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WikiLeaks Founder Julian Assange Arrested; Trump: I Know Nothing About WikiLeaks; Sudan's Longtime Dictator Ousted In Military Coup; Trump Pushed To Release Migrants Into "Sanctuary Cities"; Former Pope Breaks Silence On Church Sex Abuse Crisis. Aired 1-2a ET
Aired April 12, 2019 - 01:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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[01:00:00] JOHN VAUSE, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Seven years in a tiny room comes to an end for Julian Assange. Dragged from the Ecuadorian Embassy now facing extradition to the U.S., and the WikiLeaks founder has no intention of going quietly.
The military seizes power in Sudan after nationwide protests forced longtime dictator Omar al-Bashir to step down ending 30 years in power. This hour as CNN special report on life under his oppressive rule. And former Pope Benedict breaks six years of silence to blame the Catholic Church sex abuse crisis on the 1960s sexual revolution setting up a very public rift of the current Pope.
Hello and welcome to our viewers all around the world. Great time with us. I'm John Vause, you're watching CNN NEWSROOM. For the past seven years, Julian Assange is called Flat 3B, Hans Crescent in Knightsbridge home. It's an upmarket address in London. It's also the Embassy of Ecuador just across the street from Tiffany's in the world famous Harrods Department Store, but no more.
The now bearded founder of WikiLeaks was arrested Thursday, hauled out of his self-imposed exile at the Embassy where he'd been hiding in plain asylum protected sight. His stay costing Ecuador more than $6 million. When he appear in court, the judge called Assange a narcissist who cannot get beyond his own selfish interest.
He was found guilty of breaking bail conditions, faces out to a year in jail but that might just be the start of his problems. We have more details now from CNN's Alex Marquardt.
ALEX MARQUARDT, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: A dramatic end to Julian Assange's nearly seven years at the Ecuadorian Embassy in London. Resisting arrest and refusing to come out, he was dragged out by officers. His signature gray hair now long in a ponytail, a new bushy beard shouting at the crowd.
Assange now faces possible extradition to the United States where he is charged with conspiring to help former intelligence analyst Chelsea Manning who's now in prison for breaking into Defense Department computers and leaking secret documents in 2010. JENNIFER ROBINSON, LAWYER OF JULIAN ASSANGE: I've just been with Mr.
Assange in the police cells. He wants to thank all of his supporters for their ongoing support and he said I told you so.
MARQUARDT: His lawyer claims that Assange who started WikiLeaks was simply acting as a journalist and is protected under the First Amendment.
ROBINSON: This precedent means that any journalist can be extradited for persecution in the United States for having published truthful information about the United States.
MARQUARDT: But U.S. prosecutors charged Assange's role in the leak went much farther agreeing to help Manning in cracking a password to gain access to the classified information. Among the secret material released by WikiLeaks was a video in 2007 of the U.S. airstrike that killed a dozen Iraqis including two men working for the Reuters news agency.
U.S. officials and Assange critics accused him of putting American national security at risk as well as threatening military forces, diplomats, and covert sources.
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC): I've repeatedly condemned the guy. He will be offered a fair trial. The wheels of justice are finally turning. He's never been a hero. He released classified information that put our troops in danger.
MARQUARDT: The Justice Department says more charges could be on the way. Assange has so far not been charged in relation to the Russian hacking of the Democrats during the 2016 presidential race. A race that saw then-candidate Trump publicly praising and encouraging the WikiLeaks dumps.
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: This just came out. WikiLeaks, I love WikiLeaks.
MARQUARDT: Longtime Trump friend and associate Roger Stone is now facing charges of working with WikiLeaks to gain access to the stolen e-mails while coordinating with the Trump campaign. Today's arrests coming after Ecuador decided to revoke his asylum.
The president accusing Assange of hostile and threatening behavior against the country which also says the 47-year-old Australian was a terrible guest, even putting feces on the embassy walls.
MARQUARDT: Ecuador also says it spent over $6 million on Assange over those almost seven years, most of it in security expenses. Now, the judge in London ordered Assange to remain in custody until a hearing about his extradition to the United States that is set for three weeks from now on May 2nd. Alex Marquardt, CNN Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VAUSE: Joining us now from San Diego is Harry Litman, a former U.S. attorney, and former Deputy Assistant Attorney General. Harry, thank you for being with us.
HARRY LITMAN, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY: Thanks for having me John.
VAUSE: We heard from one of our sergeants barristers a few hours ago again pushing this argument that Assange and WikiLeaks have done nothing wrong. They're just like any other media organization trying to get the truth out. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KRISTINN HRAFNSSON, EDITOR IN CHIEF, WIKILEAKS: It simply is so that the organization that WikiLeaks published information pertaining to an upcoming election as is the primary duty of every journalist to do. It would have been a journalistic crime not to publish the information whatever the outcome, whatever feelings people may have towards the parties or party involved.
That is simply the basis of the entire thing. That's what should be in the main focus in the journalistic world is simply journalism.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[01:05:35] VAUSE: And the Democratic Presidential Candidate Tulsi Gabbard has warned in a tweet that the arrests of Assange was meant to send a warning to journalists to be quiet, to toe the line. But what's interesting, federal authorities have charged Assange under the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act which is a very vague one-size-fits-all approach to a misconduct online.
