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New Day

Carlson Defiant as Outrage Grows; U.S. Pulls Embassy Personnel from Venezuela; Baseball's Burr and Hamilton Duel. Aired 8:30-9a ET

Aired March 12, 2019 - 08:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:30:03] ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Fox New House Tucker Carlson is painting himself as sort of the -- I guess victim of an outrage machine, or a mob. The progressive group Media Matters has released this audio of Tucker Carlson making offensive comments on a shock jock radio show between the years of 2006 and 2011. Media Matters admits their aim is to pressure advertisers to leave Fox and Carlson claims though that the network, Fox, has his back.

So joining us now to discuss all of this is Brian Stelter, CNN chief media correspondent and anchor of "Reliable Sources," and Mary Katharine Ham, CNN political commentator and conservative blogger.

So, what's happening, Brian, over at Fox? First Jeanine Pirro said stuff -- she said it on her show, OK.

BRIAN STELTER, CNN CHIEF MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: Right.

CAMEROTA: So she said it currently on her show.

STELTER: Yes.

CAMEROTA: Fox put out a statement saying that they didn't approve of her anti-Muslim remarks. Now this is older stuff from ten years ago roughly that Tucker said on a radio show. No word yet from Fox.

STELTER: Yes.

CAMEROTA: And Tucker has come out and basically said that he's not going to, I guess, apologize or clarify.

STELTER: Yes. He says that he's being challenged by a mob. He says the left wants to control what you think. This is an example of that. They're trying to take him down but he won't be cowed. That's his message, which, of course, really resonates with the Fox audience. A lot of what Fox says in primetime is resentment television, making you resent liberals and others who are trying to hurt you. That's the message from Fox. So he's playing right into that saying he's the victim.

But Media Matters says this ten-year-old audio is important because he continues to behave this way today, act in ways that are misogynistic, act in ways that are racist. That's the view from the left, from Media Matters, which has been promoting this audio. And they're doing it timed to an advertiser event Fox is having on Wednesday. So that's the intent here.

I think all of this matters, again, it's about decency and standards. It's about the corrosive, ugly, nasty behavior that sometimes happens on cable news or off cable news involving some of these hosts. It's about the ongoing struggle for the soul of the conservative movement. And Tucker Carlson and Jeanine Pirro, they are two of the faces of that movement.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Let me -- let me just play a little bit more of some of the sound that Media Matters released. This is Tucker Carlson talking about Iraq in 2006.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TUCKER CARLSON, FOX NEWS: Iraq is a crappy place filled with a bunch of, you know --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

CARLSON: Semi-literate, primitive monkeys.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Keep bearing -- keep --

CARLSON: I just have zero sympathy for them or their culture. A culture where people just don't use toilet paper or forks.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: So, Mary Katharine, what are we supposed to do with all this in your mind? This was from 2006. There's 2010 --

CAMEROTA: And 2008.

BERMAN: And 2008. There's 2010 sound of him talking about Elena Kagan's appearance and saying that, you know -- really making fun of women's appearances there.

What does one do with this now? Is Tucker Carlson really the victim here?

MARY KATHARINE HAM, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Look, I do think he's right when he says that if he apologizes nothing ends and nobody's interested in his apology. I think that's true. I think that's how outrage mobs operate.

If you're looking for me to say that Tucker Carlson said bad things on the radio, that is very true. I would apologize for them. I don't -- I have not said those bad things, although I know I have some fans down in the Media Matters basement have been watching me for 15 years as well. Shout-out, guys.

But, look, I think there is a difference between the Pirro thing, which is obvious bigotry, contemporaneous, on her network and Tucker's, which is on the radio ten years ago. And I wrote an entire book about how I don't like coming for people's heads and people's jobs because they said things that people don't like. And I actually believe what I wrote.

And I do think that there's another thing that's corrosive in addition to people saying mean things, and it is the impulse to take people down and to take people's jobs for saying, you know, errant FaceBook posts, which is something that happens to real people, not just public figures. And so I think -- I think -- I like that Tucker Carlson is sort of Joan Rivers-ing this thing. When people came to Joan Rivers and said, your joke was bad and it made me feel bad, she goes, I don't care. Because she knew that the next cycle was the apology cycle and then the next cycle was the, we don't accept your apology cycle.

So, look, if it wasn't a fireable offense for MSNBC ten years ago, it ain't a fireable offense now.

