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New Zealand Begins to Bury 49 Killed in Terror Attack; Accused Gunman Sent Hate-Filled Manifesto to Prime Minister's Office Minutes Before Attack; Uptick of Domestic Terrorism Arrests in U.S.; Trump Punts on White Supremacy after New Zealand Attack; Beto O'Rourke Starts His Presidential Campaign with 2 Apologies; Joe Biden Teases Audience on Presidential Bid; Are More Subpoenas Coming after Robert Mueller Says Not Done with Cooperators Gates & Flynn; Andrew Weissmann Leaving Mueller's Special Counsel; Manafort Wants Prison Sentence Carried Out in Cushy Prison in Cumberland, Maryland; Jack Screw Found at Ethiopian Air Crash Could Link to Indonesia Air Crash. Aired 3-4p ET

Aired March 16, 2019 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:00:00] ANA CABRERA, CNN ANCHOR: Good afternoon. I'm Ana Cabrera, in New York. You're live in the CNN NEWSROOM.

And right now, New Zealand is beginning the process of burying 49 people killed in the worst mass shooting in its history. Today, we learned the accused gunman sent a long hate-filled manifesto to the prime minister's office just minutes before the deadly attack began. He was charged with one count of murder at his first court appearance, although officials say more charges will definitely follow.

This is new video of the suspect, a 28-year-old man, being taken down by police in Christchurch, ending a half-hour deadly rampage at two mosques in that city. The alleged killer from Australia. And his drive to murder people of the Islamic faith is part of the new information emerging today.

Live to Christchurch right now and international correspondent, Alexandria Field.

Alexandria, it is early Sunday morning there. How is the community dealing with the shock of this unimaginable violence?

ALEXANDRIA FIELD, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Ana, all weekend, we have been seeing people come out to grieve and to mourn. I'm standing in front of one of the vigils that sprung up here in Christchurch. There's a sign on the wall, "We stand together with our Muslim brothers and sisters." And that's the sentiment we've seen expressed by so many people here.

When you talk about the Muslim community in New Zealand, it is just about 1 percent of the population. Tiny. But these attacks are being felt so deeply, and so widely. People have been in the streets, wiping tears from their eyes, comforting one another, and sharing unbelievable stories of the horror they experienced inside those two mosques.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AHMED KHAN, WITNESS: The guy shot at me, but I dodged down. So he missed me. And then I ran back to the mosque, and tell everyone to go to the ground, because there's someone with a gun that is going to shoot everyone. Then everyone went to the ground and then he started shooting through the windows.

KHALAD AL SHEDOKHI (ph), WITNESS: I saw the bullets on the wall. The man came inside. And we couldn't go anywhere. Just I looked, I was standing next to the window, I smashed the window and escaped through the window, and many people run after me, and we went to the backyard.

SUE HARRISON, WITNESS: After the gunshots had stopped for a few minutes, we peeked out the window and we could see people in the backyard of the mosque milling around. And they were upright, they weren't running, they weren't panicking, they were just sort of walking around, there was wailing going on.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FIELD: That woman, Sue Harrison, who you just heard describing what she saw just across the way from that mosque, she has lived in Christchurch a long time. Ana, I had a conference with her. She reflected on the devastation that this community felt less than a decade ago after severe earthquakes. And she said to me, you know, you just cannot compare these two things. That was a natural disaster. As horrible as it was, and it pales in comparison when you talk about the kind of evil that can be carried out by man. And that has been reflected on here in Christchurch this weekend -- Ana?

CABRERA: So heartbreaking.

Alexandra, what more can you tell us about the people arrested, particularly the alleged gunman? Did police know who he was before?

FIELD: This is not someone who was known to them. This is not someone who is from New Zealand. A 28-year-old white Australian male, as you point out. We're learning more from authorities. We know that he had been in and out of New Zealand, but this is not community he was living in. Why did he pick this place? That is at the heart of the investigation. What was said in the community is this is a man who chose to come here to spread his message of hate.

