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New Day

Pilots Expressed Concerns with Boeing Aircraft before Crashes; Paul Manafort to Face Second Sentencing Hearing; Interview With Rep. Ro Khanna. Aired 8-8:30a ET

Aired March 13, 2019 - 8:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:00:00] ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Helping to sound the alarm on all of this, and retrace the steps for how we got there. We look forward to your future reporting on all of this, and thanks so much for being on "new day".

SARI HORWITZ, REPORTER, "THE WASHINGTON POST": Thank you, Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: We have breaking details on what the U.S. government knew about the pilot's concerns about the Boeing bestselling jet, the one involved in the two deadly crashes. So let's get right to it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is CNN breaking news.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning, and welcome to your NEW DAY. It is Wednesday, March 13th, it is 8:00 in the east. And we do have breaking news on a major story. CNN has learned that at least five pilots reported control issues with the Boeing 737 MAX 8 jets while flying routes in the United States. Much of the world has grounded this jet after two deadly crashes in just the last five months.

CAMEROTA: Two key questions this morning. Why are these Boeing jets still flying here in the U.S.? And why does it take the media to uncover all of these concerns from the pilots instead of the FAA, or Boeing being transparent about the safety issues? CNN's Martin Savidge is live at Atlanta's International Airport with the breaking details. Martin?

MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Alisyn. There's no doubt that these revelations coming from now pilots in the United States saying that they had difficulty controlling this brand new aircraft are going to add to the concerns of the flying public. That public may not beware that there is this system in place for pilots to sort of self-report to the federal government, and that's what has been happening.

And let me read you one of the complaints that one of these pilots made. He said, "I think it's unconscionable that a manufacturer, the FAA, and the airlines would have pilots flying an airplane without adequately training or even providing available resources and sufficient documentation to understand the highly complex systems that differentiate this aircraft from prior models. The flight manual is inadequate and almost criminally insufficient. All airlines that operate the MAX must insist that Boeing incorporate all systems in their manuals." That's dated November, 2018, one month after the first crash of a MAX airplane. Since that time Boeing says it has updated its manuals and that additional training has been given to flight crews.

But still, this shows that there were problems by pilots with this plane in this country, and it also shows that there are still concerns by those pilots, which is why many are wondering why is the FAA still condoning that this fly in U.S. airspace. There are now 40 countries, including the European Union and China and Australia, that have said not only are they grounding the planes, those planes can't fly overhead in their countries.

But there are 70 such planes that are flying in the United States today, which means today thousands of passengers will be getting on board. Many of them may not be aware they're on the plane that's now suffered two terrible crashes. The FAA still maintains they're safe to fly. Alisyn?

CAMEROTA: Martin, thank you very much for the update from Atlanta. Joining us now, we have CNN aviation analyst, Miles O'Brien, he's also the science correspondent for PBS NewsHour, and Sara Nelson, international president of the Association of Flight Attendants. They called for this Boeing jet to be grounded.

Miles, I want to start with you because what CNN has learned from at least these five episodes that were so alarming to pilots, they felt the need to pick up the phone and call into this federal database to explain the weird thing that had happened to them in the air. So let me read some of these. The first one the pilot reports, "The aircraft accelerated normally, and the captain engaged the autopilot after reaching set speed. Within two to three seconds, the aircraft pitched nose down. The captain immediately disconnected the autopilot and pitched into a climb. We discussed the departure at length, and reviewed in my our automation setup and flight profile but can't think of any reason the aircraft would pitch nose down so aggressively." That's just one.

MILES O'BRIEN, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: That's a frightening narrative. And the FAA immediately after the Lion air crash, the first crash involving these 737 MAXs, indicated that the manufacturer needs to change its system and not rely on one sensor to feed the information to this automatic system designed to prevent a stall. So that is a tacit admission right there that you have a systemwide problem, and yet the FAA at the point allowed the aircraft to fly.

Then you get a second crash, which may or may not be the same root cause, but let's assume for a moment that it is because I think the burden of proof has shifted here a little bit. And the FAA still says this aircraft is safe to fly despite what so many other agencies and the airlines have stated. So I think it's, at this point, the idea of airing on the side of safety is a good idea, and the FAA should consider doing what others have done.

