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Kirstjen Nielsen No Longer DHS Secretary; Benjamin Netanyahu Makes A Promise Ahead Of Israel's Election; Protests In Sudan Are Getting Larger And Louder. Aired: 8-9a ET
Aired April 08, 2019 - 08:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KRISTIE LU STOUT, CNN HOST (voice over): Musical chairs in the Trump administration.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Kirstjen Nielsen no longer DHS Secretary.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LU STOUT (voice over): But a source says she did not resign willingly.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She apparently bore the brunt of the President's anger over the issue of immigration.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LU STOUT (voice over): Benjamin Netanyahu makes a promise ahead of Israel's election.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Netanyahu is vowing to annex West Bank settlements.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LU STOUT (voice over): As he faces a major challenge from his opponent.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL HOLMES, ANCHOR, CNN: The last poll before the election, they showed Gantz slightly ahead.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LU STOUT (voice over): And a CNN exclusive.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KHADIJAH AL DOWEIHI, TORTURE VICTIM (Through a translator): They were all masked, armed, and holding batons.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LU STOUT (voice over): Nima Elbagir reports on the Sudanese government's brutal repression against calls for democracy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NIMA ELBAGIR, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: They're going from door to door, trying to figure out who demonstrations.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LU STOUT (on camera): Welcome to NEWS STREAM. I'm Kristie Lu Stout in Hong Kong.
BECKY ANDERSON, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Becky Anderson in Haifa in Israel, a place you don't hear talked about too often on the world stage. But this
is Israel's third largest city and a crucial battleground for what is tomorrow's critically important election. More coming up.
LU STOUT: Becky, thank you. Now, let's begin in Washington, where there has been another high-profile Cabinet member in the Trump administration on
her way out of a job.
Homeland Secretary Kirstjen Nielsen has resigned, but according to a source, she is not going willingly. Now, Nielsen had become the face of
the President's hardline ante anti-immigration push. They were together at the border just a few days ago, but a source is telling CNN that she was
facing immense pressure to step down.
CNN's Joe Johns is following it from the White House and he filed this report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOE JOHNS, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT (voice over): The face of President Trump's hard line immigration policies, Homeland Security
Secretary Kirstjen Nielsen, forced to resign amid a growing humanitarian crisis at the border.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KIRSTJEN NIELSEN, SECRETARY OF HOMELAND SECURITY: This is not a manufactured crisis. This is truly an emergency.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JOHNS (voice over): Nielsen travelled to the border alongside President Trump on Friday, but a senior administration official tells CNN she
believed the situation was becoming untenable with the President becoming increasingly unhinged about the border crisis and making unreasonable and
often impossible requests.
On Friday, the source says President Trump told border agents to stop letting asylum seekers across the border, a move that would be a violation
of the law.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The asylum program is a scam. Some of the roughest people you've ever seen, people that look like
they should be fighting for the UFC.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JOHNS (voice over): A person close to Nielsen says she's been on thin ice with the administration, often clashing with President Trump who has
accused her of not doing enough to stem the tide of undocumented immigrants. A source familiar with her thinking says, "Nielsen was
frustrated in her job, but was staying on to try to repair her image after being tarnished by the controversy over family separations at the border.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NIELSEN: This administration did not create a policy of separating families at the border.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JOHNS (voice over): The move comes days after President Trump abruptly pulled Ron Vitiello's nomination for Immigration and Customs Enforcement
Director. Nielsen supported Vitiello, but was not told by Mr. Trump he was pulling his nomination.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Ron's a good man, but we're going in a tougher direction.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JOHNS (voice over): The President naming Customs and Border Protection Commissioner Kevin McAleenan acting Homeland Security Secretary. McAleenan
becoming the administration's fifth acting Cabinet level official. Democrats applauding Nielsen's departure.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. RICHARD BLUMENTHAL (D-CT): She has been a disgrace.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JOHNS (voice over): House Homeland Security Committee Chairman Bennie Thompson calling Nielsen's tenure a disaster, and House Speaker Nancy
Pelosi writing, "It is deeply alarming that the Trump administration official who put children in cages is reportedly resigning because she's
not extreme enough for the White House's liking."