Investigators looking closely at all leads. They're delving closely into his background, speaking to people who knew him, going to different places where he lived trying to understand this hate-filled manifesto that was posted online. And they're also looking at what else he may have planned to do.

They were able to take him into custody 36 minutes after the first phone call was made to police. At the time, they detained him. They said he had more firearms in his car and also IEDs. So they believe that this somebody who is not finished with the mission to wreak havoc and terror right here in Christchurch. CABRERA: Thirty-six minutes. That must have felt like an eternity

for so many people in that community.

Alexandria Field, thank you for that reporting.

Back to the next new important detail we have learned. Just moments before the attack, the prime minister's office received a lengthy hate-filled manifesto from the gunman in which he ranted about an invasion of Muslim immigrants.

CNN's Drew Griffin picks up that part of our coverage.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DREW GRIFFIN, CNN INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's titled "The Great Replacement," 87 pages, more than 16,000 words. Not rambling. But a spell-checked referenced dissertation on a hate- filled view of immigrants, immigration and Muslims. Unsigned. It is the killer's explanation for why he did this.

JACINDA ARDERN, NEW ZEALAND PRIME MINISTER: These are people, who I would describe as having extremist views that have absolutely no place in New Zealand, and, in fact, have no place in the world.

[15:05:07] GRIFFIN:: The manifesto was posted online by this man, under the name Brenton Tarrant. CNN has not yet confirmed this is his real name. But there's no doubt that the 28-year-old under arrest is a white supremacist who believes his own white European race is being wiped out by immigration, labeling it white genocide.

It is also the universal rallying cry of hate-filled white supremacists across the world. In Charlottesville, Virginia. The Neo-Nazi cry was --

NEO-NAZIS: Jews will die.

GRIFFIN: In Warsaw, Poland, in 2017, some marchers in an Independence Day demonstration carried banners that read "White Europe" and "Clean Blood."

In 2015, in Charleston, South Carolina, a white teenager named Dylan Roof murdered nine African-Americans in a church. The white supremacist reportedly said, "Y'all are raping our white women, y'all are taking over the world," as he gunned down unarmed parishioners.

GRIFFIN:: The rhetoric is old, but new technology has allowed these messages of hate to be spread in real time across the globe. The New Zealand killer streamed parts of his attack live on Facebook, the video spread to YouTube, Twitter, new sites, before police pleaded for it to stop.

MIKE BUSH, COMMISSIONER, CHRISTCHURCH POLICE AGENCY: I have seen social media footage. It's very disturbing. That shouldn't be in the public domain. And we're doing everything we can to remove it.

GRIFFIN:: Hours after the attack, copies of the gruesome video still continued to be appear, shared by social media users.

While police will not discuss motive, the suspect refers to Dylann Roof and writes that he was inspired by white supremacist, Anders Breivik, who killed 77 people in Norway eight years ago.

He does try to explain his own breaking point came in 2017.

(SHOUTING)

GRIFFIN: The French presidential election of what he describes as an anti-white ex-banker, and the terror-related death of an 11-year-old Swedish girl, run down by a Muslim terrorist in a stolen truck in Stockholm, a crime he writes he could no longer ignore.

(on camera): In his 87 pages, the suspect does make one reference to Donald Trump. He writes, "Are you a supporter," asking himself. "As a symbol of renewed white identity and common purpose," he answers, "Sure. As a policy maker and leader? Dear, God, no."

Drew Griffin, CNN, Atlanta.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CABRERA: Thanks, Drew.

Now the FBI, this weekend is, going through its databases to see if the gunman has any U.S. connections.

Meanwhile, CNN law enforcement analyst, Josh Campbell, has learned of an uptick of domestic terror arrests in this country. And Josh is with us now. Along with Brian Levin, director for the Center for the Study of Hate and Extremism at Cal State University, San Bernardino.

Thank you both for being here.

Josh, with everything we've learned so far about the suspect and the attack, what stands out most to you?