In the case of Assange, it's alleged she conspired to break into a government computer to try and break the password. There's nothing in the indictment which turns on whether or not Assad is a journalist or whether he's considered a journalist. Does that mean the Justice Department sees merit in what Assange and WikiLeaks are claiming that they, in fact, acting as journalists or is it just simply an argument they would rather not have?
LITMAN: I think as between the two, John, it's an argument they would rather not have. But everyone has been focused on this. From day one Assange has sort of wrapped himself in the free press flag. He'll continue to do it. And I think it was a very deliberate decision by the Department of Justice to steer well clear of it.
It was a decision that was greeted with some relief in the United States even among people who are dubious about Assange and dubious about his claims that he's just another journalist. It's -- there's a real argument you could have on the merits that he's not. But the U.S. wanted to steer clear of any such argument and just focus on -- I wouldn't say such a morphus vague conduct. He and Manning conspired in the indictment to break the secret code of a computer.
That would be a crime whether you're a journalist or a hacker or a fun lover or an enemy. It's that conduct and it really is in a very studied way in the indictment something entirely separate from journalistic activity. VAUSE: It interesting because Assange lawyers actually want to try
and take that and move it back into the journalistic sphere. One of the lawyers are Barry Pollack issued a statement which read in part. The factual allegations boiled down to encouraging a source to provide him information and taking efforts to protect the identity of that source.
It seems a big stretch to say you know, encouraging Chelsea Manning to break into a government computer you know, to get into the password and access all those secrets, is the same thing as encouraging a source to you know, give over information. Those two things just seem completely unrelated.
LITMAN: It's a lot of boiling down as Barry Pollock you know, would try to have it. It doesn't boil down to that at all. And he very noticeably avoided saying what the charge actually is. So that's going to be the point that the -- for Assange's defenders.
OK, we know what it says on paper but here's what it's really about. It's really about his being a journalist who is opposed to the United States. That's in the grand tradition of the Free Press whom you want to protect the most. And that's what it's "really about."
Of course, it's not. And when you go to court it will be you know quite clear when there's a jury there, here's what we have to prove, here's what we have proven, and in fact it might even be that Assange isn't even permitted to introduce some of the First Amendment defenses because as you say, if everything had stopped just after he'd acquired the password, it would still be a crime.
It really is irrelevant that he is a sort of self-defined swashbuckling hero journalist. That's got nothing to do with the conduct that the United States alleged. Now there's going to be possibly more crime charged. They will likely also avoid anything about free press and free expression and tact very carefully to the security problems that Assange is charged within this so-called 1030 charge, this conspiracy with Manning to break a secret password.
VAUSE: Essentially because there has been this debate which has been ongoing here within the U.S. government on whether or not to arrest Assange. On Thursday President Trump weighed in on that. He was asked about Assange's arrest. This is what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I know nothing about WikiLeaks. It's not my thing. I know nothing really about him. It's not my -- it's not my deal in life.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[01:10: 05] VAUSE: Yes, except it is. He knows plenty about WikiLeaks. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: This just came out. WikiLeaks, I love WikiLeaks. This WikiLeaks stuff is unbelievable. Another one came in today. This WikiLeaks is like treasure trove. I love reading those WikiLeaks.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VAUSE: Yes. It is what it is. The Russia investigation is close but there are still all these unanswered questions about Assange and WikiLeaks. Russia use them according to intelligence both as a way you know, both Assange and WikiLeaks as a way of you know, releasing these stolen e-mails from the Clinton campaign.
So what are the chances here that Assange you know, could now facing questioning and maybe even charges on that front. I guess if there was enough evidence of wrongdoing, he would have been indicted when the Mueller reporters was handed in.
LITMAN: Maybe. Look, there -- the Mueller probe is completed but that doesn't mean everything here is complete. There is a pending counterintelligence investigation. There are other cases that were offshoots of the Mueller probe. Roger Stone is under indictment and that case is going to go forward. He essentially is alleged to have conspired with WikiLeaks and to have known about the discharge of their hacked e-mails and we sort of stopped at the final step to know whether or not he had spoken with the president. But that's a very live issue.
And in fact, there's a flipside here. It's possible that in addition to playing the First Amendment Free Press card, Assange will try to sort of tie up his case with national security information to make it difficult for the U.S. to go forward without revealing classified information. Sometimes defendants will try that as well.
But the possibility that even though the Mueller probe is finished, the extant parts of the probe that have gone out to other places especially the Roger Stone case will still delve into Assange's conduct with people in the United States.
VAUSE: Harry, we're out of time but I just want to very quickly show you some of the high profile visitors who turned up through that all room in the Ecuadorian ambassador over the years. There was Pamela Anderson of Baywatch fame with vegan sandwiches, we had Lady Gaga turning up. That was back in 2012 I think, we have Noam Chomsky there you know, sharing his wisdom with Julian Assange. Also one point Manchester United's Eric Cantona was you know, giving him a couple of workout lessons.
