Return to Transcripts main page
HALA GORANI TONIGHT
Lawmakers to Vote Again on alternatives To May's Deal; Comedian Leads After First Round Of Presidential Vote; Terror Group Loses Territory But Ideology Lives on; Rustic Homestay Offers nature Seekers Old-World Charm; Frustrated Britons Ready To Commence With Split; British Lawmakers to Vote Again on Alternatives to May's Deal; Erdogan's Party Loses Big in Turkish Local Elections; Maduro Announces 30 Day Plan to Ration Electricity; Egypt Mediating Talks Between Israel and Hamas. Aired 2-3p ET
Aired April 1, 2019 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[14:00:00] HALA GORANI, CNN HOST: Hello, everyone. We're live in London. I'm Hala Gorani. Could Britain finally figure out a way out of the Brexit
impasse. In the next hour, MPs will vote on rival options to Theresa May's deal. Also, tonight a stunning loss for a man not used to loosing.
Turkey's President Erdogan suffering big and surprising losses in Turkish elections. Also, their territory is gone, we have a special report from
Iraq on life after ISIS. The clock is ticking towards the U.K. leaving the EU. Lawmakers will try once again to decide what kind of Brexit they want.
Right now, they are debating for alternative options to Theresa May's proposals, a customs union, a common market, another referendum and whether
Parliament could stop Brexit all together if it looks like the country is going to crash out.
However even if MPs managed to get behind one of those options it doesn't mean the Prime Minister will agree with them. They are nonbinding. We've
been here before. Let's talk a little bit -- well, let's we have -- I think they've gone for a different sound track tonight. Thank goodness for
that. Some variety in the musical score. Are any of the proposals likely to succeed tonight?
BIANCA NOBILO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The one which has the most energy around it is this -- this one proposed by Nick Boles is the Common Market 2.0.
And the reason why there's so much discussion about that is because the Labour party has been whipped to support it. It is the second biggest
party with the Conservatives support plus the Labour support, the Scottish National party has indicated they will also support it, that seems to have
the best chance of passing.
GORANI: Common market? That sounds a lot like Brexit in name only.
NOBILO: It does. It's incredibly soft version of Brexit. It would be involvement in a single market, freedom of movement and because that and
the membership after the European free trade doesn't remove the need for a backstop. You would need a customs arrangement. That makes it hard to see
how any hard Brexiteer would be able to support that. And they're hoping that that does get a majority, the impact of it could scare those who still
hadn't supported the Prime Minister's deal into backing it later this week.
GORANI: She is still pushing that deal that was defeated three times. She has three cabinet meetings. What's happening there. Where does she stand
NOBILO: I think what's happened today is facts that have been obviously for years now have come home to roost. For example, the chief whip said
that every since Theresa May lost her majority in the 2017 election, it was obvious from then on she did not have the Parliamentary arithmetic to
deliver on the kind of Brexit she promised, no customs union, no single market and that would have been the opportunity for her to say, we need to
look cross party. It's going to have to be a soft Brexit. I don't have the numbers. And equally she's had these divisions in the cabinet since
about that time. Her cabinet was made up of Brexiters and remainers by design, so she would be --
GORANI: This is hindsight is 2020. It's Monday morning quarterbacking. Now we know what would have been the wiser more productive approach but
back then it seemed as though keeping the party united, satisfying the hard Brexiters was the strategy.
NOBILO: Whenever it gets put to a vote and it's in black and white, there's nowhere to hide. And that's what's happening this week.
GORANI: Stay with us. We'll be talking to you of course throughout the evening as these votes are cast. There is the opposition in all this.
Many lawmakers have been pushing for a second referendum on Brexit. The foreign secretary says that now people are better informed, they should get
another chance to vote on the whole question of Brexit.
I think that basically anything that now gets through Parliament is going to be controversial and so I think probably the best way of dealing with
this is to say to the people, now that you know what leave means as opposed to have all the unicorns and promises you were given before, this is what
leave could look like, do you want that or do you want to remain, and that I think is probably the best way of going ahead.
[14:05:00] GORANI: Michael Howard is a former leader of the conservative party. He joins me now. Thank you for being with us.
MICHAEL HOWARD, FORMER LEADER OF THE CONSERVATIVE PARTY: Good evening, Hala.
GORANI: You've been quoted as saying I would have done things differently with regards to Brexit. What did you mean by that?
