Return to Transcripts main page

New Day

State Rep. Ed Setzler and State Senator Jen Jordan for Georgia Interviewed Regarding The Heartbeat Bill; White House Acting Chief of Staff Claims President Trump is Serious about Threatening to Close U.S. Border with Mexico; Democratic Politician Alleges Joe Biden Violated her Personal Space Inappropriately; Man Arrested for Kidnapping and Murder of South Carolina Woman. Aired 8-8:30a ET

Aired April 01, 2019 - 8:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

CRISTINA ALESCI, CNN BUSINESS AND POLITICS CORRESPONDENT: -- country, Delta, United, Southwest where I am right now, passengers really frustrated because of the lack of information and really understanding. But gate agents and everyone in the airport trying to reassure passengers that it wasn't a safety issue with the airplanes. It was a technical issue. But those issues caused hours and hours of delays for passengers today.

It seems to be coming back online. Delta, for example, saying there was a brief third-party technology issue preventing some Delta connection flights from being dispatched on time this morning, but Delta saying there were no canceled flights, only delays at this point. Just a lot of people trying to get to where they need to be and finding it rather difficult this morning, especially for me. I missed my meeting. Alisyn?

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Well, we can give you a note, because it does seem very legit, your reason for missing that meeting.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: She missed the meeting but got to lead the 8:00 hour.

(LAUGHTER)

BERMAN: So the airlines giveth and they taketh away. Cristina Alesci, thank you for being with us, intrepid reporting, way to be at the site, at the scene of the news at the right time.

President Trump taking on two big battles this week, the border with Mexico and health care. The president with a new threat to shut the U.S.-Mexico border. Acting White House Chief of Staff Mick Mulvaney says the president this time, this time he's serious.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICK MULVANEY, INCOMING ACTING WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF: But we're also concerned about the effect to the American economy and the nation as a whole from having more than 100,000 people cross illegally this month. If we close the borders, why would we do that? Because we need the people who are working at the legal ports of entry to go patrol -- and I'm not making this up -- where there's no wall. We were not lying the people when we said that this was an emergency. Very few people believed us, especially folks in the media and the Democrat Party.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: It's the Democratic Party, Democratic Party. The chief of staff knows that. It's something Republicans occasionally do when they're trying to besmirch the Democratic Party.

Joining us now to discuss, Ana Navarro, CNN political commentator, David Gregory, CNN political analyst, and Irin Carmon, senior correspondent for "New York Magazine" and a CNN contributor. Ana Navarro, this time the president is serious. He's going to shut the U.S. border with Mexico despite the economic numbers from the Chamber of Commerce, $611 billion in cross border trade, $206 billion in exports shipped to Mexico, 1,000 trucks cross the border every day. This is what would be lost to the economy, not to mention what would be lost to those Central American countries when the U.S. removes foreign aid. Is this good policy?

ANA NAVARRO, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Of course it's not good policy. And there needs to be some sort of comprehensive policy to approach this issue. First of all, the issue needs to be addressed. But what are the root causes of the issue? Why are people leaving those three Central American countries, the northern triangle countries, or, as the folks on FOX News call them, the three other Mexicos, why are people leaving El Salvador, Guatemala, and Honduras? They're fleeing gang violence, they are fleeing extreme poverty, they are fleeing hopelessness.

So what can we do? As people -- the United States is directly affected by this. It's not only a good neighbor's policy, it is a smart policy to be able to cooperate with some of these governments. And these governments do bear some responsibility. There's been a lot of corruption, there's been a lot of mismanagement. So let's not even try to think or say that they've been angels and they've been great.

But they've also done a lot of things to cooperate with the United States. We have had joint operations for drug interdiction. We've had joint military operations with some of these countries. So it is really shortsighted and rather stupid to think that by giving them tough love and by cutting off foreign aid and by cutting off the border you're going to solve the issue. A lot of us would say you're going to make it a lot worse. And in addition to that, you're going to severely impact the U.S. economy.