BERMAN: You bring up a great point, because Boeing has already said it needs to update the software. It says it needs to fix things, and yet it is standing by, and the FAA is standing by, the European Union, countries all over Asia and Central America are ground this plane. It really is stunning.

[08:05:04] O'BRIEN: There is an admission of a systemic problem already, whether this latest accident is connected or not. And so add this to the whole mix and I think there's tremendous pressure on the FAA to take action right now. They want to wait and see what's in those black boxes, that flight data recorder and that cockpit voice recorder. And that's good, but it's a slow process. And it's amazing in this day and age that we're waiting for this information to be pulled out of boxes that crashed with the plane.

CAMEROTA: Sara, how are flight attendants feeling this morning?

SARA NELSON, INTERNATIONAL PRESIDENT, ASSOCIATION OF FLIGHT ATTENDANTS, CWA (AFA): Flight attendants are concerned, and they are expressing concern all over the country. But we really called for the FAA to conduct a thorough investigation and to take steps immediately to restore confidence to the traveling public. Since that time, they said that they need to make a fix to these aircraft, and saying that that needs to be done by April is just not sufficient for travelers around the world, for other nations around the world who are saying why are we waiting here.

Harvard Business School still teaches the lessons that we learned from the Johnson & Johnson case when Tylenol was laced with cyanide, a few bottles. And the CEO recalled all of those Tylenol bottles and really showed that there's a return on integrity. We're really in a crisis of leadership here, and it's important that the United States continue to show the leadership that it has for all of these decades in U.S. aviation, restore public trust. These are two crashes close together. We don't have all the information yet. We should not jump to conclusions. But we should take steps right now to help everyone understand that this is under control, and we can have confidence in the system.

BERMAN: Let me tell you what Boeing says about this. It says "Safety is Boeing's number one priority, and we have full confidence in the safety of the MAX." Sara, do your flight attendants getting on these planes have full confidence in the safety of the MAX? Do they feel safe getting on these planes? What are you telling them to do this next month until April when this software fix comes into play?

NELSON: They're expressing concerns, and let me just say that we have tremendous confidence in the pilots who fly our planes, and we know that the pilots will not take up a plane that they don't believe is safe. We also have tremendous confidence in the 35,000 Boeing workers who have put together solid planes for a very long time.

This is a leadership issue. This is not about the people on the front lines who work very hard, thousands of people, to keep us safe. And so we have a lot of confidence in the people we fly with and the people who make these planes. But the leadership coming out of the FAA and out of Boeing really needs to change here and take a look at the real concern that is being expressed across the country. They need to ground the planes, take the steps to have everyone understand that they have made all the corrections necessary to ensure these planes are safe, and then we can get on about the business of the safest transportation system in the world.

CAMEROTA: One person who does not have confidence in the technology, Miles, is President Trump. He tweeted about how he finds it way too complicated, that that's the problem, the technology has advanced beyond what sort of man can handle. And yet he's the person who has the power to tell the FAA to ground these planes. One important bit of context, Boeing made a $1 million donation to President Trump's inaugural committee. And so we don't know why the president isn't calling for these planes to be grounded, but that's just important to keep in mind.

O'BRIEN: I for one don't mind having a smart person fly my airplane, and if Albert Einstein was a pilot I would be all in favor of that, actually. The fact is airplanes are much more complex, that is true. They are much more automated, and they are much safer than they ever were. Thinking about the old days and what it was like to fly the early 707s, crashes were much more frequent. So it is safer now.

There is a question, though, as you walk into the world of automation, of having the human being remain part of the loop. They need to know how the systems operates at least at a certain level, so if they fail, they know what to do quickly, because when the chips are down, that's when they get the airplane. And a lot of times they have been flying around, not putting their hands on the instruments, the control wheel, and their experience level flying the aircraft is not what it should be. So there's a real automation trap that should be explored.

BERMAN: I have a wristband that says Albert Einstein as my copilot.

