Return to Transcripts main page


Manhunt Underway After Netherlands Shooting; Police Say Terrorism Is A Possible Motive in Utrecht Shooting; UK Speaker of Parliament Says Government Cannot Resubmit Same Brexit Deal for Third Vote; Interview with MP Bob Seely, Conservative Party, Isle of Wight, UK; Facebook In the Spotlight Over Live Streamed Video. Aired 1-2p ET

Aired March 18, 2019 - 13:00   ET


[13:00:00] HALA GORANI, CNN HOST: Live from CNN I'm Hala Gorani.

Tonight, Police in the Netherlands are searching for a gunman who killed three people on a busy tram. He still on the loose. We are live at the

scene. Also, this hour, a potentially huge move on Brexit, Parliament Speaker says Theresa May cannot bring her Brexit deal back to a Parliament

vote for a third time unless she changes it significantly. In New Zealand, the Prime Minister says her cabinet has decided in principle to tighten gun

laws as the country continues to grieve for those killed in Friday's terror attack.

We begin with a developing story, a mass shooting in the Netherlands. A gunman opened fire on a tram in Utrecht killing three and wounding five

others. An urgent search is now under way for the suspected attacker. You see him here, police identified him as 37-year-old man born in Turkey.

Security is ramped up as officials are not ruling out terrorism as a possibility. The Dutch Prime Minister says the nation's resolve is strong.



MARK RUTTE, PRIME MINISTER, NETHERLANDS: This was an act of terror, that is, an attack to our society. An attack on our tolerant and open society.

If indeed this is an act of terror, there's only one response possible and that is as follows that our states, our democracy we are stronger than

fanatics and violence. We will not stop to fight intolerance, never.


GORANI: Richard Quest is at the scene of the attack and joins me now with the latest. What more do we know about this suspect still on the loose,


RICHARD QUEST, CNN HOST OF QUEST MEANS BUSINESS: He comes from Turkey but there are numerous rumors, suggestions that people are saying here is this

may not be a terror attack as the Prime Minister has suggested. It might have a domestic element to it that may be the shooter actually was aiming

for somebody, possibly, one of his relatives on the tram. The reports said that he seemed to be shooting at one particular woman. This is just one

part of the story. One person we spoke to recognized the man. Now the media is starting to take into the sight that it's not terror related but

has a more domestic to it. We Jaime want to show a scene. In the past few hours there have been

barriers in the tarpaulin shielding the tram from the public. That has now been taken away which suggests the bodies of those shot and killed which

are behind the tram have now been removed. One important point, the 37- year-old has not been apprehended. The only thing we know is police activity was seen in another district but with no further details about

that at the moment.

GORANI: Richard Quest live with the latest on that. Let's get some more insight.

CNN terrorism analyst Paul Cruickshank joins me now from New York with more, Richard was talking about the notion this is not terror related. It

doesn't appear he said anything that is usually said before some of these attacks. The suspect is Turkish in this case. What does this tell you

about what this might be? What might be behind these murders?

PAUL CRUICKSHANK, CNN TERRORISM ANALYST: That's right. We have no information about the motive. Dutch authorities have said their working

assumption was terrorism but it may have been early on. At this time, we have no evidence that this was a terrorist attack. The threat was in the

Netherlands and ongoing concern about potential far right terror as well.

[13:05:00] The Netherlands has been in the crosshairs of ISIS plotting in the past. There's a couple of significant plots that were broken up last

year in the Netherlands. There's also a stabbing at the train station this Amsterdam. Two Americans were visiting in a jihadi terrorist attack.

Nothing pointing this to be of that type of attack.

GORANI: The suspect is reported to have, these are reports, issues with law enforcement. This wouldn't be unusual, if it were terror related. If

it's not, as well, it would fit into this pattern this individual was engaged in for several years. He was charged for shooting at a building

and assault on a woman as well. You have a personality here, a character, an individual who has had issues with the law in the past. I imagine at

this point law enforcement has a clear picture of who he is.

CRUICKSHANK: They will have a better picture of who used to pay have information in their files about him that has indeed been a nexus between

criminality and terrorism in Europe and other parts of the world where people who have been convicted of crimes have got involved in terrorist attacks. We saw that with the

Paris and Brussels attacks and criminals can have the sort of skills that can make them very useful to terrorist enterprises. At this stage, we

really do not know whether this was a terrorist attack at all. I think we would have to be very cautious until we find out more information.

GORANI: Certainly. We're awaiting a news conference any minute now. We'll go to that live when it happens and hopefully it will give us more

information on the suspect. Thanks very much.

