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HALA GORANI TONIGHT
Parliament Tied in Vote on Taking Control of Brexit Process; May and Corbyn to Devise Unity Plan; Interview with Jens Stoltenberg, NATO Secretary General; Brunei Stoning Laws Draw International Outrage. Aired 2-3p ET
Aired April 3, 2019 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[14:00:00] HALA GORANI, CNN HOST: Hello, everyone. Live from CNN London. I'm Hala Gorani, tonight.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN BERCOW, SPEAKER OF PARLIAMENT: The ayes to the right, 310. The noes to the left, 310. Order.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: The chaos over Brexit leaves the British Parliament literally deadlocked. We'll have that story. Also, tonight, fresh from his speech
to Congress, the NATO Secretary General tells me to separate what President Trump says from what President Trump does. Also, this hour, despite fierce
global condemnation, Brunei is enacting strict new laws that make gay sex and adultery punishable by stoning to death.
So far with Brexit, it's felt like MPs have only been able to agree to disagree. Having repeatedly failed to decide on anything when given the
opportunity, ambivalence was taken to dramatic new levels when Parliament was tied on whether or not to take control of Brexit again.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BERCOW: The ayes to the right, 310, the noes to the left, 310. Order. In accordance with precedent and on the principle that important decisions
should not be taken except by a majority, I cast my vote with the noes. The noes have it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: That means there will be no further indicative votes at least for now. Moments after that decision, a vote aimed at preventing a no-deal
Brexit was again decided by a single ballot, this one in favor. Not present for any of this were the Prime Minister or the opposition leader.
They were locked in talks about how to break this Brexit deadlock. It's an emergency.
We're days away from potentially a no deal exit. A spokesperson for the British Prime Minister said the talks were constructive and both sides
showed flexibility. We did hear from Jeremy Corbyn just a few minutes ago on British Television, and he said there's still an awful lot of talking
that still needs to be done.
Bianca Nobilo and Erin McLaughlin are with me. Bianca. Let's talk -- this is the most important development here as we have the Prime Minister
talking to the leader of the opposition, finally reaching out across the aisle, across party efforts. We're days away.
It doesn't sound like a lot of progress was made today on some finding a consensus.
BIANCA NOBILO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: There seems to be a distinct lack of urgency. The Prime Minister had made overtures to Jeremy Corbyn before but
this is the first time that constructive talks happened between the two of them. There were several present key members of Jeremy Corbyn's team and
the Prime Minister's team. Corbyn said he felt the talks were useful but not conclusive.
So that doesn't inspire huge amounts of optimism. He thought he would have seen more changes in the Prime Minister's position than he was presented
with when they spoke. It does mean that time is running out and I spoke to a lawmaker earlier today and he said he was concerned there was a sense of
complacency. Because Britain avoided the first cliff edge on the 29th of March. Everybody breathed a sigh of relief. But now they're facing
another one in just a few days.
GORANI: Where is there a possible area where they can agree on a deal that could get support from both parties here?
NOBILO: There is in the Venn diagram of May's possible positions and Corbyn's, there's some overlap. Jeremy Corbyn said he's committed to a
permanent customs union, dynamic alignment with a single market.
GORANI: Brexiteers would hate that.
NOBILO: They would loathe that. The problem is even though Jeremy Corbyn and Theresa May could potentially find some common down, after all the
backstop is essentially a customs union, with regulatory alignment which Theresa May herself asked for and negotiated. There's room for maneuver
there. Also, Jeremy Corbyn wants to see workers rights protected.
Theresa May has moved towards his position. And made attempts to appease him there. The problem is, and we've seen this, even in the hours after
they met, even if they manage to find some common ground, given the urgency, given the state of national crisis and immediately after there was
a push from Jeremy Corbyn's key members of his party and also trade unions saying that a second referendum needs to be tacked onto whatever it is that
[14:05:00] GORANI: We don't know that Jeremy Corbyn is in fact necessarily in favor of that.
NOBILO: But the Prime Minister is equally pulled in the opposite direction by her own Brexiteers. So even if they did manage to intersect, they're
both pulled across the opposite side.
GORANI: Erin McLaughlin is in Brussels. What are you hearing about the way forward as far as the EU is concerned? Now that Theresa May is saying
to the leader of the opposition, let's talk, let's find some sort of compromise here.
ERIN MCLAUGHLIN, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT, LONDON BUREAU: The EU is very much in the mode of watching and waiting and seeing what exactly comes
out of this process. We did hear from the President of the European Commission earlier today in an address to Parliament in Brussels focused on
Brexit say something that would likely be music to Theresa May's ears, and that's that short extension she wants to May 22nd, is possible but there's
a condition, take a listen to what he had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TUSK, PRESIDENT, EUROPEAN COMMISSION (through translator): 12th of April is the final date for possible approval. If the House of Commons
does not adopt a stance before that date, no short-term extension would be possible.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MCLAUGHLIN: So, if Theresa May is able to get this over the line, the withdrawal deal as well as the political declaration in time for that April
12th cliff edge, that short extension to May 22nd is still possible.