CAMEROTA: I'm so glad you brought up the underlying reasons, because even on the State Department's own website, David Gregory, where they talk about why they give hundreds of millions of dollars, I think about $500 million, to these three countries, they say, according to the State Department's website, that region suffers from high rates of violence and crime with weak judicial systems to protect those affected. And so I understand the president sees -- so many of his calculations are who is screwing the U.S. over, but I'm not sure how depriving them of funds will solve those underlying problems. DAVID GREGORY, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Right, it doesn't solve the

problem. It also, when you just make it a law enforcement issue or keeping migrants out doesn't solve the problem because many want to get apprehended. They'll turn themselves in when they get to the border knowing that they'll be two years before their case is actually adjudicated.

[08:05:07] This is a real problem in terms of how overwhelmed our resources are and personnel are on the border. It's a real issue. But you don't create a fire just to be able to say I put it out. That's not real immigration policy. And this has been a problem in this administration and more broadly with how polarized immigration politics have become over the past 15, 20 years. There's nothing that's constructive that's being done. To say you want to cut off funds or to use money to build a wall doesn't actually address what is a real problem that predates president Trump. This was an issue that the Obama administration was dealing with in terms of those who were seeking asylum.

So it's not just seeking asylum that we have to be compassionate about, but it's also understanding the demand, of course, that this country has for laborers who are going to come in from south of the border, none of which is addressed. When we have a president just talking about illegals coming in and building walls and cutting off funds. It's just not real policy.

BERMAN: Irin, do you really believe he's serious about this? Mick Mulvaney swears that this time he means it.

IRIN CARMON, SENIOR CORRESPONDENT, "NEW YORK" MAGAZINE: I think this is what happens when you are governed by the base instincts of YouTube commenters and Breitbart columnists. This is essentially engineering a kind of racist fantasyland. Whether it ends up coming to fruition or not, this is all about keeping president Trump's base in a permanent state of furious arousal.

And so whether it happens or not, Trump validating that this is the right way to do it, to shut a border that every day goods and services and people going to school and people going to work come across, and then engineering a situation where they are intentionally -- this has been reported, they are intentionally not providing services for the folks who have made it across the border, who are living under bridges and at bus stations, they are engineering a crisis in order to validate xenophobia.

There are serious human rights concerns, but cutting off aid and closing the border and enabling people to -- excuse me -- not creating the resources on the ground for people who are coming in is intentionally creating a crisis, to then come in and say I will fix it.

CAMEROTA: I hear you, but do you think the system truly is overwhelmed?

CARMON: I think they can set up a system to process people who are coming in and seeking asylum, and I think we cannot lose sight of the fact that these are real people. There are real people that I am close to from El Salvador and from Guatemala and from Honduras, who are coming here, who are families, who are children, who are trying to make a better life for their families. And so I think they need to be processed in accordance with international law and not used as political pawns.

CAMEROTA: What we heard from Janet Napolitano last week was that they could also invest money in more judges. Yes, there are more families coming in, they do need to be processed as to whether or not there are legitimate asylum cases. They could put the money into judges, but they're closing the border. That's a choice.

CARMON: It is absolutely a choice.

BERMAN: If we can, I want to talk and Joe Biden, because it came up over the weekend, started last Friday, Lucy Flores, who was a Nevada state legislature, was, who was running for lieutenant governor, says that the vice president in 2014 made her feel uncomfortable and gross when she says he sniffed her hair and kissed her on the back of the head at an event.

CAMEROTA: Backstage they were waiting to go out. He was behind her, put his hands on her shoulder, she said.

BERMAN: So let me read you the statement that we received from Vice President Biden. He goes, "I may not recall these moments the same way and I may be surprised at what I hear. But we have arrived at an important time when women feel they can and should relate their experiences, and men should pay attention, and I will." Irin, let's start with you here, because you've been very vocal over the weekend on this. And we've heard from people voicing both sides of this, today, which is number one, oh, this is really nothing. People should move on. Or number two, this needs to be taken seriously.

CARMON: John, when I just saw you in makeup, and I came behind you and sniffed your hair and put my hands on your shoulder, it was totally cool, right? I think that this should be viewed in context, right? No one is making a criminal allegation, but the context of it, to my mind, is that the Democratic Party is animated right now by women. And the context is Joe Biden's career of paternalistic attitudes and policies towards women in the guise of protecting them that he has now even into his 70s not interrogated.

