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Treasury Expected To Miss Deadline To Hand Over President Trump's Tax Returns; New Book Details Trump's Strained Relationship With Congress; Sparks Fly At Hearing On Hate Crimes And White Nationalism. Aired 7:30-8a ET

Aired April 10, 2019 - 07:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:32:16] ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Today, a key deadline for the IRS. The House Ways and Means Chair Richard Neal has asked for six years of the president's tax returns to be handed over today.

Now, yesterday, Treasury Sec. Steven Mnuchin did not sound as though he was ready to comply.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEVEN MNUCHIN, TREASURY SECRETARY: Based on the request, we'll examine it and we will follow the law. I would expect that we would -- I'm not aware if there's been a request for an elected official's tax return, but we will follow the law and we will protect the president as we would protect any individual taxpayer under their rights.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: Joining us now is Republican Congressman Tom Reed. He is a member of the House Ways and Means Committee. Good morning, Congressman.

REP. TOM REED (R-NY): Good morning. Good to be with you.

CAMEROTA: Did it sound to you as though Sec. Mnuchin is inclined to hand over six years of Mr. Trump's taxes to your committee?

REED: Well, I do believe this is going to have to be litigated.

The Democratic chairman of the Ways and Means Committee is going down this political path of weaponizing the tax code for political purposes, and I don't know if this was the chairman's intent. I think it was just pressure within his party to bring forward this potential impeachable -- impeachment process that they're continuing to try to pursue.

CAMEROTA: How is it a political path? It is the law that the chairman of the House Ways and Means Committee is one of three people who can legally ask to see any Americans' tax returns.

REED: For the purposes of tax administration, not for political purposes. That is very clear under the law.

And that's why -- you know, this is a question that's going to have to be litigated. There's a lot of people who disagree with that assessment, but if you're using this 6103 provision of law for political purposes --

CAMEROTA: Yes.

REED: -- it's clear to me that's not what the intent to Congress was.

CAMEROTA: Well look, as you know, Chairman Neal says that he wants to see if the IRS is properly auditing the president. How is that political?

REED: Well, that -- obviously, you've watched the last 2 1/2 years of the Democratic Party, once this election occurred and it was occurring, was going after the president -- going after the president for -- to remove him from office -- to impeach him. And this is just another step in that.

They may try to argue that but you can clearly see to what the approach they have taken to this issue. It's all about impeachment and it's political.

CAMEROTA: So, to you -- just so I'm clear. To you, any Democrats' request is of a political nature?

REED: No, it clearly is of this -- when they use 6103 for the purposes like they're using it in this situation going after the president's individual return, that is clearly, in my opinion, political given all the evidence -- the totality of the evidence that I've seen in these discussions and the preparatory work up to this point in time.

This is not about tax administration. This is about political and weaponizing the tax code for political purposes, and Americans should be concerned about this. This is a dangerous precedent.

CAMEROTA: Let me read to you since you -- since you brought up 6103, let me read to you and all of our viewers what the law is and what it states.

[07:35:03] "Upon written request from the chairman of the Committee on the House Ways and Means," which is what your Chairman Neal is, "the secretary shall furnish such committee with any return or return information specified in such request, except that any return or return information which can be associated with or otherwise identify, directly or indirectly, a particular taxpayer. That shall be furnished to such committee only when sitting in closed executive session."

So if Chairman Neal says that he will do it in a closed executive session, he has the legal right to see Mr. Trump's tax returns.

REED: I disagree with that conclusion because if you look at the totality of that section and that provision of law it deals with the tax administration process of the IRS and the government; not going after someone for political purposes. And that is the slippery slope we're going down.

If you really are -- you're really concerned about this issue, we should be reforming the financial disclosure forms, making sure that they're as broad as possible so that people can see individuals who are running because it's not just a privacy right of the president. It's a privacy right of each and every American.

And on top of that, you've got to remember these tax returns are going to get into personal relationships with family members. It's going to get into business relationships. People that had no idea the president was running for office and now, all of a sudden, they're brought into the public domain in this political circus that's going to be created by these guys pursuing this impeachment offense.