There's plenty of skepticism, especially given what Bianca was talking about there that Theresa May will be able to pull this off, but they're
going to see what she comes forward with for that critical summit which is Wednesday of next week, if she comes forward without a plan, the talk here
in Brussels is about the possibility of that long extension, but there will be strings attached, I'm told, Hala.
GORANI: Erin, thanks very much. Bianca, is there some sort of realization now that if there's no consensus with the opposition, no plan that the U.K.
can put to the EU by next week that everyone can agree on, that we're looking at a long extension now, not just two weeks, maybe a year, maybe
NOBILO: It does seem the most plausible. I was speaking to a conservative member of Parliament who is fairly moderate and he said that he thinks an
ascending order, the deal between Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn agreed, then a no deal next week because they haven't been able to agree on
GORANI: Parliament has rejected that.
NOBILO: So, he puts the most likely outcome. But it is important as well to underscore why it's so difficult for Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn to
reach an agreement apart from the fact that their Brexit positions might not align. In terms of the tribal nature of Conservative party and Labour
party politics, it's hard to find two leaders in British history who are further apart. There is such a political gulf between them. It is so
toxic for their electoral base and their individual political --
GORANI: Will they put country above party here because this is what it's come to for Theresa May? She is very ideologically driven as well, Theresa
May. If she's reached the stage now where she is seeing as the only option for her to get this deal through or any deal through, to reach out to
Jeremy Corbyn who as you said is so diametrically opposed to her on the political spectrum.
NOBILO: Anathema to most of the Conservatives in her party. The notion that she's decided to do this has deeply frustrated not just Brexiteers but
others who feel it's going to legitimatize somebody they fundamentally oppose politically. And they don't want to see her doing that. They would
much prefer that she try to address the issue with her own party and their concerns. As we've both discussed many times, the EU dismissed that.
GORANI: And the EU dismissed it. We'll be speaking later. Disturbing video has emerged by the way that appears to show Britain's political
divisions boiling over into something ugly. The British army is launching an investigation into these images which seem to show four servicemen using
a picture of Jeremy Corbyn, the Labour leader, for target practice.
This is apparently -- this was apparently filmed in Afghanistan and it was shared on Snapchat. The message below it reads, happy with that. We can't
verify the picture, but the army is saying it's going to look into it and calling the behavior quote, "totally unacceptable."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[14:10:00] BRIGADIER NICK PERRY, COMMANDER, 16 AIR ASSAULT BRIGADE: I'm talking to you because a video has emerged from Afghanistan with some
of our soldiers engaged in inappropriate behavior and following a serious error of judgement.
You'll understand that an investigation has been launched but I think at this time it will be helpful to remind ourselves of the importance as
soldiers of always remaining nonpolitical and focusing on the mission at hand and success in that mission.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: There you have it. The British army saying we're looking into this. Jack Smith is a former adviser to Jeremy Corbyn. He's in
Westminster. Thanks for joining us. Before I ask you about Jeremy Corbyn and what he said about the talks he held today with Theresa May what did
you make of this video, of service members appearing to be using a picture of him in target practice in Kabul.
JACK SMITH, FORMER ADVISER TO JEREMY CORBYN: Good evening, Hala. As the army has said, it's unacceptable and it's deeply disturbing and I'm glad
that the army have said they're going to investigate this. There has been condemnation across the political spectrum about it, rightly so. But I
think that goes to a further point that is happening in our politics in this country at the moment which is about the corrosion and toxic nature.
This is being fed by all sorts of different parts of the spectrum, we have MPs from the extreme wings of the Tory party calling people traitors,
calling people betrayers. And using very toxic language and that doesn't help. MPs needing to be leading the way on dialing down the rhetoric. We
need to find a constructive solution to this Brexit impasse.
GORANI: We're now seeing an attempt at cross-party cooperation, I guess, with the Prime Minister reaching out to Jeremy Corbyn. Jeremy Corbyn, the
leader of the Labour party is saying there's an awful lot of talking that needs to be done and some people have remarked that there doesn't seem to
be a sense of urgency coming from Mr. Corbyn. We are days away from a potential no deal and an emergency summit in Brussels. Are people right to
SMITH: We've come to a position that we should have reached two years ago. The Prime Minister tried and tried and tried again to get the extremists
from her own benches to back her. I was never going to happen. She's now finally embarked on the
Right decision. Jeremy Corbyn has approached this properly, constructively. He wants a dialogue and he wants to try and breach this
The Prime Minister needs Jeremy Corbyn's support and Jeremy Corbyn is rightly taking a position of taking his time on this. This is not
something that needs to be rushed. To get over the line, there is time to get this line. This is going to affect generations to come and Corbyn is
taking the right approach.