With just 11 days to go, the U.K. is supposed to leave the EU. Theresa May has seen her plan thrown into chaos again. She has been told she can't

hold another vote on her Brexit deal if it isn't changed significantly. He is expected to try for a third time to get the deal passed. The Speaker of

House said it must be different than the one that was rejected resoundingly by lawmakers.


STEPHEN BERCOW, SPEAKER OF PARLIAMENT, UK: If the government wishes to bring forward a new proposition that is neither the same nor substantially

the same as that disposed of by the House on the 12th of March, this would be entirely in order. What the government cannot legitimately do is to

resubmit to the House the same proposition or substantially the same proposition as that of last week which was rejected by 149 votes.


GORANI: All right. This is significant, why?

BIANCA NOBILO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: This is significant because it means that the government might be thwarted in their strategy to return the Prime

Minister's deal for a third time as things were looking a little bit better.

There was some positive mood from the DUP and Brexiteers that weren't budging before hand. From big figures like Lord Lamont and Lord Trimble,

the deal is getting more support. Now that it's said, it means it has to be something materially different about her deal when she puts it forward.

The same proposition cannot be brought forward twice in one Parliamentary session. It does thwart the government because they need to change what

they are proposing. The second time Jeffrey Cox had those additional documents that flushed out the obligation of the EU and the U.K. and gave

further legal reassurances. There's a big gray area of what would qualify as that level of change. Does it need to be a legal opinion or does it

need to be black and white changes in the documents.

[13:10:00] GORANI: What happens next? The Prime Minister goes to Brussels and tries to negotiate something or get a concession from EU leaders and

goes back to London and tries to get her deal through a third time something that can be called a significant change?

NOBILO: The biggest problem in doing that is who she needs is who she needs to win over in order to give her deal the best chance in passing,

that is, as we know the DUP, famously referred to in Parliament as the tail that wags the dog. The backbench Brexiteers that would probably follow the

DUP and they require the kind of changes to the withdrawal agreement or the backstop that the EU said they are unwilling to give. What does the Prime

Minister do now? If there's a chance, I suppose, they go back and try to obtain further legal reassurances because there's suggestions that those

Brexiters and members of the DUP are very close to supporting the deal in its current form. It does throw a spanner in the works. Things were

looking better. The intervention is timely. I have been speaking to lawmakers in the House of Commons over the last couple of days, and at the

end of last week. There was real concern the people were already talking about a meaningful vote for, and they said this just isn't legitimate. You

can't keep returning the same piece of legislation and hoping by sheer repetition to bend the will of the House in order to pass your government


GORANI: If she doesn't go, either way. If she doesn't come back with changes deemed significant or satisfying to those hard line Brexiters in

the past, then we're really looking at the march 29th at a time date as potentially a very, very significant one where this country would exit

without an agreement.

NOBILO: Yes, to what you just said. It's crazy to think about when you think about the other part of the equation. The government's motion about

the extension said either the Parliament passes the Prime Minister's deal. That is looking less likely given this intervention today or she doesn't

manage to get the deal through. It makes both of those more extreme options more likely. Either there's a no deal or they agreed to longer

transition period in which time Parliament comes to another decision about how to move forward.

GORANI: All right. Thanks very much. A very fantastic development in the Brexit story. Hopefully we'll be speaking to a Conservative MP in a bit

and there's a news conference with updates in Utrecht. Let's listen in.

JAN VAN ZANEN, UTRECHT MAYOR, NETHERLANDS: Innocent people were on their way to school, work or somewhere else and all of a sudden, they were being

shot at. That this day was going to turn out so very differently from what they have expected is a big shock. In the city, outside of our city and

the rest of the Netherlands but also abroad, this has been a shock. The response to this horrible violence we come together as community and we

hold those who are sad for their losses. I would like to give my condolences to the victims, the relatives of those victims and all those

people who were there this morning. I have a lot of appreciation as well for the people of the emergency service who is reacted immediately and on o

large scale and they did what was their job. At the moment we have three casualties. There are five people injured and three of those injured are

still in the hospital in serious circumstances and the situation has not been concluded. We do not have clarity yet. I want to say that to you

immediately also here with the chief of police and the chief of the operational services.

[13:15:00] We have not found the suspect yet. We are doing everything to catch the suspect. That now has our priority. We need to look after those

injured. We have to support the relatives of those that died. And we have to continue investigating this incident.

We do not know what the motive of the shooting was. At the moment that is still part of the investigation. The NCTV has just mentioned that the

highest threat level, namely level 5, will be upheld until 10 PM for the entire province of Utrecht. That doesn't say anything about the measures.

It's only to deal with alert levels.