HOWARD: Well, I think throughout the negotiations we've let the European Union take the initiative. We've almost approached the negotiations as
though we were a supplicant. And we were never. The first mistake was at the beginning when we accepted the sequencing which the European Union
wanted to have, success the withdrawal agreement first, come to an agreement on withdrawal and talk about the future trade agreement. We
should never have agreed to that.
GORANI: You thought that was a mistake on the part of Theresa May? But didn't Parliament agree to that time table. The order in which things are
HOWARD: That was a decision taken by the government. And that was a mistake. I would have said to them right at the beginning either we
discuss both things or once or let's prepare for no deal now and have two years to prepare for it so there's as little friction as possible.
GORANI: Does any part of you regret that David Cameron called this referendum? 2016?
HOWARD: Not at all. I think the referendum was necessary. The problem has been that Parliament outsourced the decision to the people but didn't
like the chance it go at. Most members of Parliament voted to remain, some of them have fully accepted and embraced the result, some of them have looked at it as an
exercise in damaged limitation and far too many of them have tried to --
GORANI: Why if Theresa May and the government can get two, three, four votes on a deal that's unpopular, can the people not get another say not on
Brexit of itself, but on the terms of the departure.
HOWARD: That's not what is proposed. People want on the battle paper to be no Brexit. So, it would be on Brexit itself. And everybody was told at
the time of the referendum in 2016, this was is one and only referendum. This is your time to make a decision. And they made their decision.
GORANI: Were they told the terms. They were never told the terms. It was a leave or remain question and there are gradations of leave. Why not ask
the country again?
HOWARD: Because people want -- the people who want a second referendum are people who want to reserve the decision that was made in the first
referendum. Nobody wants to leave, wants a second referendum. They are bad losers.
GORANI: That being said, there's still a big open question about what kind of Brexit this country can coalesce around. Among leavers, there's a lot
of division, just among the proposals today, you have a customs union, a Norway 2.0, a fresh --
HOWARD: None of those have been put for by leavers.
GORANI: What would leavers coalesce around?
HOWARD: I don't know. I'll tell you what I would do, I don't know whether people --
GORANI: What would you do?
HOWARD: I would say we are leaving without the kind of agreement that has been under discussion, we're leaving on the 12th and -- but let's have a
standstill for a year. We won't exercise any -- we won't put any tariffs on your goods, we hope you won't put any tariffs on our goods and let's use
that year to negotiate a proper free-trade agreement along the lines of the agreement the EU has with Canada.
GORANI: But then you would have to take part in EU elections.
HOWARD: No, because we'd leave. We'd leave on April 12th.
GORANI: OK. I see.
HOWARD: And then we would have a year --
GORANI: With no deal.
HOWARD: But an agreement that neither of us would tariff the other's goods. And things would carry on much as they are now for a year while we
GORANI: You would have to have the EU on board.
HOWARD: Yes, you would. Very sensitive agreement from their point of view too.
GORANI: Would you be in favor of a general election, there are rumblings - -
HOWARD: I don't quite see what that's going to solve.
[14:10:01] GORANI: It would potentially mean even a worse situation for the conservative party, wouldn't it?
HOWARD: Could be. Who knows?
GORANI: You would not be in favor of that. And this proposal here that you believe would be also in the best interest of EU on leaving April 12th
and having a year, what would change then? None of the ingredients that are causing the current distress would change?
HOWARD: We wouldn't have this argument over the withdrawal agreement. Believe would be also in the best interest of EU on leaving April 12th and
having a year, what would change then?
We wouldn't have this argument over the withdrawal agreement. We would withdraw, we would leave. And then we can start talking about a future
trade. Actually, you might find it easier to get a consensus on the future trading relationship than we have so far.
GORANI: Lastly, if Theresa May --
HOWARD: More difficult.
GORANI: You have a point there. If Theresa May can't get this deal through a fourth time, at some point, does she need to accept that she
HOWARD: She has accepted that. She has said she's going to --
GORANI: Only if her deal gets through.
HOWARD: Even before that. She said she's --
GORANI: That could be in many years.
HOWARD: The only question is when she resigns. But she said she's going to resign and I suppose if he fails to get her agreement through, that will
happen sooner rather than later.
GORANI: Thank you so much for joining us on CNN. I appreciate your time. Thank you. Brexit aside, another big political decision is in limbo in
Turkey. President Erdogan's party took its first electoral pounding. It has lost local elections in two of the three largest cities in the country.