GORANI: How much time. April 12th is a hard Brexit day if there's no deal. The EU has repeated that time and time again.
SMITH: We can -- we can talk about whether there's likely to be a hard Brexit, it's been a motion passed in the Commons to start a legally binding
bill to stop a hard deal, a no-deal Brexit. But he's taking the right approach and he's trying to secure what's best for the country. He's
trying to secure a single market access, custom's union access and the ability to protect rights and -- rights for workers and consumers and
That have been hard fought for in the European Union by Labour over years. Often opposed by the Tories. And I think that there's now a feeling in the
country that whether you're a remainer or a leaver, if you're on the mainstream wing of those parties, you want to get a deal done and you're
looking to your political. And I think Jeremy Corbyn has a chance to be that political leader to find a resolution here.
GORANI: You know him very well. Some of the criticism directed at Jeremy Corbyn is -- he's getting some pressure from his own party, by the way, to
attach the request or the demand even of a second popular vote to any deal. But some of the criticism is that he's really not -- he's not much of a
euro-phile. He's not too bothered about Brexit itself. He never truly campaigned in favor of remain. Is that criticism justified?
SMITH: I'm not going to go into private conversations I had with Jeremy, but I can say to you that Jeremy believed at the time that remain was the
right idea. But he's also a democrat and he recognizes that 52 percent of the country, whether I like it or not, or whether other people in within
the Labour party like it or not voted to leave. And he's trying to respect that will.
What we've got to remember here is that 52 to 48 percent i's very tight. There was always going to have to be a compromise here. Theresa May tried
to push a deal through that nobody wanted even on her own side, and it's taken her two years to get to this stage where compromise is finally on the
Jeremy Corbyn rightly taking the compromise approach and I hope and I think that we will get to a stage within the next two days, three days, perhaps,
where a decision has been reached on a compromise across the House.
[14:15:00] GORANI: We'll see from what we heard this evening, it looks like they might be a long way. Jack Smith, a former adviser to Jeremy
Corbyn, thanks so much for joining us on CNN this evening. We appreciate it.
SMITH: Thanks for having me.
GORANI: The head of NATO says its members must spend more on defense to deter enemies of peace and an uncertain future. He spoke in front of the
U.S. Congress in Washington. Jens Stoltenberg said criticism from President Trump had led to allies increasing their spending by billions of
dollars on defense. He added that differences in the group did not mean that the group itself was weak. This is what he told Congress today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JENS STOLTENBERG, NATO SECRETARY GENERAL: We have to be frank. Questions are being asked on both sides of the Atlantic about the strength of our
partnership. And, yes, there are differences. We are an alliance of many different nations. With different geography, history, and political
Republicans and Democrats, Conservatives and Labour, independents, greens and many more, this is democracy. Open discussions and different views is
not a sign of weakness, it is a sign of strength.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: So, I spoke to Jens Stoltenberg. I began by asking him what that message he delivered to lawmakers in Washington meant?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STOLTENBERG: I meant that NATO is the alliance of 29 different nations with a different geography, history and also political parties in power.
But despite the differences we see on trade, energy, other issues, we have all been able to unite around our core task and that's to defend and
protect each other and that's the case today.
GORANI: You've been very conciliatory towards President Trump, the U.S. President, after he said some things that have even gone as far as question
the necessity of having an organization like NATO. Is this a strategy on your part to keep him on side?
STOLTENBERG: My message to President Trump is exactly the same message as in the speech today, and that is also that the United States needs friends.
And it's good for the United States to have friends. It's in the national interest of the United States to have a strong NATO. Trump's message has
been that he's committed to NATO but he wants allies to pay more. I agree we need to fair burden sharing for NATO to be strong.
GORANI: But his understanding of how NATO functions, some people have questioned. He's saying, we're paying for a big proportion of NATO which
basically is protecting Europe, we're being taken advantage of because Europe is also taking advantage of us on trade, that kind of thing. As if
there was some sort of central NATO budget in this case. Is this something that he's told you and have you corrected him on that?
STOLTENBERG: We have discussed how NATO is working and that my -- and important thing for me is that he is committed to NATO. He has clearly
stated that he's behind NATO. He did that when we met yesterday. He did that in the state of the union speech. But not only it works, but also in
deeds. The United States is increasing their military commitment.
GORANI: The German chancellor has been a little more adversarial to how the reaction to how the U.S. President has qualified NATO. There seems to
be some divergence there within NATO countries themselves about how to approach this.
STOLTENBERG: Yes. But, again, I don't deny that there are differences on many different issues. And what we have seen dating back to the Suez
crisis in '56, the French withdrawal from NATO military cooperation in the 60s or the Iraq war, these issues -- we have strong disagreements between
NATO allies, but despite those, we were able to stand together. That's also the case now.