So, we assume that public transport will resume its services or has already resumed its services. Those people who require help, those people who have

questions, people were concerned about what has happened can call victim support Netherlands. The number has opened it is 0-900-0101. That's the

national number.

I would now like to give the floor to the head for the operations of police in the middle of the Netherlands, Rob, I give you the floor.

GORANI: There's an update from the mayor of Utrecht confirming three deaths. We have been reporting that number over the last several hours.

Five people injured as a result of this shooting. Three still in the hospital. They have not found the suspect yet who has been named and

identified as a man born in Turkey and they don't know the motive. The mayor saying that the highest threat, level 5, is being upheld until 10 PM

local time in Utrecht. We'll have more on this story as it develops for you.

A quick word on what's been happening with Brexit and really a big blow to the Prime Minister. She was hoping it was reported to bring her Brexit

deal back to Parliament. Hoping those ultraconservative MPs would vote for it because they would be concerned if they didn't, there would be no deal

and then there would be a much longer delay to the whole Brexit process. That's not going to happen because Speaker of the House said unless there's

significant changes in the Brexit deal, you cannot vote on it a third time. Conservative MP joins me. What is your reaction to what the Speaker of the

House has said that the Prime Minister has to make some significant changes to that agreement if she wants MPs to vote on it again?

MP BOB SEELY; CONSERVATIVE PARTY, ISLE OF WIGHT, UK: Yes. I think Americans call this a curve ball of significant proportions. I'm not sure

if it scuppers a third vote. But it means people are going to have to go back to something called Erskine May which is a how-to guide of the British


And what we are going to have to be looking at is do we get amendments to a motion? How can we get this through if the government can't get this

through? Can it be done as an amendment? Can we have a vote on the legal advice? And if we can pass and support the legal advice, does that change

the options. We could also end this Parliament and start a new Parliament and do that as an emergency.

GORANI: Could the Prime Minister go to Brussels again this week? There is a big summit. And say, give me something, anything that I can go back


SEELY: I can't hear you.

GORANI: Is the Prime Minister intending to go to Brussels this week to try to ask EU leaders for something, anything that can make significant changes

to this deal?

SEELY: I believe, the European Union said they are not willing to make significant changes. That's why I'm wondering if we will vote on the

withdrawal agreement. We could vote on the legal advice and put the withdrawal deal as an amendment to the legal advice. The government wants

to get it through and wants a meaningful vote in some way. They'll have to be very creative about how they do it.

GORANI: What will the timeline be? You're 11 days away from March 29th.

SEELY: It seems to me that the two groups of people that are happy, is that some of my hard Brexiter colleagues are happy because they think that

means they a no deal Brexit. A lot of Remainers are happy because they will get a significant extension. They both can't be right. Either we are

going to go out on the end of March without the deal. Or we going to be in the European Union for at least another three, six months potentially two

years. Somebody will win big.

[13:20:00] GORANI: Who will that be? Parliament has been very clear. They don't a no deal. If the Prime Minister can't get this agreement

through, she really has no other choice but to ask for a long extension, right?

SEELY: She has the choice of doing nothing until the 28th, 29th of March and then we leave despite what Parliament votes in non-binding motions. It

doesn't matter what Parliament is voting for if they are not binding. So, the government can actually just sit on its hands for the next 10 or 15

days and we are out if they can play a game of political chicken with remainers in the party.

GORANI: Why would that do that? This is the will of Parliament in the same way that the referendum was an advisory referendum that expressed the

will of the people. Why is one result worthy of being followed and the other not?

SEELY: That's not correct.

GORANI: That is correct.

SEELY: That's not correct.

GORANI: What part is not correct?

SEELY: It is not politically correct let me explain why. When you say it was an advisory referendum.

GORANI: Was it legally binding?

SEELY: We have said -- we said we would respect the result. Whether it was advisory or not, the Conservative Party, Labour Party, the Liberal

Democrats all said we would hold a once in a generation vote and that we would respect to the result.


SEELY: Legally, you may be correct. That's not the point. All the parties said they would respect it and in the last election, the

Conservative Party and the Labour Party said they would continue to vote to pull Britain out of European Union and the overwhelming majority of members

of Parliament at the time, Conservative and Labour, voted for article 50.

GORANI: I understand all that. I get that but the Parliament has voted clearly against no deal.

SEELY: I see what you're saying.

GORANI: You can't pick and choose which democratic process you choose to respect.

SEELY: Sorry. I disagree with the spin you're putting on it. Parliament -- the recent motions and amendments are clearly non-binding but the

political party said collectively that they would honor the results of referendum. Technically what you're saying is correct but politically we

gave a pledge to the British people we would obey the mandate.