But the biggest local race in Istanbul is still contested but close enough that is not necessarily good news for the President. The elections were
widely seen on a referendum on Mr. Erdogan, what would those results mean for him? Thanks for being with us. First of all, pretty surprising losses
for the President. What are behind these losses this time around for Erdogan?
SONER CAGAPTAY, WASHINGTON INSTITUTE FOR NEAR EAST POLICY: The economy, Turkey's economy grew in leaps and bounds under Erdogan, he delivered
phenomenal performance in terms of good governance. But that growth came to a halt this year and the economy is in recession, meaning two quarters
of no growth and I think that pain is being felt across the country. On top of that, the opposition, this time, rallied behind popular candidates
and opposition factions that were usually disparaged groups. So, they also did a good race, competing with favorable candidates which helped their
fortunes at the ballot box.
GORANI: So, I guess the question is, if this was a referendum on Erdogan, there's the economy, there's of course that attempted coup a few years ago,
the mass arrests, the blaming of foreign agents and a big divide between rural Turkey and the big city centers as well. It's almost like a --
CAGAPTAY: That does sound right especially given with Istanbul being contested, Mr. Erdogan's party has lost almost all of the country's ten
large cities minus one or two. That's a pretty significant loss for him given that he's -- the majority of Turkey's economy is not necessarily
behind him. The elections are not about national government. There are no elections for Parliament. This is for local government. I think what is
really at stake is a symbolic defeat. If he loses Istanbul, it's where, remember, this is where Mr. Erdogan started his political rise when he
became the mayor, a position from which he went to become Turkey's Prime Minister and then finally becoming President in 2015 and becoming the most
powerful politician. It's also the place of his birth. It represents 40 percent of Turkey's net worth and losing Istanbul would mean losing the
machine of his political party. This is not a defeat he can take very easily. He hasn't conceded right now. Turkey needs to and it the six-year
period of elections. Turkey had seven elections which has been completely polarizing for the country's landscape. If he were to make a concession
speech notwithstanding his party's right to challenge the income, I think this would signal to the markets that Turkey's exiting this unusually bad
period and it would be opening a new page for the country overall.
[14:15:00] GORANI: So, it's a bit too early to say that this is the beginning of the end for Erdogan and his party.
CAGAPTAY: Absolutely. I think number --
GORANI: Because he doesn't face national elections until 2023.
CAGAPTAY: Right it's definitely not the beginning of the end. He doesn't face elections that could end his government for another four years. It
was just let's say an informal referendum on his popularity, remember that his party is still the most popular in Turkey. What is at stake, they have
lost control of majority of the cities, maybe even Istanbul, and I think that suggests you're going to see a country in which Erdogan controls
central government but the opposition controls the big cities. The last time the left controlled Turkey's big cities was 25 years ago. That's when
bill Clinton was in the White House. So, this would be a complete change for Turkey's population.
GORANI: Very interesting development in Turkey. Thanks so much for joining us. I appreciate your time. Still to come tonight, anger in
Venezuela as electricity, water and patience run out, even some of President Maduro's supporters are turning against him at this stage. We'll
bring you live reports from the area next. And the man leading in the race to be Ukraine's next President has a lot of experience playing a President
on television. We'll be right back.
GORANI: In Venezuela, President Nicolas Maduro has announced a 30-day plan to ration electricity. Power outrages have crippled the country and
hospitals are some of the places that are being hit the hardest. Paula Newton reports on the risks that doctors and nurses are taking just to
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PAULA NEWTON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Take a close look. This is an emergency pediatric ward in Venezuela, overcrowded, hot, run down, rudimentary
treatment everywhere you look, and from nearly every child, a harrowing story. Like this one. This lady has not named her baby girl born in early
March during the first countrywide blackout.
She's restless. She needs several tests and a scan of her little head but it can't be done here. Scans, x-rays, the blood lab, haven't been
operational for months. There are shortages of every medicine and medical supply, not even the special formula that malnourished babies need. As we
walk through the wards there's no sanitation, no water, little power. These conditions are normal in Venezuela. We have seen them again and
again in hospital after hospital. And now this. Brush fires just outside the hospital. No water, they are left to exhaust themselves, smoke and ash
coming in through the windows. We have seen them again and again in hospital after hospital. And now this. Brush fires just outside the
hospital. No water, they are left to exhaust themselves, smoke and ash coming in through the windows.
