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People Of New Zealand Mourn 50 Victims Of Terror Attack, 28- Year-Old Charged With Murder After New Zealand Terror Attack, New Zealand Killer Livestreamed Massacre, Aired 6-7p ET

Aired March 16, 2019 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[18:00:00]

ANA CABRERA, CNN NEWSROOM: You are in the CNN Newsroom. I am Ana Cabrera in New York. Thank you for being here. People all around the world, especially in New Zealand this week, are shocked and deeply saddened by the deadliest act of gun violence ever there, the senseless killing of 50 innocent people. This is Christchurch in public, the nationwide mourning of the victims, men and women shot dead while attending Islamic services at two different mosques.

Police officials just a short time ago just announced the new higher death toll, again, 50 people killed. Another 50 people are wounded, some of them children as young as two years old, at least two victims still in critical condition.

Inside a courtroom this weekend, the alleged shooter now charged with murder. He is a 28-year-old Australian. Officials say he announced his intentions in a long manifesto sent to the New Zealand Prime Minister's office just minutes before his killing spree. And this is how that suspect was taken down by police in Christchurch, 36 minutes after the shots rang out in the city on Friday.

Let's go live to New Zealand with CNN International Correspondent Alexandra Field. Alexandra, tell us about this suspect believed to have killed 50 people. Was he on any radar before this happened?

ALEXANDRA FIELD, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: He wasn't. He wasn't known to police, Ana. He wasn't on any watch list. That goes for authorities in New Zealand and also in Australia, where the 28- year-old man was from. Certainly, they know his name now, so does all of Christchurch. He is the only one arrested and charged in relation to the deadly attacks that unfolded on Friday around prayer time in the middle of the afternoon at two separate mosques.

So far, he has been charged with just one count of murder, which brings with a maximum sentence of life in prison. But certainly, authorities say he will face further charges. They brought three other people into custody in the immediate aftermath of the attack there, saying that they no longer believe that any of those three people have links to this attack, so all of their focus on the one suspect right now.

At the same time though, we're being told that security does remains high in Christchurch. People are still being told to be vigilant. And particularly, we know that security is high around mosques. Police say they need to be certain that there is no remaining threat here. Ana?

CABRERA: All right. Alexandra Field, thank you for the latest on the investigation. And so with the prime suspect in custody, New Zealand remains on edge. Security has increased at religious sights and much of the focus is now on the victims and their families.

One survivor posted a message on Facebook to his friends and loved ones.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WASSEIM ALSATI, MOSQUE ATTACK SURVIVOR: Hi, guys, how are you? I'm very sorry to miss your calls and text messages. I will not be able to answer anyone of you now. I am really tired, okay, guys? Please pray for myself, for me and for daughter [ph]. Of course, we all [INAUDIBLE] feel so much better, okay?

I'm just posting this video to show you that I am fully okay. Okay, guys? It's been a pleasure to know you all, guys. Thank you for all your support and all your help that you have given me so far. God bless you all.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: The face of strength and courage. Aliya Danzeisen is the Muslim community leader and she is the lead coordinator for the Women's Organization of the Waikato Muslim Association. She is joining us now from Christchurch, New Zealand. Aliya, thank you for being here. My condolences to you, your entire community and all the people there in Christchurch. Give us a sense of how the Muslim community is coping with the aftermath of this tragedy.

ALIYA DANZEISEN, MUSLIM COMMUNITY LEADER: The Muslim community in Christchurch is surviving. We are taking a deep breath after getting the news last night of the list of the dead. And this morning, we're coordinating to begin releasing the bodies to be prepared for burial.

And so, there's been a breath this morning. People have been able to sleep a few hours. And now, we are preparing for what will be a very tough day.

CABRERA: I can imagine that. We have seen leaders and, really, people from all around the world, showing solidarity, condemning this attack and the anti-Muslim hate behind it. And yet, you have some far-right leaders who have used this as an opportunity to attack Muslims. What's your reaction to that?

DANZEISEN: Our reaction is more asking the leaders who are leading nations and are leading the communities to stand up and be the examples of what quality leadership is and to do the right thing.