Yes, there are differences, but we are able to deliver as an alliance and actually North America and Europe are doing more together now than they
have done for many years.
GORANI: I'm sure you read some of the criticism from former U.S. ambassadors to NATO, Nick Burns being one of them, saying NATO is facing
one of its most difficult crisis in decades. The single greatest threat is the absence of strong principled American Presidential leadership. How do
you react to career ambassadors saying this?
[14:20:00] STOLTENBERG: What matters is actually what we do and we do more now than together, North America and Europe, than we've done for many
decades. We've implemented the biggest reinforcement to our collective defense from the end of the Cold War. Combat ready troops in the eastern
part of the alliance and stepped up our fight against terrorism. All NATO allies have been part of the global coalition to defeat Daesh. I'm not
saying that the fight against ISIS is over, we've made remarkable progress liberating all of the territory they controlled in Iraq and Syria.
GORANI: You were a Prime Minister in Norway Anders Breivik killed dozens of innocent people, targeting young people. Christchurch happened a few
weeks ago in New Zealand. Do you accept the criticism that the western world has focused too much on Islamic terrorism and ignored white supremacy
terrorism that has killed so many?
STOLTENBERG: Terrorism comes in different forms. Misuse of religion and political ideology, but they are all the same, they believe in violence,
hatred and thereafter regardless of what kind of religion or political ideology they're trying to use and the excuse, they are the same, they are
cowards, they believe in hatred and violence and we have to stand up against them regardless of the form over the --
GORANI: But a lot more funds, entire wars have been launched over Islamists-inspired terrorism versus white supremacy violence like this. Do
you think there's been not enough attention paid to the latter?
STOLTENBERG: We have to pay attention to both. They come in different forms. We haven't seen any -- is, they try to establish a caliphate and we
need strong, high-end military capabilities to liberate the territory they controlled. We haven't seen anything that's -- from other organizations
like that for other organizations. But, again, it doesn't matter what kind of religion, what kind of color, what kind of political ideology. We need
to stand up to intolerance regardless of what is attacking those values.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: Jens Stoltenberg, the NATO Secretary General. He's in Washington for the 70th anniversary of NATO which was founded in 1949. And he met
with the President and also delivered that address to Congress speaking to me earlier.
Still to come tonight, brutal punishments that sound like something from medieval times are now part of the legal system in Brunei. We'll be
talking to a human rights campaigner who's outraged about it and what he thinks should be done now.
[14:25:00] GORANI: Barbaric to the core, that's how Human Rights Watch described Brunei's strict new laws that are in effect. They call for
draconian punishments including limb amputation for theft and death by stoning for gay sex. The Sultan of Brunei who's the nation's absolute
ruler, says he's just following Islamic law.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HASSANAL BOLKIAH, SULTAN OF BRUNEI (through translator): Touching on the attainment of the blessing from Allah, I want to see the teachings grow
stronger and more visible in the country. This system preserves and guarantees the rights of all the people regardless of their race and faith.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: Joining me now is Peter Tatchell, a leading gay rights campaigner here in the UK. You've been following what's happening in Brunei,
culminating in this Sharia law enactment for a while now. Right? You've also called for boycotts of hotels and other properties controlled by
PETER TATCHELL, GAY RIGHTS CAMPAIGNER: I think it's great that celebrities like George Clooney and Elton John have called for a boycott of premises
owned by the Sultan like the Dorchester Hotel in London and the Beverly Hills Hotel in Los Angeles.
But we need government action. We need governments to say these laws are a clear violation of international humanitarian law and therefore we are
going to suspend diplomatic, economic, and military ties with Brunei.
It's that strong message that's required and it's wholly consistent with international law. Death by stoning is a particularly unique and barbaric
and cruel punishment. It clearly does not conform to international human rights law, law which Brunei itself has signed.
GORANI: So, you would be campaigning here with governments as opposed to individuals calling on them to boycott hotels, chains and the rest of it.
How successful can that be, do you think?
TATCHELL: I think the consumer boycott of hotels will have a marginal affect because the Sultan is a very, very wealthy man. He can probably
afford to bear the economic costs. But in addition, now this law is in place, I would suspect there will be an LGBT brain drain from Brunei,
highly, educated talented and skilled Brunei citizens who are gay will leave the country. That will be an economic cost. Western tourists and
their friends will stay away. That will be a loss of tourism revenue.
And of course, it's very likely that foreign aid and trade and investment will diminish. So, there will be a knock-on economic affect for Brunei and
that may have a greater impact on the government than any symbolic protests like boycotting hotels.
GORANI: Do you think it will have the affect that you would like it to have?