CNN contacted the hospital administers and the health ministry about the conditions and did not receive a reply. When we have an emergency, she
tells me, we have no way of resolving the situation. We have to improvise. It's like we're combat doctors. And doctors tell us they're at war in more
ways than one. This pediatrician says she does not want to be identified. She says doctors and other medical staff are threatened with dismissal and
sometimes physically abused if they speak out. It's been three years since this doctor risked here career to give me a rare look into a crumbling
Venezuelan hospital. He's not only been fired for speaking out, but just a few weeks ago he tweeted that authorities had come to arrest him after he
met with a visiting U.N. mission to raise the alarm about hospital conditions. He's still in hiding.
DR. ALEJANDRO CRESPO: It's become worst.
NEWTON: This doctor is a friend of his and he says there can be no debate. Venezuela's health system has collapsed.
CRESPO: You can ask the mother, they're not going to lie to you, they have their kids dying in a hospital bed because of a lack of medicine.
NEWTON: Medical staff they feel as they're sent into battle every day knowing they will lose. Venezuela's political conflict ranges, this
remains its front line. Paula newton, CNN, Venezuela.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: David McKenzie is following all of this from Caracas with more and very, very difficult living conditions for ordinary Venezuelans and some of
them even supporters of President Maduro are really, really starting to get fed up at this point.
DAVID MCKENZIE, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Hala. And I should say former supporters of Maduro because we have been on the
streets in the last couple of days and certainly in areas that were traditionally powerhouse areas for the regime, people are angry,
frustrated. The primary issue here is for the healthy, life is a struggle, electricity, blackouts have been happening throughout the capital and in
the rest of the country. There were also protests over water. That is a big issue. We were at a protest just yesterday here in the capital. Soon
after we left there was an unidentified uniformed gunman walking around shooting into the vicinity of the protestors. There's this gangster
element in the capital. People who are aligned with the state who have used their power to quell assent. A large number of people, they're there
right now collecting water from both lower and middle-class families trying to get the things they need to survive. Here's what one man had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (through translator): Us Venezuelans, we're very update. Listen, brother, we don't have power, we don't have water.
Services work badly. It's -- I don't know how to explain. If it was for me, we would have forced this government out, five people come forward,
they get killed and nothing is achieved.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MCKENZIE: The problem is that Nicolas Maduro is holding on and it seems the military is behind him. Hala?
David McKenzie live in Venezuela. Thanks very much.
[14:25:00] The party of Israel's Prime Minister is trailing in polls but there could be -- if you're Benjamin Netanyahu, a silver lining. A poll by
Channel 13 news shows that Mr. Netanyahu's party is projected to win 28 seats compared to 32 seats. Neither party has enough support to governor
on his own and Mr. Netanyahu appears to have an easier path. Israel is easing some restrictions on Gaza after a very tense weekend. Palestinians
are mourning more lives lost. Our Michael Holmes is in Gaza with more.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL HOLMES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: After the protests, three funerals in Gaza on Sunday, this one for 17-year-old shot by Israeli shoulders while
taking part in the Great March of Return protest on Saturday. The death and injury toll there lower than other weekly protests at the border.
They're both showing restraint in pursuit of something bigger. Egyptian- mediated talks continue to lighten restrictions on Gaza and its residents in return for no rockets or violent protests in Gaza.
GHAZI HAMAD, SENIOR HAMAS OFFICIAL: From time to time we'll find calm after a confrontation. This cycle will not be broken until we achieve a
complete political solution.
HOLMES: It's difficult for outsiders to fully comprehend how tough like is for Gazans. 70 percent of people under the age of 30 are unemployed.
There are shortages of everything from fuel to even clean water. And electricity comes and goes. And sewage flows untreated.
All of those things are on the table and nothing is locked in. And there are many in Israel who feel Hamas should be given nothing. It's only a
week since a rocket was fired hitting a House near Tel-Aviv. Israel's education minister expressed sentiments shared by many of advertise fellow
NAFTALI BENNETT, EDUCATION MINISTER, ISRAEL: Hamas has established full terrorist state in Gaza time and again they're initiating unprovoked
attacks on the Israeli citizens, villages, homes and cities. It's time for them to feel the full thrust of Israel's force and they will pay the price
for what they did.