You know, it's amazing to think that you know there was 24/7 British police surveillance outside. That costs the British taxpayer at 13 million pounds. His stay at the Embassy cost the government of Equador $6 million. It's been in costly seven years, right?
LITMAN: Yes it has, and a strange one also.
VAUSE: Yes, bizarre indeed. Harry, thank you. Good to see you.
LITMAN: Thanks for having me.
VAUSE: Assange spent almost seven years in that 18 square meter room and hygiene may not have been a priority. Later this hour, we'll talk to a prison psychologist about the physical and emotional impact on Assange of living in such a confined space for such a long time.
Well, moving on now. Sudan is facing an uncertain future after its longtime dictator Omar al-Bashir was ousted in a coup and a military council has taken over. For months, nationwide protests had demand Bashir to step down.
And they say they'll continue to protest until the military hands over power to a civilian government. But the military council has declared a two year period to transfer authority. They've already suspended the Constitution, declare a state of emergency, and post a nighttime curfew and ordered the release of all political prisoners.
Even so, just weeks ago, the hour service year seemed unthinkable. His security forces were detaining, torturing, even shooting protesters. And CNN's Senior International Correspondent Nima Elbagir was among a handful of journalist risking their lives to show the world what was happening.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
NIMA ELBAGIR, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Khartoum, Sudan's capital, as I was growing up here, the government's grip on its people was all encompassing. But a rise in the cost of living in recent years has triggered protests against one of the world's longest-serving dictators President Omar al-Bashir.
The Sudanese government doesn't want the world to know what's happening. Any journalist caught reporting on the demonstrations risks life imprisonment and the death penalty. In the crowd, I try to stand back and film with secret cameras and smartphones and hope that I'm not spotted.
I smell the tear gas as they've been releasing them on other demonstrations a little bit further way. The people here are starting to get tense.
Some of the demonstrators start shouting that national security agents are on their way. Operatives infamous for their brutality, we have to leave.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
[01:15:01] JOHN VAUSE, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Well, Nima grew up under Bashir's rule. She'd describe what that was like, also her thoughts on this coo.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ELBAGIR: I was 11 years old when Omar al-Bashir came to power. I have known no other government in a real sense other than his government. And overnight, our lives changed. We went from having a normal life.
Girls wearing shorts to play sports, running around with your head uncovered. And we were -- we were children. We were -- we weren't even teenagers. And overnight, these women with niqab, with their faces covered invaded our schools and were holding up measuring tapes to see how long our skirts covered.
And suddenly, there were morality police on the streets questioning you about who you were standing next to you. But what I remember most is those first few hours and days, and how empty those streets were. And how everybody was watching and waiting to see what was coming next.
And I think about that a lot. I've thought about that a lot. Because I think, I never really believed that he would go. So many of the people that we've been speaking to hoped and prayed but more importantly believed that al-Bashir would go.
And what's extraordinary is that most of those that were demonstrating against President Omar Bashir -- his children, they are the generation that grew up under him. The majority of Sudan's population is under 30. And that is the majority of the people that were at that sitting.
And yet, in spite of the fact that they had known nothing other than him, nothing other than the apparatus in the infrastructure of his rule and his oppression. That they had no real freedom of expression, or freedom of the press, or freedom of assembly. They still were able to dream it, and they were able to visualize it.
And even now, many of those that we're speaking to on the ground say, that they will not leave the sitting sights until they are guaranteed a peaceful civilian transfer of rule. That what they want is democracy.
In spite of never having experienced it, what they have fought for is something that they believe they deserve and that is freedom. And that is what they are going to continue to fight for. They are very cognizant of what happened in Egypt after the ouster of Mubarak. They have seen what is possible in Algeria with the declaration of the civilian transition and of elections there. And that is what they want for themselves and that's what they want for their country. And we, hopefully, will be watching and waiting as they continue to push for that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VAUSE: Nima Elbagir, there on her experience growing up in Sudan.
A source tells CNN, the U.S. President Donald Trump, personally pushed a plan to release detained immigrants into so-called American sanctuary cities. Retaliation against Democrats who oppose his border wall.
CNN has confirmed that Mr. Trump pressured the outgoing Homeland Security Secretary Kirstjen Nielsen to back the plan. But she resisted, and homeland security lawyers killed the plan. Saying it would likely be illegal.
Sanctuary city has policies to limit cooperation with federal immigrant enforcement. President Trump has labeled them a threat to public safety. Democrat so say, it's worth to perhaps criminal to send immigrants including children to these cities as an attempt at political payback.
Still to come here. When he announced his plans to retire, Pope Benedict promised to remain silent. But now, he's made his first public comments after six years, pointedly contradicting Pope Francis on the clerical sexual abuse crisis.
Also ahead, the U.S. and South Korea talking about the possibility of talks with North Korea. Mr. Trump says it's now all up to the North famously unpredictable leader. More on that in just a moment.
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[01:21:33] VAUSE: We have this just in from Pakistan. 14 people have been killed in a bomb blast in Quetta. Police tell CNN, the explosion happened at a fruit market, more than two dozen people are reported wounded. No immediate claim of responsibility. One government officials said in a statement, "We will not bow before terrorists." More details as we get them.