There may be people who are thrilled to have Joe Biden be affectionate towards them. That's great. But making the assumption that somebody who is a political colleague of yours wants their hands on them means that you have not thought about how the other person feels about this. And saying things like, oh, Anita Hill, I wish I could have done something, when you were the chairman of the committee, speaking about women seeking abortion as if you're their father and you want them to not be scared and that abortion is always wrong, you're trafficking in racial backlash policies.

[08:10:00] To me, if I were close to Joe Biden, and I think he las a long career of public service to proud of, but I were close to him, I would say Joe, quit while you're ahead, it's not your time. CAMEROTA: Do you chalk this up, Ana, to a generational misfire, or is

there more that he needs to do?

NAVARRO: I do think there's a generational component to it, and I do think he has addressed it and needs to address it. Like I said before, I think he should call both Anita Hill and Lucy Flores and have a conversation with them, learn from them, talk to them, have a private heart-to-heart with them, and apologize, and say, look, some of the things I said and did were inappropriate then.

But I also think that -- I really don't like this entire discussion surrounding Joe Biden, and I'll tell you why, because I think that when we make such hay about things that were not intentionally perverse. This was not sexual harassment. Lucy Flores has said so herself. She said he violated her personal space, that's how she felt.

But when we somehow talk about this in the same breath that we talk about Donald Trump or that we talk about Harvey Weinstein, or that we talk about Brett Kavanaugh, or even Bill Clinton, what happens is that I think we are cheapening the Me Too movement, we are doing harm to the Me Too movement, and we are questioning people who are decent people. Nobody has questioned Joe Biden's decency. Nobody has said that Joe Biden is a sexual harasser. Nobody has come out to say this is more than it was.

That does not mean that it was not inappropriate. And that does not mean like he is saying and he himself is acknowledging, he doesn't have to learn from this. And he has got to hear that there are some women who are made to feel uncomfortable by some of his affection, some of his unwelcome, uninvited affection. He can't do this. It's a bad look in 2009, it's a bad look in 2019, it's even worse. And he has got to take that into account, and he's got to stop it full stop. Unless it's Jill, don't put your hands on anybody's shoulder or kiss anybody's back of the head.

That being said, Joe Biden is a decent, decent human being who has done a lot of things, like the Violence Against Women's Act, he's got a long record on these things. And I don't think we should throw the baby out with the bathwater.

BERMAN: Ana, Irin, David, thank you very much.

CAMEROTA: We are getting some new, disturbing details about the murder of that college student in South Carolina. Police say she got into a car that she thought was an Uber but it was not. Investigators say child safety locks trapped 21-year-old Samantha Josephson in the back seat. The driver is now charged with her kidnapping and murder. CNN's Dianne Gallagher has been live for us all morning in Columbia, South Carolina, with the latest details. What have you learned, Dianne?

DIANNE GALLAGHER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Alisyn, look, this is something that has chilled everybody here in Columbia to the bone, because it is something that basically everyone here has done. They call an Uber, they get into that car with that stranger. Although police say in this case, 21-year-old Samantha Josephson called an Uber just after 2:00 in the morning on Friday after leaving the bar here behind me, that the car she got into, the man behind the wheel was not her Uber driver. They say that man took her to a county about 70 miles away, and according to police that man killed her.

Now, hunters, turkey hunters discovered her body about 12, 13 hours after she was last seen on surveillance video right here in Columbia. Her friends reported her missing. They couldn't get in touch with her. And then roughly 24 hours after she disappeared, police saw a vehicle that matched the description, this black Chevy Impala. They tried to pull it over not far from where I'm standing right now, and say the man who was driving got out, ran off, they chased him. When they arrested him, they said inside the vehicle they found blood that they say belonged to Samantha and her cellphone. Perhaps most chilling at all, there was a child seat in thing back, and they say that he said he had the child locks on the doors and the windows engaged. According to the sheriff, that meant that she likely could not have gotten out even if she tried.