HOLMES: One positive sign at the border crossing closed for a week because of rocket fire from Gaza, open on Sunday, goods permitted by Israel. If
concessions come from both sides and they stick, it will give short term relief but not a long-term solution. As the funerals continue, the reality
is that the restrictions on Gaza have been eased before and quickly reimposed when someone does something. Any understanding between Israel
and Gaza could quickly fall apart again. But perhaps for now, some sliver of hope of some relief among the suffering Gazans.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: Still to come tonight, as British MPs weigh Brexit options, a leading CEO saying the country is turning into a laughingstock. The
economic toll that the process alone is wreaking on Britain. Next.
[14:30:44] HALA GORANI, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST: Parliament, once again, hoping to steer away forward for Brexit. MPs will soon vote on four
possible alternatives to the prime minister's repeatedly rejected deal. Although this is the confusion and uncertainty are having real economic
impacts. Goldman Sachs says it's shrinking the GDP and costing the country millions a week.
Company say the deadlock is beginning to affect their bottom line in a real way. And remember, Brexit hasn't happened yet. This is just how the
uncertainty is destabilizing the country and its economy. Anna Stewart has been looking into those numbers.
So, Anna, talk to me about several reports that all come to the same conclusion which is that this process is costing the British economy.
ANNA STEWART, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. There's a big fear about a no-deal Brexit and the economic and financial consequences that
would have. And we're looking at economy here and on companies, specifically.
Now, we've had several stories out today. Every day brings another Brexit line. We've got EasyJet. Now, they have said -- it was a trading update.
They said that they're confirming their loss for the last six months. We knew this, but the real headline for us is the fact that they're looking
ahead to the future and saying that demand is looking really soft in the summer and they are putting that down to Brexit. People not sure whether
they should book flights on us.
Second story is Siemens. You mentioned before the break, this amazing warning from the CEO of the U.K., Juergen Maier. A real rebuke for
Let me bring you a quote, he says, "The world is watching. And where the U.K. used to be a beacon of stability, we are now becoming a laughing
stock. I personally no longer defend the action of our parliament when reporting to my managing board."
GORANI: OK. But Brexit supporters will say, project fear. This is just - - these are the excuses of companies that are underperforming. However, some would reply but you have reports from independent think tanks and
experts who are putting an actual figure, who are attaching an actual figure to how much the process, not Brexit itself, because it hasn't
happened. The process has cost the U.K. economy so far.
STUART: And you really do and there are two today. Goldman Sachs and the CER, both say that Brexit, up to this point, has already cost the U.K. 2.5
percent of GDP. They've done a doppelganger economy. They've looked at where it where it would be and where is it now.
Now, the CER, they've also said that, yes --
GORANI: And that is what? Tell our viewers what the CER --
STEWART: That is the Centre of Economic Reform.
GORANI: OK. And they're independent of the --
STEWART: They are an independent group and they had said, yes. You know what? The treasury forecasts the immediate aftermarket Brexit, we're
wrong. What they said independent forecasts, like their own, have been right.
This is real money we're talking about and they also break it down by week. How much is Brexit costing the British economy each week? We have Goldman
Sachs coming in at $790 million, the CER, $470 million, Bank of England, $1 billion a week. Depending on how much you bring into this can see the
GORANI: How did they calculate that? What's the methodology?
STEWART: So it's the public borrowing costs. It's also things like consumer spending polls. We're also looking at business investments. They
drag in different bits. So they've all come to the same conclusion on the GDP effect but the costs, depending on which one you follow, is up to a
billion dollars a week.
GORANI: Not one of them have found that this is actually benefitting the U.K.
STEWART: No. And the only -- I can give you some light at the end of the tunnel, if you like.
STEWART: OK. Here we go. Goldman Sachs, they have said that if there was a transition deal, like a status quo, you'd got some pull back from this
economic decline. If there was a remain, total bounce back, no-deal Brexit. You're looking at a significant slump, they say.
GORANI: All right. Well, Brexit supporters will say, it didn't happen when they predicted it the first time around.
STEWART: And it's not all numbers.
GORANI: Yes. No, it's not.
Anna Stewart, thanks very much. We'll see you a bit later.
Check us out on Facebook, facebook.com/halagoranicnn. And on Twitter, @HalaGorani.
Turning now to Ukraine, where the presidential election is playing out like the plot of the movie or a television show. A comedian whose experience in
politics is limited to playing a president on television is leading the first round of voting to become the actual president of the country with 90
percent of the vote counted.
