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Manafort Juror Responds to Sentence; Jackson to Decide Manafort's Fate; FBI Uncovers College Admissions Scam. Aired 8:30-9a ET

Aired March 13, 2019 - 08:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:30:00] JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: That sentence of 47 months caught a lot of people off guard. They thought it was relatively light because the sentencing guidelines were for 19-24 years.

As someone who sat through and watched this whole case, did 47 months seem fair to you?

PAULA DUNCAN, JUROR IN MANAFORT'S VIRGINIA TRIAL: Well, our job as the jurors were to determine guilt, not to determine the prison sentence. However, I can understand how some people might think that. I think traditional tax evasion cases do get a slightly lighter sentence. I'm kind of confused as to why 47 and not 48 months, but that's just me.

I think Judge Ellis probably did that because had he given Paul Manafort the larger sentence of 19, 20 years, then what Paul Manafort is facing today kind of wouldn't really even matter because he's not going to live too much longer than that. So he would spend the rest of his life in prison anyway. By giving him a lighter sentence, I think that Judge Ellis opened the door for the people in Washington today to have an impact on how long Mr. Manafort will stay behind bars.

BERMAN: And again, you have told us before, as someone who's sat through that trial, you thought Paul Manafort was guilty based on the evidence you saw, not just of the counts that he was ultimately convicted of, but the other ones where there was a hung jury. You thought he was very guilty, correct?

DUNCAN: Yes, me and all but one of my fellow jurors felt that beyond any doubt, he was guilty on all 18 counts.

BERMAN: And deserves to serve the sentence that he was given and perhaps whatever sentence he's given this week.

What's also notable about you, Paula, and what caught, I thought, the nation's attention was, you're a bill supporter of President Trump. You've made no bones about it. We saw your make America great hat again, yet you still found Paul Manafort guilty in spite of that. Why?

DUNCAN: I believe in our justice system, and I think that people can go in there and look at the facts and put their differences aside and come up with a reasonable decision. And I wanted people to know when I came up forward, one, that it was a close thing that he was almost convicted on all 18 counts, and also I wanted people to know that we're patriots first. We serve our country. Being a juror is a huge job. And I think that we need to have more faith in our justice system because it does work the way it was intended.

BERMAN: I agree with you 100 percent. I feel a great sense of patriotism whenever I go do jury duty. I think it's a wonderful thing.

Along those lines, the White House and the president have not ruled out the possibility of a pardon for Paul Manafort. Sarah Sanders, the White House press secretary, just last week really danced around the issue quite a bit. How would you react if the president pardoned Paul Manafort?

DUNCAN: I'd be very disappointed in President Trump if he pardoned Paul Manafort in any way, although typically presidents, when they do go out of office, have hundreds of people that they pardon, but my hope is that President Trump will serve a second term and by that time Paul Manafort will have served six years at least, and he'll be 76. I don't know how I'll feel at that time, but right now, at this moment, I feel it would be a big mistake, and I think it would send a wrong message to Americans.

BERMAN: What's that message?

DUNCAN: It would just say that you can do whatever you want, you can break the law, and I'll look the other way.

BERMAN: All right, Paula, thank you.

DUNCAN: And I don't want to hear that message from the president.

Can I just say one more time --

BERMAN: Go ahead.

DUNCAN: I want to encourage my fellow Americans to get out there and help at the polls. I -- I'll be helping at the polls. I helped with the polls at our last election, and I'll be there again. And we always need workers to -- and it's a great responsibility, and a great opportunity as an American to help our democracy thrive.

BERMAN: Paula Duncan, thank you for playing your part in the American system, and we appreciate you being with us this morning.

DUNCAN: Thank you, John.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: I appreciate her call for civic duty.

BERMAN: Yes.

CAMEROTA: I want to be on a jury because I want to meet out justice, but they don't choose me.

BERMAN: Well, it's a judgment issue, frankly.

CAMEROTA: And then I say that to the lawyers when they ask.

BERMAN: I mean let me -- let me -- I'm not talking -- not your judgment. Let's just --

CAMEROTA: All right, who -- who is the judge that will decide Paul Manafort's fate today? We're going to tell you more about Judge Amy Berman Jackson.

[08:35:03] BERMAN: No relation.

CAMEROTA: Uh-huh.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BERMAN: Paul Manafort faces a second sentencing in less than one hour. The judge overseeing the case in Washington, D.C. is Amy Berman Jackson. She has had a combative history with the President Trump's former campaign chair. Judge Jackson is also presiding over a series of Special Counsel Robert Mueller's cases. She's really become a key figure in the larger story here.