What you are now saying and it is an interesting argument is you're saying the House of Commons now outweighs or the will of the Commons outweighs the

will of the British people.

GORANI: That's not what I'm saying.

SEELY: Hold on. We said we would respect the will of the people. We need to do the will of people. We're not. We're refusing to do so. Because we

have Remain in Parliament. That's our basic problem and it's got lot more complicated this afternoon because Speaker Bercow came out with a decision

which either is going to help out the hard-line Brexiters or it is going to help the Remainers. It's not helping the government.

GORANI: One last question. You're saying now the government will have to be creative. Is your hope that will find a way to get Parliament open this

deal, and if they do, how to they make up 149 vote deficit which is the margin by which the last deal was defeated?

SEELY: They make up a 149-vote deficit by bringing in the DUP and getting them on side. Once you get the DUP the game has changed.

GORANI: All right. Thanks so much. Conservative member of Parliament. Appreciate you being on the program this evening.

We are going to take a break. When we come back New Zealand's Prime Minister has announced her cabinet ministers have agreed to reform gun laws

after a terrorist attack that shocked the nation. In fact, we're going to cover this story now. A shooter killed 50 people and wounded others on

Friday. Now the people of New Zealand face the difficult process of healing. Here is a look from the ground, Ivan Watson.


IVAN WATSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: A hymn for healing. Harmonies performed to honor the 50, men, women and children killed last

Friday in the deadliest terror attack in New Zealand's history. A declaration, this is not who we are. The Prime Minister promised details

of new gun laws within ten days and a broader investigation into the background of the alleged attacker, 28-year-old Brenton Tarrant.

[14:25:00] JACINDA ARDERN, PRIME MINISTER, NEW ZEALAND: The purpose is to look at what all relevant agencies knew or could or should have known about

the individual and his activities including his access to weapons and whether they could have been in a position to prevent the attack.

WATSON: It's known that Tarrant bought several guns at this store near Christchurch.

DAVID TIPPLE, GUN CITY STORE OWNER: I informed the police that Gun City sold to the gunman four A category firearms and ammunition. All Gun City

sales to this individual followed a police verified online mail order process.

WATSON: New Zealand's top police officer saying, it is believed the alleged attacker did not have help.

COMMANDER MIKE BUSH, NEW ZEALAND POLICE: I want to state we believe there was only one attacker responsible for this horrendous event. There were

two scenes as you know. Again, I would like to stay we believe there's only one attacker responsible.

WATSON: In Tarrant's native Australia, police searched a family home and his grandmother spoke of their shock.

GRANDMOTHER OF TERROR SUSPECT, TARRANT: We are all gob smacked, we don't know what to think, the video is saying he planned it for a long time. So,

he is obviously not of sound mind. I don't think.

WATSON: Authorities are still struggling to cope with the scale of the violence. It's taken days to begin returning bodies of the victim to their

anguished families. Christchurch Hospital postponed other scheduled surgeries to focus on keeping critically wounded victims alive. Police say

this is the biggest investigation they ever mounted.


GORANI: As horrific details of Friday's attack continue to emerge, so do details of how technology firms responded to the attacker's move to live

streaming video of the massacre. Facebook again in the spotlight because it did not catch the video on its platform before being notified by the


Meanwhile YouTube says it's working around the clock to remove content relating to the attack. Samuel Burke is here.

If I searched for that video, would I find it?

SAMUEL BURKE, CNN MONEY BUSINESS AND TECHNOLOGY CORRESPONDENT: You would find it. I have been looking and especially with misspellings you can find

it. That's the way the dark web makes it onto the web that the rest of us use.

It's interesting because Facebook released new information that I think was supposed to portray them in a positive light but if I put it up on the

screens, I think they will see through it. Facebook now admits they didn't notice the video until the New Zealand's police alerted them. It was live

for 17 minutes. That shows whatever controls they have in place aren't working for policing live videos.

If you look at this number on the surface you might say it looks good. Facebook blocks 1.2 million of the 1.5 attempts to up load in first 24

hours. They couldn't get on the site. 1.5, subtract 1.2 million is 300,000. You and I both know you just have to have a video up one time on

YouTube to get tens of millions of views. Imagine a video that makes it up 300,000 instances.

GORANI: And were they taken down, the 300,000?

BURKE: Facebook would say they were taken down in 24 hours but you and I both know that 24 hours on social media is an eternity.

GORANI: It depends how many times it was shared.

BURKE: Exactly. Facebook will release those numbers. What supposed to make it look like they have control, it shows a social

network with a video on it out of control.