[18:05:06]

And to not condone and support -- they will not support people like this, but also to put action to their words. It's good to say the right words, but it's more important to do the right thing. And when you see somebody doing something wrong, whether it's on the street, whether it's in a classroom or whether it's in your own parliament, you need to stand up and say, no, it's not acceptable. And you need to tell everybody in your community how a good person behaves because this is not what a good person does.

CABRERA: I love what you just said. It's as simple as that, standing up for what is right, treating others how you want to be treated. Given that there is anti-Muslim sentiment and attitudes out there, what do you think needs to happen? What do you want beyond people standing up against this type of thing? How do you break this?

DANZEISEN: Well, you start recognizing that Muslims are no different than any other person. We love, we care, we work, we support. And there are 1.7 billion Muslims in the world who have been working very hard for many years with little support from other communities. And you need to start with recognizing we're your neighbors, we're your doctors, we're educated, we support you. And instead of creating us into some other, we argue [ph].

And so we should treat us just like your brothers and sisters and look again at the good we have been doing and recognize, just like this person clearly had some mental problem, you know, we have been ostracized by a few in our community. And you wouldn't want that to happen here. And that's the same thing that we would ask you haven't done to us, but this has occurred.

And we are now becoming, in my opinion, what happened in the 1930s, in Europe, to the Jews, we are now that new hated community, and we shouldn't be.

CABRERA: Sorry you feel that way. Are you afraid?

DANZEISEN: No, I'm not afraid because New Zealand actually has been one of the most peaceful countries in the whole world, it's the most transparent country in the world, and ironically, the most Islamic country in the world.

In 2010, going forward, research was done on high compliant New Zealand is to Islamic values. We have been a very settled Muslim community here. And I am very safe here. And you will see people walking by me. I just came to this spot for this interview and people have been hugging me and tapping me on the shoulder, supporting me. And that's New Zealand. And I'm not afraid of New Zealand. I'm afraid of hate mongers who are in other places who are bringing that hate here.

CABRERA: Aliya Danzseisen, your voice is powerful, it's important and thank you for sharing your thoughts and your presence with us.

DANZSEISEN: [INAUDIBLE]. Thank you.

CABRERA: Thank you. Houses of worship are supposed to be scared places of reflection, of spiritual restoration where you can let your guard down. It's supposed to be peaceful, no matter what religion you are, or are not. No one really goes to a church or a synagogue or a mosque expecting to be terrorized, to see dozens of their fellow worshippers gunned down. And yet, this week, 50 people were massacred at two New Zealand mosques.

The suspect accused of executing them described as extremist and linked to a white supremacist manifesto. Dozens of people are hospitalized, including young children with gunshot wounds. I want to repeat that, young children with gunshot wounds. The Anti-Defamation League calls the shootings, quote, the latest indication that violent white supremacists pose an international terrorist threat. And extremists around the world can inspire others like never before.

Here in the U.S., the FBI says hate crimes are on the rise. Of the religious hate crimes in 2017, nearly 20 percent were anti-Muslim. Also a recent uptick in domestic terror arrest, nearly 25 in just the last three months of 2018. A senior FBI official calls it one of the highest arrest quarters in the last few years related to domestic terrorism. The FBI source adding that those domestic terror arrests include but are not limited to far-right white nationalists.

Now, terror striking a Pittsburgh late last year believed to be the deadliest attack ever on a Jewish community inside the U.S.

[18:10:01]

The suspect, a 46-year-old white man shouting anti-Semitic slurs, opening fire, killing 11 people, that was in October. Authorities say he had no criminal history.

And according to the Global Terrorism Index between 2013 and 2017, there were 113 attacks and 66 people killed by far-right groups and individuals in Western Europe and North America. In 2013, there was one death related to right wing extremism. In 2017, there were 17 deaths.

And I want to read you this. This was posted Friday by a high profile former FBI special agent by the name of Ali Soufan, who investigated events surrounding 9/11, the USS Cole attack and other international terrorism cases. Soufan says, by every metric, right wing extremism is the most serious terrorist threat facing the U.S. and the west.