BERMAN: Can I just say, though, if you're a viewer of Tucker Carlson, and, you know, take the things he said about women where he called women primitive, I think, and he said the things he said about Elena Kagan, how do you know -- I mean are -- was it just a performance on radio? Distinguish between on the radio and on TV is interesting because how do you know whether he still thinks that?

HAM: Yes, I think you just take it under advisement. Do I like this guy and do I want to watch his show? Which is what Tucker said. I -- I'm on show five nights a week. Watch me. If you don't agree with me, you can come on and argue with me.

But I do think that this like tendency to try to fire people all the time is an effort to short-circuit am actual conversation.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

HAM: Which we're not all that good at having to begin with, but it makes things worse.

CAMEROTA: I think that you make a really good point. And we -- anybody's allowed to think whatever they want, of course. And we shouldn't be policing what people think.

[08:35:07] I think where it gets complicated is that when you don't -- when you choose not to apologize and you choose not to clarify, then we can assume that is what you think. So that is what you think because you haven't clarified that it's not what you think and those are your words and in some ways being on radio, as we all know, makes you more unplugged. That's actually the more real you than being on TV, OK. On TV we wear all of this. On the radio we just, blah, say whatever it is we think, OK.

And so that's -- so let's just accept then that if you're not going to clarify, that is what you think. So, that's all. Just, you know, everybody go in with eyes wide open that these comments are --we're expressing a real -- a real feeling.

STELTER: And I think Media Matters is not actually calling for his firing. They may want that to happen eventually. What they're doing is they're saying, we just want the advertisers to know about this and then the advertisers get to decide whether support his show or not.

And that is an interesting strategy. We can love that. We can hate that. But that's an interesting strategy. Here is everything he's said, you know, this liberal group says we think he's anti-women, anti-minorities, anti-Muslims. You all decide what to do.

And, by the way, he's seen very few brand advertisers willing to support him right now. So that does tell us something about the marketplace of ideas in this country that there are a lot of big advertisers who do not want to be anywhere near Tucker Carlson.

CAMEROTA: But, wait a minute, are they pulling support from his show?

STELTER: They have been in a -- in a kind of gradual way for a while after other controversies,. You know, anti-immigrant stuff that Carlson said in the past. Advertisers started to try to back away and move their ads to other hours. We're seeing even more of that now in the midst of this controversy.

Now, it could be temporary. It might not last. But I certainly think we have seen a number of big advertisers -- you know, the prestige brands that you want to be associated with your program -- say they don't want to be near his show. So there is some impact.

And, again, that might be a bad thing. That might be a good thing. But that's ultimately in the advertiser's hands.

BERMAN: Yes, and, look -- and I read Mary Katharine's book, which is terrific, and you really lay out a long argument now about what's wrong with a lot of the finger pointing that goes on in our society.

I do wonder though about saying -- about Tucker's claim -- Tucker Carlson's claim that he really is the victim here, when he is the one who said these things. He said them. He just said them.

HAM: Yes. I mean that -- like -- it's like Ilhan Omar, too, like her supporters have told me like quoting her is some sort of victimization of her. No, quoting you is quoting you.

BERMAN: Right.

HAM: But you can stand up for yourself. And I do think there's a -- there's a difference between contemporaneous and old.

STELTER: Right.

HAM: We have found that even old blackface on a Democratic governor doesn't cause you to be punished. So that's a fairly bright line. And so I think, look, this is where we are, different people are going to stand by different standards. And, frankly, I think sometimes the right is held to different standards than the left is on these things. And Tucker -- by the way, this is another thing about this. This does not just resonate with a Fox audience. The idea that people are being cowed by political correctness and by this attempt to fire people and take people's scalps when they say something mildly errant, even if this is not mildly errant, this is something that resonates with a lot of Americans.

STELTER: Yes. Yes.

HAM: This is actually a large part of why Donald Trump was elected, even though I'm not a huge fan and often disagree with Tucker Carlson.

STELTER: (INAUDIBLE) what raises the bar.

BERMAN: Yes.

STELTER: Let's just raise the bar for everybody, though. Standards higher across the board. I hope that's not too much to ask.

CAMEROTA: I mean particularly when you -- well, when you have a platform, right? So, I mean, I think that when you are an opinion maker --

STELTER: Just don't be so hateful. Is that so much to ask? I don't know. Maybe it is.

BERMAN: All right, Mary Katharine Ham, Brian Stelter, thank you all. And we will hold everything you just said against you for many years to come.

STELTER: Yes. Exactly.

HAM: Good. Good.

BERMAN: So thank you for that. Appreciate it.

HAM: Excited about it. Hi, Media Matters.

