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Airlines Ground Boeing 737 Max 8 Planes After Ethiopia Crash; Trump to Demand $8.6 Billion for Border Wall in 2020 Budget; 2020 Dem Candidates Descend on South by Southwest; Trump Polls in Iowa Show Him Trouncing GOP Competitor; Schiff: 'Mistake' If Trump Doesn't Testify Under Oath for Mueller. Aired 6-6:30a ET

Aired March 11, 2019 - 06:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I saw a message that said an Ethiopian Airlines airplane has crashed. I found out that nearly everybody had passed away.

[05:59:12] UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's a real sense of shock. The feeling of tragedy is palpable.

RICHARD QUEST, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: I can't think of another case where a brand-new aircraft had two major incidents with multiple fatalities, because it is highly unusual.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have a crisis down there. The president has made that case very effectively.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Doubling down is dangerous. This could shut the government again.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These are budget requests. It's his way of saying, "I'm really doing this."

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: This is NEW DAY with Alisyn Camerota and John Berman.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: All right. Welcome to our viewers in the United States and all around the world. This is NEW DAY. It's Monday, March 11, 6 a.m. here in New York. And we do begin with breaking news.

Serious new air safety concerns this morning. For the second time in five months, a brand-new plane crashes just after takeoff in near perfect weather, and it's the exact same type of aircraft.

This morning, Boeing is facing intense scrutiny as airlines around the world are grounding the company's 737 Max 8 aircraft. On Sunday, an Ethiopians Airline jet crashed minutes into flight, killing all 157 people on board, including eight Americans.

Now, in October, a crash of the same type of new plane killed 189 people in Indonesia.

So pressure is growing on U.S. carriers to decide whether to ground this type of Boeing jet. This is Boeing's best-selling passenger jet with hundreds already in service and thousands more on order.

Overnight, we learned that Boeing is postponing the launch of its huge now triple-7 X jetliner, who was scheduled to debut this week as it deals with this disaster. CNN is the only network live at the crash site in Ethiopia.

David McKenzie joins us now with the latest.

What's happening there, David?

DAVID MCKENZIE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: John and Alisyn, good morning.

The debris field stretches for a long way to that direction. And right behind me, you see those diggers digging up this terrible job. The airline plowed into this field behind me. It's about an area of two basketball courts.

Now, what's happening now is Red Cross and other officials are going through the terrible task of recovery. Three things going on. They are taking the parts of the plane that they find, that they are digging from that space, and they're placing it in one area. You see the debris torn apart because of the impact of this plane into the ground.

They are tragically taking the belongings that they find of people, placing them gingerly in another area. I've seen one group of Red Cross workers piece together an I.D. of someone who is on this plane. And then finally they are taking the bodies, or what's left of the passengers, taking them to try and I.D. them.

It's an extraordinary scene. Just about an hour and a half's drive from the capital, this airline just a few minutes after takeoff, the senior pilot, more than 8,000 hours of air time, said he was in trouble, tried to turn back to Bole International.

A witness we spoke to hear on the scene said he saw the plane tilting and smoking and then slamming into the hillside where I'm standing. Now serious questions being asked about how this tragedy could have happened. All 157 people on board killed in this brand-new aircraft -- John, Alisyn.

BERMAN: David, it is remarkable to see the work going on behind you and this site. Grim work. So important, though, for the families. So important for the investigation, as well. What has Boeing said about the crash?

MCKENZIE: Well, John, they put out a statement. We asked them about the fact that this is yet another new 737 Max -- 8 Max that has gone down in just six months. No response on that.

But they did put out a statement, wishing condolences for the families. Also saying that they will take investigators here to Ethiopia to help. Right now, there are NTSB safety officials en route to Ethiopia. There are eight Americans, were eight Americans on board this flight. It's a very popular route that many of us working in Africa have taken. This early morning commuter flight, a regional flight from Addis Ababa to Nairobi. One of the most respected airlines in the continent, Ethiopian Airlines, with a very new fleet. They have grounded their Boeing 737 8-Max flights; and China, as well, which has many, many of these airlines, has announced (AUDIO GAP) -- at this point because of these questions -- John.

CAMEROTA: David McKenzie, thank you very much for being at the scene for us.