President Trump clearly condemned the New Zealand mosque shootings with his Oval Office remarks and on Twitter, but the President punted when a reporter asked about white supremacist. Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REPORTER: Do you see today white nationalism as a rising threat around the world?

DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: I don't really. I think it's a small group of people that have very, very serious problems. I guess if you look at what happened in New Zealand, perhaps that's a case. I don't know enough about it yet. They are just learning about the person and the people involved. But, it's certainly a terrible thing, terrible thing. (END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: With me now, CNN National Correspondent Sara Sidner, who has reported extensively on hate in America and CNN.com Contributor Dean Obeidalah, host of SiriusXM Radio, The Dean Obeidalah Show.

Dean, we've talked a lot about hate and anti-Muslim sentiment. I'm curious to get your reaction to the President really downplaying white nationalism.

DEAN OBEIDALAH, CNN.COM OPINION CONTRIBUTOR: You know, the only thing here that he did was downplay white nationalism, that would be something else. But the fact he has ginned up hate against the Muslim community in this country during the campaign, early in the campaign, saying Muslims cheered on 9/11 in New Jersey, which even Rudy Giuliani said it was not true to saying Islam hates us, so, of course, calling for a complete ban on Muslims. And as President, he re-Tweeted U.K. anti-Muslim hate groups. So he has made our lives more difficult.

And look at his Tweets about this. He said, we stand with New Zealand, great sentiment. He didn't say, we stand with Muslims. He didn't say, I stand shoulder-to-shoulder with the Muslim community. He won't. He did not say, I denounce white supremacists terrorism. He won't, because, politically, it doesn't help him. Trump is about what helps him personally and politically. He needs white supremacists. This is a man who re-Tweeted, white supremacists, join the campaign, including one who had a Twitter handle, white genocide. This is a man who came on this network when Jake Tapper asked, will you denounce David Duke, he refused to denounce David Duke and played games.

So see an uptick that is qualified, that's subjective of white supremacist terrorism. And Donald Trump's words are playing a role and inspiring some of that. Ultimately, the person who does the act is responsible, but we don't live in a vacuum. Words matter. The words of the President matter a lot, they go around the world. So it's worse than him not condemning it, he has ginned in this country.

CABRERA: Words do matter, Sara. You have done a lot of reporting. You have talked to so many people on all sides of this topic, including white supremacists. What do they hear in the words from this president?

SARA SIDNER, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It's pretty clear. What they hear is support. Even though every now and then, the President will condemn the actions of white nationalists, neo-Nazis, white supremacists. There is always a hesitation there when you talked about both sides during the Charlottesville argument. People saw that as, look, we know he can't overtly support us, but we feel supported by some of the things he says, some of the people he re-Tweets, some of the word choice that he used, which is very similar or exactly the same as what some white nationalist and the way they put things and talking about white genocide, right? And you re-Tweet someone that has white genocide in their handle. It is a message.

And white nationalists, neo-Nazis, KKK members, they're all looking for signs because they know that being overt about it, you will get condemned. But being covert about it and trying to send signals, and that's kind of how they feel, that they have been sent a signal from the President who talks in terms of invaders when he's talking about immigrants, when he's talking about immigration, he uses the word, invaders.

What we see in this so-called manifesto, 67 times, I counted the word invade or invaders or invasion was used. This is someone whose certainly been hearing those words. And they do translate. People start using those. What happened in Pittsburgh? I was there.

I talked to those who suffered the most, people who saw their friends killed, people who had family members killed. And the word that was used by the person who did this, he used the word, invaders.

So you can see the words being used. You can see people reacting to what the President of the United States is saying. And he's not the only one, to be fair. There are other leaders.

[18:15:00]

There are other politicians who are saying some of these same kinds of things, making everyone else the other and saying, look, we are worried about our white counter parts, we're worried about white people. We are being killed, which is simply false.

CABRERA: Here is something else the President said yesterday in response to this attack specifically.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Today, I spoke with Prime Minister Ardern of New Zealand to express the sorrow of our entire nation following the monstrous terror attacks at two mosques. These sacred places of worship were turned into scenes of evil killing. You have been all seeing what went on. It's a horrible, horrible thing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: So, Dean, I wanted to play that because I know you've been very critical of this president. He does call out where these attacks happened. He called them terrorist attacks, monstrous terrorist attacks. He talked about the evil that was involved here. Did he say what he needed to say in that statement?