Former Pope Benedict XVI has made his first public comments. Notably taking a very different stand from the current pope on the causes of sexual abuse crisis within the Roman Catholic Church.
In an essay, he blames the scandal on overly modern teachings in the clergy, as well as the sexual revolution of 50 years ago. That contradicts Pope Francis, who faults church culture for the crisis which puts priests above ordinary Catholics. CNN religion commentator Father Edward Beck has been watching all of this unfold. He is with us live from Los Angeles. Father Beck, good to see you.
EDWARD BECK, CNN RELIGION COMMENTATOR: You too, John.
VAUSE: OK. Not a word out of Joseph Ratzinger for six years -- not a word. And when he decides to go public, he writes a letter which makes absolutely no sense. And that's being polite. Here is one line which stood out. "Among the freedoms that the revolution of 1968 sought to fight for was this all-out sexual freedom, one which no longer conceded any norms. Pedophilia was then also diagnosed as allowed and appropriate."
I have no idea about Mr. Ratzinger's life growing up in Germany. But I don't know any way that allowed pedophilia or (INAUDIBLE) to be appropriate. What is he talking about?
BECK: Well, John, let's remember, OK, next week, he turns 92. And you're right. He said he was going to remain hidden from the world, and suddenly this is the issue that he deems to speak about. And he said he wants to help Francis in this crisis in some way.
And supposedly, Francis knew he was going to release this. The Secretary of State Parolin knew. And they said, go ahead and release it. But it does seem very contrary to what Francis has been saying to blame the sexual revolution of the 60s. Well, yes, most of the perpetrators were in the 60s -- the 1960s, but they were formed before that. In the 40s, in the 50s, it's a pre- Vatican to theology that formed most of the perpetrators. So, why blame this liberal theology or the sexual revolution when it happened before that?
VAUSE: Exactly. So, I mean, the other thing too, and just for the record. The sexual revolution took place mostly in Western Europe, and in the United States. And at that time in the 60s, the Catholic Church was growing and was mostly present and a very large presence and a growing presence in Africa, and in South America. So, where is the logic there of his theory? How does it work then?
BECK: I don't really see the logic, John. And I think that he's misguided in what he's saying. What Pope Francis says is that clericalism, patriarchy, the abuse of power, the subjugation of others, is the cause of this.
So, to blame the sexual revolution again, it had nothing existentially, factually, to do with the abuse crisis. I mean, to say, that is to say, well, what about other segments of society? Where suddenly, people becoming pedophiles because there was sexual liberation? He makes some comment about on planes, they used to be explicit movies that cause violence.
Well, to my knowledge, all of that was always edited on planes. I'm not really sure what he's talking about. So, I think somebody should have protected in some way this pope emeritus from even releasing this because it looks like he's so out of touch with the reality of the situation is.
[01:25:09] VAUSE: That is -- that's being very kind. I mean, but here is a problem though, if you -- if you look at -- you know, social media -- especially, Catholic social media, it is blowing up. There is -- the conservatives feel vindicated, they've got an ally, they've got the former pope -- you know, on their side now. And -- you know, the progressive side if you like of the church, you know, incredibly dismayed by this.
BECK: That is true, John. And you know, he says that the absence of God in the society has also caused this. So, you're blaming then society for it in the absence of God. Well, the absence of God was with the priest perpetrators.
I mean, they are the ones who were not aligned with God, so why blame the culture or the society? It's as if this exists outside of the institution and caused the priests or the institution to do this.
And I think again, sometimes I think Pope Francis even falls into this. You know he blames the devil or evil. Well, if there's any evil or devil, it's in the perpetrators who are -- you know, perpetrating the crimes. Don't kind of blame this outside force that's causing this.
And I think it's just kind of a really misguided theological-spiritual notion that is far outdated what the situation is. VAUSE: It's one step removed from mistakes were made. You know, but you mentioned that Pope Francis, the one who isn't the quitter, the one who is still there, the one who's a pope. He would have signed off on this letter, if so, why would he sign off on it?
BECK: Well, I think, look, you have a pope emeritus who's 92. And you're not going to basically tell him what to say he can't say. I mean, he treats him as an equal. I mean, he supposedly still consults with him, visit him.
So, if the Pope Benedict -- pope emeritus says, look, I have this document that I want to release. Unless there's something really egregious in it. The pope is going to say go ahead. He's not necessarily agreeing with the theological perspective of Benedict, but he's not going to say, you can't do that.
I mean, that would be very kind of rare, I think. And again, we haven't had this situation for 600 years. We've never had in our lifetime two living popes. The pope emeritus and a present pope. So, I mean, they're treading waters that have not really been traversed in our modern society.
And so, I just think Francis going to say -- you know, do what you want to do here, but I don't think that Francis would agree with the perspective at all.
VAUSE: Here is the opening line to a story which appeared at the National Catholic Reporter, February 28th, 2013. "Addressing church leaders for one of the last times of his papacy, Benedict said that he intends to live hidden from the world and a life dedicated to prayer after his retirement on Thursday."