CAMEROTA: And, of course, it would reveal if anything untoward were happening.

REED: Well, you know, obviously, that is a concern and that's what in the financial disclosure forms. That's what's already out there in regards to information that is available. So if there's anything untoward to pursue, why don't you look at the financial disclosure forms and pursue it under that front.

And that's the hearing where I raised the questions to the experts that were testifying, saying look, if you're worried about that why don't we look at the financial disclosure forms? Why don't we reform those disclosure reforms to provide more information? That would bring bipartisan members together to solve this problem if truly, it was about getting to that issue.

CAMEROTA: Does it concern you that Mr. Trump was very anxious to get his own handpicked person into the chief counsel position of the IRS? And it's this man named Michael Desmond who has advised the Trump Organization in the past on tax issues.

REED: You know, I'm not going to go down the path of conspiracy theories and manipulation of appointments and the innuendo --

CAMEROTA: That's not -- no, this is a fact. This is just a fact. I'm just -- this is just the facts.

REED: -- and the innuendo of the question.

CAMEROTA: I just want to know if it concerns you.

REED: What I'm going to respond to is exactly what 6103 is about what are we doing in regard to protecting privacy rights of individuals.

And it doesn't concern me because these are individuals that are going to pursue the law, in my opinion, and they're going to pursue the law the rightful way as opposed to engaging in the politics that's overtaken Washington, D.C.

CAMEROTA: I mean, obviously, there are different interpretations of the law, so I'm just asking if you're concerned that a handpicked associate -- someone who is familiar with Mr. Trump's taxes -- is now in the position of making that decision.

REED: If you're saying he was put there just to deal with the Trump tax return -- you know, that's a very egregious allegation. And this conspiracy theory that I can already see developing amongst folks on the left --

CAMEROTA: Why do you think he was put there?

REED: To administer and do the job that he was appointed to do and follow the law. And pursue the law and do his job as best as he can to make sure that the position is being pursued in a proper and lawful manner.

CAMEROTA: And it doesn't -- yes, understood.

REED: Not to protect -- not to protect the president. Not to -- not to get somebody in there in order to engage in nefarious practices to protect the president.

I just don't buy that. I think people are better than that.

CAMEROTA: It just -- the only reason we ask is because of the reports that the president was more interested in this and rushing Sen. Mitch McConnell to do this over the attorney general, Bill Barr. So that's just a curious anxiousness on the part of the president and I wanted to know your thoughts on that.

REED: Yes. Well, I believe that they're pursuing -- and you bring up the appointment process in the Senate and since we're having that conversation they should probably move some of these folks a little bit faster than they're doing today.

CAMEROTA: We're almost out of time but very quickly, do you think the president should reinstate the policy on the border of family separation?

REED: No, I do not believe that's going to occur nor do I support that. I think Congress should do its job and fix the broken immigration system that's creating this situation. But at the end of the day, I don't -- I'm not concerned about that occurring.

CAMEROTA: Congressman Tom Reed, we appreciate you being on NEW DAY with your perspective. Thank you.

REED: It's always good to be with you.

CAMEROTA: Thanks so much -- John.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: All right.

They cover Congress every day, so how has it changed since President Trump took office? The authors of one of the most highly-anticipated books in Washington in years, I would say -- they join us, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:43:23] BERMAN: Our next guests have spent the last two years getting an inside look at the Trump presidency as seen from the Halls of Congress. The result of their effort is the new book, "The Hill to Die On: The Battle for Congress and the Future of Trump's America," which is out now. I hold it in my hands.

Joining us now, Jake Sherman and Anna Palmer, who also co-write the "Politico Playbook." Guys, thank you so much for being with us.

I want to read to you a quote that's getting a lot of attention from this book because I think it's a microcosm of this entire struggle between Congress and the president here.

And it has to do with a meeting -- and the president was sitting in a chair by Gary Cohn -- about infrastructure. It was about infrastructure, right?

