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Heated Debate Inside The Trump Administration Over Whether The Justice Department Should Support A Ruling To Invalidate Affordable Care Act; Measles Emergency In A New York Suburb; Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand (D), The First Democratic Presidential Candidate To Disclose Her 2018 Tax Returns. Aired 8:30-9a ET

Aired March 27, 2019 - 08:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JOHN BERMAN, ANCHOR, CNN: A White House official tells CNN there has been a heated debate inside the Trump administration over whether the Justice Department should support a ruling to invalidate, throw out the entire Affordable Care Act. So what would happen if the courts effectively kill Obamacare?

Joining me is former Secretary of Health and Human Services Kathleen Sebelius. She has served under President Obama and led the effort to pass and implement the Affordable Care Act.

Secretary, thank you so much for being with us. There is a legal, a policy and a political discussion to be had over all of this, and you are uniquely equipped to deal with all three as a former Secretary and a former Democratic Governor.

I want to start with the legal and policy issue first. If a court decided tomorrow to strike down all of Obamacare and say the Supreme Court agreed, what would happen? I mean, what would happen? What would millions of Americans lose?

KATHLEEN SEBELIUS, FORMER SECRETARY OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES: Well, I think, John, people have to understand how much the Affordable Care Act affects almost every American who relies on healthcare. So starting with the millions of people who are now enrolled in Obamacare plans, they would clearly lose coverage.

But so would the 17 million who have expanded Medicaid coverage in states across the country, now 34 states; and as you know, three states had a valid initiative this November and overwhelmingly passed Medicaid expansion. In our state of Kansas, one of the additional three states with new governors pledging to expand Medicaid, so that's six more states where the voters have clearly spoken that they want this to happen. We would lose all of the pre-existing protections against insurance companies.

And that means simply that insurance companies could once again after nine years of protection, pick and choose who gets coverage and who doesn't and really charge as much as they wanted. There are about 150 million Americans with pre-existing conditions.

In Medicare, seniors would lose the prescription protection that they have with the so-called "donut hole." So those seniors who have chronic conditions who take the most medications would again pay exorbitant rates for those medications. And it goes on and on.

Parents who currently can help their children get coverage in an employee plan up to the age of 26 that would disappear, so we estimate that most Americans would have some portion of their healthcare blown up, about -- the uninsured rate would increase by about 65% in this country and there is no alternative being offered once again by the Republicans or this administration.

BERMAN: Now, you laid out what the Affordable Care Act does. And those are just policies. That is just what is the law now, no, there can be no --

SEBELIUS: Actually, those are people.

BERMAN: I understand.

SEBELIUS: Those are really affecting people.

BERMAN: I understand. I understand and what I'm saying, though, is that there can be a political debate about whether or not it does it well or it should be doing it, but that is what it does at this moment for people. You brought up --

SEBELIUS: Right.

BERMAN: We talked to former Senator Rick Santorum, who says, "Well, if the court case gets knocked down, and Obamacare gets thrown out, it's an opportunity to replace it with something better." Is that an argument to you?

SEBELIUS: Well, I think -- it's an argument that the Republicans have made, I would say since President Obama signed this bill into law in March of 2010.

The Republican Party's unifying principle has been first declared the law unconstitutional, which failed in 2012. Secondly, stopped it from happening. Ted Cruz shut the government down with the Republican's ascent in 2013, so that this would never go into effect. They have been trying in election after election to try and shut this down when the Republicans owned all the real estate in Washington, had the House, had the Senate, and had the Presidency. They've failed to do this legislatively, and now they're going to court.

There has never been a replacement proposal in those entire nine years. So we don't have any idea what they would tell the American people, but we know millions of people would lose coverage and about half of Americans - half of Americans would lose the pre-existing conditions protections that they have.

BERMAN: The Republicans claim that Graham-Cassidy was an alternative there. I do want to bring up another point, this is where it gets political here. Opinions of Obamacare; 50% favorable now, 39% disapprove. I will note the latest monthly premiums for Obamacare have actually gone down.

All of that said, you have told me before, you believe the Affordable Care Act should be improved. What are the specific improvements you would make immediately if you could.