JOSH CAMPBELL, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Ana, I think the fact that the person wasn't known to law enforcement is the most troubling aspect. Now, in any investigation, that's obviously key. If there's someone that law enforcement either has collected on or they have received some type of tip from the public, they can start an investigation and start looking into this person and sometimes mitigate a threat before it actually happens. The fact that he wasn't known to law enforcement is obviously very key. Now there's sadly nothing we can do right now, sitting here today, to save, you know, or to bring back the 49 lives that were lost. But I hope with the world, those watching understand that there are things you can do, in order to be on the lookout for certain indicators. And as an investigator, one of the most frustrating aspects is when you look at the spectrum, when someone becomes radicalized and once they decide to act, it is that radicalization phase that provides the most opportunity for detection to look at precursors. If a member of the public sees someone who is gathering weapons or espousing hatred, that is a period of time that's ripe for them to go to law enforcement, say there's something about this person that we're concerned about. Once you move to the mobilization to violence, that's a very short phase, that flash to bang, and often times, there's nothing that law enforcement officers can do. So I hope that the American people understand and the world understands that we have to be more observant of these indicators, these precursors, and report them whenever we suspect there might be something troubling in our midst.

CABRERA: This is also studying, Brian. As someone who has studied and researched hate, what's your take? What stands out most to you?

BRIAN LEVIN, DIRECTOR, THE CENTER FOR THE STUDY OF HATE AND EXTREMISM, CALIFORNIA STATE UNIVERSITY, SAN BERNARDINO: I will tell you what stands out most to me. In the narrative and folklore of the far-right white nationalist movement are a few things. One is leaderless resistance. When I testified before Congress, all the wail back in '95, we talked about that, the notion of lone wolves or small autonomous cells that are stealth. Exactly what we are were just listening to with our other colleague here. Moreover, the weaponization of social media. Not only to ensnare people with radicalization, but there's also something called "propaganda of the deed," with respect to white nationalists and skinheads, racist skinheads, and that is, you market your ideology through acts of violence, where violence becomes the message. And the fact that we have this live-streamed is something we're going to ask major social media platforms to try to prevent. So the "propaganda of the deed" has now been, not only weaponized but it is on steroids, as now, these folks not only put the violence up, but also their manifestos where they reference other iconic murders in these horrible movements.

[15:10:52] CABRERA: And on that note, Josh, I want to play something that we heard from a former white nationalist here on CNN just last night.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRISTIAN PICCIOLINI, FORMER WHITE NATIONALIST: What's happening on the Internet is that it is essentially a 24-hour hate buffet. It is that alley, I was standing in it, 14 years old, and had to have a person physically connect with me, to recruit me. What is happening now, is people are going to this buffet and they can feast all night long on message forums that are not even geared toward white nationalism.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: Josh, circling back to your mention that this guy was not known to police in advance, however, we learned that he'd been planning this attack, they believe, for two years. How can these social media platforms be monitored? And at what point can law enforcement take action?

CAMPBELL: So there's always this debate about where is the boundary between free speech and hatred that law enforcement can actually act upon. Now, obviously, here in the United States, and in many of the Western countries, we have freedom of speech. We can criticize. We can express our views. But once you come up to that line and, you know, you are now inciting hatred and now inciting violence, then law enforcement can act. But often times, they don't have visibility on a lot of these conversations, which, as you mentioned, is really incumbent upon social media platforms to monitor their systems. We know this is possible. We know that social media companies, they make their money by targeting us for advertisement. They know everything about us. They track what we search for and track what we look at and they track our friends, again, in order to sell us items. And it is not impossible for them to also be on the lookout for some precursors to violence -- such as someone who espouses hate, or buzz words, making connections, talking about violence and radicalization -- and providing those tips over to law enforcement. It can be done with the same framework that they use to conduct their business.

CABRERA: Brian, according to the FBI data, according to the global terrorism index, crimes of this nature are on the rise. Is that consistent with your research? And what do you think is behind it? Beyond this social media aspect that we've been discussing.

LEVIN: Great point. And, yes, it is. We have a report coming out soon. It's going to show hate, extremists, homicides, with respect to white nationalists and far right, rising at a time when violent jihadists are falling and, additionally, social media engagement as we've discussed.