CNN's Laura Jarrett is live in Washington with much more on this.

Laura.

LAURA JARRETT, CNN CORRESPONDENT: John, no matter today's outcome, it will be a significant moment in the legacy of the Russia investigation. Paul Manafort facing a tough judge, a former prosecutor, Harvard educated, who knows his case inside and out. And the big question is whether Judge Jackson is going to throw the book at him or offer some leniency.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JARRETT (voice over): She's the judge who originally put Paul Manafort behind bars. Now Judge Amy Berman Jackson is back in the spotlight with the power to put Manafort in prison another ten years.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I feel very badly for Paul Manafort.

JARRETT: An Obama appointee unanimously confirmed by the Senate, Jackson has been overseeing a series of cases related to Robert Mueller's investigation.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Roger, what's the message you want to send to the committee today?

JARRETT: Including that of Roger Stone and Rick Gates. And her history with Manafort runs deep.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, traitor.

JARRETT: She revoked his bail last June after finding he tried to coach potential witnesses, a violation that has kept him in jail ever since. And unlike T.S. Ellis, the judge in Virginia who painted Manafort's crimes as an aberration in an otherwise blameless life, Jackson has been unyielding in her assessment that Manafort lied about matters central to the special counsel's work, concluding in February he made multiple false statements about his communications with Konstantin Kilimnik, an associate prosecutors say has ties to Russian intelligence. While his attorney says Manafort has been unfairly vilified.

KEVIN DOWNING, ATTORNEY FOR PAUL MANAFORT: There is no evidence that Mr. Manafort or the Trump campaign colluded with the Russian government.

[08:40:00] JARRETT: And she's shown a no nonsense approach when it comes to the cases of other Trump associates as well, scolding Trump confidant Roger Stone after he posted a picture of crosshairs next to her head. Jackson telling Stone, quote, from this moment on, the defendant may not speak publicly about the investigation or the case or any of the participants in the investigation or the case, period.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

JARRETT: While Manafort is facing some serious time, no matter how you look at it, especially given his age, Stone's lawyers are hoping to keep him out of jail, trying to convict Judge Jackson that he didn't violate her gag order with the re-release of his book. Stone will be in court tomorrow.

John and Alisyn, back to you.

CAMEROTA: Yes, it's promising to be an interesting week.

Thank you very much, Laura.

JARRETT: Thanks.

CAMEROTA: All right, here's what else to watch today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ON SCREEN TEXT: 9:30 a.m. ET, Paul Manafort sentencing in D.C.

12:00 p.m. ET, Vice President Pence speaks in West Virginia.

1:45 p.m. ET, President Trump receives border briefing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: All right, it is called the worst cheating scandal ever uncovered in the admissions process by the Department of Justice. Yes, there are two actresses on the list here, but it's so much bigger than that. Rich folks paying to get their kids into college. And it really could just be the tip of the iceberg.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:45:43] CAMEROTA: Actresses Felicity Huffman and Lori Loughlin among 50 people busted in the largest college cheating scheme ever prosecuted by the Justice Department. The parents indicted in the probe allegedly paid bribes of up to $6.5 million to get their children into some of America's most elite colleges. And CNN's Brynn Gingras joins us now from Boston.

This is just -- the details just get crazier, Brynn.

BRYNN GINGRAS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It really is incredible. Operation Varsity Blues, Alisyn, is what they called it. I just love that name. It was a yearlong investigation. It included audio recordings, e-mails of parents setting up these arrangements. That's actually the evidence that investigators say they have against Felicity Huffman, against Lori Loughlin, her husband, fashion designer Mossimo Giannulli. Actually, Huffman and Giannulli were in court yesterday. But others are going to appear before a judge, including CEO's of major companies, athletic coaches, even a woman who co-authored an article about coddled children has been charged in this case.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The FBI uncovered what we believe is a rigged system.

GINGRAS: The Justice Department outlining a wide ranging college admissions bribery scheme, charging at least 50 people, including 33 wealthy parents, with paying up to $6.5 million to help their children gain admission into some of the nation's most competitive universities, including Yale and Stanford.

ANDREW LELLING, U.S. ATTORNEY, MASSACHUSETTS: We're talking about deception and fraud, fake test scores, fake athletic credentials, fake photographs, bribed college officials.