SEBELIUS: Absolutely. Well, I think you've had a House Bill introduced yesterday, which has a lot of very important structural improvements.

[08:35:01]

SEBELIUS: It would help individuals who currently don't have a subsidy for their premiums, lower those rates, make sure that people are not paying any more than 8% of their income. We need help with the so-called reinsurance pool that now several states have put in place. But I think could be very effective across the country, paying for the highest priced cases, particularly in fragile markets.

And frankly, I love having the option of having people who don't have a choice in the marketplace be able to have a public option, buy into a public plan and have that kind of competitive choice.

So, there is a bill right now in the House floor that has been introduced that has very specific changes that could help people overnight. And I think continuing the implementation of Medicaid, so a state like mine in Kansas where we have 150,000 people who are, frankly, earning too little to be subsidized in the private marketplace who could have coverage overnight if the Senate passes the bill that is pending.

So we have some real ways to immediately help Americans who are still struggling with high cost, and I am hoping that Congress goes to work on prescription drug costs that affects every American and so those pieces could happen right away.

BERMAN: Former Secretary Kathleen Sebelius, thanks so much for being with us this morning. Appreciate it.

SEBELIUS: Sure. Good to visit with you.

BERMAN: Alisyn.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, ANCHOR, CNN: Okay, John, there is this measles emergency in a New York suburb with unvaccinated children now banned from being out in public. So Dr. Sanjay Gupta is going to join us about this next.

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CAMEROTA: Here's to your health. Children under the age of 18 who are not vaccinated are now banned from going to public places in Rockland County, New York. Officials say the ban aims to put an end to a measles outbreak that began in October.

So joining us now is CNN's chief medical correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta. So Sanjay, what does this mean?

SANJAY GUPTA, CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT, CNN: This is really interesting. And I don't think I've ever heard of something quite like this, a ban for unvaccinated children, people under the age of 18, from attending public places. Now, keep in mind, and I want to tell you what that is going to mean specifically, butt keep in mind, this is after you've had an increasing number of measles cases in Rockland County, New York.

The numbers continue to go up, 153 cases since October. You've had kids that have been pulled out of school for having been unvaccinated. You've had 17,000 doses of the measles vaccine given over the last few month, and still the numbers continue to go up.

So what this is now is basically saying any public place -- places where people congregate, including even buses, and things like that. People who are unvaccinated, children who are unvaccinated are banned from attending those places.

It does not mean that there is going to be law enforcement walking around asking for vaccination records, but if subsequently someone contracts the measles, they were found to have been unvaccinated and found to have been in one of these public places, they could be referred to the District Attorney's Office, and could even you know, they could face a penalty for that.

So, we don't know exactly how that's going to be enforced, because this is a new thing, but clearly, this is a strong message, Alisyn, that if you were not vaccinated, you need to get vaccinated.

CAMEROTA: And Sanjay, obviously, we have been talking -- we've been hearing over the last few months about measles, outbreaks in New York, in California, and Washington State. So how big of a threat are those?

GUPTA: This is, you know, you're talking about one of the most contagious infectious diseases out there and I want to show you some numbers really quick just in terms of how protective the measles vaccine can be.

If you get both the shots as a kid, you are 97% protected. If you look at the numbers of people who have contracted the measles, the vast majority of them were not vaccinated. You know, which makes sense, but just to be clear, that also gives you some indication of how protective this vaccine is.

Those are the numbers there, 82% of the people who got the confirmed measles cases in Rockland County did not get vaccinated. Is it 100% effective? No. But this is how they are going to sort of figure this out.

CAMEROTA: All right, Sanjay, thank you very much. We want let everybody know to join Dr. Sanjay Gupta as he journeys across the world to find the secrets to living better. His all-new CNN original series called "Chasing Life" premiers Saturday, April 13th at 9:00 p.m. only on CNN. I can't wait to watch it. Thank you so much, Sanjay.

All right, New York Senator Kirsten Gillibrand just did something that no other 2020 candidate has done. We are going to talk to her live. Next.

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[08:45:00]

CAMEROTA: Senator Kirsten Gillibrand just became the first Democratic presidential candidate to disclose her 2018 tax returns, and she is challenging other candidates to do the same, and joining us now here in the studio is Senator Kirsten Gillibrand, great to see you this morning.