But one of the things that I think is interesting about this is it is internationalized. This is salient. He used a book from France. He referenced Americans in his messaging. It was a hodgepodge collage scrapbook. And the bottom line is, in America, we have very loose standards because of the First Amendment. Hatred alone is not a basis for a criminal investigation. And even incitement in the abstract to violence is something that is not criminally punishable. What the Supreme Court has said, hate speech is protected, but traditional crimes and threats, when someone crosses the line into a threat, or a conspiracy to commit a crime later, even if it never occurs, then American law enforcement can get involved. In Europe, a different story. Hate speech over there is criminalized. So what I think we have to do is monitor this stuff and look for those where we have leakage, 30 to 40 percent of the cases.

One quick point though. We are seeing a fragmentation with regard to not only our socio-political landscape but how we communicate. Facebook just recently said they are going to concentrate on message- to-message communications, as opposed to these broad ones, which they do. So what we're going to see is affinity-based platforms of hate, which are more fragmented, stealth, harder to find, and communication directly between by bigots once they get ensnared in this radical landscape that exists all over the world.

CABRERA: That is a thought, especially when they're moving in that direction in order to eliminate some of the issues that have crept up because of the monstrosity that social media has become, and really out of the reach of what was intended.

Brian Levin, Josh Campbell, thank you for your insight. Thank you.

CAMPBELL: Thanks, Ana. [15:15:05] CABRERA: We have information about how you can help the victims of the New Zealand terror attacks. Log on to CNN.com/impact.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CABRERA: President Trump expressed sorrow for what he called "monstrous terror attacks at sacred places of worship," but he is downplaying the threat from white nationalism.

Here is how he responded when asked about the extent of the problem.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Do you see today as white nationalism as a rising threat around the world?

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I don't really. I think it is a small group of people that have very, very serious problems.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: During that same question-and-answer session, the president used the same word the suspect in New Zealand used in his rants against immigration, calling it an "invasion."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[15:20:08] TRUMP: We're on track for a million illegal aliens to rush our borders. People hate the word invasion, but that's what it is. It is an invasion of drugs and criminals and people.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: Joining us now, Olivia Nuzzi, Washington correspondent for "New York" magazine, and Margaret Talev, senior White House correspondent for "Bloomberg News" and a CNN political analyst.

Olivia, why is the president so hesitant to call out white nationalism specifically and white supremacy?

OLIVIA NUZZI, WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT, NEW YORK MAGAZINE: I think this is a pattern certainly. I think a part of it that he doesn't feel like he should have to. He doesn't feel like he should -- I think he sees it as bowing to the media in some way. He doesn't seem to think of his job as having anything to do with uniting the country, uniting the world or using his own rhetoric to make people feel comforted. We know that he does not really think that way about what his role is in American politics and on the world stage. So it is not surprising, but it is sort of disheartening after any sort of tragedy when the president responds as he does.

CABRERA: But yet, the president spoke about the anti-Semitic motive in the attack on a Jewish temple in Pittsburgh. He talked about the merciless slaughter of Christians following the deadly suicide bombings in Egypt. But he didn't even mention the anti-Muslim sentiment in the New Zealand attack.

Margaret, what do you make of that?

MARGARET TALEV, CNN POLITIAL ANALYST: Yes, it is very hard to try to get inside his mind and understand why he is doing what he is doing, but it is impossible to miss the message. And when you're the president of the United States, you have a voice, you have the most prominent voice to send signals to the rest of the country and to the rest of the world. And the fact is that there's statistically a measurable rise in anti-Islamic sentiment, violence, reported acts of violence, over the last few years. The Pew Research Center is one of the groups that has done a lot of research on this. Looking at FBI statistics, saw a spike right around the time of the 2016 election really taking root, 2015 and 2016, assaults, reported assaults, on the Islamic community at a rate that we hadn't seen since 2001. And in the years since then, in the United States, it has really stayed up around those levels. We've seen also statistics in Canada, in the U.K., that show increased violence or hostility toward Muslims, and of course, the rise of the far-right parties, particularly in Europe. So there's no shortage of evidence that this is a growing problem for Muslims and that there are growing concerns about how the Internet, social media, and political winds are creating this rising profile, not just in the U.S. but around the world.