Volodymyr Zelensky appears headed to a runoff against Ukraine's incumbent president. Our Moscow Bureau chief, Nathan Hodge has been following what
is turning into an amazing case of life imitating art.
So, what are the chances then that this candidate will become the next president of Ukraine?
[14:35:06] NATHAN HODGE, CNN MOSCOW BUREAU CHIEF: Well, Hala, this may be looking like the plot of a comedy, but it's a deadly serious business for
Ukrainians whoever becomes the president, after what looks likely to be a runoff election on April the 21st will inherent a country that's at war and
has been struggling economically.
Now, we're just about 90 percent of the votes have been counted and by that tally, Zelensky has gotten about 30 percent of the votes, so no one has
crossed that 50 percent threshold to have an outright win. But he's gotten about double the votes that the incumbent Petro Poroshenko has gotten in
this, what appears to be a first round of voting.
So it's been fascinating to watch because, as you had mentioned, Zelensky is a complete political newcomer. He's only played a president on
television and he's tapped into a lot of voter discontent that we've seen over the past few years. A lot of unhappiness with the course that the
country has taken since the Maidan Revolution five years ago, the annexation of Crimea by Russia, and as had mentioned, the ongoing economic
struggles in Ukraine, Hala.
GORANI: Yes. And we've seen this type of trend in other countries obviously with entertainment figures, not least Donald Trump, winning the
most important political races in their countries as well.
But I wonder in Ukraine, how would that change the calculus with regards to Russia and Crimea and all the other frustrations that ordinary Ukrainians
HODGE: Well, Hala, I think a lot of the observers have asked just that questions. How would a president Zelensky deal with Ukraine's much larger
and nuclear armed neighbor, that's Russia, how seriously could he be taken as a commander in chief?
Poroshenko has run on his national security platform. He's a man who's often appeared wearing military fatigues on visits out to the front and
he's playing himself as the person who is best positioned to be opposed to Vladimir Putin.
So I think a lot of people are going to be watching to see. But supporters of Zelensky have said what they like about him is they see a blank slate,
somebody to start over from scratch, essentially, who wouldn't have a lot of the political baggage. So it's going to be fascinating to see, Hala.
GORANI: Right. No political baggage at all in this case. Thanks, Nathan Hodge in Moscow.
And by the way, a programming note for you. Christian Amanpour will have an exclusive interview with former FBI director James Comey on our program
tomorrow. Tune in to hear his take on what we've learned about the Mueller report so far. That will air tomorrow.
Still to come tonight, the war against ISIS may be over on the battlefield, but experts say it is inevitable that the group will reemerge in some form
or another. We have an exclusive report from Iraq, next.
[14:40:05] GORANI: After years of brutal fighting, ISIS has once sprawling caliphate across Syria and Iraq has been reduced to almost nothing.
Territorially. But that doesn't mean the group has gone away as CNN's Arwa Damon reports, it appears position to rebuild and it would want to spread
terror once again.
She spoke with ISIS fighters, families, and some of the terrorists victims about what could be ahead. Here's her exclusive report.
ARWA DAMON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This is western Iraq's no man's land. Historic terror hiding grounds, hard to
control terrain, far-flung areas without a permanent security presence. It is in these lands that, once night falls, ISIS gangs attack, kill, and
plunder with impunity.
We're heading to the site of a recent horrific ISIS assault. Within minutes of veering off the main road and onto a dirt track, we arrive at
what is little more than a cluster of mud homes.
Death has never come to 72-year-old Yousef Harwas (ph) village this way.
DAMON (on camera): There are still bloodstains on the -- on the ground.
DAMON (voice-over): Yousef's older brother and five other relatives were murdered in the dead of night just days ago.
DAMON (on camera): She's been cleaning up or trying to, at least.
DAMON (voice-over): Fatma (ph) is one of the victims' relatives.
DAMON (on camera): This is how they found one of the bodies of the women. But we're being told is that she was taken to here, the shower area, and
this is where they just executed her.
DAMON (voice-over): Despite having been declared defeated, ISIS has not died. It is lurking in the shadows, waiting for the groundwork that will
allow it to rise again.
Iraq Security Forces have rounded up tens of thousands of accused ISIS members. In Baghdad, we meet these four men who have already been
sentenced to death. They admit they were a part of the terrorist network. Two were fighters, one a nurse, and one transported suicide bombers.
Like all captured fighters we have spoken to over the years, they, too, say joining ISIS was a mistake. But this is how one of them justifies it.