OBEIDALAH: I would like him to say, I stand with Muslims and I despise white supremacist terrorism. You know what, during his campaign, he said, we must say radical Islamic terrorism. If you don't say it, you can't solve it. Well, he has not said the words, white supremacist terrorism, and Donald Trump watches the news all the day. So if he's watching, I'll hope he will have the courage to Tweet, I denounce white supremacist terrorism, but he won't. And that's the political game that he plays.

And here's the truth. White supremacy isn't just academic discussion to me. They have come after me. In May 2017, I wrote an article saying, before Charlottesville, saying, Trump, call out the white supremacist terrorism because we had two incidents on our soil in the first few months of his administration. What happened, The Daily Stormer, the biggest neo-Nazis website and a website that loves this guy, fabricated Tweeting, I was involved in the bombing in Manchester, England that has just happened, wrote an article of these Tweets, and then said, confront me.

And I got death threats from Trump-loving white supremacists. And now, I'm suing them in federal court because I'm not a minority that's going to back down. This Muslim is not going to back down. No minority should back down to the white supremacists who love Donald Trump. We have to push against them any way that we can legally, of course.

CABRERA: And, Sara, as you know, the facts show, the data is there that this ideology is growing. These hate crimes, these terrorist attacks are growing. It's increasing.

SIDNER: They are growing. The President, in response to the question he was asked, whether he thought that white supremacist terrorism was a growing problem or white nationalist terrorism was a growing problem, he says, I don't think so. Look at your own statistics from your government agencies. I'm going to look at them. Here they are. This is from the Government Accountability Office. They took a look at all the attacks. And they said, look, after September 11th, September 12, 2001 to 2016, look at those numbers. Far-right extremists were responsible for 73 percent of deadly extremism.

Now, the numbers though are interesting because Islamist extremists responsible for far fewer attacks, but there were more people killed, so larger numbers of people killed. But if you were to look at the number of people killed by people who are Caucasian, who have white nationalist views, who have far-right views, who would like other everybody else but themselves by sort of white European people who look and sound like them, those numbers, 73 percent of the attacks are linked with that kind of ideology. It's dangerous. It's terrorism. I think a lot of times you hear people say, that was a hate crime. But if you really look at what's really happening with the ideology, it's terrorism. What happened in New Zealand was terrorism. And what has happened here in many instances on a smaller scale is terrorism.

CABRERA: Sara Sidner, Dean Obeidalah, thank you both for this important conversation.

As we continue to cover the investigation into the Christchurch attack, I want to take just a moment to remember the victims, the 50 people who were murdered as they gathered for Friday prayers.

This is Nain Rasheed [ph]. He was 50 years old. He had lived in New Zealand seven years and taught at a university. Both he and his 21- year-old son, Talha Rasheed [ph], were killed in this attack.

Khalid Mustafa [ph] came to New Zealand last year as a refugee from Syria. He went to the mosque Friday with his two sons, one of them just underwent a six-hour operation in the hospital.

And Jahi Dahud Nadi [ph] was born in Afghanistan, but moved to New Zealand more than 40 years ago seeking asylum. He had five children, four sons and a daughter.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:20:00]

[18:23:32] CABRERA: Of all the nauseating things that this killer did in New Zealand, this horrific massacre was broadcast, live as it happened, across the internet from a live streaming camera the shooter wore on his head. The nearly 17-minute video not only went out live but copies of it went viral, popping up all over the web as fast as service providers could take it down.

I want to talk to our Media Correspondent and Anchor of Reliable Sources, Brian Stelter, about all of this. So, Brian, what more do we know about this video, how it was streamed, who may have seen it and how it eventually was removed?

BRIAN STELTER, CNN CHIEF MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: Initially on Facebook live. That's the tool that anybody who has Facebook has. You open up your cell phone, click the live button and you can be streaming live on Facebook. In this case, this individual used that tool to stream as he was preparing to enter the mosque. And then as he entered, there was essentially a body camera type footage.