SEN. KIRSTEN GILLIBRAND (D-NY), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Thank you for having me.

CAMEROTA: Okay, so hot off the presses, you now have 12 years of your tax returns out in the public domain and you've just this morning in the past hour released your 2018 taxes, I don't even think they're due yet.

GILLIBRAND: Not yet. April 15th.

CAMEROTA: Okay, you are ahead of it. Why did you want to do that?

GILLIBRAND: Because I think transparency and accountability is so important in government. When I first ran for Congress and won, I posted my earmarked requests, my financial disclosure and my schedule. It was my sunlight report.

And I think the American people have a right to know, particularly people who are running for President and our President today who has not disclosed his tax returns, have a right to know. It basically means, it allows people to know that you are working for them and nobody else.

CAMEROTA: You are drawing a contrast between yourself and President Trump. And in fact, in your official announcement of jumping into the race which was just this Sunday you did it in front of the Trump Hotel. And I am just wondering, we have a wide shot here, do you really want President Trump's name looming over your announcement? I mean, what was your thinking here of doing it right on his doorstep?

GILLIBRAND: I think President Trump is literally tearing apart the moral fabric of this country. And so we started our announcement with the stories of the American people that I will lift up their voices, survivors of gun violence, transgender service members, people who believe that this country is the only home they've known, DREAMers who want to be able to call this country their home.

These are people who are speaking out and our President, unfortunately dismissed, demeaned and really not represented all of America, and so this campaign is about a vision, a vision for America about what's right, about making sure that we show what bravery looks like and fighting for what's right.

And it doesn't really matter who you are fighting against, what matters is who you are fighting for, and I talked about the values I have, passing a Green New Deal, making sure we have healthcare as a right and not a privilege, making sure we have better public schools and get rid of college debt.

[08:50:07]

GILLIBRAND: I mean, these visions of what it matters to be an American, and that the American dream is actually for everybody.

CAMEROTA: I guess the point is this, President Trump has a way of eclipsing lots of other things, and so all of you, candidates have to decide whether you are going to ignore him or kind of make him the backdrop of things, it seems like you've chosen --

GILLIBRAND: Well, that tower that I'm standing, it is a tower that represents greed and division and vanity and all things that is not who we are on our best days.

I believe as Abraham Lincoln wanted us to do is look to our better angels. I believe that we should be -- being a stronger country, and what makes us great is the diversity and entrepreneurialism and this ability to dream big and solve big problems, that's why we should pass the Green New Deal and actually get a renewable economy, so we can take on something as big as global climate change.

It's why we should deliver healthcare is a right not a privilege. That's why Medicare for all is a great solution and I know how to get from A to B. We should let people buy in. It's a part of the bill that I got to work on.

So it's all about who has a bigger vision for this country and really showing that there is such a difference between who President Trump is and certainly who I am, starting with where you wanted on transparency and accountability.

I have actually done the brave things of passing the STOCK Act, which said Members of Congress could not engage in insider trading. An obvious fact, but they were, so taking on Congress and whether you're taking on the banks and not voting for the bailout twice as I did.

I have the courage and the bravery to stand up when it matters when taking on fights that sometimes other people won't take on.

CAMEROTA: I want to ask you about Joe Biden. He is not yet in the race, though good money says that he will get in at some point soon. And so he has been having to explain his conduct during the Anita Hill hearings in 1991, and last night, he did so again.

So I just want to play for you what he said about that. So this was in 1991 here. Many people thought that his treatment of her was tone deaf. Here's what he said about it last night.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: When Anita Hill came to testify, she faced a committee that didn't fully understand what the hell it was all about, to this day, I regret I couldn't come up with a way to get her the kind of hearing she deserved.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: What do you think?

GILLIBRAND: Well, we know the Anita Hill hearings were deeply flawed. There were lots of allegations at the time. There were a lot of corroborating witnesses that weren't even interviewed and which is why when we had the most recent Kavanaugh hearings, we were so focused on all these corroborating witnesses that the committee would not allow to testify.