(LAUGHTER)

BERMAN: Miles O'Brien, Sara Nelson, thank you very much for being with us this morning. These questions will continue all day. Why does this plane continue to fly, and the FAA will face this I think, until there's some kind of resolution.

CAMEROTA: And we will continue to hear from pilots even if it's confidential here, anonymously.

OK, another story. In about an hour former Trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort will be back in federal court, this time in Washington D.C., to be sentenced for a second criminal case. Manafort faces a maximum of 10 years in prison on conspiracy and witness tampering. CNN's Kara Scannell is live at the U.S. district courthouse in Washington with more. What do we expect, Kara?

[08:10:02] KARA SCANNELL, CNN REPORTER: Alisyn, Paul Manafort is facing 10 years in prison for those charges of conspiracy against the U.S. and conspiracy to obstruct justice. Now, this is going to be a very different setting than the one last week where Manafort was sentenced to 47 months in prison. Today in just about 90 minutes he will be before Judge Amy Berman Jackson. Judge Jackson has a history with Manafort and this case. She put him in jail last June after Manafort was charged with witness tampering. She is also the one who decided that he did break his cooperation agreement with the special counsel's office, finding that he lied to them multiple times. And she has heard that Paul Manafort, when he was Donald Trump's campaign manager, was having communications with the Ukrainian that the FBI says has ties to Russian intelligence.

So Judge Jackson can take all of this into consideration when she sentences Manafort. She's tapped by the statute at 10 years, but the big question here will be no matter what sentence she gives Manafort, does she have them be served side by side, or does she have them served consecutively? Manafort is going to turn 70 years old next month. If he gets the maximum sentence today and she rules these sentences should run one after the other, he faces up to 14 years in prison. It's a very long prison sentence for someone who is turning 70 years old. Alisyn, John?

BERMAN: It's one of those days when we all learn the difference between consecutively and concurrently.

CAMEROTA: I already knew it.

BERMAN: I learn it, we learn it every few months. Kara Scannell, thank you very much.

Joining us now is Shan Wu, he's the former defense attorney for Rick Gates and a CNN legal analyst, and CNN political analyst David Gregory. Shan, you among us have had cases before Judge Jackson. So what do you expect to see today?

SHAN WU, CNN LEGAL ANALYST:. Yes, I was before her with Mr. Manafort with Mr. Gates by my side back in the day. I expect that we're going to hear a big number initially, which the Manafort team is bracing itself for. But I think that's then going to be mitigated by her running a portion of it concurrently. So I think he's going to get a little bit more time, but some of it is going to be concurrent. He's not going to get that full 10 years, and she is capped at that number.

I think there's a lot of expectation that this judge may come down as some avenging angel to make up for what happened in Virginia. I don't expect to see that. She's a very no-nonsense judge. She hasn't tolerated any nonsense from Mr. Manafort, and she's going to sentence him fairly. But it's not going to be to make up for anything. It's going to be based on what's in front of her. And let's remember, he did plead guilty in this case, he didn't go all the way through trial and make them convict him by jury.

CAMEROTA: And David, give us the big picture of why this is so significant. This is the Trump campaign chairman. As you know President Trump has said but this has nothing to do with me. But that's not exactly right.

DAVID GREGORY, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, that's the big question, is whether it does have something to do with him. Manafort was a cooperator, and he did get dinged for lying as part of that cooperation agreement, which will be part of his sentence, no doubt, because you're evaluated as a cooperator when it comes to sentencing by the prosecutors and the judge.

But this was the campaign manager for the president, and there is evidence that has been brought against him about interference, about potential corruption to try to undermine the election in 2016. So the question for the Mueller team, then, is what does this have to do with President Trump, whether he knew, whether he culpable at all, whether there's any charges that he could bring if the Justice Department guidelines were different about charging a sitting president.

And of course, the political implications to the broader picture question, that is being consumed as all of this. As Mueller brings a high-profile prosecution, what is the ultimate sentence, who has he actually gotten and on what crimes is something that's being taken in by Congress as it looks to pick up the baton from Mueller once he's complete.