This was only seen by a small number of people live, usually people in his friends circle on the internet. But then it was shared and reposted and reposted all across the web in the hours afterwards. And this is the world's worst game of whack-a-mole. We have seen this before. Sadly, I'm afraid we'll see it again. It's the worst game of whack-a-mole because as soon as you post a video like this, I'm going to post it Facebook tries to take it down, then it gets reposted somewhere else. And it's a very difficult situation for these tech companies.

So you have to wonder why was it allowed up in the first place. Why Facebook's algorithms didn't catch this as it was happening.

CABRERA: And that's what I was going to ask, because you think about all of this. Facebook makes billions of dollars.

[18:25:01]

They say they are policing themselves. They're saying they're cracking down on sort of this -- this kind of regulation. And yet, they didn't catch a 17-minute killing spree. Why?

STELTER: That's right. And you would think that just based on the content of the video, including gunshots and gory imagery, wouldn't be algorithms have known what was going on. Well, in this case, the algorithms didn't. It wasn't until the New Zealand police contacted Facebook and said, look at this video, you've got to take this time. Then Facebook eventually took action.

Now, you could say that this might have been relatively quick by the standards of these tech companies. Sometimes YouTube and other sites leave it up for days that are troubling. Facebook has had a track record about this as well.

So you could argue this was quick by Facebook standards. But you still have to wonder, you know, on television, you're on live TV, you know, if there's something ugly happening in the world, it will be on a seven-second delay. Why isn't Facebook, in some way, incorporating some sort of system to detect this kind of violence and try to ensure people can't see it? Because the unfortunate result of Facebook not catching this in real-time live, it was then reposted and re-shared all around the world. Part of the problem, of course, it's a supply and demand problem. Millions of people seem to want to see this, and that's part of the problem.

CABRERA: Well -- and that's part of the criticism Facebook is also receiving and other social media sites, not just about how it responded or failed in this particular instance but, really, about how social media is being used to propagate other hatred.

STELTER: Right. That is the bigger story here. The best way I saw it described today was that, in the past, if some hateful person wanted to join up with others, they have to go in person to a KKK rally. Well, now, the rally comes to you. Now, you can live inside a KKK rally on the internet, 24/7. That's the real change. It's not that extremism hasn't existed before. Of course, it has. But the internet has supercharged extremism and these forms of hate.

Now, I would argue as a child of the internet, there's a thousand great things the internet has provided to our world. And, yes, there are 100 or 200 or 300 really ugly things.

And I think what people are feeling in the wake of this massacre is, what is Google, what is Facebook, what is -- what are these companies going to try to eliminate as much of the ugliness as possible while still providing all the benefits that we gain from these websites? That is the tension inside these Silicon Valley giants.

CABRERA: You have the more mainstream social media sites, like the Facebook, like the Twitter. But then there are dark, unmonitored places on the internet like 8chan that we're learning may have played a part in this massacre. No regulations, no rules, no restrictions. What more can you tell us about this?

STELTER: Yes. When you read the alleged killer's manifesto, you see a lot of references to online memes, online ideas, sometimes these are really dark jokes, the kinds of things that spread in these online communities, 4chan, 8chan. There are lots of message boards that people can log into. In some cases, just chat with friends, but in other cases, get radicalized by insane ideas that can make that person feel like they are part of a community.

Unfortunately, in this distributed world that we live in, pretty much anybody can put up a website. And yet I say unfortunately, but that's also the miracle of the internet. Again, the good --

CABRERA: And the beauty of democracy, which is the free speech that we all have. STELTER: I think this is the tension inherent in a situation like this. Sadly, we have seen live streamed murders before. We will likely see these again. What can the big companies, the big tech companies do to make sure that this is limited and this is controlled?

And then there's a broader issue about why people are seeking out these dark corners of the web in the first place. And that's an issue Facebook and Google can't solve. That's an issue for the society at large.

CABRERA: All right. Brian Stelter, as always, thank you very much. And make sure you tune in to Brian's show tomorrow morning at 11:00 Eastern here on CNN Reliable Sources.