So they made the same mistakes again, not allowing truth to be told. Not allowing full transparency and all of this goes to this overwhelmingly important issue to me, and should be to America that do we value women? Do we allow these stories to come forward to believe them enough so we could at least investigate them fully? Hear from the corroborating witnesses, get the facts. All of that is necessary.

And that's why I've taken on the Pentagon over sexual assault in the military and taken on college campuses to make sure we have a process there and even Congress. We were able to pass on a bipartisan basis a unanimous bill. Lots of us working on it, even with Ted Cruz, to get that work done to change the rules here.

CAMEROTA: I mean, and yet, you know how complicated, how grave these things can be. You had a situation in your own office where a woman didn't feel heard adequately. Would you do anything differently in that situation?

GILLIBRAND: So she was definitely heard and believed. We believed all her allegations. We investigated thoroughly and immediately and the allegations that she actually made didn't rise to the level of sexual harassment.

So she was never not believed. And we took it very seriously, which we always do. That's the point. When someone comes forward, you must take it seriously. That's why we are demanding the Pentagon to actually prosecute these cases of sexual assault and harassment. It's why we changed the rules for Congress, because someone who did come forward against their boss would have had to wait three months to even file a claim and have a mandatory waiting period of three months of cooling off, of mandatory arbitration and counseling. Like it wasn't fair.

So that's why you have to create a process that's immediate, that takes these claims seriously, which is what we did and for that particular person, I told her that we loved her, we very much value her.

CAMEROTA: I want to move on to guns because as you know, the Parkland student activists are here in D.C. and yesterday they built this incredible art installation on basically the front lawn of the Capitol because they want to get lawmakers attention. That's a bullseye. They have a student trapped at their desk in the middle of the bullseye because they don't think that federally, lawmakers are paying attention.

I know it says your complacency kills us. So they put that right on the Capitol lawn. And so they want more done.

[08:55:08]

CAMEROTA: I know your position on guns has changed, of course, over the years. Earlier in year career, in about 2008, you were a supporter of gun rights so much so that the NRA gave you an A rating, and so what has happened since then?

GILLIBRAND: So ten years ago when I became a U.S. senator, I recognized that I was only focused on the needs of my upstate district. But I really should have been focusing on the needs of everyone, and I think what these kids are doing is incredible. I think that installation is so powerful and Congress does deserve to have those words right in front of their faces that their complacency in Washington is an outrage.

And the truth is, I have a very proud rating of an F by the NRA now. But the truth of this is that the NRA is corrupted. It is largely funded by gun manufacturers and this is the difference between capitalism and greed. When you say our gun sales are more important than having a universal background check, more important than making sure a terrorist on a terror watch list can't get a gun or making sure that someone with grave mental illness with a violent background can't get a gun or someone with a criminal record for violence can't get a gun, what the NRA is saying, "No, no, no, we want all those people to be able to purchase guns, because we are against universal background checks, and the fact that these Members of Congress continue to turn a blind eye and refuse to do the right thing is an outrage.

CAMEROTA: But in 2008 you didn't understand that?

GILLIBRAND: I didn't have -- I didn't do the right thing. I think someone who can't recognize when they're wrong - it is far more concerning if you can never admit when you are wrong and not only was I wrong, and not only should I have cared more about gun violence in other parts of my state or my country. I just didn't.

And so now I know. I need to be far more thoughtful about all issues, regardless of whether it is an issue for my state or my district and I think that makes me a better candidate for President. I think it makes me a better person.

Because if you don't have an ounce of humility to know when you are wrong, how are you possibly going to govern all of America? How are you possibly going to help all the places in America that needs your voice? I can do that.

And one of the reasons why I'm running for President is I've always done that. I bring our state together with the highest vote threshold in the history at the state at 72%. It's because I win the red places, the blue places, and the purple places, because I fight for everyone's family as if they were my own.

CAMEROTA: Senator Kirsten Gillibrand, thanks so much for being on "New Day." Great to have you here.

GILLIBRAND: It's been a delight, thank you.

CAMEROTA: Thanks so much. John --

GILLIBRAND: Thank you.

BERMAN: All right, thanks, Alisyn. New developments in the battle over your healthcare. That's next.

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