BERMAN: So Shan, if I can, you did represent Rick Gates. I'm not asking you any inside information about that because you couldn't tell us anyway, but based on the public information, we all know that there is a status hearing for Rick Gates at the end of this week. What happens with him next? Will he be sentenced? One of the things we could learn there is if there is more cooperation still needed from Rick Gates by prosecutors and investigators, why is that important?

WU: Absolutely, that is very important. Very telling factor for any cooperator, not just Gates, is when they, they being the prosecutors, want to further postpone the sentencing date, that means they're still working. There's still more information they want to get. And having represented cooperators, I know that I want that sentence postponed as long as possible to get every little bit of mileage out of my client's cooperation. So at that status hearing, if they signal they are willing to set a sentencing date, I think we can derive from that on the public record that his work is drawing to a conclusion.

CAMEROTA: So --

GREGORY: One point to bring up, just Shan mentioned there, representing cooperators, again, I think it's interesting because a lot of people watch to see is she going to come down hard on him. And again, it bears repeating that cooperators are performing.

[08:15:05] They're performing to offer a story that prosecutors want, and they're being evaluated by prosecutors who will ultimately make an argument to the sentencing judge about their value and then the judge -- and the problem here with Manafort as a cooperator is that he lied to the prosecution, which isn't a death nail but certainly is not helping.

CAMEROTA: Right, bad cooperator.

GREGORY: Yes.

CAMEROTA: And so, Shan, I mean, does -- I know you said she's not going to be an avenging angel for what happened with Judge Ellis's sentence but will she be -- can she punish him for her previous run- ins that she had had with Manafort, and that he has been a bad cooperator.

WU: Knowing Judge Jackson, she won't view that as any kind of punishment for what he has done in terms of the breaching his plea agreement or having his sentence, his bail being revoked. She's going to punish him for the crimes he's guilty of. She's going to base that on relevant conduct, and there's a lot of other relevant conduct to consider.

And I think you might even hear the ten years come out initially, but then she's going to mitigate that some, that's my speculation, and I think he's going to end up looking at additional time, maybe three or four more years than he's got. That's my guess.

BERMAN: I just note for our viewers that Shan was closer than anybody when it came to predicting Judge Ellis's sentence before, so I would listen very carefully here, like the showcase show down for Paul Manafort.

David Gregory, Shan Wu, thanks for being with us.

I also want to know, this all takes place very soon, it's a 9:30 court appearance. So, stay with CNN because this will unfold throughout the morning.

CAMEROTA: All right. Meanwhile, Joe Biden and Beto O'Rourke are sending the strongest signals yet about 2020. What are they waiting for? We discuss, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAMEROTA: A source tells CNN that former Texas Congressman Beto O'Rourke is ready to push the button on a 2020 run, and listen to former Vice President Joe Biden teasing a group of union firefighters yesterday in Washington.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT: I appreciate the energy you showed when I got up here.

[08:20:00] Save it a little longer, I may need it in a few weeks.

Be careful what you wish for.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: Joining us now is Democratic Congressman Ro Khanna. He is a national co-chair of Bernie Sanders 2020 campaign.

Congressman, thanks for being here.

How closely is Senator Sanders watching Joe Biden's decision making?

REP. RO KHANNA (D), CALIFORNIA: Well, I think we assume he's going to run, and a big field is terrific, but Senator Sanders is focused on his message, which is ending unconstitutional wars and helping bridge the income and wealth divide in this country.

CAMEROTA: Is he at all worried about Beto O'Rourke who seems to have a lot of star power or did during his last race getting into the race?

KHANNA: No, I think the more candidates the better, it will be a great debate. I know Beto O'Rourke, I worked with him in the House. He's a good person.

But when I think people look at the record, they will see that Senator Sanders has been standing up for progressive policies his whole life. He's going to stand up for the working class and communities left behind.

CAMEROTA: I mean, in terms of the working class lane -- you know, obviously, Joe Biden has been seen as somebody who's popular in that lane. Here's the latest poll. This is from Iowa. This is a CNN Des Moines register poll.

Joe Biden at 27, Bernie Sanders, 25, Elizabeth Warren, 9, Kamala Harris, 7.

So, is Joe Biden who Senator Sanders would consider his biggest competition?

