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White House Hope to See Mueller Report Before Congress to Block Some Portions; Trump's Mental State Questioned by George Conway. Aired 7-7:30a ET

Aired March 19, 2019 - 07:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Congress wants to see the Mueller report. The public wants to see the Mueller report, but the White House wants to put its mark on it first. A lot of marks. Maybe black marks that you can't read through.

[07:00:12] CNN has learned that White House lawyers expect to have an opportunity to review the version of the report that Attorney General Bill Barr submits to Congress before it reaches lawmakers. They want the chance to claim executive privilege over information drawn from documents and interviews with White House officials. This could set up -- this will set up -- a legal battle and a political battle that could go all the way to the Supreme Court. That means that two justices nominated by President Trump could help decide the report's ultimate fate.

Meanwhile, something that the public will see today: a redacted version of the search warrants that led to last year's FBI raid on former Trump personal attorney, Michael Cohen.

ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR: The president's rapid-fire tweeting may have slowed over the past 24 hours. The questions, however, about the barrage of angry posts made over the weekend, those remain. And according to "The New York Times," no one in the White House really knows what set the president off. So there's that.

George Conway, though, has close to one of the president's closest advisors, Kellyanne Conway, has an idea, calling the president's mental state into question. Kellyanne Conway disagreeing with her husband.

Meantime, a new CNN poll finds the president's approval numbers are rising. Forty-two percent of Americans approve of the job he is doing; 51 percent disapprove. And that is the lowest share to do so since he took office.

Joining us now to discuss, David Gregory, CNN political analyst; Seung Min Kim, White House reporter for "The Washington Post" and CNN political analyst; Jeffrey Toobin, CNN chief legal analyst.

Good to have all of you with us this morning. There's -- it's sort of like a smorgasbord of where do we begin on all of the little nuggets this morning?

David, I do find it interesting, though, that there's been so much attention once again on the Conways, based on George Conway's tweets. And obviously, we learned a little bit about their marriage last year in "The Washington Post." But it's fascinating that we even have Brad Parscale coming out now. We have Kellyanne Conway saying something.

Does this go anywhere? I mean, how much do you think we should read into it?

DAVID GREGORY, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: I think George Conway is making mischief. I mean, he clearly doesn't like the president.

BERMAN: You think?

GREGORY: Yes. Yes, I get the impression.

BERMAN: I'm beginning to get the impression.

GREGORY: Only if you read the tweets over time, you come to that conclusion.

I actually don't think it's appropriate what he's doing. I think if you have a spouse who's in public service in that way, you ought to keep it to yourself.

But I think people will try to read into it. And -- and I think it's been suggested, does he know more than other people know? Perhaps. I think he's an opponent of the president who's using his forum, making it uncomfortable for his wife.

You know, they submitted to a "Washington Post" profile. So, you know, they're kind of hiding in plain sight. So you know, I don't know how far it goes other than the obvious melodrama of a senior advisor's spouse being so public about all this.

BERMAN: Funny you mentioned that "Washington Post" profile they submitted themselves to. The author of that will be here.

HILL: He will be joining us, yes.

GREGORY: See how I set that up for you.

BERMAN: To discuss that. Well done there. And you raised the key point there. I mean, certainly, it's awkward. I mean, certainly, it's cringeworthy to watch a public dispute like this between a husband and wife.

But you also bring up the other point, and Seung Min, I'll put this to you. Does George Conway know more than the rest of us? Does George Conway have an insight and a view of this White House and the president perhaps different than the American public? And is that why he feels compelled to maybe overshare the way he is?

SEUNG MIN KIM, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, that's something that we don't know at this point. But whether George Conway knows more than the rest of us does, is -- I mean, if that is the case, it's pretty enlightening when you think about in the context of "The New York Times" report, where it says that the -- his closest advisors, senior White House officials, actually don't really know what set him over the weekend. And, you know, we are trying to find that out, as well.

He clearly could have been still kind of steaming from the rebuke that he saw in the Senate over the last week, clearly with that vote on the emergency declaration, but also a rebuke on his policies in the Middle East, as well. We've seen Republicans kind of more willing, at least in certain policy areas, to push back at the administration and its policies.