But I also think what does this say about us humans. I said on your show late last week don't share or even watch this video because you're

contributing to it because the algorithm can see if you watching it, they want show it to others. 1.5 million times people attempted either

successfully or unsuccessfully to upload this video.

What does that say about us if we're doing that on these social platforms that have major issues?

GORANI: Doesn't say great things about us.

BURKE: It does not.

GORANI: We have to go. One of our cameraman colleagues saw an Instagram, recorded to Instagram, there was an uploaded version of that body cam video

and sent him a reply saying it's not breaking community rules. It's automated but it's not something a human being is on the other end. It's

not even when you report it, it's not always taken down. Thanks very much.

[13:30:00] Still to come, CNN gives you an exclusive look inside a plot to assassinate one country's leader. The story of the deadly drone is coming



[13:30:43] HALA GORANI, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST: And let's return to the political chaos once again engulfing the U.K. government. The British

prime minister has been told she cannot bring the same exact Brexit deal that was rejected last week back to parliament.

And with just 11 days to go until the U.K. leaves the E.U., this latest news is thrown Theresa May's plans into disarray again.

Jack Blanchard is the editor of POLITICOS's London's Playbook, and he joins me now.

So, what does this mean for her, for Theresa May and her deal that she so desperately trying to get through?

JACK BLANCHARD, EDITOR OF LONDON PLAYBOOK, POLITICO: Well, I mean, she's got yet another headaches to deal with, which is the last thing that she

needed right now.

Today was supposed to be all about Theresa May trying to win over those last few rebels in her party and her DUP allies to try and back this deal

and a new vote tomorrow.

And out of blue, out of nowhere, the speaker of the House of Commons stands up and announces that he's not going to allow that vote to take place

because the deal has not changed. And this is a huge problem for the prime minister. Because her whole plan was that she could keep bringing this

deal back.

GORANI: So, is it dead? Is the deal dead?

BLANCHARD: So reducing the number of rebels each time. Is it dead? As it stands, it's not going through. She's going to have to change it if she

wants to get it through. That is the fundamental of what the speaker had stated.

The problem is the standing there with their arms folded saying, there's no more negotiations to be done. So she's going to have to have a

long hard think about how she might be able to tweak this deal in order to let it -- even to get the chance of putting it back to parliament again.

GORANI: Standby with me for just one moment because I'm hearing on a completely different story that the shooting suspect in Utrecht has been

arrested. We understand from authorities there. We're going to get more on this as details become available.

But this was a man born in Turkey, 37 years old, whose CCTV still was circulated widely and who killed three people, police believe, injured five

others. Three of whom are still in the hospital.

No motive yet though, according to the mayor of Utrecht for what ended in the deaths of three people. So we'll bring you more on that in just a

little bit. We're going to continue our conversation here with Jack.

So I just want to update our viewers on that.

Jack, a couple more questions on what to expect next or even just this week. Will the prime minister go to Brussels?

BLANCHARD: She's definitely going to go to Brussels. She has to go to Brussels because she has to agree an extension to Article 50. She doesn't

do that. Britain's leaving the E.U. next week without a deal, so that is the number one priority now. And that is happening come what may.

GORANI: But she has to know what type of extension to negotiate whether it's short or long. It's short if she gets her deal through. It's longer

if she doesn't. But she won't know that until next week. So what is she negotiating this week?

BLANCHARD: Well, I think we can safely say now that the deal is not going through before this week's summit. Therefore, if we take the prime

minister at her word, which is not always the right thing to do, but if we take her at her word, she will be asking for a long extension on Thursday.

Because the way she puts it, that's -- she has no other choice now. The deal is not going to be voted on before Thursday.

GORANI: And the E.U. might say no.

BLANCHARD: Well, I think that the reality is that the E.U. will hold the aces now. They are in a position where they can sit back and fold their

arms and say, you want the extension? These are our terms. Because they know Britain really has no choice. It's not ready for a no-deal Brexit.

GORANI: What would their terms be?

BLANCHARD: Well, that's what we're still waiting to find out. But the expectation is of a long extension period. And some sort of stipulation

that Britain comes back with a new idea because it doesn't look like this deal is going anywhere at the moment.

[13:35:03] The speaker of the Commons won't even allow it to vote on it again. So she's going to have to come up with something else.

GORANI: But what does it do to the country's political -- this weekend, I had dinner with someone who runs a hedge fund. And he said I'm picking up

and I'm moving my headquarters to mainland Europe. And he said it's not even because of Brexit. It's because no parliamentary business, apart from

Brexit is addressed.