DAMON (voice-over): That sentiment of being abused by the Shia-led government, of a desire for revenge, was and will continue to be central to
ISIS' ability to seduce people into its ranks.
When we asked if they still believe in its ideology -- the question is ominously met with silence. The men unwilling to immediately condemn the
twisted thinking that gave them a scene in these photographs -- such intoxicating power, a purpose, a sense of control over their lives and the
lives of others.
In a nearby building is the courthouse where those, on this day, awaiting trial don't want to appear on camera. But their cases are classic examples
of the Sunni population's grievances.
DAMON (on camera): There are six men here who are facing terrorism charges. Half of them say the charges against them are politically
motivated going back to 2011. The other half aren't even sure exactly what they're being accused of. But they all say that they were forced into
confession under torture.
DAMON (voice-over): Human rights organizations have long criticized Iraq for its culture of rampant torture and flawed trials. But Judge Abdul
Satar Bayraqdar says Iraq upholds international standards and abides by its own anti-terrorism laws.
DAMON (voice-over): The issue is that also caught in the dragnet are those who are innocent, victims of Iraq's historic polarizing dynamics pitting
its Sunni and Shia populations against each other.
[14:45:04] It's a dynamic that is amplified at the sprawling refugee camps for those who fled the fighting but are still unable to go back home.
For those who were affiliated with or just suspected of being affiliated with ISIS are afraid of retribution. In one tent, we meet the parents of
three men who were detained and then disappeared into Iraq's murky judicial system.
Their mother, Sham (ph), says she hasn't seen or heard from her sons since they were picked up three years ago.
As she talks, her anguish becomes overwhelming. She doesn't know where they are or if they are even alive.
We meet one of her detained son's children. Their mother doesn't want to appear on camera.
DAMON (on camera): The kids are having problems. They're being harassed by other children who know that their father isn't here. And they're
telling them, oh, your dad is ISIS. Your dad is ISIS.
DAMON (voice-over): Their mother tells them it's a lie, but it still tarnishes their young lives, condemns them to a life of isolation and
rejection. Theirs is but one story, one example of what many in the Sunni population believe is part of a revenge campaign by the Shia-led
government. Another emotional paradigm ISIS can prey on.
It's a sentiment that reverberates throughout these destitute camps with their prison-like feel. Dreams traced in dust, the sense of despair.
Especially vulnerable are the children of those whose fathers, brothers, uncles, innocent or guilty, were disappeared, killed, or detained.
District Director Saleh Hassan (ph) says the government cannot afford to abandon the younger generations.
The hatred that festers within them instills yet another complex emotion that ISIS can easily manipulate.
There is little that has been done to emotionally or physically rebuild the ruins left behind by Iraq's war on ISIS. And so far, the government has
not dispelled the factors that allowed ISIS to emerge -- the sense of abandonment, of being perpetually punished, arbitrarily targeted. Unless
that changes, the next incarnation of terror seems destined to haunt this country once more.
Arwa Damon, CNN, Mosul, Iraq.
GORANI: It will happen again if nothing changes. More to come, including a different view of Brexit.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think Theresa may stuck in a rut. She needs to make a decision. They're just sitting and squabbling like children.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: What they're saying hundreds of kilometers from parliament, next.
[14:50:57] GORANI: Now for something a little different, all this month, we're exploring India's diverse array of travel possibilities. In this
edition, we take you to a retreat that has been used for more than 150 years where nature seekers live like locals.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tucked away in verdant mountains and teeming with bird life, Bhimtal is part of a network of hill stations. These were upland
settlements founded by British colonialists in the 1800s as a way of escaping the punishing heat of India's summer.
Today, generations after India's independence, many of these colonial hill station houses have been converted into rustic home stays like the home of
Padmini Smetacek. It's a former tea estate with a history of more than 160 years what she likes to call, The Retreat.
PADMINI SMETACEK, OWNER, THE RETREAT BHIMTAL: This house has been in use ever since it was built in the 1860s. Somebody or the other has always
lived here. So we've never had this place lying (INAUDIBLE) or anything like that. So it's a loved place, I would say.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In 1939, Fred Smetacek, Padmini's her father-in-law, fled Nazi, Germany for India. He became a successful businessman in
Kolkata before purchasing the Jones Estate in Bhimtal in 1951 and opening up his home to guests. A homestay that his family has been running ever
Over time, hill stations like Bhimtal have retained their essence as holiday destinations. They're a retreat into an abundance of nature with
the vestiges of history still intact. But perhaps the biggest appeal of all to a homestay like Smetaceks, is that it feels like home.