Beto O'Rourke is the newest 2020 contender and his initials aren't the only reasons. He keeps getting compared to Barack Obama. But their differences could determine if Beto follows in Obama's footsteps to the White House. You are live in the Newsroom.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:30:00]

CABRERA: Time for teasing is up, is Joe Biden running for president or not? Here's the tease, Biden dropped on a group of firefighters on Tuesday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, FORMER UNITED STATES VICE PRESIDENT: I appreciate the energy you show when I got up here. Save it a little longer, I may need it in a few weeks.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: Biden is the featured speaker at a Delaware Democratic Party fundraiser this evening. Delaware being his home state. CNN Political Reporter Arlette Saenz is joining us now from Dover where Biden is set to speak. It looks like a full house there, Arlette. What are you hearing? Will Biden announce in his home state tonight?

ARLETTE SAENZ, POLITICAL REPORTER, CNN: Well, you can never say never with the former Vice President, but he's going to be here speaking on his home turf in just a short while as everyone wants to know the answer to that question, is he going to run in 2020, and you've heard his comments earlier in the week when he teased the firefighters, a very supportive group, say hang tight just a little bit longer. We'll see if he offers any further clues here in Delaware back in his home state.

But the current thinking right now is that the former Vice President would potentially announce his plans as soon as April. So the announcement may not be coming tonight, but we know that Joe Biden is in that final decision-making process as he gets closer and closer to a 2020 bid.

[18:35:03]

CABRERA: All right, Arlette Saenz, thank you. You will keep us posted if he makes any exciting news and we will bring that to our viewers. Now, the latest Democrat to enter the race for president is Beto O'Rourke. He's drawn comparisons to another Democrat, Barack Obama. And while there are ways that O'Rourke can claim to be like the former President, there are also a number of reasons he cannot.

And Harry Enten is CNN's Politics Senior Writer and Analyst, he's with us now. And Harry first let's stick through the ways you say they are similar starting with the ability to raise money.

HARRY ENTEN, POLITICS SENIOR WRITER AND ANALYST, CNN: I mean, look, Beto O'Rourke raised $80 million from individual contributors during his 2018 Senate bid and if you remember back to Barack Obama's presidential bid, the first sign that he was going to be a truly serious challenger to Hilary Clinton was back in the first quarter of 2007 where he basically matched her fundraising ability and then was able to out raise her the rest of the campaign. So raising money is one way in which they're very similar.

CABRERA: OK, so similarity number two, energizing young people and you have the data to back this up.

ENTEN: Yes. I mean if you look at the 2018 Senate bid of Beto O'Rourke, what you saw was he won a larger share of the pie among 18 to 44 year olds. A larger share of his vote was among them than the national average for democrats. Most Democrats nationally many more of their support was coming from those 45 and older but with Beto O'Rourke it was basically split evenly. Remember Barack Obama won that primary in 2008 because he was able to win young voters overwhelmingly despite losing overwhelmingly among older voters.

CABRERA: Similarity number three, ability to drive turnout.

ENTEN: Yes. I mean, look, Texas turnout is traditionally very, very poor. But if you look at 2018, you saw a much less of a drop-off from the presidential year versus the national average Texas saw much less of a drop-off. But if you look back at 2014 and you compare that midterm election to 2012, you actually saw, Texas saw a much larger drop-off than the national average. So O'Rourke was the mark he race in that year in 2018, so we think he's responsible for that.

And if you remember all the way back in 2008, one of the reasons pollsters got it wrong in Iowa, the 2008 Iowa caucuses was because they underestimated the turnout surge and Barack Obama was able to drive that up.

CABRERA: OK. So let's talk about how they differ now. First you point to polling position this early in the race.

ENTEN: Yes. I mean, look, if you look at the polls right now where Beto O'Rourke is, he is in fourth or fifth in Iowa and nationally. And I think if you go back to 2008, there's this idea that Barack Obama came out of nowhere but that simply put not true. Yes, he was behind Hillary Clinton in the early polls, but he was a very strong second place even when he entered at this point in the campaign he was polling about 20%. Beto O'Rourke at this point only around 5%.

CABRERA: Difference number two, having a signature issue. What do you mean?