So, he's obviously decided that that's any longer -- you know, going to play. So, why would he decide to come out and make this -- you know, write this essay now. And on this particular topic.
BECK: Well, I'm sure in some way, John, he feels a little defensive on the topic. Remember, for 24 years, he was the watchdog of the doctrinal office of the church, when basically John Paul II was Pope. And this issue was not handled by John Paul II.
I mean, this was the time of Maciel, a notorious abuser who was a priest, who was never -- he never went after. Remember, McCarrick would have been. I mean, he would have known about this whole McCarrick story, as well, Pope Benedict would've, as far as the accusations. That was never acted upon. And they were blaming kind of -- well, John Paul II didn't want to act on it.
Well, maybe Benedict is feeling a little bit guilty about the fact that during that whole tenure, none of that was done, except that when he became pope. Finally, he began to take priests out of ministry who were abusers. So, Benedict actually did act and he did something.
But I think, maybe he's feeling like his legacy is going to be tarnished by this. So, maybe this is the last salvo -- you know before he goes to meet his creator. And he wants to get his perspective out there.
VAUSE: Very quickly. Staying hidden from the world, it was a good idea back in 2013. I would say it's an even better idea now because none of this is helpful.
BECK: Yes, I agree with you, John. I think it clouds the issue. I think it off escapes what is the main concerns that we should be focusing on that Francis is trying to focus on. And I think, would have been much better and much more prudent so Pope Benedict Emeritus to be silent on this.
VAUSE: Yes, the Holy Father has enough without this.
BECK: I agree.
VAUSE: Father Beck, thank you.
BECK: Thank you, John.
VAUSE: Well, psychological toll, Julian Assange is now behind bars but his confinement started years ago. Look at the price he's already forced to put himself and what might lie ahead.
Also, Venezuela's proven oil reserves said to be the biggest in the world. So, why other store shelves all empty across the country? Why are the people impoverished? CNN travels to Venezuela's oil-rich region in search of answers.
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[01:32:19] JOHN VAUSE, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome back, everybody.
I'm John Vause with an update on the top news this hour.
Protest leaders in Sudan are urging anti government demonstrators to stay in the streets even after the ouster of longtime dictator Omar al-Bashir. The military is now in control and protestors want them to step aside for civilian government.
British Prime Minister Theresa May says she will not resign, despite calls from members of her own party. She has been criticized for accepting a Brexit delay until October 31st. Mrs. May says Britain can still leave the E.U. before then but it's the national duty of lawmakers to come up with an agreement with the E.U. first.
And WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange taken into custody in London on Thursday. He resisted arrest, and was dragged out of the Ecuadorean embassy where he has spent the past seven years in self-imposed exile.
A British judge found him guilty of violating his bail conditions. Assange now faces possible extradition to the United States on one count of conspiring to steal military secrets.
Eighteen square meters, about 200 square feet. Not a lot of space. It's about the same size of our studio here at the CNN Center in Atlanta. It's also, for the most part the size of Julian Assange's world for six and a half years. That's how big, or perhaps more appropriately how small, his office turned bedroom was in the tiny Ecuador embassy in London, tucked away just behind the world's most famous department store of Harrod's.
And in that room there was just the basics. You can see here -- this is what it was. There was a single mattress. He had a table, a meeting table. There was a dresser, a bookcase. He was given a treadmill by one supporter. But it was all very, very basic.
And what we're told is that by the end of his time there, Julian Assange was a most unwelcome houseguest.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARIA PAULA ROMO, ECUADORIAN INTERNAL MINISTER (through translator): They tolerated things like Mr. Assange putting feces on the wall of the embassy, and other types of behavior of this nature.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VAUSE: Living in such a confined space for such an extended period of time has taken a toll on Assange, and for more on that, clinical psychologist Jeff Gardere joins us now.
And Jeff, you actually worked as a prison psychologist as well.
JEFF GARDERE, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: I did, yes.
VAUSE: So that's particularly relevant at this point especially given the size of, you know, Assange's living conditions here. That's basically the size of a prison cell in many ways.
GARDERE: Well yes. A prison cell would be a little bit smaller, but you have to think about Assange. What friends and foes alike say, this is a person who was very much a narcissist. You talked earlier about, you know, this whole world that he once had.
VAUSE: Right.
GARDERE: And now he has this little small world. So this is for him as small as a prison cell. If
VAUSE: Right. Right.
And what's interesting is that if you look at the toll it has taken because you know, if you look at Julian Assange back in 2012 --
GARDERE: Yes.
[01:35:00] VAUSE: -- and if you look at him when he came out of the embassy, which is the photograph here on the right, I mean --
GARDERE: Yes.
VAUSE: -- this is a seven-year time period. It looks like he's aged 20 years. So physically, what has happened to him? GARDERE: Well, we have to look at that he probably had physical
issues to begin with -- lack of vitamin D, certainly, you could see under his eyes, the muscles are starting to collapse. He's gaunt now and we see that the color has changed even in his skin.
So this is a person who was ill physically, dental issues, but we talk about unhealthy body now unhealthy mind, and putting those two things together was a real issue.
VAUSE: And just from the surgical (ph) point of view two doctors examined Assange last year and they told the "Guardian" newspaper that at that time he was close to death.