But you know, he did -- the president did or said or tweeted a number of remarkable things over the weekend. And I think I can't -- it's still very stunning to me that the president is still going after a deceased United States senator.

We know that he does not like John McCain. We know that he held grudges with -- against John McCain for a litany of reasons during the senator's life. But I don't -- this is not -- this is not something that is -- it's just pretty stunning.

And also, the fact that you have people -- you know, even with remarks like that, kind of unwilling to push back. I mean, I keep thinking about what Lindsey Graham said in response. You know, he was Senator McCain's closest friend in the Senate, and yet he can't really push back against Trump. He's more commenting on Senator McCain's legacy. And I just think that just shows the power that the -- that the president has over the Republican Party right now.

[07:05:05] BERMAN: Funny you brought up "The New York Times" report, which suggests that the president's own advisors don't know why he staged this tweet storm. We're going to have one of the authors, one of the reporters from that "New York Times" report on in just a second, Maggie Haberman.

Jeffrey, I do want to shift gears to the CNN exclusive reporting overnight about the Mueller report and the idea that the White House lawyers expect to get their hands on it after Bill Barr but before the rest of us. Which to me, to my eyes, albeit I haven't gone to law school nearly as much as you have, that's a second filter. You have the Barr filter on the initial Mueller report, and now the White House wants to filter it a second time?

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN CHIEF LEGAL ANALYST: And they have the right to do that. I mean, this is important to remember.

Kenneth Starr, who you know, his famous report, he was an independent counsel. He reported to a three-judge panel, not to Janet Reno, the attorney general of the United States. Janet Reno had absolutely no control over Kenneth Starr.

Robert Mueller is a special counsel within the Department of Justice. He answers to Bill Barr, who answers to the president. He is part of the executive branch.

This is the White House's right to do this. Now, they may get some political criticism. But this is an example of what it means to be a subordinate to the president, that this report can be censored by the -- by the White House; and there is nothing Mueller can do about it, except resign in protest, if he wants.

GREGORY: I guess the question I have is to what extent can Congress force the issue with Mueller, compelling him to testify, getting aspects of the report? Because there is the public interest piece of this.

But, you know, the response to the Starr report and the narrative style of that report, once that independent law -- counsel law was revised, it was in response to the excesses, right, the perceived excesses of that report.

TOOBIN: That's right. And, you know, the law has been that Congress has much less of a right to tell -- open up the executive branch's files than, say, a court does. United States v. Nixon, the famous 1974 case about the White House tapes, that case was won and disclosure allowed, because it was a court that was subpoenaing it.

When Congress tried to subpoena the White House tapes, they lost. And that is a precedent that is worth remembering.

BERMAN: There's one other point here, which is that the area -- we were talking about what areas might be covered in executive privilege. It's not the campaign.

HILL: Right.

BERMAN: It's the presidency. But if you're talking about obstruction, the entire area of obstruction, potentially, the White House could claim some type of executive privilege. Any conversation the president had with any advisor.

TOOBIN: Absolutely. And it is worth remembering. We talk about executive privilege as if it's clear what's covered and what's not. It is not an area that the courts have really analyzed that much. And they -- a lot of discretion traditionally has been accorded to the president when it comes to executive privilege.

So you're right that all the stuff, pre-presidency, even during the transition, I think, will not -- there's no way that could be covered by executive privilege. But the conversations during the presidency, everything related, presumably, to the James Comey firing could be off-limits.

HILL: You can't ignore the political element to it either. Right? So in a perfect world, we have White House counsel and we have the attorney general sitting down having a real conversation, saying this is how we're going to walk through this. There is what our decision is. But David, there is the politics that is going to constantly be hanging over the institution in this case.

GREGORY: No question. And especially with regard to potential high crimes and misdemeanors while President Trump was president, that the Judiciary Committee in the House, Jerry Nadler is the chairman, has made that very clear. That is what they will be focused on for potential articles of impeachment. But it really does depend what Mueller concludes. And if he's not -- he's not going to charge the president.