BERMAN: All right. Joining us now is Mary Schiavo. She is the former inspector general at the U.S. Department of Transportation and a CNN transportation analyst.

Mary, thank you so much for being with us. When we got this news, a 737 Max 8, the exact same type of aircraft, in very similar circumstances to the crash that took place five months ago, just after takeoff. Near-perfect weather. The concerns that jump out to you?

MARY SCHIAVO, CNN TRANSPORTATION ANALYST: Absolutely, there are concerns, and the alarms should be and are going off all through the aviation industry. Because when you investigate a plane crash, you look, you draw on your knowledge. What has happened recently? And you guard against what's called investigation bias, looking at the next crash and assuming this crash is exactly like that one. But there are too many similarities to -- you know, to say that isn't possible.

Now, some clues don't fit. For example, the eyewitness report that we just heard, there was smoke emanating from the plane before it crashed. That wouldn't happen if you have a problem with your instrumentation in the cockpit that you have a bad air speed indicator, giving you faulty air speed readings or that you have what's called an angle of attack variation, meaning that your instruments aren't telling you how the plane is positioned in the air, nose up, nose down, et cetera.

[06:05:18] That wouldn't cause smoke to emanate from the plane. But otherwise, very similar. Air speeds, phase of flight, just -- and a report from the pilot that they had mechanical problems.

So some five months ago after the first crash, Boeing actually sent out an emergency bulletin, which is very rare, basically saying that pilots, pilots why fly these new 737 Max 8 aircrafts need to learn how to use, and in some cases, override the automatic controls that are part of this new system. Explain the significance there.

SCHIAVO: What was highly significant, because Boeing took that action, and then the Federal Aviation Administration and other aviation administrations around the world followed up with what's called an airworthiness directive, and that gives mandatory orders to people operating this plane that they have to do something. They have to fix something. But in this case, it was retraining. What they did is they added a

black box warning in the flight manual about how to detect that you're having this problem with this system that pushes the nose down without the pilot's input. And know what the response was supposed to be. You were supposed to treat it like a system called a runaway trim.

And so those new warnings went into the manual, and each pilot that flies the plane was supposed to have new training on what to do.

But, you can only do so much when you're on the takeoff phase of the flight, because you're only at a couple thousand feet of altitude. And as anyone who flies knows, it's altitude that gives you time. They had no time.

BERMAN: And, again, it will be a question, as part of this investigation. Do the pilots around the world know how to fly this new plane?

Along those lines, Mary, China has already grounded overnight, we learned, all these 737 Max 8 aircrafts. Is this something that U.S. domestic carriers, in your mind, should do? American, Southwest, United all fly this new aircraft.

SCHIAVO: Absolutely. Everybody should. They're going to have the answers within the week.

These black boxes are the most advanced black boxes on a plane. And if ACARS was sending messages, you know, the automated message system from the plane, they probably already have a pretty good idea. But they'll have the answer within a week.

So grounding these planes for the week until people can -- can know what's going on and feel more confident, frankly, I think Boeing should take the lead; and Boeing should do it.

BERMAN: Mary Schiavo, thank you so much for being with us. I appreciate it.

SCHIAVO: Thank you.

CAMEROTA: All right, John, now to a new battle brewing here in the United States.

President Trump will ask Congress today for an additional $8.6 billion for his proposed wall along the Mexican border, setting up a new budget battle with Democrats. Now this amount is much more than the president's initial ask last year, which Congress rejected.

CNN's Joe Johns is live at the White House with more. Good morning, Joe.

JOE JOHNS, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Alisyn.

Now, this is just a blueprint. It's likely dead on arrival once it reaches once it reaches Capitol Hill, especially in a divided government, which is what we've got. What you said is right: $8.6 billion request for the president's

border wall, even though he just got outmaneuvered by Nancy Pelosi and the House of Representatives over the very same issue, leading to the longest shutdown in American history for the government.

It's pretty clear the president is also seeking deep across the board cuts in domestic spending, virtually everything but the Defense Department. The president's economic adviser, Larry Kudlow, speaking over the weekend, saying the wall is still a top priority for the president.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRIS WALLACE, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: So there's going to be another budget fight over the wall?