KHANNA: I don't think so. I respect Vice President Biden but he voted for the war in Iraq and he supported TPP, which outsourced a lot of our jobs. So I just don't think that that's going to resonate in rural America in the heartland.

I think he should run. We should have a big field, but ultimately, this race is going to come down to policy and the positions that senator Sanders has taken on Medicare-for-All, on opposing bad wars, on raising the minimum wage, on opposing bad trade deals. I think that's going to resonate in the heartland.

CAMEROTA: I want to ask you about your role on the Oversight Committee and what you all are doing because as we know, Chairman Elijah Cummings is asking the White House and people around the Trump orbit for more documents, et cetera, and the White House is pushing back and not making things available.

What's your next move?

KHANNA: Well, I was just speaking with Chairman Cummings on the House floor yesterday and there's deep frustration. Chairman Cummings is a very fair person. He doesn't want to issue subpoena. He has asked repeatedly for the documents about security clearances.

Why is it that the White House overruled career officials to give security clearances to people like Jared Kushner but the who's has resisted so we're going to have to subpoena and then it's going to go to the courts and it's very unfortunate because we didn't want to go that route.

CAMEROTA: But you're now preparing for that route, and how long will that all take?

KHANNA: I don't know is the honest answer. I mean, it's unprecedented for the White House to refuse in the blatant way to give documents, even the Obama administration, when the Oversight Committee exercised a restriction over them, they handed over documents, Hillary Clinton handed over documents.

To just blatantly refuse the request is without precedent, but I'm confident the courts will force and compel the White House to produce these documents.

CAMEROTA: OK. And that leads us to the big news that Speaker Nancy Pelosi made when she said that she basically does not think that president Trump quote is worth impeachment.

How do you feel?

KHANNA: I think it's too soon to judge that issue. I think we have to wait for the Mueller report, look what the facts are, we have to wait for the Southern District of New York investigation, look what the facts are, wait for the committee's investigations, consult with constitutional law experts like Larry Tribe, Bruce Ackerman, and others and make a deliberative decisions.

So, I don't think it's fair to say one way or the other before the process has played out.

CAMEROTA: Well, look, as you know, there are a handful of freshman lawmakers who don't want to wait for the conclusions of some of these. I mean, they ran on this, and they're ready to move forward on this now. So what do you say to them?

KHANNA: Well, I think being in Congress on this question is like being on a jury, and how can you make a verdict or a decision before hearing all the arguments and hearing the closing statements. So, I would say, wait, the fairer we are in the process, the more confident the American people will have regardless of their political persuasion, this is one of the highest obligations and we need to do our duty and look at the facts and see if the constitution warrants further action.

CAMEROTA: Given what you just described about the time line for the oversight committee and that it would be tied up in the courts, there may not be a conclusion before 2020.

KHANNA: There may not but I'm confident, I think the Mueller report, as you know, Alisyn, is going to come out soon. I think we're going to hear more from the Southern District of New York. I think both of those are going to be critical factors and enough perhaps to make a decision.

[08:25:02] CAMEROTA: Congressman Ro Khanna, we really appreciate you coming on with your position today.

KHANNA: Thank you, Alisyn, for having me on this morning.

CAMEROTA: Thanks for being here.

John?

BERMAN: Paul Manafort is due in court for a second sentencing very, very soon. We're watching that very closely.

In the meantime, we're going to speak to a juror who convicted him in the trial in Virginia last year. What kind of sentence does she think he should get? And what about the idea of a possible pardon that the White House won't rule out? That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAMEROTA: Just about one hour from now, President Trump's former campaign chair Paul Manafort will be sentenced in a Washington, D.C. federal court. Manafort pleaded guilty to two counts of conspiracy and witness tampering related to his foreign lobbying work

Now, last week, Manafort was sentenced in Virginia to 47 months in prison for tax and bank fraud.

Joining us now is Paula Duncan. She was one of the jurors who convicted Manafort in that Virginia case.

Paula, thank you so much for being with us.

First, let me talk about what happened last week before what's happening today and what might happen in the future. That sentence of 47 months caught a lot of people off guard. They thought it was relatively light.

[08:30:00]