SMETACEK: Increasingly, the guests I get here tell me, we don't want to go to hotels for holidays, we want to go to homestays because the experience
is personal. We learn about the place. We get to eat the real food of the locality.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Alongside other homestay owners from around the area, Smetacek swap stories and tips cultivated from a lifetime of hospitality
and with a spread of locally sourced vegetables, like mustard leaf, cucumber and beans, lunch at The Retreat is served.
GORANI: We want to talk more about Brexit. Are you getting tired of hearing that phrase? If you are, you're not alone. A lot of people here
in the U.K. have experienced what you could call Brexit burnout. We've had nearly two years of discussions about the hows and the whys of leaving the
European. And now, some people may be thinking just go already.
CNN's Hadas Gold is in the heart of leave country and she's been speaking to people there very much outside of the Westminster bubble here on what
they want to see going forward. Hadas.
HADAS GOLD, CNN MEDIA & BUSINESS REPORTER: Hala, you're right. This area is a heavily leave area. We're in Stockton-on-Tees, which voted more than
60 percent in favor of leaving in that 2016 referendum.
This area has rather high unemployment, double the national average. Part of that is because of the declining steel industry here. We've had a major
steel plant that closed down in the last few years. Thousands of jobs were lost. And a lot of the people we spoke to said that they partly blame the
U.K. being part of the E.U. as to why they think it's been hard to reinvigorate this area because they say regulations have kept the U.K. for
be able to be more sovereign over its business interest. And once they can break free from the E.U., then they think that could help improve this
Yesterday, we spent the day just up the coast a little bit in Hartlepool which where we spoke to locals as well as the M.P. there who is one of
those Labour M.P.s representing a leave region and he is in favor of working through the Brexit. He's not in favor of a second referendum.
Take a listen.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't think anyone knows. And I think the worst case is the people are supposed to know and parliament don't know either. So
it's all just a political game, isn't it? Like no one knows what to do. People are just trying to scale points, something like that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think they've got to move on with Brexit. It's been going on since 2016. I think Theresa may stuck in a rut. She needs to
make a decision. They're just sitting and squabbling like children.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Get out. Let's get out. We survive two world wars. We're fighters and we'll -- yes, we'll go down, but we'll climb out again.
GOLD (on-camera): Mike Hill, the M.P. for the area, said his constituents don't want a second referendum.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But when you look at the polls and you hear people saying, you know, that the people now want a people's vote. The polls have
never closed that much. They've narrowed naturally at times, but not sufficiently to say this town now wants remained, it doesn't. It clearly
[14:55:04] GOLD: Has the opinion of your constituents hardened in the last few weeks when it comes to Brexit?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Quite rightly so and understandably so. And the people are upset. There is upset in article, as they are right across the
GOLD: And, Hala, this region, not only are they frustrated with what's happening in parliament, but they really see Brexit as their salvation, as
the way that they can break out of what they see as sort of a rut when it comes to a lack of jobs and a lack of business opportunities and that's why
they so desperately want Westminster -- they want parliament to just get on with the process and get them out because they say that's what the people
voted for, Hala.
GORANI: And what do they want from their politicians? I mean, would they rather have the prime minister resign or another election or what would
they like to see happen there?
GOLD: I mean, you definitely get a sense from people that they're OK with a no-deal. They think that that would be fine. They just want to get out
in any sense. They're, honestly, just very tired of hearing about Brexit. They're tired about hearing about the politicians squabbling like children
as that one gentleman told us.
They really sort of discussed with the whole process. We did hear some sort of split opinions on Theresa May. Some people said that she was just
dealt a poison chalice. One person told us. And they said that is just has a hard job in front of her. She's doing her best.
Others were very disappointed in her and wanted even harder right Brexiteers. We heard one say that he would be happy to have Jacob Rees-
Moog in charge or Nigel Farage in charge of the process. But at the end of the day, what they want here is just Brexit to happen because they thought
it was going to happen years ago.
GORANI: All right. Thanks very much, Hadas Gold in Stockton-on-Tees, is it? Thanks for watching tonight. And we'll see you, Hadas, a little bit
later. Stay with CNN. "QUEST MEANS BUSINESS" is up next.