LARRY KUDLOW, DONALD TRUMP'S ECONOMIC ADVISOR: Well, I suppose there will be. I would just say that the whole issue of the wall, border security is of paramount importance. We have a crisis down there. I think the president has made that case very effectively. It's a crisis of economics. It's a crisis of crime and drugs. It's a crisis of humanity.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JOHNS: So if you're really wondering where this is going, Democratic leaders on Capitol Hill Chuck Schumer and Nancy Pelosi did put out a statement saying they wished the president had learned his lesson during the shutdown.

Nonetheless, President Trump continuing once again to let his supporters on the right know that he's fighting for that biggest single thing he argued for during the last election, his border wall.

CAMEROTA: All right, Joe, thank you very much. Let's bring in CNN senior political analyst John Avlon to talk about this.

John, I just want to put up on the screen again what the president is asking for: $8.6 billion request for the wall, $5 billion from Customs and Border Protection, 3.6 billion from the military construction funds.

[06:10:03] I feel like we've been down this road already, and Congress already rejected this. What's happening here?

JOHN AVLON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: President Trump continues to be in denial about Democrats controlling the House of Representatives. It's setting up a deja-vu all over again, fight.

But at least it's being done the right way, as opposed to an emergency declaration. This is what happens in Washington. The president proposes a budget. It's a wish list. It's notional. But this is going squarely at Democratic priorities after ballooning the deficit and debt. It proposes steep cuts to domestic discretionary spending, while boosting the military and, of course, the fight for the wall. This is a preview of coming attractions, and it's going to look a lot like last fall.

CAMEROTA: But this doesn't take away the emergency declaration. He's already doing this with the emergency declaration. Why are we going through this exercise?

AVLON: I think this is -- you know, belt and suspenders. This is -- he's working with a net. He doesn't know how the court challenge to the emergency declaration may go, and he's signaling that this remains a priority for his presidency.

It is a message to the base as much as anything else, because the Kentucky Democrat who runs the House Budget Committee said, "Look, this is DOA." This is -- you know, Chuck Schumer Heismaned the proposal entirely right out of the gate. That fight's going to happen.

CAMEROTA: As you know, as you just said, it's -- the deficit and the debt have ballooned. And here is President Trump's acting budget chief, Russell Vought. Here's what he says about this: "This level of borrowing is unsustainable and is one of the largest threats to our nation's economic future." He is going off-script.

AVLON: Oh, no. I mean, this is apparently the new script, but it only works if you have complete amnesia about what this administration has done. I mean, you know, Mr. Vought should call his office, because the deficit and the debt have ballooned under this president, because there has been unsustainable borrowing. It's a little bit late to try to fix it or at least claim moral authority in doing so.

CAMEROTA: But this is guy. So is he criticizing the president or is he blaming somebody else?

AVLON: He's pretending that none of us will actually remember what's happened the last two years, and they can claim the mantle of fiscal responsibility after entirely blowing it up at the outset of the administration.

CAMEROTA: John, thank you for explaining the madness -- John.

BERMAN: All right. One of the biggest moments in the 2020 contest yet, dateline Austin, Texas, where candidate after candidate streamed through the South by Southwest Festival. Three of them took part in separate CNN town halls last night.

Our Jeff Zeleny is live in Austin with the latest -- Jeff.

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hey, John. Good morning.

There were more than a dozen potential presidential candidates here in Austin over the weekend, talking about one unified goal of how they want to make President Trump a one-term president.

There was no agreement on how to get there, if they should tyke a middle lane or a left lane. There was also a question mark hanging over all of this. Will will another Texas Democrat jump in the race this week? (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ZELENY (voice-over): A whirlwind Texas weekend on the campaign trail with Democratic presidential hopefuls hitting the famous stage of Austin city lights. South Bend Mayor Pete Buttigieg, 37, is the youngest candidate in the race, calling for generational change.

PETE BUTTIGIEG (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It's an audacious thing for anybody to think they belong in that office, so when you go in there, you have to recognize just how much you don't know, no matter how old you are.

ZELENY: Buttigieg taking aim at Vice President Mike Pence, who he used to work with directly when Pence was governor of Indiana.