They said, "It is our professional opinion that his continued confinement is dangerous physically and mentally to him and a clear infringement of his human right to health care." And that was a year ago. So would he have deteriorated markedly since then?
GARDERE: Absolutely. And it seems that he wasn't particularly looking to get some sort of medical or psychological help, so it has been reported that there was depression, that there was anxiety. And certainly we're starting to see even some paranoia. The way that he was carried out, the way that he was screaming looked like someone who is very much mentally unstable, breaking down.
VAUSE: Let's quickly get back to the room, this office turned bedroom that he was living in. Because again -- it was a small room in a small building --
GARDERE: Yes.
VAUSE: And no light. You touched on this. Light was a big issue. A lack of sunlight.
GARDERE: Right.
VAUSE: There was only one window in the embassy, and it was not in this room, and it did not let all the sunlight in.
CNN's Atika Shubert has more on that. Listen to part of her report.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ATIKA SHUBERT, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: This is a very small embassy. It has a few rooms, only one of them really has a window, the ambassador's office.
So he didn't have any sunlight. He needed a sun lamp to get any kind of natural light.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VAUSE: Using a sun lamp to get natural light? He's certainly pasty anyway. He's not, you know, he's certainly light-skinned.
But I guess how much vitamin D did he need from the sunlight and that kind o stuff. But at the end of the day, you know, this is actually a very serious issue.
GARDERE: Well, when you have a lack of vitamin D, of course, you have physical problems but you also tend to have more depression. And that's why he had that sun light to help him from the sun lamp. But it just wasn't enough. It's artificial.
So if you already have a depression going on, it makes it even worse.
VAUSE: And talking about depression because he did an interview with the "New Yorker Magazine" back in 2017. And he said, "The walls of the embassy are as familiar as the interior of my eyelids." He said, "I see them but I do not see them."
He told "The New Yorker", he suffered depression as well as anxiety and that he often stays awake for 18, 20 or 22 hours at a time until he collapses from exhaustion.
So you know, what bring son this state, you know, being so isolated? Is there a tipping point for him perhaps. And you know, what's the end result.
GARDERE: Well, the big part of it as you talked about, the circadian sleep rhythms have completely been thrown off, staying up all that time, now he doesn't -- he's not able to sleep the way that he should. That breaks him down further physically and psychologically.
What I see may happen is the fact that he may end up going from jail to jail to jail is not going to help his psychological condition.
VAUSE: Right.
GARDERE: He'll get some help from medics and from physicians and so on but the psychological breakdown will continue to be worse given that this is not a person who's open to talking about his secrets, his life to authorities.
VAUSE: Sure.
GARDERE: That's one thing he will not do.
VAUSE: There is also this hostile relationship he has with the embassy staff. I want you to listen to part of the announcement from the president of Ecuador on why Assange was being expelled. Here it is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LENIN MOREN, ECUADORIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): Today, I announced that the discourteous and aggressive behavior of Mr. Julian Assange, the hostile and threatening declarations of its allied organization against Ecuador and especially the transgression of international treaties have led the situation to a point where the asylum of Mr. Assange is unsustainable and no longer viable.
(END VIDEO CLIP) VAUSE: Also last year there was a story in the "Business Times". It had the headline, "Stinkyleaks: Ecuadorian embassy staff complains about Julian Assange's poor hygiene". Quoted one source as saying it seems he doesn't wash properly. A former friend is quoted as saying, "Unless the people around him force him into the shower, he might not change his clothes for days."
Ok. So you got the bad relationship with the staff --
GARDERE: Yes.
VAUSE: You've got what seems to be, you know, fairly undisciplined hygiene habits. How does that make all of this confinement worse?
GARDERE: Well what -- let's look at the speak (ph) that's within the speak from what we've just heard.
They're saying that he's been hostile, that he's uncooperative for the most part. But this is part of a psychiatric disorder, what we're seeing. You just ask yourself -- John. Why would someone bite the hand that feeds you?
VAUSE: Yes.
GARDERE: Right. They gave them shelter. That's what he needed.
[01:39:52] So him allegedly smearing feces on the wall and this being -- just a bad character, breaking things and so on shows that this was a person who was regressing. He just could not deal with the fact that he didn't have his freedom.
And to make it worse, this is a person who had complete access to the universe through the Internet but it tortured him because physically he could not get out and be part of those things.
VAUSE: So close, yet so far, I guess.
GARDERE: Absolutely.
VAUSE: Doctor -- thank you so much. Good to see you. Appreciate you coming in.
GARDERE: It's a pleasure. Thank you.
VAUSE: Thank you.
And we will take a short break here on CNN. There's a lot more news right after this.
You're watching CNN NEWSROOM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VAUSE: Well the U.S. President has hinted he's open to a third summit with the North Korean leader Kim Jong-un but it's up to Mr. Kim. South Korea's president is in Washington trying to get these two sides back to the negotiating table even though their last summit ended in failure.
Will Ripley explains.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WILL RIPLEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: South Korean President Moon Jae-in traveling to the White House facing perhaps his greatest diplomatic challenge today. Kickstarting denuclearization talks between the U.S. and North Korea amid rising tensions and uncertainty.