GINGRAS: The fraud allegedly two-fold, parents paying to inflate their children's standardized test scores or faking athletic records to get students recruited for sports they did not even play, in some cases going so far as to PhotoShop kids' faces onto pictures of the athletes. The admitted mastermind behind the scam, William Singer, who set up a fraudulent charity used to launder the money parents gave him for bribes.

WILLIAM SINGER, PLEADED GUILTY IN COLLEGE BRIBERY SCANDAL: Getting into the right college will set the trajectory for the rest of your son or daughter's life. Don't leave it to chance.

GINGRAS: Singer pleading guilty to multiple charges, including racketeering, telling a Boston judge, quote, I created a side door that would guarantee families would get in. Among the parents listed in the complaint, actress Lori Loughlin, best known for her role as Aunt Becky on "Full House."

LORI LOUGHLIN, ACTRESS, "FULL HOUSE": You know what, we should just back off, OK. We are getting frustrated and so are they.

GINGRAS: According to court documents, Loughlin, along with her husband, fashion designer Mossimo Giannulli, paid $500,000 for their daughters to gain admission into USC as rowing recruits, despite not participating in the sport. They could not be reached for comment. Loughlin's daughter, Olivia Jade, is a current freshman at USC who posted this video about college on her YouTube page.

OLIVIA JADE, LORI LOUGHLIN'S DAUGHTER: I do want the experience of like game days, partying. I don't really care about school, as you guys all know.

GINGRAS: Also charged, Felicity Huffman, who starred on "Desperate Housewives."

FELICITY HUFFMAN, ACTRESS, "DESPERATE HOUSEWIVES": I can see why you're upset.

GINGRAS: Huffman is accused of using Singer's other admissions approach, allegedly paying $15,000, quote, for a third party to purport to proctor their daughter's SAT and secretly correct her answers. Huffman appearing in court Tuesday before posting a $250,000 bond. Her husband, actor William H. Macy, has not been charged in the scheme, but was in court taking notes throughout the hearing.

Now, Singer could face up to 65 years in prison. No students were charged in this case, but authorities really didn't rule anything out, saying more arrests could come in the future. No universities were charged in this case either. Some schools already taking action, terminating coaches. Others like USC have opened their own internal investigation.

Alisyn and John.

BERMAN: All right, thank you, Brynn.

I want to bring in Frank Bruni, "New York Times" op-ed columnist and CNN contributor. He wrote really a wonderful book on college admissions. It's called, "Where You Go is Not Who You'll Be," an antidote to the college admissions mania.

We're also joined by Michael Eric Dyson. His book, "What Truth Sounds Like: Robert F. Kennedy, James Baldwin, and Our Unfinished Conversation about Race in America."

[08:50:00] Frank, you wrote a great column overnight also where you note that this illegality, this breathtaking crime, is part in parcel of a larger issue here, which is the leaching of merit out of the admissions process, to quote you.

FRANK BRUNI, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Yes. No, exactly. I mean money and advantage have corrupted this process for a very long time. And here we're talking about some very ugly, illegal activity, but it's not that far removed from stuff that happens all the time in terms of parents of means paying money, cutting corners to get their kids an edge over less affluent, less privileged kids. And we need to take a look at this system, this is a really good moment to do that, and ask about how that happens and what it means.

And, you know, when -- we've talked a lot politically about people who kind of -- Americans who are struggling economically and seethe at the elite. When they see that the -- seethe at the elite and the advantages the elite have, they're talking situations like college admissions. They're talking about this whole -- not this particular scheme, but everything that this scheme represents, and how people of privilege exploit that to guarantee it for their kids in ways that sometimes leave less privileged families out of the equation.

CAMEROTA: Michael, how do you see it?

MICHAEL ERIC DYSON, AUTHOR, "WHAT TRUTH SOUNDS LIKE": Well, that's absolutely right. And if you nuance Frank's important point about privilege was the issue of color. You know, there are black people and brown people and people of color across America going, geez, you ought to know this, huh? Very interesting. Because privilege has worked often in ways that are invisible to the radar, so to speak. So that one of the interesting things about this case is when it says, what many of the students didn't recognize that they were benefiting from or advantaged by their parents' shenanigans. What happens there, that's an interesting metaphor for what happens when privileged people then go on to lecture people of color or underserved communities or poor people about, you know, just work hard and you'll be able to get in.