CABRERA: Right. And it's not just here in the U.S., as you point out.

But this president does have a history of anti-Muslim comments. Let's listen to some of the things he has said in the past.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: If you have people coming out of mosques with hatred and with death in their eyes and on their minds, we're going to have to do something.

I think Islam hates us. There's something, there's something there. There's tremendous hatred there.

It is radical Islamic terrorism. OK? There's a lot of hatred.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: "Islam hates us." Have comments like that contributed to the rise of Islamophobia and racism and other forms of hate, Olivia.

NUZZI: We talked about the president hasn't talked about what motivated the massacre when he has talked about what motivated the synagogue shooting or violence against Christians in the world, and I think the answer is that, even though his campaign was accused of having some anti-Semitic messaging, he has never been explicit. He's never said anything that is as explicit as what he has said about Muslims coming into the country. He's never said anything about Christians or said things about Muslims, as you showed in the clips, so it could be very difficult for him to talk about what motivated this shooting without having to answer the obvious follow-up questions, which would be, do you have any role in this, should you take responsibility, should you change the way that you have spoken about Muslims historically. I think it would be difficult for him to answer those questions. And I don't think that he wants to face those questions.

TALEV: I would just say --

(CROSSTALK)

CABRERA: How would you compare -- go ahead.

TALEV: I would also say, for the president, yesterday's messaging, what he had hoped it would be all about, is about the wall, U.S. border security at the Mexico border, and his veto of that vote that offered a series of Republican defections. And for the president, he very much wants to be able to control the domestic political narrative. He presumably knew that the deeper he weighs in on what is undeniably a huge international concern, terrorism, violence on a scale like this against Muslims, that that would become the story. And if you look at his Twitter feed today, you can see all of the messaging, both from the president and from the White House, is back on the veto, the wall and U.S. border security.

[15:25:32] CABRERA: And to your point on the international terror threat and white supremacy, that is exactly the language used by the Anti-Defamation League, saying the New Zealand mosque attack shows that white supremacy is an international terror threat, making it an even bigger story.

Thank you so much, Margaret Talev and Olivia Nuzzi, for weighing in and offering your insights.

Let's turn to those who want to be president. He's only been in the race for a couple of days, but 2020 candidate, Beto O'Rourke, is already apologizing for not one, but two things. One of which has to do with his wife. We'll explain.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:30:32] ANA CABRERA, CNN ANCHOR: What a campaign start. Two big apologies from Democratic presidential candidate, Beto O'Rourke, as he continues his swing through Iowa. Last night, he said it was wrong of him to make a joke at several events that his wife had been raising their three children, quote, "sometimes with my help." The comment triggered complaints that female candidates could never similarly joke about their roles raising children.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BETO O'ROURKE, (D), FORMER CONGRESSMAN & PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It's constructive criticism. It has already made me a better candidate. Not only will I not say that again --

(LAUGHTER) O'ROURKE: -- but I'll be much more thoughtful going forward in the way that I talk about our marriage. And also the way in which I acknowledge the truth of the criticism that I have enjoyed white privilege.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: O'Rourke pointed out his ability to walk away from two arrests as a young man without serious consequences as an example of that white privilege he referenced.

He also issued an apology for his writings as a teenager when he was a member of a group of activist hackers that included a piece of fiction written from the point of view of a killer who runs over two children with a car.

Now, those apologies aside, O'Rourke's ability to command the media oxygen in the days since announcing his run have drawn comparisons to another famous former candidate, Barack Obama.

I got reaction from President Obama's former senior adviser David Axelrod.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: When people ask, is Beto O'Rourke the next Barack Obama, what do you say?