South Korean government sources tell CNN, Moon is trying to convince President Trump that a small deal with Kim Jong-un may be the only hope of keeping diplomacy alive after Trump walked out of February summit talks in Vietnam. A tough sell for a president determined to strike a big deal.
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I have to see what the deal is. There are various smaller deals that maybe could happen -- things could happen. You can work out step by step -- pieces.
But at this moment we're talking about the big deal. The big deal is we have to get rid of the nuclear weapons.
RIPLEY: President Trump says he is open to a third summit with North Korean leader Kim Jong-un. But he's not willing to budge on lifting sanctions over Pyongyang's nuclear program.
TRUMP: We want sanctions to remain in place and frankly, I have the option of significantly increasing them. I didn't want to do that because of my relationship with Kim Jong-un.
RIPLEY: The North Korean leader is issuing a stark new warning in the state media seeming aimed at the U.S. saying "North Korea needs to deal a telling blow to the hostile forces who go with bloodshot eyes, miscalculating that sanctions can bring his country to its knees."
Those words experts say deliberately leaves the door open for provocative action. Like a satellite launch if Kim doesn't get the sanctions relief he needs. A source tells CNN, Kim is still weighing options that include regaining leverage by raising tensions with the U.S. or going the other way, attempting to resume diplomacy.
[01:45:06] KENNETH CHOI, INTERNATIONAL EDITOR, THE CHOSUN ILBO (ph): Right now, obviously he's trying to earn more time. And if he continues to go down this path then, you know, the people will suffer the more.
People will probably starve, you know, at the end of the year. The food will not be going in -- he's making a grave mistake.
RIPLEY: Kim is addressing a North Korean parliament as his country faces potentially devastating food shortages. Secretary of State Mike Pompeo told the Senate Foreign Relations Committee sanctions are shrinking the North Korean economy. But so far, no progress on getting Kim to give up his nukes. MIKE POMPEO, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: We're working -- we understand
that you need a baseline to begin (INAUDIBLE) by North Korea and we're determined to get there.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Appreciate your pivot to my question --
POMPEO: I have to get back to work -- I've got work to do-- Senator.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I understand that and I'm trying to focus on your North Korea. Do we have international inspectors in North Korea?
POMPEO: We do not.
RIPLEY: The pressure now falls on President Moon, acting as an intermediary trying to keep the U.S. And North Korea engaged. A tough spot for Moon who sources says hasn't even spoken with Kim since Hanoi.
As inter-Korean projects sit idle waiting for a compromise some fear may never come.
Will Ripley CNN.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VAUSE: More pressure on Venezuela's embattled president Nicolas Maduro with the International Monetary Fund holding back $400 million dollars because of this political crisis. We should note though the IMF along with the World Bank does not recognize national assembly leader Juan Guaido as interim president even though more than 50 countries including the U.S. consider him to be Venezuela's only legal and legitimate leader.
The cash crunch has been made a whole lot worse after the U.S. halted all oil imports from Venezuela. Oil is the country's main source of revenue. It's the life blood of the Maduro regime.
The world's biggest proven reserves and all that raises the question how can such oil-rich country be so impoverished?
CNN traveled to Western Venezuela, the heart of oil country, once a thriving region but now rigs have been left in shambles. Here's David McKenzie.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DAVID MCKENZIE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Venezuelan oil workers giving us a rare look inside their crumbling industry. They brought us to the Salinas oil fields. It's risky speaking out they could be fired or detained by Venezuelan intelligence.
But they want the truth to get out. "Populism finished all of this," he says. Do you see this? Nothing works anymore. The government finished us as completely.
They say successive Venezuelan regime use state oil company PDVSA as a slush fund for socialist programs and their own personal gain.
This entire coastline is just covered in oil sludge. The regime blames the collapse of the oil industry on the U.S. but it's been collapsing for years.
Trump administration sanctions could make it worse. The U.S. was PDVSA's biggest customer. In March, the U.S. bought zero barrels of oil, the third time since the 70s.
And the retired oil workers would help build his company -- and say they gave decades of their lives for almost nothing,
Some say they are forced to eat dog food. They say their pensions worth around five dollars a month.
"It's outrageous. Outrageous. Look at us he says. We don't have money for medication, for food. Soon we'll have to bring out dead colleagues to this protest."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Normal? Well normal if you're looking in this country he says.
MCKENZIE: I want America to take out Maduro. To get him out of here. He says, to get this right he says. He's stealing from the people he's taking food from us.
Now, they're taking from themselves. Last week looters ransacked this pharmacy looking for medicine. In nearby Maracaibo (ph) a mob spent two days tearing a hotel apart, they even ripped out the carpets.
The true scale of Venezuela's crisis becomes clear when the sun sets. Business leaders say it's like "The Walking Dead". A zombie economy with 80 percent of businesses closed here.
In this energy-rich region people are left to shelter in their homes in darkness.
David McKenzie, CNN -- Maracaibo, Venezuela.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VAUSE: Coming up here on CNN NEWSROOM.