JAKE SHERMAN, AUTHOR, THE HILL TO DIE ON: THE BATTLE FOR CONGRESS AND THE FUTURE OF TRUMP'S AMERICA, SENIOR WRITER, POLITICO, CO-AUTHOR, POLITICO'S PLAYBOOK: Right.

BERMAN: All right. He was taking notes furiously.

"People in the room were impressed that Trump -- who cared little about policy particulars -- seemed to be so engaged in Cohn's proposal, especially after seeming so skeptical right after the presentation.

But the notes had nothing to do with infrastructure. 'Sloppy Steve,' Trump had scrawled on the top of the card in black marker. Copious notes then followed. As Cohn had detailed his plans to rebuild America's roads, the president was writing down how he wanted to trash Steve Bannon."

Now, without getting into the particulars of Steve Bannon, what, to me, this shows is there are people in the administration and Congress trying to govern and the president's doing something decidedly different, Anna.

ANNA PALMER, AUTHOR, THE HILL TO DIE ON: THE BATTLE FOR CONGRESS AND THE FUTURE OF TRUMP'S AMERICA, SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT, POLITICO.COM, CO-AUTHOR, POLITICO'S PLAYBOOK: Yes. I mean, I think what this shows is all the behavior you think the president is doing he actually is doing.

He's thinking about branding, he's thinking about how he's going to trash the next person who he thinks has wronged him instead of actually trying to figure out how he can figure out -- you know, solve the infrastructure and road crisis of this country.

CAMEROTA: Jake, I like that they thought that he was taking notes --

[07:45:00] SHERMAN: Yes.

CAMEROTA: -- and they -- and it was different. This was novel. They were so excited that he was actually paying attention to the policy particulars. And then they were like oh no, he's doodling.

SHERMAN: If you dig a little bit deeper I think, I think this does show kind of a larger truth about Donald Trump that he's not really interested in what the party -- what the senior people at the party think he needs to do to improve his political fortunes.

And we detail that throughout the book on a lot of instances. On health care, on tax reform, on policy, on political positions, on election strategy. I mean, just throughout the book we see the president ignoring party elders and at times, doing it with glee because he thinks they know nothing and he knows everything.

BERMAN: And oddly, one of the strains throughout the book is there's an admiration -- an awed admiration for Nancy Pelosi --

SHERMAN: Yes.

BERMAN: -- and Chuck Schumer, and a distinct disdain for the Republican leaders.

SHERMAN: Yes. I think the president is almost jealous that he never had a speaker or a political leader on Capitol Hill who keeps the troops together as well as Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer have.

I think -- he told us that. There's a great line at the end of the book -- a great quote from the president when we interviewed him where he says Democrats stink on policy. They're -- they have the worst ideas in the world but they stick together, which is a very fascinating insight into his mind.

PALMER: Yes. I also think -- I mean, one thing that is really true is he also has a personal relationship with Chuck Schumer and Nancy Pelosi. He has a lot more in common with them than Paul Ryan and Mitch McConnell -- you know, people from the Midwest. And there's also a real ease with which he interacts with them as well.

CAMEROTA: You did 26 months of reporting, you interviewed scores of people. What did you find out how the Republicans in Congress have been able to so unabashedly get on board with what the president wants to do, even when it used to go against things that they said they believed in?

SHERMAN: I think the reality on Capitol Hill now -- and we see this every day and it certainly became clear in the book -- is that Republicans represent districts around the country that are so fervently in favor of Donald Trump that there's no political incentive. Actually, there's a political downside to opposing the president on almost every issue.

I mean, this president has, of course, changed the Republican Party but people are going home and their constituents are saying to them, why haven't you been with the president more? Why are you not standing by him and protecting him more?

And some members have retired because they just felt like they couldn't be with him as much as their constituents want to. PALMER: Yes. No, I think you're absolutely right.

And I think the other thing that was -- we really found in this book in talking to members and also talking to the president when we sat down with him is how much access they have to him.

SHERMAN: Yes.