BUTTIGIEG: How could he allow himself to become the cheerleader of the porn star presidency? Is it that he -- is it that he stopped believing in scripture when he started believing in Donald Trump? I don't know. I don't know.

ZELENY: At back-to-back CNN town halls, former Maryland Congressman John Delaney issuing a warning to Democrats, saying President Trump could be reelected if the party veers left.

JOHN DELANEY (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I do worry that, if we embrace socialism in his pure form, right, that that's a mistake. Right?

ZELENY: Hawaii Congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard, an Iraq veteran, focusing on foreign policy.

REP. TULSI GABBARD (D-HI), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It is my duty and my responsibility to exercise skepticism anytime anyone tries send our service members into harm's way or use our military to go in and start a new war.

ZELENY: Yet, they were hardly the only game in town, with senators Elizabeth Warren and Amy Klobuchar and other candidates appearing at the annual South by Southwest festival. Special Counsel Robert Mueller's investigation a subject of considerable conversation.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I feel like Mueller is like this guy who keeps taking you to a weekend away; and you think he's going to propose every weekend. And then -- and it's like is this guy ever --

SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: That said, you should remember, he has produced 34 indictments and guilty pleas already.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But based on what you know.

WARREN: I don't know about you, but I never had a boyfriend that good.

ZELENY: But the biggest buzz surrounded a Texas Democrat not yet in the race, Beto O'Rourke appearing for the unveiling of a documentary about his Senate race that made him a star of the party, despite losing to Ted Cruz. He's still teasing a presidential candidacy but not revealing his timing.

BETO O'ROURKE (D), FORMER CONGRESSMAN, TEXAS: We got to be a part of -- of this amazing thing in Texas over the last two years, and it continues. And we are so excited about what you're doing, Rhonda, what you are doing, what so many other people are doing. And we just want to continue to be a part of it.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZELENY: So with those words, Democrats here are hanging on them. He said, "We want to continue to be a part of that."

So there is an assumption that Beto O'Rourke is going to jump into this presidential contest, potentially, as early as this week. All eyes will be on him in El Paso.

But John, I was speaking to a couple of Democrats who talked with him here over the weekend. They say it looks like he is going to jump in, but of course, until he actually says those words, it will be an open question. But a lot of buzz here, but a lot of candidates, many of them with a lot of work to do -- John.

BERMAN: All right. Jeff Zeleny in Austin, we're going to come back to you in a little bit. So stand by, Jeff.

We have some breaking news in the 2020 race. A new CNN poll shows President Trump's standing among Iowa Republican voters.

Senior politics and writer/analyst Harry Enten joins us now. Harry, the headline here is the president is doing pretty well in Iowa with kind of one tiny little warning sign.

HARRY ENTEN, CNN SENIOR POLITICS AND WRITER/ANALYST: Yes. So we got some popping fresh numbers for you here. And these are just the favorable ratings. Donald Trump versus Bill Welsh, who's obviously formed an exploratory committee. We see Donald Trump with an 82 percent favorable rating, 15 percent unfavorable rating. That's far better than his possible challenger, Bill Weld, who's only at a 4 percent favorable rating.

Now I'll point out, you know, you mentioned the one sort of, maybe this is not a great number.

BERMAN: Because this a high number: 40 percent of Iowa Republicans say they want to see someone challenge the president.

ENTEN: Yes, but I will point out that Bill Clinton at that point, it was a 67 percent back in 1995, and obviously, he won on -- easily won that primary.

And I'm a little suspect of this number if for no other reason than look at this. Most Republicans would, in fact, vote for Trump when you were asked, would you would definitely reelect? Sixty-seven percent of Republicans said yes. That is the same exact number in December, so it's not like his numbers are going to get worse.

Maybe Iowa folks, Iowa Republicans just want a choice, but they're going to choose the president.

ENTEN: Exactly right. You know, I might like Popeyes, you know, I might also want KFC to be there, but I'm definitely voting for Popeyes.

BERMAN: All right. Let's talk about the Democratic poll numbers we saw over the weekend also, because something similar in other places. Joe Biden and Bernie Sanders running one and two.

ENTEN: Yes, running one and two. These two guys running one and two. That's basically the same as we saw in December. The total percentage between them, 52 now, 51 then.