DAVID AXELROD, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR & CNN HOST, "THE AXE FILES": I say we'll see. First of all, I think that the next Barack Obama thing is overdone. You know, there was one Barack Obama. And someone else will be who they are. But the similarity between them is that Beto O'Rourke has definitely engendered a very, very strong national following by preaching a gospel of unity and reconciliation. And that stands apart from the climate that's been created by the politics of the moment by President Trump. And he did very well in Texas. Remember, two years ago, Ana, no one had heard of Beto O'Rourke, and even in Texas. He did very well there, he didn't win, but he did better than any Democrat had in 20 years. And he raised $80 million nationally, which is no small matter, 750,000 contributors. So that gives him a foundation. And now, it's going to be up to him to prove that he is who people hope he will be.

CABRERA: Others have compared him to Trump in the way he utilizes social media and the way he is good at sort of marketing himself. In fact, when you two to his Web site, you get this: You get a site with a place to donate, have a shop section here for Spanish speakers and a page for people to apply to work for his campaign. But one thing that is really not there is anything in the way of policy.

And while in Iowa, it seemed he didn't have concrete answers for some of the issues like the Green New Deal. Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Any thoughts on the Green New Deal? O'ROURKE: The question is on the Green New Deal. And by extension,

if you don't mind, I will take the spirit of the question.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: So Beto went on to talk about the climate change and the effects, but he didn't address the actual Green New Deal. How important is it for him to have answers to these questions?

AXELROD: Well, I think, over time, it will be important. I will remind people that Barack Obama was an incomplete candidate in the early stages of his campaign. And he grew into the role over time. So there's time to do that. But the nature of the presidential process is the better you do, the greater the test, the bar gets raised, and you have to continually clear that bar as it gets raised. And that's what Beto O'Rourke is going to face.

I view this whole presidential process as a years-long audition and people want to see how you grow in the process and how you deal with different pressure, and he'll have to meet those tests if he is to get to the goal.

CABRERA: And his announcement came hand in hand with a glossy "Vanity Fair" cover shoot that got a lot of attention, in part, because there's resemblance to a couple of magazine covers from the past, the 2007 "Men's Vogue" cover, for example, which is Democrat John Edwards, which pictures him outside with a pick-up truck and his family dog. And look at this cover of Ronald Reagan from "Time" magazine in 1981. They're both wearing sort of the same denim outfit, hands in the back pockets.

And, David, what kind of message is Beto O'Rourke sending?

[15:35:18] AXELROD: Well, he is sending a message that he is not a Washington-based candidate. He doesn't speak in the idiom of Washington. The fact that he has had to contend in a state that is ideological diverse, to say the least, is an advantage to him. And will be an advantage to him as he campaigns in Iowa and other states. The disadvantage of being on the cover of "Vanity Fair" and getting all of the attention that he is getting is you get scrutinized much more closely than other candidates do, right from the start. So you don't have the same opportunity to try your material out, to develop your thinking in relative obscurity. So that's the downside of the upside that he's going to have to deal with.

CABRERA: The bigger the spotlight, the more pressure and expectations --

AXELROD: Exactly.

CABRERA: -- that come with it.

AXELROD: Exactly.

CABRERA: I have asked you before about Joe Biden's intentions but he teased us again this week. Let's watch. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I appreciate the energy you showed when I got up here. Save it a little longer. I may need it in a few weeks.

(CHEERING)

BIDEN: Be careful what you wish for.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: I don't know if that was nervous laughter at the end or not.

But how much longer can Biden keep flirting with a presidential bid?

AXELROD: Not much longer. I think he in certain ways has been wise to string this out, because the shorter the race, the better for him. He doesn't have the same demands that others have. Except for one that's going to be a challenge, perhaps for him, and that's raising money. Beto O'Rourke raised all of that money, or a lot of it online. Bernie Sanders, as we know, has a huge digital footprint when it comes to fundraising and that's why he raised $10 million the day that he announced. This is going to be important moving forward. Joe Biden is not, by generation and nature, a social media candidate. So he can't delay this much longer. He has to get around to the business of raising the resources that he needs.

CABRERA: David Axelrod, thank you, sir.