And there is legislation that needs to be looked at, that needs to be reworded, there was some mistake, he said, in a bill. It stayed in the

books because M.P.'s didn't have the political energy to address the mistake.

It's real problem for the U.K. to be so consumed with this every day.

BLANCHARD: Absolutely. And this has been the case for years now, let's not forget, really since the vote in 2016. Britain has talked about very

little else. And civil servants have been doing very little else.

All the departments, it's not just the politicians. All the government departments are pouring their resources into dealing with different aspects

of how we're going to leave the E.U. different ways of what would happen if we left with a no-deal.

And so it leaves -- it leaves very little capacity for anything else. And the issue is I'm afraid that this is just going to continue. It's is not

going to be resolved this week or next week. This is going to carry on for months and years.

GORANI: Unless she gets the deal through.

BLACNCHARD: But at the moment, it just doesn't look like -- I mean, he's doing that --

GORANI: Because if she does, then we can move on, right? She said hopefully.

BLANCHARD: I'm afraid that when or if she gets the deal through, we can move on to the next stage of the Brexit negotiations which is a huge

important trade deal with the E.U. which will be much harder to negotiate than the relatively small bit that we've been dealing with so far.

GORANI: It's interesting the problem -- as I was talking to this gentleman this weekend, I found it interesting that the most damaging aspect of

Brexit isn't been the Brexit itself. It's just how long it's taking the deal with Brexit.

BLANCHARD: Certainly damaging to my mental health. And the type of analysis that we took every day.

GORANI: All right. I'll see you next week. Jack Blanchard, the editor of POLITICO's London Playbook. Appreciate it. Thank you for coming in.

Sorry, zigzagging here a little bit because I just want to remind our viewers that our breaking news just in the last few minutes is that Dutch

authorities have arrested a man they believe is responsible for a shooting that killed three, injured five. Three of whom are in critical condition.

Now, we'll bring you more updates and developments on this Dutch tram shooting suspect arrest when we get it.

Let's return now to New Zealand's. A nation in mourning after Friday's terrorist attacks in Christchurch. We're learning about the victims. Many

of whom came to New Zealand and search of a better life.

One of the story's we've heard is that of a 25-year-old Indian woman whose dream was to live and work in New Zealand with her new husband.

Alexandra Field has more.


ALEXANDRA FIELD, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): They were newlyweds from India who decided to call New Zealand home. Ansi Alibava

and Abdul Nazer.

It was her dream so he shared it with her, until it was cut short.

"No one would expect something like this would happen here," he says.

On Friday at Al Noor mosque in Christchurch, Ansi sat with the women, Abdul was with the men.

ABDUL NAZER, WIFE KILLED IN TERROR ATTACK: Then one person broke on the glass, then I ran away.

FIELD: When the gunfire stopped, he says. "She was dead." "I saw her lying on the road." Ansi had run from the mosque in her socks.

NAZER: She loves to travel. "Reading, watching English movies."

FIELD: A few weeks ago Ansi finished her courses here at Lincoln University where a vigil was held for those killed in Friday's attack.

With a masters in agricultural business management, she hoped to get a good job so they could support their struggling families in India.

Abdul stock shelves. Ansi worked part-time while completing her degree.

TALIA AO, CLASSMATE OF SHOOTING VICTIM: She was my best friend. She was a very lively person. And she really loves her husband and her husband

really loves her. It was an arranged marriage. So I can see them really discovering each other and they really like each other. I can see the love

that they have.

FIELD: The 25-year-old is one of at least five Indian nationals killed in New Zealand's largest mass shooting. Abdul is staying with friends while

he waits to be able to take her body back to India.

RENJU GEORGE, FRIEND OF SHOOTING VICTIM: They used to live at my house when they first came to New Zealand. So he didn't want to sleep in the

room where they were sleeping before. He keeps crying in the night. He keep waking up every two, three minutes and just looking for her up.

FIELD: On top of his grief, Abdul has heavy burdens. Ansi took out tens of thousands of dollars in loans to fund her education. A Givealittle page

online now aims to help him pay down her debt.

It was her student visa that allowed them to come to New Zealand. But he hopes to be able to stay where he says their memories are. To live the

life they planned to hold on to the dreams they shared.

Alexandra Field, CNN, Christchurch.


[13:40:03] GORANI: Police are hurrying to identify all of the victims from Friday's attack. Families have been waiting for days to bury their loved


Martin Savidge joins us now from Christchurch, New Zealand. What's the very latest there on this identification process, Martin?

MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You know, this is a very difficult time, Hala, when you have, of course, an investigation and bodies are

looked upon as evidence in that investigation, but running on against both the religious tradition and, of course, the heartbreak of the families.