ENTEN: Yes. What I mean by that is can someone tell me what Beto O'Rourke's signature issue is? I really can't tell. But Barack Obama back in 2008, right, yes, it was hope and change but he had meat on the bones. He was talking about the Iraq war. He was the only candidate, the only major candidate who opposed that war from the very beginning. If you look back at the exit polls, that was one of the main reasons he won. In fact without that issue, I think he would have lost that nomination fight to Hillary Clinton.

CABRERA: This one was really interesting, difference number three. Minority voter support. It was Obama's strength, but you say it may be a weakness for O'Rourke.

ENTEN: Yes. I mean if you look at Beto O'Rourke's primary performance in 2018, he performed worse than the southern counties in Texas. Those are the most counties that have the highest percentage of Hispanics in them. And if you look at his 2018 general election against Ted Cruz, the reason he came so close was he outperformed Hillary Clinton among white voters.

If you look at the exit polls that's true, if you look at where his support really came from in the counties, it was Dallas, it was Houston and he in fact - although he saw some outperformance in the Southern part of the State, it wasn't overwhelming versus, of course, Barack Obama. One of the big reasons he won that primary was because he had the overwhelming support of African-Americans.

CABRERA: Harry Enten, you always have good information on all things politics.

ENTEN: Well, I try. I spent my day at the computer typing in a spreadsheet, something comes, I get to spend some time with you on a Saturday night.

CABRERA: You're always so articulate. I wish I could just go off on stats like that off the top my head. Thank you so much.

ENTEN: Thank you, very kind.

CABRERA: All right, he took a stand once against President Trump and now Jeb Bush says Republicans ought to be given a choice arguing someone should challenge Trump in 2020. What he thinks it'll take to beat Trump? You're live in the CNN Newsroom.

[18:40:00]

More than a dozen Democrats have already thrown their hats in the ring to challenge President Trump in 2020, but in his own party can the President expect a challenger? CNN Senior Political Commentator David Axelrod talked about it with former Florida Governor and former presidential candidate Jeb Bush for a new episode of The Axe Files, watch. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVID AXELROD, SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, CNN: You spoke at Governor Hogan's inauguration in Maryland.

JEB BUSH, FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Yes, I didn't realize I was a part of his pre campaign well.

AXELROD: Well, have you talked to him about it? Have you given him advice? And if not, this is a great opportunity, what advice would you give him?

BUSH: I don't know. I don't know.

AXELROD: It seems like a suicide mission, doesn't it?

BUSH: It does seem like a pill struggle, but I loved his inaugural speech because it talked about having to make tough choices and paying the price. His dad did it. He talked about John McCain. He talked about my dad and the civility and the courage to go against the tide at the right time, that integrity really mattered. It was a beautiful --

AXELROD: Does it sound to you like a prelude to a --

BUSH: When I heard it, I started to think, "Oh, I guess I'm here." I was introducing him and I was honored to be there and I kind of got a sense that maybe this was an opening at least for him to consider it.

AXELROD: Do you think he should run?

BUSH: I think someone should run just because Republicans ought to be given a choice, but I think you're probably right based on the premise you had that he has a strong loyal base and it'd be hard to beat him. It's hard to beat a sitting President. But to have a conversation about what it is to be a conservative, I think it's important and our country needs to have competing ideologies that people - that are dynamic that focus on the world we're in and the world we're moving towards rather than revert back to the nostalgic time.

[18:45:06]

The Democrats now are proposing new ideas, some of which I think are way out there and if Republicans think they can just say that's bad and not offer a compelling alternative, that could be bad for us.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: David Axelrod is with us now. David, we just heard Jeb Bush say someone should challenge Trump in 2020.

AXELROD: Yes.

CABRERA: You called it a potential suicide mission. So do you think someone actually will? AXELROD: Well, governor Larry Hogan of Maryland was the person we

were talking about. He has openly discussed the possibility of challenging President Trump and it sounded very much like Jeb Bush was urging him forward in that race. Ana, I have been trying to get Jeb Bush to sit down with me for quite a while to reflect on his family and his campaign on where the country is and where he thinks it's going. And he was reluctant and then he changed his thinking and said, "I want to sit down."