TATCHELL: Of course --
GORANI: Which is Brunei dialing back on these --
TATCHELL: Of course, the Sultan is an absolute ruler. He's a dictator. He was a dictator long before these laws were introduced this week. And he
has been pretty impervious to international condemnation. But I think in the long term a combination of Brunei's diminished reputation, sanctions,
boycotts, isolation, will in the long-term have an affect and will help empower those in Brunei who want to see a change.
GORANI: You've been critical of western governments, Australia as well for not doing more to try to pressure Brunei to walk back some of these
TATCHELL: It's very shocking that the Australian Prime Minister has not yet publicly condemned these laws and nor have many other western leaders.
But it isn't a western issue. It's an international human rights issue and all governments, whatever their political persuasion or geographical
location have a responsibility to defend the human rights laws that they have signed and pledged to uphold.
GORANI: Have any governments publicly condemned Brunei?
TATCHELL: There have been some speaking out, but it has been muted and irregular. And I think we need consistency. We need the European Union,
for example, to not only speak out, but also to warn Brunei, if this continues, if this law isn't scrapped, that there will be an economic,
diplomatic and military cost to pay.
GORANI: And Brunei itself, it's kind of a strange case, they really are doubling down because already gay sex was punishable by prison time, hard
prison time. Now this, which is the most extreme interpretation of Sharia law that you can imagine. What's going on in countries in this day and age
in that part of the world, with all their riches that they're going down that road?
[14:30:00] TATCHELL: There's a new surge of Islamic extremism in Southeast Asia. I guess maybe the Sultan is thinking he wants to preempt the growth
of Islamism by cracking down and implementing Sharia law. But as he gets older, he's
becoming more pious and he's thinking about the after life and he thinks perhaps by implementing these laws based on his rather weird interpretation
of Islam, that he will have a guarantee in the afterlife.
Hopefully some of his advisers will think otherwise and perhaps eventually persuade him to row back. Or otherwise we have to wait until he dies.
GORANI: Thanks so much for joining us on CNN. We appreciate your time this evening on this important story. Still to come, a report details the
final terrifying moments of that doomed Ethiopia flight and it suggests that Boeing's own instructions did not work. And a mysterious visitor to
Mar-a-Lago winds up in jail. We'll tell you about a major security breach at the American president's Florida resort.
GORANI: A new report suggests Ethiopian Airlines pilots, in fact, followed Boeing's own rules before Flight 302 crashed last month. The Wall Street
Journal says pilots, as instructed, turned off the automated system that was pushing down the plane's nose. They still weren't able to pull it out
of its spiral, though. Boeing reminded pilots of those guidelines after a similar crash of the same model aircraft months before.
CNN has not confirmed details of the report. And you'll remember, of course, the Ethiopia crash killed everyone onboard, 157 people, and led to
the grounding of all Boeing 737 Max aircraft.
Now, the preliminary report on that crash is due Thursday.
I want to bring in retired pilot and CNN aviation analyst, Les Abend. He's the author of this book, "Paper Wings." And you can also read his work in
flying magazine. He joins me now from Jacksonville, Florida.
So it's extremely worrying, I think, Les, for passengers to hear that according to this report, that the pilots, in fact, did follow the
recommendations of the plane manufacturer and still weren't able to right the aircraft.
LES ABEND, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: It's very concerning to me as a pilot that this report is coming out. But I'd like to see the details. My
understanding is that this report -preliminary report will be coming out sometime tomorrow.
But what it says to me on this whole aspect, and I've been saying this all along, is that Boeing's cockpit fix or pilot for this potential problem,
has not been resolved because they followed the procedure. And I suspected that they had. What it says to me is that there's more to it. It's not
just a software fix. This is a hardware fix it sounds like to me also.
Because if -- from what I'm understanding and, once again, we need some more details, at least I do, to understand a little bit better, that they
reconnected the system or at least put on the -- what we call the trim stab cutout switches and then the airplane proceeded to do exactly as it has
been. That's counterintuitive to pilots.
I mean, if you shut off something and it's -- and it seems to be working, then you're not going to put the system back on, you're going to leave it
alone. Why they turned it back on is puzzling to me.
GORANI: But I mean, if indeed -- and it seems as though these two, the Lion Air and the Ethiopian Airlines crashes and we'll see, based on the
preliminary report if there is a lot of crossover there, based on some of the findings.
[14:35:05] But that pilots who were experienced pilots with thousands of hours of flying time are doing what they were told to do in the case of,
for instance, a nose dip or an issue that is bringing the plane down when, really, they want to bring it back up.
And then despite all of that, they're not able to correct the problem. What does the plane manufacturer need to do? What went wrong in the
training, even, or in some of the guidelines that were issued?
ABEND: Well, what went wrong in the training is there wasn't enough of it and I'm not sure Boeing really understands their system if they came out
with what they thought was a fix to this whole thing.
You know, as a pilot, it's very disconcerting that I have no control over that aircraft and I can't imagine what it was like in that cockpit, so.