But whatever that information is, whatever conclusions he draws that are going to be relevant to Congress making that determination, they're going to argue strenuously. We have more than the right. We have the obligation to get that information before so we can -- we can vet it, we can process it and make a determination whether we move forward with this process.

BERMAN: You know, I'm not sure, Seung Min, that from a purely political perspective, though, it serves the White House and the president's interests to have a prolonged fight over this report.

Because I can see a scenario where, for months and months, the White House is fighting to keep things secret; and Democrats just keep on shouting, "Why do you want to keep it a secret?" As long as it's a secret, there's always the possibility they're trying to hide something.

KIM: And I think especially from the transparency front, that's where you could see pushback from both Republicans and Democrats in Congress. Obviously, congressional Democrats have been the chief adversary here for the White House, in terms of their oversight and in terms of their investigations.

[07:10:05] But you know, we've seen Republican members of Congress, particularly in the Senate, say they at least want to see as much of the Mueller report as possible. And they believe that perhaps, you know, especially if it exonerates the president, why not put it out there and have nothing to hide?

So I think that's going to be, especially just on getting that information out there, it might not be something that, you know, the White House has a lot of allies on defending what their tactics are.

TOOBIN: Berman, I disagree with you about the idea that this would be some problem for them keeping this secret. The polls never change with this president. I mean, we talk about, you know, he's up to 42 percent. He's down to 39 percent. This is all probably just noise in the polls.

I mean, no one's mind has -- seems to be changed since over two years. And the idea that the president trying to keep this secret would make any difference, I don't think it would make any difference.

GREGORY: Well, because in a process fight, to those people who think it's unfair, will be a noble fight.

But I do think it's potentially a political winner if Republicans, mainly the White House, see evidence here that is thin, that falls short of what people have expected, to really drive that politically.

HILL: And we know the public wants to know. I mean, if we do look at polling on that. Should Mueller issue a public report on findings? Eighty-seven percent said yes.

BERMAN: There's also always the possibility, if you are hiding something, you have something to hide.

GREGORY: True.

BERMAN: There is that.

HILL: Deep thoughts by John Berman.

BERMAN: Yes.

TOOBIN: Good point.

BERMAN: All right. This morning, "The New York Times" is reporting that people inside the White House still don't know what set off the president to his bile binge tweet storm over the weekend. Maggie Haberman, one of the authors of this story overnight, she joins us now. She is a correspondent for "The New York Times."

Maggie, thank you so much for being with us. We were talking behind your back just moments ago.

MAGGIE HABERMAN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST (via phone): Uh-oh.

BERMAN: Let me do a dramatic reading -- let me do a dramatic reading from your piece this morning. "There was no golf. There were no meetings. There were no activities other than a rare visit to church, so President Trump did what he could do. He tweeted."

Is it really that simple?

HABERMAN: I think it is. Look, we've talked about this many, many times, where it's -- you know, people try to figure out why he's acting in a certain way, and sometimes it's a distraction and sometimes they're actually just him venting. And we often never really know.

I think this one, there are such a number of people sort of saying that he essentially was bored and was -- he was not home alone, but he was home without activities. He did not go golfing, as you noted. He didn't really have much activity outside of the White House. He did make a rare visit to church on St. Patrick's Day, which I thought was notable.

But he clearly had a lot on his mind, and he gets things on his mind, and he likes to vent and blow off steam and usually they go away. The volume was what was striking about this one. But I do think that it is probably attributable to the fact that there was not a ton going on to distract him.

BERMAN: It is interesting, Maggie. I learned in this story that you co-wrote that there are advisors within the White House, people close to the president, who show him the poll numbers, who show him data that situations like this are hurting him.

HABERMAN: There are -- he has been told a number of times over the last many years, in the campaign and as president, that the tweets are something that even his supporters don't necessarily like. They think that it's unpresidential. And he's heading into a period where he needs to, you know, be more presidential, ostensibly, as he's heading into a campaign. I'm not sure that he accepts that. But that is something that has been said to him over time.

I don't think it's a surprise to see him do counter to what aides warn him is a problem.