AXELROD: Good to see you, Ana.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CABRERA: And a programming note. CNN's next presidential town hall is with 2020 candidate, Senator Elizabeth Warren. Jake Tapper moderates live from Jackson, Mississippi. That is Monday night, at 9:00 eastern, right here on CNN.

Coming up this hour, Robert Mueller signals he is not done yet with two key Trump associates. Are new indictments about to drop?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:42:51] CABRERA: New signs there could be multiple ongoing criminal investigations involving President Trump or his campaign. Special Counsel Robert Mueller says he's not ready for former campaign official, Rick Gates, to be sentenced because he is helping with several ongoing investigations. Gates was Trump's 2016 deputy campaign manager, and also worked on the inaugural. Not to mention, he's a long-time business partner of Paul Manafort, who just got seven and a half years in federal prison.

On top of that, we learned information provided by Trump's former national security adviser, Michael Flynn, is also part of ongoing security probes. Joining us now, former federal prosecutor and CNN legal analyst,

Jennifer Rodgers.

Jennifer, do you think this means more indictments could be coming?

JENNIFER RODGERS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I think it certainly could. We have Rick Gates, the key to the Manafort case, that's now done. We know he is involved in the Inaugural Committee investigation, but that is only one thing. So the notion that they don't want to sentence him yet, they have been talking to him for months and months and months and they have gotten information from Rick Gates. But if they don't want to sentence him yet, it means that they need him to testify either before a grand jury or a potential trial. So I think it does mean that they're likely more charges coming.

CABRERA: And they said, check back in 60 days. So in terms of time line, that I thought, was interesting.

On the other hand, this week, we learned from Mueller's prosecuting team that one of that's prosecutors is leaving. Andrew Weissmann, he is going to be leaving. This is the guy that Steve Bannon once referred to as the Lebron James of money laundering investigations. He is also someone Team Trump has regularly attacked.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RUDY GIULIANI, PERSONAL ATTORNEY TO PRESIDENT TRUMP: Andrew Weissmann, you know who he is. He is a complete scoundrel.

Andrew Weissmann would be regarded by many defense lawyers and prosecutors as a disgrace.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: So where is Weissmann's departure -- where does that tell you where the investigation stands? Does it mean Mueller's investigation is coming closer to the end or narrowing in focus?

RODGERS: It is hard to know. Weissmann was in charge of the Manafort piece, so that is done. We know that. He was sentenced in both of his cases. So Andrew Weissmann leaving may just mean he is done with the piece that he came in and promised to do, and it's time for him to go, and that others are now picking up some of the other threads of the investigation. It is hard to tell.

[15:45:04] CABRERA: We also have more information from Michael Cohen this week, and some new e-mails that seem to be so revealing. These e-mails are between somebody who is known to Cohen and also friendly with Rudy Giuliani. It wasn't initially acting as Cohen's lawyer here but seemed to be maybe a back channel to the Trump Team, in which, it appears like there could be some kind of a pardon dangle, although they're two different stories here.

Let me just show you an example. In one of these e-mails, Robert Costello, this back channel, or some kind of avenue to Rudy Giuliani, writes, "You are loved. Sleep well tonight. You have friends in high places." He is writing this e-mail to Cohen after a conversation he said he had with Rudy Giuliani.

But a reminder, Trump tweeted last week, "Bad lawyer and fraudster, Michael Cohen, directly asked me for a pardon. I just said no."

Jennifer, just how critical is this question over who asked whom for a pardon, or offered a pardon?

RODGERS: Well, I think it is important to investigators, both in Congress and prosecutors. This back and forth about who said what and when, you know, not all of this is under oath. When Michael Cohen testified about it, he wasn't asked any specifics about what he was talking about. So it is hard at this point to make a lot of sense out of all of these kinds of contradictory threads. But there's no question that Congress is interested in this question and prosecutors are because a pardon dangled suggestion from the president could be obstruction of justice. So that's what they're looking at. And as always, they know a lot more than we know, so we're going to have to wait and see.