BERMAN: The State Department is pulling all remaining staff from the U.S. embassy in Venezuela. We have a live report from Caracas on the crisis that's getting worse by the minute, next.

CAMEROTA: But, first, we have a preview of -- for you of the new CNN original series "The Rise and Fall of President Richard Nixon."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RICHARD NIXON, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: I don't give a God damn what the story is.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Richard M. Nixon has lied repeatedly.

NIXON: No reporter from "The Washington Post" is to ever be in the White House again. Do you understand?

The tougher it gets, the cooler I get. I have what it takes.

CROWD: Impeach Nixon now! Impeach Nixon now!

NIXON: And I want to say this to the television audience, because people have got to know whether or not their president's a crook. Well, I'm not a crook. This crap about Watergate --

Let others wallow in Watergate. We're going to do our job.

I'm going to kick their ass.

Nobody's going to package me. Nobody's going to make me put on an act for television. I'm not going to engage in any gimmicks or any stunts or wear any silly hats.

If people looking at me say that's a new Nixon, then all that I can say is, well, maybe you didn't know the old Nixon.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "Tricky Dick," a new CNN original series Sunday night at 9:00.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:43:54] BERMAN: All right, new this morning, the United States is withdrawing all remaining personnel from its embassy in Venezuela as the nation's self-declared interim president is calling for more protests today. The crisis there is deepening as much of that country remains without power.

Our Paula Newton is live in Caracas with the breaking details.

These are major, new developments. With the U.S. withdrawing all its personnel, you wonder if that's a prologue to something else.

PAULA NEWTON, CNN ANCHOR AND CORRESPONDENT: And that is the issue. And certainly Secretary of State Mike Pompeo keeping everything guessing with this one line, John, that I'm sure you know noticed, and that is that the presence of U.S. diplomatic staff at the embassy has become what he calls a constraint on U.S. policy. What does that mean? We've repeated over and over again what Donald Trump himself and his administration have said, all options are on the table. And that leads us to the decision about whether or not there will ever be military intervention here with the U.S. really leading that charge.

John, you remember that John Bolton, national security adviser, had on the back of a note pad written 5,000 troops in Columbia, and that's really what started these rumors going.

[08:45:00] You know, Nicolas Maduro is, of course, paying attention. He also used that word, that phrase, all options on the table against them saying that, look, at this point in time the all options on the table means that the United States is, in fact, responsible for this blackout we're going through right now, saying that they believe -- this is Maduro believes -- the U.S. government actually sabotaged the electricity system itself.

John, it will be really interesting to see how the opposition goes forward from here. Juan Guaido does have that declaration of a state of emergency. You can call for assistance, even intervention, but does he really have power to do anything?

John. Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: Things are not getting better there.

Paula, thank you very much for bringing us the update every hour.

All right, here's what else to watch today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ON SCREEN TEXT: 9:00 a.m. ET, Joe Biden speaks at DC union event.

10:00 a.m. ET, Speaker Pelosi holds news conference.

7:00 p.m. ET, Secretary of State Pompeo speaks in Houston.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: Just so viewers know, I really do love that music. Some people think I'm being facetious.

CAMEROTA: They believe you. Oh.

BERMAN: No, no, they're writing me saying, we can tell you hate -- no, I love it.

CAMEROTA: Yes. You want the full track.

BERMAN: Yes. I -- absolutely. I've got the full like dance mix.

All right, Hamilton and Burr. The duel was more than 200 years ago. Or was it? Two major league baseball players, yes, named Hamilton and Burr, they have it out on the diamond in costume. And they will join us, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:50:55] BERMAN: All right, the duel between then Vice President Aaron Burr and Alexander Hamilton, one of the key moments in all American history.

CAMEROTA: I just saw it on Sunday for the first time.

BERMAN: And one of the key moments on U.S., you know, stage.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

BERMAN: OK. This is what it looks like some 200 years ago. We have an etching.

CAMEROTA: Wow.

BERMAN: OK. There's the action.

CAMEROTA: Action-packed. BERMAN: That's what it looked like then. This is what it looked like this weekend in Arizona at a baseball field. That's Ryan Burr and Ian Hamilton, two pitchers for the Chicago White Sox. And they, in a way, re-enacted the Burr/Hamilton duel. Why? Because they had to. If someone named Burr and Hamilton both pitch for the White Sox, you've got to do something about it.

Joining us now is Ryan Burr.

Now, Ian Hamilton was supposed to be with us. I can only assume he's not with us because the duel --

CAMEROTA: You dueled him.