PALMER: It is unlike any other presidency before where typically, we go through the leadership and then they all -- you know, the party elders would make a decision, and then it would kind of all funnel down.

You have Donald Trump calling Republican rank and file members asking them what they think on a wide variety of issues. It's pretty unheard of.

BERMAN: And they can get through to him.

We don't have much time left but we want to cover two more things.

The saga of Paul Ryan.

SHERMAN: Oh, yes.

BERMAN: He quit. I mean, he'd had enough of all this.

SHERMAN: Yes. Paul Ryan, at the beginning of this -- the 2016 -- right after the election, thought he had reached a fork in the road.

He was vehemently opposed to Donald Trump during the 2016 election and he thought he could either leave Congress, which he considered -- he talked to his advisers about retiring -- or he could get on board with Trump and try to project some normalcy in government.

And he said to us in a great quote, if I just never-Trumped and took my toys home and huffed and puffed, that wouldn't have served anybody's interest, which is stunning for the Speaker of the House to say -- basically concede that it was his instinct to never-Trump and to take his toys home, and he didn't do that.

CAMEROTA: Let's talk about the vice president, Sean Hannity, and how often -- I mean, it is fascinating in your book how often he is involved in policy conference calls.

PALMER: Yes. I think that was one of the stunning things throughout the book that we detailed is him being on conference calls and with Republicans and with the president on health care.

We still have members of Congress leaving private meetings where they're deciding what they're going to do on major issues and the first call is Sean Hannity.

CAMEROTA: That they make or that he calls them?

SHERMAN: Both. PALMER: Both.

SHERMAN: Both ways. I mean, we were -- during the shutdown, Jim Jordan was in almost constant contact with Sean Hannity over it. And this isn't a criticism of them but it shows Sean Hannity's hold on members of Congress and on the president.

BERMAN: Senate-confirmed Sean Hannity, by the way.

All right, Jake, Anna, stick around. We're not done with you --

SHERMAN: Good.

BERMAN: -- just yet.

CAMEROTA: All right.

A House hearing on white nationalism took a surprising turn in the chamber and online. Why the livestream was shut down. All of that, next.

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[07:53:35] CAMEROTA: A Congressional hearing on white nationalism turned ugly, both in the House chamber and online.

CNN's Sara Sidner was there and she joins us from Washington. What happened, Sara?

SARA SIDNER, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: You know, this was supposed to be about hate and combatting hate, especially online, as well as the rise in white nationalism.

And there was a lot of talk about the things that have happened just in the past year or so.

You're talking about what happened in New Zealand with the killing of 50 people at a mosque there at the hands of someone with white nationalist ideals.

We're talking about what happened in Pittsburgh. The mass shooting there inside the Tree of Life synagogue.

But unfortunately, it devolved into partisan showmanship at some point during this hearing and it happened pretty quickly, to be completely honest with you.

And, YouTube and Facebook, Google all there to talk about their role in all of this and what they're doing to try to combat hatred, especially online, which can be inciteful and incite people to violence.

And to give you a sign of the times, right as this was going on, YouTube was streaming this Judiciary Committee hearing and they had to disable the comments because there were so many anti-Semitic and racist comments being put there that they decided that it needed to be disabled, which gives you some idea of the discourse that's going on online.

[07:55:00] But then, as people were talking to YouTube and people were talking to representatives from Google and Facebook and asking them what they're going to do, Facebook did say that they had just started wiping their platforms of white nationalist content, not just white supremacist content, saying basically those ideologies are inseparable -- they're the same thing.

And after that, though, there was certainly a bipartisan -- or not -- sorry, a partisan tinge to this hearing when we heard from Candace Owens, who is a conservative blogger. She was brought in by Republicans. She attacked the Democrats in her opening speech.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CANDACE OWENS, CONSERVATIVE BLOGGER: The hearing today is not about white nationalism or hate crimes, it's about fearmongering, power, and control. It's a preview of a Democrat 2020 election strategy, same as the Democrat 2016 election strategy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SIDNER: She questioned the statistics, saying that they had been manipulated when it comes to the rise in hate crimes that we saw the FBI put out there. That there's a 17 percent rise in hate crimes in 2017 and that it has been rising steadily for the last couple of years. She questioned those statistics.