(END VIDEOTAPE)
JOHNS (on camera): Now, this has been a long time coming, a White House official telling CNN it was about time for the departure of Kirstjen
Nielsen. She was in a very tough position; seen here at the White House as not tough enough on immigration, seen on Capitol Hill by Democrats
particularly in the House of Representatives as too tough on immigration. We are told she did not fight for this job, also told that she did not
grovel -- Kristie.
[08:05:05]
LU STOUT: More palace turmoil there in Washington. Joe Johns reporting. Joe, thank you. Now, it is the eve of the election in Israel. Millions of
voters is set to head to the polls on Tuesday and it is shaping up to be a nail biter. Becky Anderson is in Haifa, Israel. She joins us once again -
- Becky.
ANDERSON: Thank you very much indeed. Benjamin Netanyahu could soon find himself in a position to be Israel's longest serving Prime Minister, but he
faces a big hurdle in Tuesday's election and he is trying to leave nothing to chance.
In a controversial move, he is now vowing to annex settlements in the occupied West Bank if he is re-elected. That pledge is clearly designed to
win over right-wing voters amid a tough election fight.
Mr. Netanyahu facing corruption allegations and a strong rival in former Military Chief, Benny Gantz. Well, the last polls before the election were
published on Friday and show Mr. Gantz's Party has a slight lead. But Mr. Netanyahu may have the edge when it comes to building a coalition.
CNN's Oren Liebermann joins us now live from Jerusalem. And Oren, one commentator here put it like this, taking polls too seriously is, if not a
fool's errand, then a masochist's one. What is clear is that Netanyahu is pulling out all the stops to try and whip up support in the dying hours of
this campaign. What is his strategy here?
OREN LIEBERMANN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: We saw him just a few minutes ago at the Shuk Machane Yehuda, in sort of central Jerusalem, where he held a
last-minute rally and he spoke to voters there, he said, "This is the closing hours of the campaign." His polls -- the numbers he was looking at
showed he is a few seats behind and then he called on all the Likud voters to not only vote themselves for Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's Likud
Party, but to bring their family, to bring their friends, and to make sure all of them vote for Likud.
It sounds like he is making this the position of an underdog, a strong position, but a position he played it well in 2015. It seems the latest
election polls show this closer than he is playing it, but this is the strategy he is playing, that Likud is in danger, a right-wing government is
in danger and he is calling on all right-wing voters to back him.
There is a risk here. He risks pulling votes from other smaller right-wing parties and he could put them under the electoral threshold. They may not
get enough votes to make it into the Knesset even as Netanyahu's Party grows, his chances of putting the other coalition would be more difficult.
But that seems his strategy in the closing hours, the closing days of the campaign, to suck up as many right-wing votes as possible, to make sure
that after the polls close tomorrow, it is Netanyahu's Likud Party that comes out ahead -- Becky.
ANDERSON: Oren Liebermann is in Jerusalem for you. Let's now bring in Nobel Prize winner and resident of Haifa, Dan Shechtman joining us on the
set now live. As I understand it, you are no fan of Benjamin Netanyahu, correct?
DAN SHECHTMAN, NOBEL PRIZE IN CHEMISTRY FOR 2011: I am not a fan of Benjamin Netanyahu.
ANDERSON: What do you make of the comments about annexation?
SHECHTMAN: You know, it is all said for political reasons to gather more support from the right parties who threaten him, so this is it.
ANDERSON: So this is just a ploy. You do not expect him to carry through, should he win on Tuesday?
SHECHTMAN: It is very difficult to say. If he will have enough pressure and support, he will do that.
ANDERSON: He has been called by his critics, not least one of the leading contenders for the Democratic Party in the U.S. 2020 election, a racist
today, and someone getting in the way of the potential for peace. Is he that? Is he a racist?
SHECHTMAN: Potential for peace is more or less an illusion. I don't think that there is a prospect for peace in the near future. And everybody
agrees on that -- the right, the left -- we all know it.
ANDERSON: It is not going to help if he goes talking about annexing settlements in the West Bank, is it?
SHECHTMAN: I don't think -- he is outrageous. No, no. That's not the problem of Netanyahu. It is not racism, it's personality.
ANDERSON: So what are voters going to vote on in Tuesday's election? What are the main pressure points here?
SHECHTMAN: Okay, there are strategic issues that should be addressed. Issue number one is quality of education and quantity of education. Half
of the population of Israel, more than half, do not receive proper education -- more than half. The old charter doctrine will not send their
children to school.