Israel -- they came oh so close to landing a space craft on the moon. But no prizes (ph) for not getting there. couldn't get in there. So what went wrong?
We'll tell you in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VAUSE: Huge crowds turned out in Los Angeles on Thursday to honor the slain musician Nipsey Hussle, more or less crammed into the streets to say farewell to a man remembered not just for his music but also for his activism.
Former U.S. President Barack Obama sent a condolence letter which was read out by one of Nipsey Hussle's longtime friend.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I've never met Nipsey but I've heard his music through my daughters and after his passing I had the chance to learn more about his transformation and his community work.
White most folks look at the Crenshaw neighborhood where he grew up and only see gangs, bullets and despair, Nipsey saw potential. He saw hope. he saw a community that even through its flaws taught him to always keep going.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VAUSE: And true to his Eritrean heritage his hearse was draped with the Eritrean flag. Nipsey Hussle was murdered almost two weeks ago near a clothing store which he owns. He was 33 years old.
Israel fell just short of joining a very select international club of nations whose spacecraft have made a soft landing on the moon. Hopes for an Israeli lunar probe came to a crashing end though just short of the target.
Details from CNN's Oren Liebermann Lunar.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
OREN LIEBERMANN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Moments before the Israeli space craft called Beresheet was supposed to land on the mon, the team in the control room in Israel lost communications with the craft. At the same time it was experiencing issues with its main engine.
The $100 million privately funded spacecraft was well into its landing sequence traveling more than 2,100 miles an hour about 75 miles from its intendent landing site according to the telemetry data being fed in problems began and escalated quickly.
There was a moment of silence in the control room, then one of those monitoring the landing sequence said there's a suspicion that we didn't land on the moon in the best fashion. We're trying to clarify the matter.
Just a short time later, one of the team leaders said, I'm sorry to say few we didn't make it to the moon in one piece. The Beresheet spacecraft had crashed.
Trying to put a positive spin on the accomplishment the team leader said "We made it all the way to the moon. We're the seventh country to make it all the way to the moon.
Had this been successful, it would have made Israel the fourth country to ever soft land a spacecraft moon, essentially a controlled landing on the lunar surface.
The three other countries: the U.S., the former Soviet Union, and China -- all world powers. Israel would have been by far the smallest country and the smallest program. Some even joked that instead of calling the spacecraft Beresheet which means in Hebrew the beginning of the bible, "In the beginning" this should have been called chutzpah (ph) for Israel believing it had the gall to pull this one off.
In the end, to keep the weight of the craft down, there were very redundancies built in and the landing was always going to be the most difficult part and it was in that landing sequence that Beresheet crashed on the lunar surface.
Oren Liebermann, CNN -- Jerusalem.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VAUSE: Well from cheers to tears, another company though is celebrating a successful space mission.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Five, four, three, two --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[01:54:56] VAUSE: Yes, that will be SpaceX launching its first ever mission grade paid customer (ph) with its Falcon-heavy rocket on Thursday. The U.S. company sending communications satellites into orbit for a Saudi company.
What also made this mission unique is that Falcon's three powerful boosters returned safely to earth. That means that they could be reused so that means that costs are kept lower.
A once-in-a-lifetime photo has gone viral, but don't blink, or you will miss it.
Here's CNN's Jeanne Moos.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JEANNE MOOS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You know how President Trump is always saying --
TRUMP: It's the fake news media right back there.
MOOS: Well now, they've gotten into his head. Literally, the press reflected in his eye tormenting him on the south lawn of the White House.
Are you in there, somewhere?
PABLO MARTINEZ MONSIVAIS, PHOTOGRAPHER, ASSOCIATED PRESS: Probably.
MOOS: Associated Press photographer Pablo Martinez Monsivais was in the middle of the press pack as the President left the White House. He thought he had taken a regular head shot, but later he reviewed his photos more closely. MONSIVAIS: And I looked and I was completely surprised. And I was
like wow.
MOOS: As beautiful as it is terrifying -- marveled BuzzFeed News. Some compared it to the first ever photo of a black hole. Someone even put the reflected image of the press in the black hole.
Of course, reactions to the President's eye are in the eye of the beholder.
"Such a fierce, determined look. That's the eye of a leader."
"Ignore the overgrown eyebrows, the blood shot speck. That's not a hair and his eye, that's the rope line for the press to stay behind."
The President's eye reminded some of "Blade Runner", a futuristic Los Angeles mirrored in an eye.
I've been sort of imagining Trump saying, how, there's something in my eye. It's the enemy of the people.
TRUMP: Fake news, enemy of the people
MOOS: No amount of Visine is going to relieve the President of this constant irritation.
Judging from this photograph, the press is the enemy of the pupil.
Jeanne Moos, CNN -- New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VAUSE: Kind of freaky, a little creepy.
You've been watching CNN NEWSROOM. I'm John Vause.
Please stay with us because one Natalie Allen will take over for me after a very short break. You won't want to miss her.
You're watching CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[02:00:01] NATALIE ALLEN, CNN ANCHOR: A dramatic moment, seven years in the making. Julian Assange is arrested at the Ecuadorian Embassy. He now faces extradition.