Now, he did not appear, his name is Nathaniel Rowland, he did not appear at his first appearance. His attorney, a public defender, said they don't have any comment. But Samantha's mother did. Here is what she said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARCI JOSEPHSON, MOTHER OF SAMANTHA JOSEPHSON: I cannot fathom how someone could randomly select a person, a beautiful girl, and steal her life away. His actions were senseless, vile, and unacceptable. It sickens us to think that his face was the last thing that my baby girl saw on this earth.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DIANNE GALLAGHER, CORRESPONDENT, CNN: Now Samantha's father through a Facebook post essentially broke the news to the campus here that this daughter, a 21-year-old who was law school bound, John. She was on her way to Drexel Law School. She was a senior when she graduated here, had been murdered. He wants to make sure that people are safe. He was rideshare companies to do more about safety and he wants people to be safe getting in them.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, ANCHOR, CNN: Oh, my gosh, it's remarkable, Dianne that they are already swinging into action trying to protect other people. This is such, I think, a relatable situation. So many of us get into cars nowadays with strangers, and I appreciate the cautionary tale that this has become. Thank you very much.

JOHN BERMAN, ANCHOR, CNN: Check the license plate, check the name of the driver.

CAMEROTA: I never have before.

BERMAN: Make sure the name -- the driver knows your name also. You have to do it. You have, too. CAMEROTA: Critics say a bill could be signed into law this week that

effectively bans abortion in Georgia. We have two state lawmakers here to debate the Heartbeat Bill, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAMEROTA: Georgia is one step away from having one of the most restrictive abortion laws in the country. Governor Brian Kemp is expected to sign the Heartbeat Bill into law this week. The measure would ban abortions after doctors detect a fetal heartbeat which can occur as early as six weeks into a pregnancy. Right now, women can seek abortions up to 20 weeks of pregnancy.

[08:20:01]

CAMEROTA: So joining us now to discuss this, we have Republican Georgia State Representative, Ed Setzler, a co-sponsor of the bill and Democratic Georgia State Senator Jen Jordan who spoke out against this bill on Saturday in a speech that has gone viral.

We appreciate both of you being here with your perspectives. Representative Setzler, I want to start with you, so let me just get this straight. A woman who seeks an abortion after six weeks when most women do not know yet that they are pregnant would go to jail?

REP. ED SETZLER (R), GEORGIA: No, as a matter of fact, we recognize that the life inside of a mother that has a human heartbeat is a living distinct human being and we believe it should be worthy of full legal protection.

It's just common sense that for centuries, the standard for life has been the presence of a heartbeat. We believe that should receive full recognition under Georgia law, and again, there's nothing in our law that changes any circumstances in which a woman could go ever go to jail. That's a mis-framing of the question.

CAMEROTA: Just explain it to me. So she will now be prosecuted, a woman will be prosecuted who seeks an abortion after six weeks, so why wouldn't she go to jail?

SETZLER: Nothing in our law changes the circumstances with criminal abortion. It simply moves from 20 weeks to the point of the presence of the fetal heartbeat with respect to the treatment of doctors and women. Because again, we recognize the presence of a human heartbeat is worthy of legal consideration.

CAMEROTA: I know where you're coming from, but is my -- my question is will women ever go to jail as a result of this?

SETZLER: Nothing in our -- in House Bill 481 changes the circumstances with respect to criminal exposure to women. In fact, we've put in an affirmative defense to women for emergency circumstances to provide an extra level of protection that does not exist under current Georgia laws.

CAMEROTA: Emergency circumstances, I mean, you're talking about a woman who is raped, I'm talking about women seeking abortion. Is that how you see it, Senator Jordan?

SEN. JEN JORDAN (D), GEORGIA STATE: Look, the very fact that they had to put in an affirmative defense from prosecution shows that this is a sea change in the law with respect to criminalizing women with respect to abortion.

And so, if you're not going to prosecute women, there's no need to have an affirmative defense. And so, this is something that we have not seen under Georgia law previously. It is something that is not seen in other states and it's absolutely chilling.

CAMEROTA: Your response, Representative Setzler?

SETZLER: Once again, we recognize that Georgia law provides vast protections to women who are seeking an abortion.

CAMEROTA: How? I'm sorry. I just want you to answer that.

SETZLER: But we recognize --

CAMEROTA: How does it -- it's moving up the date, and women and their doctors can be prosecuted now. So how does that -- what are the protections for women?

SETZLER: To be clear, we moved the date from 20 weeks to about six or seven weeks, when there is a point of a detectable fetal heartbeat and we put in an additional protection that doesn't exist under law. I mean, if you understand the way affirmative defenses work, there is an additional built in suspenders' level of protection that is not strictly needed by law, but we put it there just to provide this extra level of protection we felt that was --

Because we recognized, this is a balanced bill that balances the interest of the very difficult situation women find themselves in with the basic right to life of a child.