But obviously, Bernie Sanders is a little bit higher. We haven't really seen the same jump that Kamala Harris has got in the other early states. But Beto O'Rourke, look at that. We were just talking about him. His numbers dropped by six percentage points between December and now. Has his time passed? Not really quite sure.

BERMAN: He hasn't jumped in. Two things have happened. Beto hasn't jumped into the race. So his numbers have dropped a little bit. Bernie Sanders has, so his numbers have gone up.

ENTEN: Exactly right. His numbers could go up, and one thing that I'll really point out here is a lot of this may have to do with name recognition. I put this. This is the percentage of Iowa Democrats, likely caucus goers who could form an opinion of the candidates versus their first choice on the ballot. Look at this. There's a very clear correlation. When more Iowans are able to form an opinion of these different Democratic candidates, their first choices also go up.

BERMAN: You could look at this both ways. One, it's name I.D. that's fueling this. The other is, well, people know Joe Biden and Bernie Sanders enough to know whether they like them.

ENTEN: That's exactly right. And their favorable ratings, which we'll get to in another point. You know, it's still very, very high. This is the one last point that I'll make. It is still very, very early. Since 1980, the polling leader at this point has only won 43 percent of the time. So things can definitely shift.

BERMAN: Although if you entered a football season or baseball season with 40 --

ENTEN: Yes.

BERMAN: -- you would be psyched, if your team had a 43 percent chance to win.

ENTEN: He's got a shot. Certainly, this polling isn't meaningless, but there's still a long way to go.

BERMAN: Harry Enten, thank you very, very much. ENTEN: Shalom, my friend.

BERMAN: Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: All right, John.

Up next, will Robert Mueller subpoena President Trump before he wraps up his Russia investigation? We discuss next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[06:22:28] BERMAN: All right. As we wait word that Robert Mueller has wrapped up his Russia investigation, House Intelligence Committee chair Adam Schiff says he wants the special counsel to get President Trump to testify under oath.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. ADAM SCHIFF (D-CA), CHAIRMAN, INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE: Yes, I think it say mistake; and I've said all along that I don't think Bob Mueller should rely on written answers.

I think the constraint that Bob Mueller is operating under is he had an acting attorney general who was appointed because he would be hostile to a subpoena on the president; and now he has a permanent attorney general who was chosen for the same hostility to his investigation, who would likely oppose that step.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: All right. With us now, Joe Lockhart, former Clinton White House press secretary; Carrie Cordero, former counsel to the U.S. assistant attorney general; and John Avlon, CNN senior political analyst.

Joe, first of all, I think the right way to characterize what Adam Schiff was doing there was regret, not sort of saying that Robert Mueller still should get a subpoena for the president but regret that he didn't force or try to force the president to testify. There's a legal discussion there, which we can have with Carrie.

But am I hearing some politics there that, you know, Democrats now are feeling as if they're not getting everything they want to from the Mueller report?

JOE LOCKHART, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I don't know. I mean, I think he -- he makes a strong case for why the president should have gone under oath and faced questions.

I mean, I have some experience with this. President Clinton was -- sat before the grand jury, answered questions. As I've said before, I believed the issues involved here, the counterintelligence issues are much more serious than the issues surrounding President Clinton.

But, you know, there is some politics and game playing going on around Mueller. I think Democrats are starting to try to lower expectations for it.

The problem is, I think Republicans are going out of their way to raise expectations that there's nothing there. My guess is there's going to be something there. He wouldn't be still working at this. It may not be the smoking gun that everybody on the left was hoping for, but the president's not going to get a clean bill of health out of this.

And as you know in Washington, everything's about the expectations rather than the news itself.

CAMEROTA: Carrie, we've already been down this road in terms of speculating about what would have happened if Robert Mueller had subpoenaed the president. Wouldn't they have rejected that? Could they have rejected it?

[06:25:07] And weren't the written answers -- I mean, are they the equivalent of being under oath? They have to be truthful, right, or he would get in trouble?

CARRIE CORDERO, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Right. So the written answers are supposed to be truthful. And they're held to the same standard. If the prosecutors came up with evidence, or if they have evidence that contradicts those written answers that were provided for them, then that potentially exposes the president further to accusations of providing false statements to investigators.

