around tents and force people to pray five times a day. Have you observed

any of that? Because it seems like this ideology, as we've been saying, regardless of how much territory they lose, ISIS, that they'll continue to

try to propagate it, to spread it, to impose it on people.

WEDEMAN: Well, we haven't actually been to any of those camps yet, but that is our understanding, that they have in a sense, reestablished the

social order they lived in under the so-called Islamic State in these internment camps which are becoming increasingly crowded as a result of

this flood of people, and leaving that area around Baghuz, but I mean, we saw just today, Scott McWhinnie, our cameraman, had women waving shoes in

his face and shouting allahu akbar and various other things that would indicate that as far they're concerned, they may have left their so-called

state behind, but the ideas behind it are going with them. Hala?

GORANI: It sure sounds like it, unfortunately. Ben Wedeman, thanks very much. Live in Eastern Syria.

Still ahead, several people were hurt when a dream cruise turned into a nightmare. Find out what happened, next.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:55:22] GORANI: Imagine you're on a cruise ship sailing the tranquil waters in blissful luxury, when without any warning, people and furniture

start flying through the air. Well, imagine no more, Alison Kosik has the true story of the cruise ship nightmare.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ALISON KOSIK, CNN BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: It began as a typical night on a Norwegian cruise line ship. Suddenly turning into chaos.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Wow, we all just went flying down.

KOSIK: A 115-mile an hour gust of wind slamming into the vessel.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It feels like the boat is tipping.

KOSIK: Tilting the 164-ton ship nearly 40 degrees, according to some passengers.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My son got up and he looked out the window and he could see water at that port window.

KOSIK: Bottles smashing, glass breaking, tables piling up, chairs sliding across the floor.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was at the bar. I was sliding down, chairs were flying.

KOSIK: The confusion causing panic among the 6,000 passengers and crew on board. Passenger Aaron Black was at this piano bar when everything started

shaking.

AARON BLACK, CRUISE SHIP PASSENGER: I've been on a lot of cruises. This just never happens.

KOSIK: Behind him, people struggling to keep their footing.

BLACK: It was a very surreal escalation to, oh, this is normal to -- this is very unusual and probably shouldn't be happening.

KOSIK: Medical staff tending to several passengers and crew members who were injured.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: People were down, people were crying. Yes, it was pretty traumatic experience.

KOSIK: Some passengers feared the ship would capsize.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When the boat rocked, we were the side that was closest to the water. It just wasn't a good situation.

KOSIK: Others grateful they narrowly escaped disaster.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank God we got out of here in time, because that was absolutely insane.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GORANI: Alison Kosik there with that nightmare cruise. And finally, they say lightning never strikes twice, but tell that to people in Southern

California. That's where lightning hit more than 2,000 times in a single night. The National Weather Service says a particularly strong batch of

thunderstorms was responsible, and it's not the first time. There's been a very unusual weather like this there this year. Last month, there was snow

on areas along California's coast line, including Malibu.

Thanks for watching. I'm Hala Gorani. Stay with CNN. "QUEST MEANS BUSINESS" is next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

END