CAMEROTA: Yes, that -- go ahead Senator Jordan because that's not how you saw it. In fact, I just want to tell people a little bit about your speech that went viral because you shared something very personal about the heartbreak of pregnancy loss that you've experienced, and I just want to hear a little bit more about why you felt compelled to share that in such a public way.

JORDAN: You know, the reason that I felt it was important is because this whole issue has really been framed with respect to abortion, but it's much bigger than that. I mean, what we're talking about is the fundamental right to privacy that women have.

And so when you talk about abortion, people kind of go to their camps, but, look, women have miscarriages every day; women have fertility issues every day. We don't talk about it. That's just it. We're not out in front of clinics holding signs, anything like this, but this bill is going to affect every aspect of every woman's life in the State of Georgia.

And let me be clear, women are going to die because of this law because they cannot get appropriate healthcare from OBGYNs in this state, and that is really what's going to happen at the end of the day.

CAMEROTA: Senator Jordan, is it your impression that this bill will make women have to prove that they had a miscarriage when they have a pregnancy loss?

JORDAN: You know what, it could. The problem with this is that they haven't -- women have not been prosecuted in the state previous to this, even if they tried to get an abortion 20 weeks or over. Now, we are seeing a complete change, and I mean we've had the courts look at this issue before and say this is a Pandora's Box you do not want to open.

Because you can have a woman prosecuted if -- what if she was drinking and had no idea that she was pregnant?

[08:25:09]

JORDAN: What if she were smoking? What if she were doing some risky behaviors which caused a loss? What if she didn't get appropriate prenatal treatment and somehow that is grounds for criminal prosecution?

Like I said, we've never seen a law like this, and I understand, you know, the culture of life and really wanting to talk about protecting life, but at the end of the day, the lives of women, that's what's at issue here.

CAMEROTA: I mean, Representative Setzler, one of the problems, one of the things that jumped out at me is that women, you have an exception for women who are raped, but women have to present a police report.

The vast majority of rapes are not reported. There is no police report. You don't know what a woman's circumstance is when she shows up at a doctor's office.

SETZLER: Let me start by saying there are wild claims that have no basis in law. Senator Jordan, certainly she has a right to her own opinion, but not a right to her own facts.

This bill provides nothing but further protections for women from any kind of prosecution and that's with respect to miscarriages as well.

With respect to rapes, we recognize in Georgia, rape is a very serious claim. We allow, under House Bill 481, not just a woman, but anybody to be able to make this report to a police. It could be a mandatory report or even abortion clinic personnel are trained to make these kinds of reports. It's just factually not --

CAMEROTA: But you still need a police report.

SETZLER: It's just factually not true that it requires the woman to do this.

CAMEROTA: Do you need a police report or not? SETZLER: To allege something as serious as rape, somebody in the

cycle makes a police report and the woman can get around this prohibition because we recognize there's a living, distinct person worthy of protection ...

CAMEROTA: That's just not -- I mean, understand what you're saying, it's just not how --

SETZLER: ... that's living inside of her.

CAMEROTA: It' just not how in reality how it works.

SETZLER: That common sense tells us should worth of legal protection.

CAMEROTA: Senator Jordan, what do you want your colleague and the governor to know who is about to, it sounds like, sign it this week?

JORDAN: So this is what I want everybody to understand here. Not only is this something that's going to impact business in the state. We've already seen the film industry saying they're going to pull out.

But at the end of the day, 50% of our counties don't have OBGYNs, right? We are 50th in this country for maternal mortality. Doctors have told us they are going to leave. What do you think is going to happen? I mean, we are going to have less access to healthcare for these women. Women are going to die because they can't access health care.

So if you really care about life, what you should be focused on are the women of this state.

CAMEROTA: State Rep Ed Setzler; State Senator, Jen Jordan, thank you very much for the debate. Obviously, we will be watching this very closely. Thank you -- John.

BERMAN: All right, something is happening in Iowa. A whole lot is happening in Iowa. Sure the caucus is there, not tomorrow or the next day. But the energy there, what voters are telling us on the ground, that's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:30:00]

END