The New Zealand government says that it's doing everything they can to expedite. It has begun releasing some of the bodies. They hope by

Wednesday to have that complete and done.

As far as the investigation, authorities maintain there was only one gunman and that gunman is in custody. But what they want to know now is did that

gunman have any kind of support from anyone. Financial or logistics. We know that Australian authorities searched two homes with search warrants.

It's believed to be family members of the man in custody who's from Australia. We do not know what, if anything, was found.

Also, the United States says that the FBI is now part of this investigation. There are a number of international law enforcement

agencies involved. But the FBI is interesting, one, they have a long and unfortunately tragic history of looking into race motivated mass killings

in the United States so they've got experience. But could there be a dual nationality among the victims? Someone who may be American as well.

And then on top of that, could it also imply some connection to the United States and hate groups there? We don't know. Authorities aren't saying.

And one last thing that New Zealand is about to grapple with on top of everything else.

Today, it's been announced that the gunman in this case, the suspected gunman has fired his court appointed attorney and plans to represent

himself. You can see where this is going. That he will take the hatred that was first fired and began murdering in a mosque and moved it to the

drama of a courtroom and how will New Zealand's and a public as a whole deal with that? They are struggling with a great deal in this country

today. Hala.

GORANI: It wouldn't be the first time we saw someone with that type of personality want to represent himself. Thanks very much. Martin Savidge

live in Christchurch.

Lots more still to come. We'll be right back.


GORANI: Dutch police have arrested the man suspected of a tram shooting in the city of Utrecht earlier today. The attack killed three people and

wounded five others. Three of the injured remain in a serious condition in hospital. We'll bring you more details on the arrest as they emerge.

U.S. President Donald Trump is tweeting about the massacre today, but not about the victims or the dangers of Islamophobia. He's accusing the media

of working overtime to blame him for the attacks in Christchurch. Adding, they will have to work very hard to prove that one.

This was his first tweet on New Zealand's since Friday. But over the weekend, we saw an avalanche of fiery tweets. Trump went on a tirades

about, well, just about -- really just about everything.

[13:45:08] Let's talk more about this. We're joined by chief media correspondent Brian Stelter. So this -- even by the standards of Donald

Trump was quite the tweet storm over the last several days. What was behind it? Do we know?

BRIAN STELTER, CNN CHIEF MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: Yes. Voluminous and venomous. That's what it was. This is especially ugly. The president

attacking everyone from the late Senator John McCain. To even some news anchors on Fox News.

And I think what always happens in this case, Hala, people wonder, is the president worried something is about to happen? Is he expecting some bad

news from Robert Mueller or someone else? It's always impossible to know for sure.

But I think what we are seeing in this case is the president watching a lot of TV, watching a lot of Fox, getting angry about all the topics and then

expressing all of that.

I think he is concerned about losing, as always, some core support, not just from his literal voting base, but also from his television base on Fox

News. That's why he's defending some of Fox News' right-wing hosts and criticizing its news anchors. All part of an effort to shore up his

shelters from the storm as multiple storms rage around him with various controversies and scandals. And, of course, the looming possibly imminent,

Robert Mueller report.

GORANI: Yes. And regarding Christchurch, I mean, he's had some interesting tweets about Christchurch. What do we make of what he's chosen

to say about this horrendous massacre targeting Muslims?

STELTER: Yes. Sometimes what's noticeable is what he's not saying. He's not talking directly about the Muslim community that is in mourning right


But he is saying the media is trying to blame him for the massacre. Now, responsible members of the media are not blaming President Trump for the

actions of a man in New Zealand.

However, I think there are important conversations to be had about the tone that is set by leaders all around the world. We are seeing a rise in

global white supremacy terrorism. Even though the president says he does not think white nationalism as a growing problem in the U.S., his own

government has the data that proves it is a growing problem.

And it is worse talking about the tone that is set by world leaders including President Trump and his anti-immigrant messages. That's not the

same as blaming him for the actions of a madman.

GORANI: And regarding the speculation that when he goes on these tweetstorms, it's because he wants to deflect from other issues. And we've

been saying over the last few weeks that this Mueller report should be published very soon. Do we have any clarity on when --


GORANI: Yes. Do we have any clarity on when that could be?

STELTER: I think there's growing frustration both among folks who want to see what Mueller has found and among Trump supporters who want this to be

put to bed. Growing frustration that the Mueller has not delivered this expected report.

The reason why it seemed imminent is because some members of Mueller's team are starting to leave the special counsel's office. Some DOJ officials

have been preparing for this for weeks now. So it's a situation where we think it's happening any day now, but the only people to know for sure are

the ones that are not talking.