And he clearly have things on his mind and one of them was that he believes there ought to be a contest for the Republican nomination knowing that President Trump probably would win. But as he said, airing conservative views because he said he doesn't view Trump as a conservative. He doesn't view him as an ideologue. He thinks he's self-interested.

And while Bush said that he agreed with some of the things that Trump did, he had very strong disagreements and he aired them in this discussion.

CABRERA: And I've talked to a number of Trump supporters who will say, "I don't agree with everything that he does, but I like his policies. I believe that he is doing what's best for the country in that realm." In fact, we have a lot of Trump's earliest critics up on Capitol Hill say Senator Lindsey Graham or Senator Ted Cruz who have come around and become some of his staunchest supporters. Will we ever see that from Jeb Bush?

AXELROD: Yes, Jeb, I asked him about this because I hear that a lot from Republican friends. Well, we got tax cuts, we got deregulation, we've got the Conservative judges. So if we have to put up a little incivility perhaps some skirting of the rules and the laws, that's OK.

He was very tough in response to that and offered a real admonition to those who subscribe to that theory that the price is too high to accept even for the things that he agrees with, the price is too high to accept this incivility, to accept this shredding of democratic norms. It seemed to me that was one of the things that he wanted to get off his chest.

CABRERA: Interesting. David Axelrod as always, thank you for being with us.

AXELROD: Good to be with you.

CABRERA: Don't miss The Axe Files tonight at 7:00 Eastern right here on CNN.

[18:50:00]

Parts of the Midwest are dealing with record flooding and bracing for more in the wake of the powerful Bomb Cyclone in addition to the seasonal snow melt. In Nebraska at least 37 people have had to be rescued from floodwaters and many communities across the region remain under flood warnings. The Missouri River is more than two feet above its flooding stage and continues to rise. The new four-part CNN Original Series Tricky Dick explores Richard

Nixon's rise, fall, incredible comeback and political destruction featuring never before seen footage. Here's a preview.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RICHARD NIXON, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: When I first met Kennedy was a Congressman. He was very intelligent. He was very personable. However, I sensed that he was very shy and frankly as I was. I rather thought that we were alike in that respect but we were very different in many ways.

He, of course, had all of the money he needed for personal purposes. He'd never had to fight his way up. You never had to worry about losing in a campaign or fear that he wouldn't have a job.

JOHN KENNEDY, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It is time, in short, for a new generation of leadership.

NIXON: He was one that attracted the people who wanted a young, courageous man in the presidency and yet one who is suave, smooth, and a debonair and graceful. Basically, that's the mark of royalty.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: Richard Nixon on John F. Kennedy. Make sure you don't miss the premiere of Tricky Dick. It's tomorrow at 9PM Eastern right here on CNN. That does it for me. I'm back in one hour with more today's top stories in the CNN Newsroom. Thanks for being here. Axe Files with David Axelrod is next.

[18:55:00]

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tonight on The Axe Files. Former Florida Governor Jeb Bush sizing up the Trump presidency.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUSH: My prayer is that he wakes up someday soon and realizes he's President of the United States. He has to lead for all of us.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Reflecting on his 2016 presidential run.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUSH: You know you move on, I'm out of therapy and back to my normal life.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And who he wants to see on the ballot in 2020.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUSH: I think someone should run just because Republicans ought to be given a choice.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Plus, his famous family's legacy and coping with the loss of his parents.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUSH: There was kind of a consensus that this was a bygone era. This was the end of an era.

AXELROD: I want to ask about that, yes.

BUSH: And that's wrong.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Welcome to The Axe Files.

AXELROD: Governor Bush, good to be with you here at the Biltmore Hotel, the stately Biltmore Hotel.

BUSH: Thanks for coming down.

AXELROD: ... storied history. Great to come down. So it's that season again, everybody is lining up to run for president. Any PTSD.

BUSH: Yes. I mean it's deja vu all over again. If you're a political junkie, I guess it's kind of fun to watch.

[19:00:02]

AXELROD: Not so much if you're a candidate.

BUSH: No, if you're a candidate, it's a little bit harder.

AXELROD: What advice you have for them?