CABRERA: We mentioned Paul Manafort's sentence, now seven and a half years between the two judges that sentenced him last week, Judge Ellis and Judge Berman Jackson. And Manafort wants his prison sentence to be carried out in Cumberland, Maryland. And this is what we have learned about the facility. No barbed wire fences. And inmates have access to e-mail and nearly unlimited phone calls and a softball field and gym and a commissary with French cappuccino. How does this judge weigh this decision?

RODGERS: Judges often don't normally involve themselves in these decisions. I've heard judges say, you can make your request to the Bureau of Prisons and they will put you where they think you ought to go. So the judge may not take up with that at all or the judge may make a recommendation and ultimately it will be up to the Bureau of Prisons.

One thing I will say is that now we know Paul Manafort is going to be traveling to New York to face new charges.

(CROSSTALK)

CABRERA: The state charges that came down on the very day Judge Berman Jackson issued her sentence.

RODGERS: Correct. And one thing that prisoners hate is to be transported because it is not a comfortable journey. And when he gets here and is placed in a state facility, he will be wishing for that cappuccino. That is not as pleasant of a stay as he's had in federal prison. He will have a long time in New York and that will not be cushy wherever he has to go after that.

CABRERA: All right, Jennifer Rodgers, good to have you with us. Thank you.

RODGERS: Thanks, Ana.

CABRERA: A new piece of evidence found at the crash site of the doomed Ethiopian Airlines flight. What it reveals about a possible link to another air disaster.

Stay right there.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:52:31] CABRERA: A new clue today in the wake of the Ethiopian Airlines crash that killed 157 people. The "New York Times" reports there's evidence that suggests the pilots battled the plane's automated system. If true, this would represent a troubling link to another recent air disaster involving the same type of plane.

CNN's Oren Liebermann has more.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OREN LIEBERMANN, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Work here is moving forward on the black boxes from Ethiopian Airlines flight 302, the flight data recorder and the cockpit voice records. We learned from a BEA spokesman that the work is progressing. And if all goes well, it may be done by the end of the weekend. Downloading the raw data and then begins the analysis of what was happening with the pilots on board the aircraft, but also with the aircraft itself, its systems and its mechanics.

Meanwhile, according to the "New York Times," a piece of evidence found at the crash site in Ethiopia may link this crash to a Lion Air crash in October in Indonesia, which used the same 737 MAX 8 aircraft. That piece is a jack screw, and it sets the position of a stabilizer on an aircraft. It was found in a position on the crash site that would have had the stabilizer put the plane in a nose-down position. It would force the airplane to go very fast and force the airplane to dive, which right after takeoff, is very unusual and very dangerous.

The question, why would it in that position. It could be from pilot input, it could be from autopilot, it could be from the MCAT system, an automated system designed to help a pilot avoid a stall that would put an airplane in danger. It is that MCAT system that's under investigation in the Lion aircraft. If that's that same system here, that may indicate a wider problem across the 737 MAX series of aircraft and certainly a big problem for Boeing.

How would they find out if it was that system? That's the information on those black boxes, on the flight data recorder and cockpit voice recorder, which is why the work happened behind me with the BEA, French investigators is so crucial.

Oren Liebermann, CNN.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CABRERA: After losing her dad when she was 14, this week's "CNN Hero" struggled with depression into her late 20s when she finally got help. For two decades now, Mary Robinson has dedicated herself to making sure other children don't lose years of their life to unresolved grief.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED GIRL: My name is Bella and my dad died.

MARY ROBINSON, CNN HERO: Kids in grief are kids at risk.

UNIDENTIFIED BOY: (INAUDIBLE)

[15:55:04] ROBINSON: Time does not heal all wounds. Time helps but it's what you do with that time. And what you need to do is mourn.

UNIDENTIFIED GIRL: When you hear other people's stories, it brings comfort.

ROBINSON: That's why a place like imagine exists, so children can mourn their loss and find out that they're not alone.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: To meet some of the families that Mary is helping or to nominate someone you think should be a CNN hero, go to CNN heroes.com.

We'll be right back.

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[15:59:58] CABRERA: I want to welcome our viewers in the United States and around the world. I'm Ana Cabrera, in New York.