ANDERSON: The Israeli-Arabs do not get the same quality of education as the Jews.
SHECHTMAN: The Israeli-Arabs, depends on whether the Muslim and Christians, the Christian get very good education - very, very good
education. Some of the Muslims get good education, some do not. The Bedouin do not get good education. The numbers are growing fast.
ANDERSON: What is the Trump effect out of interest in this election?
[15:10:10]
ANDERSON: Benjamin Netanyahu has courted the Trump administration and he has had some big wins -- the Golan Heights, nixing the Iran deal, the
moving of the embassy to Jerusalem -- how big an effect does that have in support for Benjamin Netanyahu?
SHECHTMAN: Very big. Very big. I mean, he is a master of foreign policy. There is no question there. He is actively and has been actively -- as the
Foreign Minister of the country, he does a very good job and he has Trump on his side, big time.
ANDERSON: Does that matter though in the end to, for example, the residents of Haifa? This is often touted as a great model of co-existence,
Jews and Arabs living together. Yet, when you scratch the surface here, so with respect, you still find many issues of inequality. Some will say of
segregation. How does Haifa, as a city, reflect a wider Israel?
SHECHTMAN: There is no segregation. The law is the law for everybody, for all citizens of Israel. Arabic is an official language in Israel. It is
unparalleled. The Arabs are equal partners, equal citizens.
ANDERSON: They don't feel like that though, do they?
SHECHTMAN: Most of them do. Most of them are Israelis. Of course, you hear the extreme. You hear the people which are not in the center. These
are the voices that you hear. But really, the Arabs have really equal rights in Israel.
ANDERSON: I want to leave it there. We thank you very much indeed for joining us in what is, Kristie, a very, very windy Haifa today. This is a
fascinating city. There are restaurants on the road where we are broadcasting from, where you hear Arabic spoken as well as Hebrew. You see
people eating foods, different cultures and talking together. But behind the scenes, as we know, this is a country that is divided.
As we move through the hours today and into tomorrow, and as we discuss this election, we will discuss all of these issues, as the incumbent Prime
Minister fights to stay as Prime Minister here in Israel. Kristie, back to you.
LU STOUT: Becky, you're reporting from a fascinating corner of Israel, a fascinating conversation just then about the Trump effect, about
integration, and about prospects for peace, with your guest saying that he believes the prospects are quite dim. Becky, we will check in again with
you soon. Thank you so much.
LU STOUT: Now, you are watching NEWS STREAM and keep it here because still to come, protests in Sudan, they are getting larger and louder. We're
going to take a look inside the government's brutal crackdown in an exclusive report. Plus, a major offensive on Tripoli threatens to renew
full scale Civil War in Libya. Why now and how the international community is reacting, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[08:15:00]
LU STOUT: Libyan officials say that they have repelled an offensive from the country's largest single militia as concerns persist of a renewed Civil
War. Officials from the E.U. and the U.S., they are calling on factional leaders to resume UN-sponsored peace talks and American troops have been
pulled from the capital, Tripoli, as the self-styled Libyan National Army looks to capture it.
Now, they loosely control most of the country already and you could see their reach in red there on your screen. But now, they are hoping to take
its biggest city, where the internationally recognized government is strongest.
Joining me now is CNN's senior international correspondent, Nick Paton Walsh and Nick, how well are pro-government forces fending off the advance
from this renegade army?
NICK PATON WALSH, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, they say in a statement recently released that they have managed to keep Haftar's
forces out of the capital, Tripoli. But quite how sustained that will be, quite how truthful that statement is, I think we'll find out in the days
ahead here.
You saw the map, the vast expanse of red controlled which is controlled by what has called itself the Libyan National Army run by General Khalifa
Haftar. They dominate the -- base themselves in the east in Tobruk and Benghazi, and have been sort of sweeping their way towards Tripoli in the
past week or so.
The initial backdrop for this was a visit of the UN Secretary General, Antonio Guterres who was trying to foment peace talks inside the country
between this different warring militia principally between Haftar's side and that you mentioned in Tripoli, of the UN-recognized government led by
Fayez al-Sarraj.