BERMAN: You noted over the weekend while this was going on that maybe we should all get ready for more norm busting. As we're heading into a campaign season, that 48 tweets may seem paltry to what we could see two months from now, six months from now.

HABERMAN: I think -- I think that's right, John. And I think that what was striking to me about the tweets, frankly, was not so much the volume striking, although that was striking, but the tone of them and the substance of some of them, the attacks on John McCain, which then shifted over to retweeting attacks on his daughter, Meghan McCain, who was defending herself. I thought she had, really, the most interesting answer of anyone, something you know, to the effect of, you know, "I'm glad I don't have a family member who engages in this kind of behavior over the weekend." I think that that is a comment that you will see some of people relating to that she made.

I think that he is hitting a lot of what would typically been seen as taboo targets, right? He is making clear he's not going to relent on going after not just a war hero but a deceased war hero. He was spreading more conspiracy-minded tweets. I think that the way that he wins is by shocking people, and I think that is what is going to be he's going to continue to do going forward.

BERMAN: While we have you on your phone, I do want to get your take on some of your reporting that CNN did, the idea that the White House believes it will get its hands on a version of the Mueller report before it goes to Congress and the public.

[07:15:08] Maggie, you know, you talked to so many different people. What's the feeling with this imminent report? Does the White House -- feels like it has control over this situation?

HABERMAN: It was a -- it was a great story, and it is true that there are people within the White House and there are people in -- within the White House meaning the counsel's office, and then there are people just on the president's personal legal team who don't formally have a role in that, but who I think are hoping for the same outcome, which is that they will be able to review it and strike certain things for privilege and therefore, you know, delay any further movement on it.

I don't think that they think they have control over this situation. I think they, like any number of people who are, you know, sort of making predictions about when this is going to wrap up, are sitting and waiting to see when it ends. They have as little sense as the rest of us of actually when this is going to happen.

But I think that is the one area where they feel like they can assert some control or hope to; and what they're looking for.

BERMAN: Maggie Haberman, great to have you. Always a pleasure to read to you from your own reporting.

HABERMAN: Thank you, sir.

BERMAN: Thanks, Maggie.

Erica.

HILL: Kellyanne Conway and her husband's public battle over the president's mental state making things rather awkward for a Trump -- top advisor to President Trump. We're going to speak with "The Washington Post" reporter who spent a fair amount of time with the couple, next.

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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[07:20:22] KELLYANNE CONWAY, COUNSELOR TO DONALD TRUMP: No, I don't share those concerns. And I was getting -- I have four kids, and I was getting them out of the house this morning before I got here. So I didn't talk to the president about substance. So I may not be up to speed on all of them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: Counsel to the president Kellyanne Conway there, on her way into work defending President Trump's mental fitness. Those questions coming after her husband, George Conway, a frequent Trump critic on Twitter, suggested the president was suffering from a personality disorder.

Joining us now, "Washington Post" feature reporter, Ben Terris, who spent some time with Kellyanne and George Conway last August and wrote an article about their politically complicated marriage, one that is certainly getting renewed interest this morning after -- after the back and forth that we've seen online.

Ben, good to have you with us.

BEN TERRIS, "WASHINGTON POST" FEATURE REPORTER: Thanks for having me.

HILL: You know, you wrote at the time that "They love each other, are exasperated by each other, talk about each other behind each other's backs. They share a roof and live in different bunkers. The story of any marriage but one that is, in many ways, emblematic of our national predicament, particularly on the right."

Do you think they're still in the same place today, six or so months later, as they were back in August when you sat down with them?

TERRIS: That's a good question. I mean, I think they're basically in the same place but maybe slightly worse. George Conway has been tweeting more, and he's getting more followers, so every time he tweets, it's a bigger deal. And he's saying kind of more explosive things. So whether they're in the same exactly place, it's hard to say, but the same problems are definitely there.

HILL: You talk about that he's tweeting more. Back when you spoke with him, he called it an outlet for himself, that it was really just a small part of his life, and he thinks he's holding back a little. Do you think he's still holding back?