But then, Democrats did push back. You saw one of the Democrats on the Judiciary Committee, Cedric Richmond, talking about -- referring to her and talking about the fact that these hate crimes are clearly happening in greater numbers. All you have to do is consider the victims.

And he mentioned the victims from the South Carolina church shooting.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. CEDRIC RICHMOND (D-LA): It was said that we're fearmongering. I would just tell you that the families of 'The Emanuel Nine' -- those were real funerals.

Those are real kids without real parents. Those are real grandparents who were worshipping the Lord and invited the young man in.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SIDNER: So you see there it started to become this whole argument between whether white nationalism really was a big deal -- whether it was a problem as opposed to looking at the statistics and looking at the numbers.

But certainly, there was a lot of discussion about what to do online and both the executive from Google and the executive from Facebook said that they are working on things with coalitions, trying to rid their platforms of hateful content that incites violence -- John. BERMAN: All right. Sara Sidner, thank you for the report. Thank you for sitting through that hearing for us.

Maybe along these lines, investigators in Louisiana believe fires at three historically black churches in the last 10 days were intentionally set. Now, some pastors are sleeping in their churches to keep them from burning down.

CNN's Josh Campbell is live in Louisiana with the very latest. Josh, what have you learned here?

JOSH CAMPBELL, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Hey, John.

We're here in Opelousas. It's a very rural area, as you can tell. This isn't a metropolitan area. All three of these churches have been located in very remote areas.

Just look at the devastation here. As we pan, you can see we're at the Greater Union Baptist Church. And as you look at the front of what used to be a sanctuary -- and you can almost envision the choir sitting in these seats singing -- this is now a total loss.

We're told that over 100 investigators are now on this case trying to determine who set this fire. We're told by a local elected official that investigators believe that it was intentional.

This fire, along with the other two -- they're working now to try to again determine what evidence that they can find that would lead them to the person or persons that were responsible for this.

Now, it's also important to remember this story is more than just buildings. Obviously, this is devastation behind us.

It's also a story about people. As you mentioned, we're told that some pastors in nearby churches are sleeping overnight in their churches out of fear that they may be targeted next.

We talked to one person who didn't want to go on camera and didn't want us to mention where he was for fear that he might be targeted, and he really talked about the agonizing nature of this. That he was sleeping overnight in this church, hearing every creak, every sound, every passing car, wondering if they're going to be next.

Lastly, I'll have to say this community has been very resilient. We talked to one person yesterday as we rolled up on the rubble. We were expecting him to talk about how angry he was, how devastated.

We asked him what he was doing John, and he said he was waiting for the electric company to show up. They're going to start rebuilding.

BERMAN: All right, Josh Campbell. Devastating pictures around you. I hope they get the help they need to rebuild and I hope the investigation yields some results.

Thank you very much, Josh. We have new reporting on what the attorney general is now investigating involving the FBI's Russia investigation -- investigating the investigators. So let's get to it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WILLIAM BARR, ATTORNEY GENERAL: I don't intend to send the full unredacted report to the committee.

REP. JERRY NADLER (D-NY): If we don't get everything, we will issue the subpoena and go to court.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They want to keep this narrative alive. They don't want to say there was no conspiracy.

STEVEN MNUCHIN, TREASURY SECRETARY: Our legal department has consulted with the White House.

REP. MAXINE WATERS (D-CA): I have the gavel at this point. If you wish to leave, you may.

MNUCHIN: Can you clarify that for me?

WATERS: Yes. Clarify is this.

MNUCHIN: So are this --

WATERS: If you wish to leave, you may.

CAMEROTA: Actress Lori Loughlin facing more charges in that college admission scandal.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Those who didn't strike a deal with prosecutors ran the risk of facing more charges.

END