ABEND: This is a tough situation and I think Boeing -- this is why we do accident investigations, to determine more factors of a probable cause.
Everybody likes to point at one particular problem or one factor, but very often there's more involved and I think we're going to find that out.
GORANI: So I'm guessing you think grounding the Max planes is a good idea until we know more?
ABEND: At this point, with the investigation where it's proceeded, I would say, absolutely, at this point, yes.
GORANI: What is your biggest outstanding question here as we wait for this preliminary report? I'm sure you read the Wall Street Journal account
there. What is the biggest question you have?
ABEND: I did read the Wall Street Journal reporting. The biggest -- the biggest question I have is -- I think we're dealing with also a hardware
issue. And obviously a sensor set to the airplane --
GORANI: And what does that mean for someone like me? I don't understand the difference. What does that mean exactly versus a software issue?
ABEND: Sure. The software issue is what we've been talking about with reference to the Maneuvering Characteristic Augmentation System, the MCAS.
That is a computer generated program that stops the airplane from stalling, when the pilots are actually hand flying the airplane. So that is one
aspect to the problem.
The other aspect is the sensor itself which is actually a mechanical device which tells the airplane what the angle of attack is -- or am I stalling
the airplane? And that seems to be where that faulty message has come from. And I think that has to be determined for certain before we can put
these airplanes back in the air.
GORANI: Les Abend, thanks very much for joining us live from Florida this evening.
Now to a story that sounds like something out of a spy novel but actually is very real. And a very real concern for security officials, it seems. A
Chinese woman carrying multiple cell phones and malicious malware managed to enter President Donald Trump's Mar-a-Lago Resort.
Now, she was later arrested and charged. But as Kaylee Hartung reports, there's still lots of questions out there.
KAYLEE HARTUNG, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Federal prosecutors filing charges against Chinese national, Yujing Zhang, who they say illegally
entered President Trump's Mar-a-Lago club last weekend and lied about it.
Prosecutors say Zhang was carrying two Chinese passports, four cell phones, a laptop computer and external hard drive type device, and a thumb drive
that contained, quote, "malicious malware."
REP. ADAM SCHIFF (D), CALIFORNIA: Is this malware that she was, you know, aware that she had on the thumb drive? Was it intended to be planted in
some fashion? We don't know the answer to those questions.
HARTUNG: According to the complaint, Zhang initially told Secret Service she was at Mar-a-Lago to use the pool. Club managers believed she was
related to another member of the club with the same last name and allowed her in. But when questioned by a receptionist, Zhang's story changed
responding that she was there for a U.N. event that the receptionist knew did not exist.
MIKE ROGERS, FORMER U.S. HOUSE INTELLIGENCE CHAIRMAN: If you were trained, you would never have deviated from what your story was at the front gate to
any security checkpoint. It just doesn't feel like a spy effort to me.
HARTUNG: Agents removed Zhang from Mar-a-Lago to interview her. The charging document then says she got verbally aggressive telling agents she
was told by a friend to attend the event and to try to speak with a member of the president's family about Chinese and American foreign economic
President Trump was staying at Mar-a-Lago at the time but golfing during the incident. The breach is raising questions about security at the club.
REP. JACKIE SPEIER (D), CALIFORNIA: There's a reason why there's Camp David. The president doesn't like it so he doesn't go there. And so once
again we have a porous Mar-a-Lago.
HARTUNG: The Secret Service issuing a rare statement insisting that they do not determine who is invited or welcome at Mar-a-Lago. Noting that
their policies are no different than that long-used at any other site temporarily visited by the president.
GORANI: Well, let's get some perspective now from CNN security analyst, Josh Campbell. He's a former supervisory special agent for the FBI.
First of all, she sounds -- if she is a spy or in any way trying to spy, like the world's worst spy, right? Because she was immediately -- I mean,
even a receptionist realized her story had holes in it.
[14:40:09] But what does this say about how people can get very close to the president inside his Florida resort? I mean, get all the way into the
resort itself without really that many security checks?
JOSH CAMPBELL, CNN SECURITY ANALYST: Yes. So obviously troubling here when you think about the proximity. Obviously, this is someone who arrived
outside the president's resort, made it through a checkpoint, series of checkpoints and then up to the reception area.
Now, what we're told and we've been talking to law enforcement sources is that, it's actually the Mar-a-Lago Resort staff that is in charge of
bringing -- waving people into the facility. So the Secret Service will conduct a scan to see if they have weapons or any type of prohibited items,
but it's really up to this private property to determine who they want to allow on.
Now, when it comes to proximity to the president, obviously, the Secret Service controls that very aggressively. But still knowing that this is a
target of intelligence collection, the president's resort, the fact that this person is able to make it all the way that far in, as you mentioned,
is very troubling.