You do wonder though when the president is raging on Twitter, if he's actually concerned about what's going on with that investigation.

GORANI: Brian Stelter, always a pleasure. Happy Monday. Thanks very much.

STELTER: Thanks.

GORANI: Still to come tonight, a secret plot to assassinate the president of Venezuela using a drone. CNN has exclusive pictures of the preparations

when we come back.


[13:50:01] GORANI: The dangers and volatile standoff between Venezuela sitting president, Nicolas Maduro, and opposition groups nearly did not

happen. That is because Mr. Maduro was targeted in a drone attack last August. You might remember.

CNN was given video of Venezuelan army defectors preparing for that attack. The plot ultimately failed, but it could have killed dozens of civilians.

Nick Paton Walsh has this exclusive report from neighboring Colombia.

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): They thought it was fireworks first, but it was a drone bomb. Brazen

assassination attempt against Venezuelan president, Nicolas Maduro.

The first bid to kill a world leader with commercial drone technology bought online, it could have killed everyone on the stage or dozens of

civilians nearby if it missed.

The crowd scattered and Venezuelans began to wonder what really happened. Was it a fake?

Even now, the opposition leader Juan Guaido told CNN he condemned the attack and thinks Maduro staged it to get sympathy.

"It ends up making them look like victims," he said. "I think this was something internal done by the government and so definitely no such options

are not good."

CNN has tracked down one of the apparent organizers of the attack who supplied these videos seen here for the first time to prove his role in

what he claims was a genuine assassination attempt.

WALSH (on-camera): Why did you plot to kill Nicolas Maduro? It's a peaceful protest movement. Why did you think an assassination plot was


UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): We have tried every peaceful and democratic way to bring an end to this tyranny that dresses itself as

democracy. We have friends who are in custody, tortured. This was a hard decision.

WALSH: Were you not worried about potentially killing innocent people flying a drone with that much explosive straight at a crowd?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): That was the risk we had to take. We cared about that. As the Venezuelan people are always the ones feeling

the consequences.

WALSH (voice-over): The drones they say were purchased online in the United States and brought over six months ago to this rented farmhouse

somewhere in Colombia.

We aren't showing you the details of how they say they made the bomb here, but they blew one up in a test and in the remote countryside they practiced

the tricky bit.

Flying the drones high enough to not be seen and then down at a steep and fast enough angle to hit their target. A garden tent here.

They even tried it at night in case that's when their chance to strike comes.

Later, they say they dismantled the device to sneak it into Venezuela. Their videos show it being reassembled and then ready hours before the


A presentation days after the attack by Venezuela's interior minister confirms part of the attacker's story including the path of the drones

which both detonated prematurely.

The cell signal blockers that protect Maduro from attack have been switched off, the organizers said, but suddenly came back on thwarting the attack.

The U.S. National Security adviser John Bolton, the morning after, thought it might have been faked.

JOHN BOLTON, NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: A pretext set up by the Maduro regime itself to something else.

WALSH: But U.S. officials briefed on the intelligence have since concluded the attack was a genuine attempt gone wrong and separately the organizer

said he met with several U.S. officials three times after the attack.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): After, they set up three meetings which I imagine were to collect information to study the case. But it

didn't go past that.

WALSH (on camera): And did they offer to help you try something like this again or were these meetings just about them finding out more about you?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): I think both. They wanted to get information and then we asked for things in return. They took notes on

this and we asked if they would be able to help. Then they simply left with their notes and they never appeared again.

WALSH (voice-over): CNN could not find proof these alleged meetings happened. A State Department spokesperson would not comment on the claim

but to say, "Our policy is support a peaceful transition in Venezuela."

Venezuelan officials said the plot which shook their capital was assisted by Colombia and the U.S. which both have denied. It unveiled a blend of

lethality and ingenuity using technology that's terrifyingly simple to get.

Nick Paton Walsh, CNN, Bogota, Colombia.


GORANI: All right. A quick word on our breaking news this hour. Dutch authorities have arrested the suspect in that Utrecht shooting. Gokmen

Tanis is a 37-year-old Turkish man. The suspected of having shot and killed three people injured -- five people, three of which are still in the


This was a very tense time for Utrecht because the gunman was still on the loose. And the highest threat level was maintained throughout the day.

Level five. It's unclear whether or not they will remove that now that the suspect has been arrested.

A motive unclear as well. Was it terror related or was it some sort of family dispute as some Dutch reports are suggesting.

[13:55:05] We will keep an eye on this story and we'll bring you more as more news emerges on this.

Thanks for watching. Stay with CNN, "AMANPOUR" is next.