On the subpoena, the special counsel certainly could have used a subpoena in order to compel the president. It certainly would have been litigated. The White House would have litigated it. And then that would have been resolved through the courts; and either the president would have been compelled to appear, which is more likely, I think, under a subpoena, or not.

So the special counsel either decided that they didn't need it, because they have enough evidence under the obstruction investigation, or they determined that it wasn't worthwhile in pursuing because of the delay or the other sort of political issues that would get involved in it.

But the one piece in Chairman Schiff's comments that definitely is political and not legal is the argument that the special counsel would have been influenced by the attorney general, because there was plenty of time when Rod Rosenstein, the former -- the deputy attorney general, was the acting attorney general for this investigation. And there's no reason to think that he would not have allowed that investigative step to go forward.

BERMAN: Sure. Just to be clear, one point to pick up on, it doesn't preclude the possibility that Robert Mueller is still pursuing some kind of obstruction finding or obstruction roadmap here, just because they didn't sit the president down before a grand jury?

CORDERO: No, I don't think it does at all. He can conduct his investigation, and they'll develop the information that they have. And they have the written answers from the president. And so just the absence of forcing the president to appear doesn't

necessarily lead to the conclusion that there's no obstruction investigation going on.

AVLON: No, but let's also not forget. One of the many reasons the president didn't submit to questioning is that his lawyers didn't trust him.

BERMAN: They thought he was going to lie.

AVLON: That's right. That can't be said enough. So they went via the lawyers.

And it does set up a difficult standard. Part of what we're dealing with here is that everybody, Republicans included, admit effectively, that the president lies all the time.

The difference is, is no, it's not illegal to lie to the American people or lie on TV. It is, however, a different matter when you're dealing with a special counsel.

So he's got that -- the veneer, the lens of the lawyers that he's got to go through. But we'll see, when the report is released, whether or not he crossed that line. Because the lawyers don't know everything that the Mueller investigation's got.

But the real danger is, I think, Democrats cheerleading this and setting expectations at an unrealistic level. Let's see where the facts bring us, folks.

LOCKHART: I mean, two other points. One is that President Clinton did not litigate this. He accepted the subpoena. And his argument at the time, and his lawyer's argument at his time, was if he litigated this and lost, the power of the presidency would be weakened. So we can't forget that.

The second is the Southern District of New York may have a second shot at this. And it's very hard to see, given the things that they're looking at, how they could not bring the president in. It may not happen while he's still president, but I think -- I think he will spend some time in front of a grand jury.

CAMEROTA: OK. Now to a spat, John, between Ann Coulter and President Trump.

So Ann Coulter has kind of embodies the base that wants the border wall. She has never wavered on this. She has been unequivocal that that's what she believes. She has a book, I guess, out or coming out called "Adios, America" --

AVLON: Of course.

CAMEROTA: -- about the border wall.

And Donald Trump does not take kindly to this. He has just tweeted. "Wacky nutjob Ann Coulter, who still hasn't figured out that, despite all odds and an entire Democratic Party of Far Left Radicals against me (not to mention certain Republicans who are sadly unwilling to fight) I am winning on the Border. Major sections of the Wall are being built" -- dot, dot, dot -- "and renovated." There's too many -- there's too many parentheticals in here to go on.

So he -- she has gotten under his skin, because she speaks for the base that really -- that voted for this and really wants this. And he's trying to say that he's won on this.

AVLON: Well, sure. This is Trump's reality distortion field. And his very real talent for nicknames, Wacky Nutjob Coulter, going after her -- you know, Ann Coulter, who's been a voice of the base. I'm not sure she embodies anything other than herself.

BERMAN: Ann Coulter.

AVLON: Ann Coulter. Which she does quite well. She's not actually the prime minister of the conservative coalition in Congress, though she plays that role on TV sometimes.

But it's fascinating to see the smackdown. It's fascinating to see the divide. And Donald Trump basically saying, "Don't listen to the conservagentsia. Listen to me. Don't believe what you're seeing and what you're reading. Pay attention to me."

BERMAN: Is Ann Coulter the enemy for Donald Trump to have? I could see some political utility in it for him.