Now, they of course, obviously didn't yield anything, and the offensive on Mr. Haftar continued. The question is, is he trying to build some kind of
political positioning for himself with this show of military might, with the intention of talking his way out of this, or does he, as he seems to be
at the moment, actually have eyes of walking into the capital itself and trying to take it? That is a messy and lengthy task and one certainly,
too, that I think many Libyans living in the capital, enduring years of chaos since the fall of Gaddafi in 2011, as different warring militias do
get out, they won't be particularly pleased with either -- Kristie.
LU STOUT: Yes, this is a long simmering power struggle. It is flaring up again. Nick Paton Walsh reporting for us live, thank you. Now, anti-
government protests in Sudan are escalating. At least six people died in protests over the weekend, and that is not counting dozens more who have
died since the protests began in December.
Demonstrators are calling for the country's President to step down, and they are accusing the government of using violence against them. In her
exclusive report, CNN's Nima Elbagir takes us inside the uprising to expose the government's brutal crackdown on protesters. And a warning, some of
the images you will see are disturbing.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ELBAGIR (voice-over): This is my hometown, Khartoum, for months now in the grip of pro-democracy process, much of it brutally hidden from the world by
Sudan's government. And yet people here are still risking everything for change, even as the United States works to restore diplomatic relations
with Sudan's government.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: [Speaking in foreign language].
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Keep filming. Keep filming.
TEXT: Sudan: A day in the life of an uprising.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ELBAGIR (voice-over): Khartoum, Sudan's capital. As I was growing up here, the government's grip on its people was all-encompassing. But a rise
in the cost of living in recent years has triggered protests against one of the world's longest-serving dictators, President Omar al-Bashir.
The Sudanese government doesn't want the world to know what's happening. Any journalist caught reporting on the demonstrations risks life
imprisonment and the death penalty. In the crowd, I try to stand back and film with secret cameras and smartphones, and hope that I'm not spotted.
ELBAGIR (on camera): I can smell the tear gas that they've been releasing on other demonstrations a little bit further away. So people here are
starting to get tense.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They're coming. They're coming.
ELBAGIR (voice-over): Some of the demonstrators start shouting that National Security agents are on their way, operatives infamous for their
brutality. We have to leave.
A family agrees to hide us in what people here call a safe house, but really is just someone's home.
ELBAGIR (on camera): The National Security agents have arrived. They've broken up the demonstration. They're going from house to house. We've
been brought into the safe house. We don't know how long we're going to have to wait here. They're trying to figure out how to get us out of here.
People are starting to come in. We have to go inside.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (Through a translator): God protect us.
[08:20:10]
ELBAGIR (on camera): I just saw their cars driving past. They're going from door to door, trying to figure out who was out in the demonstrations.
ELBAGIR (voice-over): That sound you hear? Tear gas cannons. We're trapped. Hours passed. We can only watch and listen through a gap in the
window.
Just next door to us, security agents are slapping and kicking a protestor as they drag him out, the neighbor's son. In the end, we leave our
equipment behind and take the risk to run.
We got lucky. But so many others didn't. CNN gathered detailed testimony from former detainees held in Sudanese government facilities. Of the over
3,000 people who have been arrested since the demonstrations began, almost all say they've been abused. One of them agrees to speak to us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AL DOWEIHI (Through a translator): They were all masked, armed and holding batons. As soon as we stepped out, we were beaten with batons. One man
slapped me on the left side of my face, it became numb. Then he struck me with the butt of his gun in my back. It's not even an official center. It
was one of those ghost houses.
TEXT: Ghost houses: "The worst two days of my life"
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ELBAGIR (voice-over): Ghost houses. Torture houses which the government says don't exist. We went to try and find one.
For all of us who grew up under Bashir's dictatorship, ghost houses conjures up immediately the horrors this government is accused of: torture,
sexual assault, brutal beatings.
Right in the center of Khartoum, we find a heavy military and intelligence presence. On your left, a screened-off square, a holding pen. Activists
picked up in the city center tell us they're beaten here and sorted according to their alleged crime. We can't linger. Everywhere, there is a
high level of security.
From here, activists say they're moved on to any one of the ghost houses scattered around town. Using descriptions given to us by eyewitnesses and
activists formerly held there, we're able to pinpoint one using aerial images, just south of the Blue Nile in Garden City. Keeping watch over
this green building, we witness National Security pickups and what appear to be detainees.