The myth of aristocracy itself is at stake here and merit is always a contingent good. That means it -- it is determined by whatever you're competing for at that particular point. So that what part of the country you're from is important. If you're competing against people who have the same test scores that you do, oh, but I play the violin and I'm from Oklahoma and we haven't had Oklahoma students admitted in the past, so people would be surprised about the goods that are distributed, predicated upon criteria that they have no idea about.

CAMEROTA: Such a great point because, Frank, you and I were talking about how the children of these privileged people may not -- may be oblivious to the fact that they leapfrogged everybody because they've had such lives of privilege. If you get constantly a seat at a fancy restaurant, if you fly first class, you don't think twice that maybe your parents are going to pay a consultant to help you because you're used to slinking the road.

BRUNI: No, you're 100 percent right. This is the higher education version of the best table in the restaurant. And a lot of these children, I think, are just used to it. And it has never occurred to them that this has nothing to do with their merit or anything that they deserve and has everything to do with the luck of their birth.

But, I mean, I think it is important what was just said about merit and whether we -- you know, this -- the college admissions system is sometimes about merit and just as often not. And we have created this thinking among kids that if they don't get in, it means they're less than, it means they don't deserve to. No, it just may mean they didn't know how to pay the game correctly and didn't have parents who pulled enough strings.

BERMAN: So fix it. So how do we fix it, Michael?

DYSON: Well, first of all, let's talk about some of that privilege. You know, when -- when students are being taught the SAT or ACT preparation, when you have entire industries and cottage industries booming as a result of access to that particular good, you know a couple of things. First of all, the tests don't determine intelligence, they determine test-taking skills. So we've got to distribute that more equally, right? When you are lacerating young, you know, students of color, or even communities that say they have cheating scandals. Oh, these minority students in these minority communities and that's a shame, in Atlanta and in Louisiana. Well, good God, the reason that they're trying to get a leg up is because unbeknownst to most of America, but not necessarily to those who are in those positions of being underrepresented, they know the game is rigged from the get-go. They know that they have tremendous barriers to overcome.

So, first of all, we've got to demythologize the notion of a test- taking culture. That test-taking is predicated upon an ability to take tests and how you're being trained to it. Let's talk about bigger values in American culture, learning. Learning for its own sake. The ability to engage in a reasoned analysis of ideas. I tell my students, when you come to class, half the stuff you learn will be obsolete by the time you graduate. Learn how to think. And when we get that involved in the process of admissions, where we look at a broader range of considerations than the test scores you have and how well you did and how much money your parents have, then we'll have a much more fair and just system of higher education in this country.

CAMEROTA: What do you think the answer is?

BRUNI: I think we have to shame school admissions departments into really looking at a kid and saying what are -- what has this kid accomplished vis-a-vis what this kid had handed to him or her. And if we hold them to account for that, if we kind of really put public pressure, I think some of them will get better. Some of them are getting better as we speak, but as this scandal shows, there are still plenty of ways in which they're not vigilant and they're letting people game the system.

[08:55:12] BERMAN: And, again, just to go back to this actual case in and of itself, this guy William Singer exploited, I think, some of the flaws in this system here. You know, crew, getting your kids into USC for rowing crew.

BRUNI: Right.

BERMAN: You know, water polo.

BRUNI: Right.

BERMAN: Fencing.

BRUNI: Yes.

BERMAN: You know, sports like that, sailing --

CAMEROTA: Though they've never played them. Let's just be clear.

BERMAN: Well, I know they never played them, but it's the fact that they exist and there are people already emphasizing those issues as ways to get into school.

BRUNI: Yes. Yes.

BERMAN: It's a clear weakness as it is (ph).

BRUNI: No, that's a -- that's a great point, because inner city schools don't have water polo, don't have crew, don't have fencing.

DYSON: But I'll tell you what they do have. They have black kids who go to play basketball at these institutions, talk about another scandal, and people reap millions and millions of dollars of benefit and advantage from them. Coaches, largely white coaches on the sideline, reaping $5 million to $10 million a year making shoe contracts a desirable commodity while we're telling those students, just be grateful for the education you're receiving now.

CAMEROTA: Yes. Well --

DYSON: That's a bigger scandal about which we've probably have little (ph) to say.

CAMEROTA: It's all part and parcel, I think, of the same thing, which is schools emphasizing sports over merit. I mean let's get back to learning, I guess.

Gentlemen, thank you both very much for this conversation.

So, Paul Manafort is about to arrive for his second sentencing in Washington, D.C. These are live pictures and CNN's coverage continues, next.

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END