GORANI: But typically if a president is somewhere outside of the White House or Camp David, I mean, this is his own resort, he owns it. Does the
Secret Service require a smaller cordon around him? Because this seems like it's also a vast, geographically, vast area as well which would make
it, presumably much harder to control and patrol.
CAMPBELL: Yes, absolutely. So if you think about it, when the president himself, he's surrounded in a bubble anywhere he goes with protection. So
he was at Mar-a-Lago. He wasn't inside this facility. He was a few miles away at the golf club. And so there's no way that this woman would have
actually made her way up to the president, you know, unless she was authorized.
So the physical security of the president, I don't think was in jeopardy. But when it comes to the larger picture, you know, obviously, if there's a
foreign intelligence service which we don't know that she was, you know, part of one, but this is a possibility, their goal in this situation like
Mar-a-Lago is trying to determine, you know, who is in the president's orbit, who are these guests that are coming and going? There are a lot of
records and information that can be gleaned if you're able to compromise the computer system there, for example.
So, again, there are a lot of issues on the technical side that a collection service, obviously, would find beneficial. And that's what
makes this thing so troubling is that you have this person who wasn't supposed to be there but made her way in.
GORANI: Because malware was found on her thumb drive, so we don't know exactly what her intentions were with that and what kind of damage she
could have caused there, right?
CAMPBELL: Yes, that's exactly right. The Secret Service mentioned in their criminal complaint that she had this thumb drive that had malicious
software. We don't know if this was a corrupt file that, you know, any of us could have had on our, you know, hard drive or whether this was intended
to be weaponized, whether she was actually using this for intelligence collection purpose.
Now, the way that this would work is, you know, obviously sophisticated service and, you know, any hacker group or someone wanted to compromise the
system, all you have to do is insert that thumb drive into a computer and you can essentially own the network, if it's sophisticated enough.
And again, you know, not that they're going to spy on the president, but you collect a lot of information regarding people that, as I mentioned, are
in the president's orbit. And that could be a potentially gold mine for these intelligence services who were just vacuuming up information in order
to paint pictures on foreign leaders.
GORANI: All right. Well, she was apprehended, but certainly an incredible story there at Mar-a-Lago. Thanks very much, Josh Campbell, for joining
us. Appreciate it.
If you're one of those people who thinks that the rich and famous play by different rules, if you're one of those people, well, what's happening in a
Boston courthouse right now won't come as a surprise to you.
Fifteen very wealthy individuals are in court today for their alleged part in a college admissions cheating scandal. Among the accused are actresses
Felicity Huffman and Lori Loughlin. They are charged with mail fraud for paying huge bribes to get their kids into prominent American universities.
Our Brynn Gingras is outside the federal courthouse in Boston with the very latest. What's going on today, Brynn?
BRYNN GINGRAS, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hala, yes, this is the first time that these defendants are appearing before a judge and there's a total
of 15 people in all, all parents that were associated with this scheme. Remember, 50 people in all were charged. We have another wave of parents
in court on Friday. This wave obviously getting a little bit more attention because of those two actresses.
But essentially, they're just going to go in front of a judge and discuss the terms of their bonds and sort of little details. We don't expect sort
of big fireworks to come out of this no plea agreements or anything like that. It's really just the first step.
However, we are learning from sources that prosecutors, if it gets to this point, are going to ask for six months to 21 months, so nearly two years
for each of the defendants in this case. It doesn't matter if it's an actress or not or how much you allegedly played into the scam. But that's
what they plan to ask.
And, really, the pressure is on for these parents to cooperate with the government because it's possible that more charges could come down. We've
already seen that with two parents, more charges and the government really has some time, just a couple weeks, before they can add more charges on for
all these parents. So we'll see.
[14:45:07] I know the two actresses have not appeared before the judge yet but it is coming very shortly.
GORANI: All right. Brynn Gingras, thanks very much in Boston with the very latest on that case that has made news around the world. That has to
be said. I think part of the reason is because it really strikes a chord with people all over the world who believe that in some cases, even if a
system is built as meritocratic is that -- you know, if you have money, if you have connections, well, your kids get into better schools. And
perhaps, this is something that's being exposed that people are not that surprised by in the end.
Quick bit of news from the U.K. here. The crown prosecution is going to seek a retrial in a case connected to the Hillsborough Stadium tragedy
after a jury failed to reach a verdict after eight days of deliberations.
David Duckenfield faces charges of gross negligence, manslaughter over that 1989 disaster that caused the deaths of 96 football fans. Duckenfield
headed up public safety for the match and the prosecution argued that he had ultimate responsibility for safety. He denies the charges.
Still to come, in Venezuela, the government of Nicolas Maduro appears to be losing support in the power outages, food shortages and uncertainty. We're
live in Caracas, next.