Worse, though, is in store. Many of the detainees we interviewed described being tortured just across the river, here, in what's known as Al Talaja,
the refrigerator. Its very name inspires terror. And yet one woman agreed to speak to us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (Through a translator): They detained us in an abandoned building. Because we were so severely beaten, we went numb. I
couldn't feel my legs and arms. The place was so cold, it felt like there were knives piercing our bodies. I only spent two days there, but they
were the worst two days of my life.
TEXT: Coming in from the cold.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ELBAGIR (voice-over): So why, in spite of all this, is President Trump's administration in talks to restore relations with Sudan?
This in the brutal aftermath of the terror attacks on the USS Cole and the U.S. embassies in East Africa. For years, families of victims have been
seeking compensation from Sudan's government, who they believe was complicit. CNN has learned that a key requirement for talks between Sudan
and the U.S. is that Sudan enter into good faith negotiations regarding compensation for victims' families.
In a statement, the U.S. State Department does not deny that talks are continuing with Sudan, or that this is ultimately about the terror claims,
but says, "Relations will improve only if the Sudanese government takes steps related to human rights." The Sudanese have shown no signs of doing
so, and yet talks to improve relations continue.
ELBAGIR (voice over): After days of searching, we are able to verify that the neighbor's son who we filmed being detained was released. Only after
hours of torture, he says. You can see it here. Another casualty in the litany of victims of Sudan's brutal repression.
This is what we witnessed in just one day back home -- the demonstrations, the tear gas, the fear. But the horrors have been going on for so much
longer, and there's still no end in sight.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LU STOUT: A brutal portrait of repression inside Sudan. CNN's Nima Elbagir joins us now live from New York.
[08:25:08]
LU STOUT: And Nema, protesters are risking so much to keep the pressure on the Sudanese government. What is driving them to protest and to wage this
dangerous challenge to al-Bashir?
ELBAGIR: Well, you saw, Kristie, what we had to go through in just one day to try and move around those demonstrations. So I hope that that opens a
little bit of a window into what these demonstrators, who are now gathering in the hundreds of thousands for the third day, are risking - that level of
brutality.
But as we've seen with previous regimes and this is almost the end of President al Omar Hassan Ahmad al-Bashir's third decade in power, past a
certain point, the same weapons, the same threats cease to hold throughout the people and that's what's beginning to happen in Sudan. The question
is, what next?
For now, there are so many rumors and so much speculation about what is going on. What bartering is being done within the ruling clique itself?
Will they try to force Oman al-Bashir out? Will they try to look for an acceptable alternative from their own ranks? It feels like everything is
on the table. The question is, will they be able to restrain themselves?
For now, only the European Union has spoken out and called for it straight, we're waiting to hear from the U.S., and the hope is in Sudan, from what I
am hearing speaking to people like my parents who are still there, Kristie, that the world will at least ensure that the Sudanese government know that
there will be consequences, that people are, hopefully, watching -- Kristie.
LU STOUT: This dangerous political struggle is underway in your home country in Sudan. We thank you for your reporting, for bringing the story
to the world, and we are also are thankful that you and your team are safe. Nima Elbagir reporting for us live. Thank you.
CNN has just received exclusive video of an American recently woman rescued from a horrific ordeal. Uganda says its security forces rescued the
kidnapped American tourist, her name, Kimberly Endicott with intelligence support from the U.S. military.
Now, she and her tour guide were taken hostage at gunpoint on April 2nd while on a game drive at Queen Elizabeth National Park. A Ugandan
government spokesman tells CNN that they were found unharmed in the Democratic Republic of Congo.
Now, again, CNN has just received this exclusive video of the American woman held hostage before being rescued. She was held hostage with her
guide. Both have been released. We'll have more on this story in the coming hours right here on CNN.
Now, let's go back to Becky who is standing by in Haifa -- Becky.
ANDERSON: That's right, still ahead, Israel on the eve of a crucial election. We're in Haifa, which is Israel's third largest city to see
what's at stake for the two main candidates and the nation. That after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[08:30:00]
ANDERSON: I'm Becky Anderson in Haifa for you. It is election eve in Israel, where voters head to the polls in a possible game-changer on
Tuesday. Now, on the line, not only the fate of the Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, but also possibly the status of Jewish settlements on
the West Bank that he is pledging to annex.
Some polls show Netanyahu trailing the Blue and White Party of his main challenger, Benny Gantz. But the outcome, still far from a done deal.