BERMAN: Yes, the duel went the way it did then?

RYAN BURR, PITCHER, CHICAGO WHITE SOX: Yes, exactly. You guys know how the history goes. No, he's just running a little late. But, no, yes, it was -- it was fun. It was a good time.

BERMAN: So, Ryan Burr, sir, as they say in the musical, explain to me exactly what happened here.

BURR: Yes, so, you know, here during spring training we try and do these team building exercises. And everybody kind of has like a little report that they have to do. And, you know, knowing the circumstances of having a Burr and a Hamilton in the same locker room, our manager, Rick Renteria thought it would be a good idea for us to, you know, revisit what happened back then and, you know, maybe change the narrative a little bit. So that's what we did.

CAMEROTA: Yes, but we don't believe that's what you did since Hamilton hasn't shown up. It seems like you actually did win the duel. So -- but what -- how did you re-enact the duel?

BURR: So what we -- what we basically wanted to do was just kind of revisited the story for all the guys on the team that didn't know what happened. And then not per se duel each other in the sense that it was, you know, back in the 1800s or anything, but kind of like a modern type of, you know, problem that we would face. I guess we used Hamilton, you know, telling everybody on Twitter that he could throw harder than me as, you know, as the main problem, and then me coming in and challenging him to a duel. But we -- we -- you know, we used some high-tech special effects, you know, like my phone to prerecord, you know, the ghost voices of Aaron Burr and Alexander Hamilton telling us to not duel. It's not worth it. We'd be better together -- you know, working together for the same cause. So that was the kind of thing we wanted to portray to the team was, you know, unity, coming together, we're better together than when we're not. That was -- that was the main thing that we wanted to get across.

BERMAN: It's almost exactly -- that is almost exactly how it went down 200 years ago.

CAMEROTA: Without the cell phones.

BERMAN: It -- without the cell phones and without the call --

CAMEROTA: And the unity.

BURR: Right. Yes.

BERMAN: And the call for unity.

BURR: Minus the cell phone, that's exactly what happened.

BERMAN: And minus the call for unity.

So what interests me here, Burr, sir, is that, you know, you pitch to major league players could hit the ball 10 billion miles per hour. You know, you play in front of thousands of people, yet you say you were more nervous for this presentation than you were for just about anything.

BURR: A hundred percent. My public speaking skills, something I'm not -- I don't practice very often, I guess you could say. You know, throwing a baseball is something that we do every single day. We've been doing it forever. But when you're asked to stand up in front of a group of your peers and, you know, the front office staff, you know, it can be a little intimidating. But we fought through the nerves and, you know, we put on a good little skit, so it was fun.

CAMEROTA: Did you have to sing or do any rap? I mean that's how they do it in the -- in the Broadway musical.

BURR: We -- we shied away from that a little bit. I think we let our nerves get the best of us when it came to that, but our acting was, you know, our acting was phenomenal.

BERMAN: All right, Ryan Burr, thank you so much for being with us this morning.

BURR: Absolutely.

BERMAN: Congratulations on your victory in the duel. And tell Ian Hamilton, if you do see him again, that his fans are waiting in the wings for him even as we speak.

[08:55:05] BURR: All right, I'll let him know. I'll let him know. Thank you, guys. Appreciate it.

CAMEROTA: Yes, but I want you to also present some photographic evidence that you didn't kill him, because we don't believe you right now. So put out on Twitter that he's OK.

BURR: He's actually standing off-camera right now.

CAMEROTA: Oh, very convenient.

BURR: He's standing off-camera right now.

CAMEROTA: Now he shows up.

BERMAN: That's right.

BURR: Yes. He's here now if you guys want to ask him -- make sure it wasn't me.

CAMEROTA: We have to go.

BERMAN: Thank you.

CAMEROTA: We believe you.

BURR: No, you're good. No, you're good.

BERMAN: "The Good Stuff" is next.

Thanks, Ryan.

CAMEROTA: Thanks so much.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAMEROTA: Time now for "The Good Stuff."

An Indianapolis couple is selling pizza with a purpose. Tom and Angie Wilhelmi (ph) opened a pizza shop and they decided to only serve former homeless -- oh, no, to only employ former homeless people living in transitional housing. One worker explains why it means so much to him and his co-workers.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To get them back up to where they feel human again.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: Tom was also once homeless. He says it makes him feel good to help those in need.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There are 15,000 homeless people around Indianapolis and there are not enough people to love and help them back up.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[09:00:06] BERMAN: Good on them. People want on chance.

END