GORANI: In Venezuela, the government of Nicolas Maduro is stepping up the pressure on the opposition leader, Juan Guaido. The pro-Maduro national
assembly has voted to allow an investigation of Guaido to move forward, on a surprise. And the Supreme Court of justice wants him stripped of his
David McKenzie joins us now live from Caracas. What are the implications for Juan Guaido here? Because if -- I mean, it's not a surprise that the
government of Maduro is allowing an investigation into him to proceed.
DAVID MCKENZIE, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: No, there's no surprise there at all. And it seems to me it's a constitutional veneer have a near
on a power play. The president of Venezuela, Nicolas Maduro will be assessing, I think. Whether now is the time to move on the opposition
leader Juan Guaido or at a later stage? And by doing this, by using this rubberstamp parliament which was set up in effect in parallel to the
existing national assembly, they are going to try and apply that pressure even further and potentially move on the opposition leader.
There is a sense in the last few days, weeks, in fact, that Nicolas Maduro has managed to not only cling onto power, but really whether the most
immediate storm. This despite the fact that the U.N. draft report that CNN has seen shows a dire humanitarian situation in this country and many
neighborhoods we've gone to in the capital, at least, Hala, have shown to be losing what the stopping support of Maduro when they were staunchly pro-
regime in the past. Hala?
[14:50:08] GORANI: And these shortages, and you've done reports on them as well. I mean, it's not getting better. People are getting angry. Even in
parts of the country that previously supported Maduro there's understandably a whole lot of frustration that their lives are still
MCKENZIE: Well, they are -- they are miserable. And in one sense, to take the most extreme sense of the phrase, voting with your feet, there have
been some three million people who have already left Venezuela in recent years. Almost two million, according to that report could leave this year
because of just trying to survive and thrive with their families. So that really shows you how desperate people are in this country.
But, you know, the humanitarian situation aside, the politics of Venezuela right now is that Nicolas Maduro hasn't seen any major defection from his
top political generals and he does have the backing of Russia militarily and China financially.
He's in a position of, if not strength, certainly they've had the siege mentality right now. And the entreaties from the White House and other
foreign nations to get him out, are falling on deaf ears.
At the same time, the opposition leader has called for people to get out onto the streets in particular this weekend saying get their voices heard
and push for change here in Venezuela. Hala?
GORANI: All right. Thanks very much. David McKenzie is in Caracas.
To Uganda now. Police say an American tourist has been kidnapped there. Authorities say armed men took the 35-year-old woman and a Ugandan driver
Tuesday night. They were in Queen Elizabeth National Park. And it is a popular attraction near the border with the DRC, the Democratic Republic of
Congo. The kidnappers are demanding half a million dollars in ransom.
A lot more to come after a quick break. You're watching CNN.
GORANI: Now to India where travelers, in some cases, are ditching the traditional tour buses and taking to two wheels. In this edition of
"TRAVEL TRENDS," we ride with a company offering a very different view of the country.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: For some travelers, there's no better way to see a country than from the perch of a motorcycle where the freedom and romance
of a road trip can be experienced firsthand.
For Alexandre Zurcher, a love of motorbikes was born here in Deli, where he first learned how to ride during an exchange program.
ALEXANDRE ZURCHER, DIRECTOR, VINTAGE RIDES: I've cruised a lot of other countries. At the end of that year, I saw that it was an amazing
experience. Traveling with a motorcycle, it creates real and authentic contact with the population.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's how Zurcher got the idea to start Vintage Rides in 2006.
The travel company organizes motorcycle tours in 10 countries, most of which are in India.
ZURCHER: I think motorcycle tourism is developing all over the world, and especially in India.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Welcome all of you in India, especially in Rajasthan.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Today, this group of French and British riders is gearing up for an 11-day trip throughout the culturally-rich state of
[14:55:05] Their first day of riding begins here at a gas station in the small village just outside of New Delhi.
Along the dusty roads that cut through sneaky hamlets and semi-arid landscapes, it's only a matter of time before the riders stumble upon a
scene of interest, a Mela (ph) or a village fair, where locals are gathered for a bit of commerce and amusement.
DEEPAK THAKUR, TOUR LEADER, VINTAGE RIDES: Today, like we have a one festival. We travel not actually in the itinerary. We can go beyond the
itinerary. We can stroll wherever we want to stop.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: At last, the riders reached the town of Mandawa, where they'll be staying the night in this traditional mansion known as the
Between the 17th and 19th centuries, the wealthy merchants of the Shekhawati Region built these ornate Havelis as a way of flaunting their
Tonight, the Haveli will be a home for these motorcyclists weary after a long day's travel.
ZURCHER: To me, travel happens when you start having some -- an unexpected encounters. We take our group of riders on -- off the beaten tracks, in
the villages where people are not used to seeing tourists. So what happens is always is unexpected. That is the magic of the motorcycle.
GORANI: Thanks for watching tonight. I'm Hala Gorani. Stay with CNN. "QUEST MEANS BUSINESS" is next.