Well, let's talk more about how things could play out on Tuesday. We're joined by Yaakov Katz who is editor-in-chief of "The Jerusalem Post."
Benjamin Netanyahu playing politics, with talk of annexation of settlements in the West Bank. Is it clear how his right-wing fighting talk will play
out with voters?
YAAKOV KATZ, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, THE JERUSALEM POST: Well, I think we have to take everything with a grain of salt. Netanyahu, it is not the first time
that he has made promises on the eve of a very fateful election, like he is in the last day or so, including his promise of annexing parts of the West
Bank. And, therefore, I wouldn't be so sure that he'll actually go through with it.
But even if he does or doesn't, the point right now is to garner and recruit as many votes as possible. He is talking to his base. He is
making it very clear to the right-wing base that if they re-elect him, he will follow through on promises and give them gifts and benefits that they
haven't been able to get before, including the possible annexation of some of the settlements in the West Bank.
ANDERSON: Which means what for peace going forward, were he to do that?
KATZ: Well, Becky, it is a great question. I think that on the one hand, there's a lot of different factors at play here. First of all, what will
happen with the Trump peace plan? If Trump comes out with his peace plan, as it has been indicated possibly after the elections tomorrow, but before
there is a new government that's formed, what does it say in the peace plan about the fate of Israeli settlements in the West Bank? Do they remain
part of Israel or do they not remain part of Israel?
We also know that there are these settlement blocks. Now, if, for example, he were to just annex or apply Israeli law to the settlement blocks, that
under all peace deals, under any Israeli leader who has negotiated with the Palestinians in the past, those remained part of Israel under a future deal
with the Palestinians, that wouldn't be as big a deal as for example, annexing some of the more isolated settlements that everyone has expected
would one day be evacuated if there were to be the establishment of a Palestinian state.
So I think it really depends on the Trump peace deal, whether Netanyahu wins, what exactly he is going to annex. But again, I caution, this is an
election campaign promise. It doesn't mean that it is actually going to happen. And as he has shown in the past, most of the time, these things do
not happen.
ANDERSON: We know here, it is not about your party getting as big a vote as possible. It is all about building coalitions. How different so far as
policy is concerned would a coalition built by Benjamin Netanyahu on the right be from a coalition built by his opponent, Benny Gantz, should he be
able to actually build one and be asked to build one, if he were to win the most votes?
KATZ: First of all, according to the polls, and we haven't seen the exit polls, those only come out tomorrow night, but based on what we know right
now, it will be a little difficult for Benny Gantz to form a coalition. But if he is able to, he could form a coalition that could see some of the
parties on the left come in, maybe even some of the parties on the right.
His center-left or center-right party depends on which part inside his party you actually look at because remember, it is three parties that came
together. One leader of the party is a right-wing politician, one leader of the party is more left-wing. So it really is just a bunch of people who
came together from across the political spectrum. Therefore, I would think that Benny Gantz probably would try to move a little closer to the
Palestinians, try to reach out more strongly than Netanyahu has in recent years.
But also probably appeal to a more progressive liberal audience, like those American Jews in the United States that have been moving away from Israel
in recent years partly due to the policies of Benjamin Netanyahu.
ANDERSON: Finally, is this an election about policy or is it, in the end, about personality? And when I say personality, is this a referendum on
Benjamin Netanyahu?
[08:35:00]
KATZ: I think you're a hundred percent right, Becky, the way you framed it. This has got nothing to do with policy. No one has even debated
policy. I mean, as you know over the years, the conflict with the Palestinians and whether we should have peace with them or we shouldn't
have peace with them, has always been one of the core issues of any Israeli election -- not this time. No one is talking about it.
The only thing that people are talking about is do you want Netanyahu to continue as Prime Minister? Do you think he's been doing a good job over
the last ten years? Do you think he is the only one who can keep Israel safe? And I'll tell you two words that I hear all the time. It is called
in Hebrew "ein alternativa" and as maybe you understand in English, it means, there is no alternative. That's what a lot of people seem to think
because they've gotten so used to Netanyahu and his policies.
The economy is relatively doing well. The security situation is relatively safe and they look at what's happening today. They're not looking at the
long-term maybe strategic effects. And therefore, it is really a question right now of whether people want him or they don't want him.
If they want him, they're going to vote for him. If they don't want him, there's a good chance that Gantz will get more votes than he does tomorrow.