TERRIS: Yes, to a degree. Right? I mean, so he tweets a lot, but each only takes a couple seconds to fire out. He could easily be, you know, sitting in his chair where I am right now instead of me talking about this. He could be on morning shows. He could be doing evening television, on podcast on the radio, and he really doesn't do that. He pretty much keeps all of his criticism to Twitter and the occasional op-ed. And I think that's what he means by it's his outlet.

If he didn't have at least some way to express how he feels, I think he would go a little bit crazy. And he definitely could do more, but Twitter is his mode that he's chosen so far.

HILL: He has grown his followers exponentially in the last few months, as we have seen, from 94,000 to now nearly 400,000. Was it your sense that this is all genuine, what we're hearing from George Conway on Twitter?

TERRIS: Yes. It's my sense that he truly believes this, whether it's a deal that he and Kellyanne have worked out where he's able to do this. People have made that -- that guess. But I don't think that's true. I really get the sense that she is annoyed by his Twitter habits and that he just kind of can't help himself. They figured out a way to at least make it work for now.

So I don't know exactly what all the conversations have been like since I spent time with him. But I do think he truly believes all this stuff. He does seem very exacerbated by the president when you talk to him.

HILL: Did there seem to be a bar at all, though? Was there a point? Did you get the sense that there was a point at which point Kellyanne would say, "You know what, George? Enough is enough. Just cut it out"?

TERRIS: I mean, I think she says that to him, and I think he just kind of can't help himself. I think that they, at least at some point, have agreed to a sort of detent where they just don't talk about this stuff. They've got other things they have to worry about.

They have -- you know, they each have jobs. They have children to raise. They have lives to live. And I think they basically realize they can't talk about this all the time. Otherwise, it will be literally the only thing they ever talk about.

HILL: You know, in response to George Conway's tweet, we actually heard from Brad Parscale, of course, from the 2020 campaign, who posted a tweet, which at the end, said that George Conway is only doing this because he is jealous of her success, in reference to Kellyanne Conway.

And she's noted in the past, "People know who George Conway is because of me. It is not the other way around."

TERRIS: I don't --

HILL: Do you buy that, the jealousy angle?

TERRIS: Well, I don't think he's jealous of her success, necessarily. He is very proud of her. He says that even during -- even when I was spending time with him and he hated the president, he still would talk about how proud he was of his wife.

He said -- basically, he said, "Look, I don't think the president deserves her. She's so talented; she's so great." His anger, he says, is with the president and not with Kellyanne. And I think he truly is proud of her and her abilities. So I'm not sure that -- that, you know, that he is as angry with her as he is with the president.

HILL: Could George Conway's tweets, in some way, help Kellyanne Conway in terms of proving her loyalty to the president?

TERRIS: I think there's something to be said about that. I mean, when my story came out, there was a lot of discussion about how she had almost seemed to take the side of the president over the side of her own husband.

And if you're the president of the United States and you read that article -- I'm not sure he read it, but if he at least saw the coverage of it, he would probably see, "Oh, look, Kellyanne is so loyal to me that she's willing to go to the pages of 'The Washington Post' and stand up for me over the words of her own husband."

[07:25:11] So perhaps that is valuable in the White House.

HILL: Spouses disagree on all kinds of things all the time. They disagree on politics all the time, perhaps not always as publicly. But if you look back at, let's say, Mary Matalin and James Carville, you look at disagreements there, is it different, you think, because things are so turbocharged in this Trump era, or is this simply different because these are the Conways?

TERRIS: I think it's different in a number of ways. I mean, Mary Matalin and James Carville are, you know, opposite parties. So they kind of -- their roles made perfect sense.

George Conway was a supporter of the president for a long time. He almost worked in the administration. He cried on the night of the election, he was so proud of his wife and so happy about the election.

This disagreement is different. He is a conservative who's disagreeing with the president, not just somebody who is standing on solid ground arguing either Democratic or Republican principles.

HILL: Ben Terris, good to have you with us this morning. Thank you. TERRIS: Thanks for having me.

HILL: John.

BERMAN: All right. A GM plant that shut down in Ohio becoming a centerpiece for a 2020 debate. Now one senator is laying out his plan to get it back open, and he's getting some high-profile support. That's next.

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