ANDERSON: Will the Israelis seek an alternative? Sir, thank you for that. Kristie, that is the question we are hours away now from polls opening of
course on Tuesday and we will get those indications by just before 10:00 Tuesday night. Will Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu go on to be one of
the longest serving Prime Ministers ever in Israel? Back to you.
LU STOUT: Yes, the big takeaway from your conversation just then, this is more than just an election, this is a referendum on Benjamin Netanyahu. We
will see you again. "Connect the World," Becky Anderson reporting live from Haifa, thank you.
You're watching NEWS STREAM and keep it here because up next, my exclusive interview with "New York Times" CEO, Mark Thompson. We talked Trump, we
talked Brexit, and media balance, as well. Don't miss it.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LU STOUT: Welcome back. Now, with the Trump administration, U.S.-China trade tension and Brexit, it is quite the moment to be humming in the "New
York Times." Now, former head of the BBC, Mark Thompson, he has a responsibility.
I interviewed him here in Hong Kong on a variety of topics and I started by asking him about the complicated and often combative relationship between
President Trump and "The Times."
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MARK THOMPSON, CEO, NEW YORK TIMES: That certainly seems to be his perspective judging by the tweets. I mean, the way I think about this is,
the "New York Times" does not typically give any political party or any government in quotes, "easy time." Actually, there have been very positive
coverage for example of the track of the U.S. economy which has been growing very steadily over this period. We've covered that I think fairly.
But the truth is, I think Mr. Trump is not a professional politician. He is certainly not used to the kind of rough and tumble of the way the media
has covered all Presidents and you know, in the end, I would say that our job, although obviously, we are always sorry when a loyal subscriber like
Donald Trump is unhappy with the coverage. Our first duty is to do our jobs and to make sure we're covering the U.S. President and his
administration as we try and cover everything else without fear or favor.
LU STOUT: And the ideological divide in America, you know, between Democrats and Republicans, among Americans, it is so deep and so polarized.
[08:40:02]
LU STOUT: Should journalism take a bit of responsibility for that, or is there an opportunity for journalism to say, this exists, and we need to
create a less hostile atmosphere going forward?
THOMPSON: Well, I think you'll probably know in the last few years, we've been hiring some new columnists at "The Times," including some conservative
columnists. We hired Brett Stevens, who is a Pulitzer Prize winning "Wall Street Journal" opinion writer, and he is now writing for "The New York
Times."
We want all the voices debating the future of the United States and the world in our pages. And in our news pages, we want to do justice to
perspectives again across the spectrum. Now, I won't deny the level of polarization. It is also trying to maintain actually a very old fashioned
idea of objectivity that you go to cover a story, let's say a political story, let's say in particular, the run-up to the 2020 election, not with
preconceptions in your head about what people should be thinking or even what they are thinking, but report it.
LU STOUT: And for those who say you need Donald Trump, you need to cover Donald Trump for your subscribers, for your clicks, for your audience
metrics, what do you say to them?
THOMPSON: Look, we've got an incredibly dynamic, disruptive world. Donald Trump and his election, in a way, is almost a symptom of that. He's one
result of polarization and disruption in the United States.
Now, I think we're living as journalists, in some ways, we're lucky enough to be living through an astonishing period -- a disruptive, transitional
period in world history. That's not going to stop any time soon.
LU STOUT: As the CEO of "The New York Times," as a former Director General of the BBC, as a Brit, what do you make of the mess going on in the U.K.?
THOMPSON: It's -- there's a wonderful series of comic films from the 1950s and '60s called "Carry On: movies and increasingly, this resembles one of
those. But there are fundamental questions about whether the U.K., which seemed until so recently to have thrown off its kind of problem with its
past, and to be looking forward facing and thinking about the future, open for business, creative. We seem to be backing one of these periods in
Britain where the kind of agonies about accepting our role and accepting the reality of today is very difficult for us.
So I'm afraid it is a log jam at the moment. I'd be surprised if it solved quickly, but you never know.
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LU STOUT: "The New York Times" CEO, Mark Thompson there, and tomorrow, we'll be airing part two of our interview. Do tune in as we discuss the
race to build a paying digital readership while fending off competition from tech giants like Facebook and even Apple. And that is NEWS STREAM. I
am Kristie Lu Stout, but don't go anywhere. "World Sport" with Amanda Davies is next.
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