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NEWS STREAM
Multiple Legal Hurdles Await WikiLeaks Founder; The Country's Defense Minister Takes Over From Ousted Sudanese President; Inside Venezuela's Crumbling Oil Industry. Aired: 8-9a ET
Aired April 12, 2019 - 08:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... Assange will now have the opportunity to contest the charge against him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KRISTIE LU STOUT, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST, NEWS STREAM (voice over): Multiple legal hurdles await WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange, including
possible charges that Washington has yet to announce.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No one is about the law.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LU STOUT (voice over): A new struggle day.
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FARAI SEVENZO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: A day after a man who had ruled Sudan was thrown away. The military is still in charge.
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LU STOUT (voice over): The country's Defense Minister takes over from ousted President Omar Al-Bashir.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They don't want any form of military government taking charge of the country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LU STOUT (voice over): And left in darkness.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How can such an oil-rich country be so impoverished?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LU STOUT (voice over): CNN looks inside Venezuela's crumbling oil industry, and how Nicolas Maduro his regime is using it for personal gain?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Indignant. It's outrageous. Outrageous. Look at us.
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LU STOUT (on camera): I'm Kristie Lu Stout in Hong Kong and welcome to NEWS STREAM. For seven years, Julian Assange kept himself within the
confines of the Ecuadorian Embassy in London. But today, he is officially spending his first full day behind bars.
The WikiLeaks founder is facing possible extradition to the U.S. where he would be charged with computer hacking. He was arrested on Thursday and
convicted of skipping bail. Now remember, this all began back in 2012 when Sweden issued an arrest warrant over allegations of sexual assault.
Swedish prosecutor say they could reopen those charges.
Meanwhile, there was growing international controversy over what's happening with concerns everywhere from Ecuador to the United Nations Human
Rights Office. CNN's Isa Soares is outside the Ecuadorian Embassy in London. She joins us now. And Isa, tell us what is happening now and the
next few days to determine whether Julian Assange should be extradited to the U.S.
ISA SOARES, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kristie, after more than 2,400 days or so being confined in small area, Julian Assange is now
in another confined space, this time in a prison.
What we do know is that he will have to wait until his extradition hearing. That will take place on the second of May to find out really his fate, and
that's the date that everyone is looking towards.
What we do know is that authorities -- prosecutors have a period of 65 days to present their case to U.K. authorities, then a judge is going to be
looking at the case and be looking exactly at different aspects of the case. Worth pointing out, this is both political -- it has political
elements, as well as legal elements.
One lawyer I was talking to, an extradition lawyer I was talking yesterday said to me, they'll be looking at whether this is a political act. They'll
be looking if there is reasonable grounds of guilt. All these factors will be thought of and looked at before making a decision.
Of course, if he is then extradited to the U.S., he could face as much of five years in prison and we heard in the last 24 hours from the DOJ
basically saying that more charges are forthcoming.
So this is something that Julian Assange has always worried about. He has always said that the rape charges against him were just a honey trap,
another way of getting him extradited and his lawyer telling CNN yesterday, that's exactly what he said to her. His words to her were, "I told you,"
Kristie.
LU STOUT: And we are, as you said, awaiting news and details of those additional charges to be filed against him in the U.S. A question to use
about Sweden, if Sweden reopens its rape case against Assange, will the U.K. honor that additional extradition request?
SOARES: Well, I think a lot depends on the British justice system and that's an answer for the British justice system, but I don't see how they
could turn a blind eye to that, Kristie. What we do know is that the lawyer represented the alleged victim, both said to CNN that both her and
the victim will be pushing prosecutors to reopen the case.
The reason the case was closed so our viewers get a sense of why was it closed was because really, Julian Assange went to the embassy and holed
himself into the embassy. So they dropped it because there was no way to actually get him across again to Sweden for him to face charges.
What we do know is that if the case can come back, and I think there's a statute of limitations to it in terms of reopening the case, that goes up
to August 2020, which means that legally, if that's the case, then it can be reopened.
The question then looks at will he possibly be extradited? Then that will be another additional charge for Julian Assange. What relates to the case
and specifically, those people wondering where does this go back to? August of 2010, the victim says she met Julian Assange at a WikiLeaks
conference. She says they had unprotected sex after he repeatedly told her -- after she repeatedly told him, I should say, she didn't want to. This
is something that he has denied time and time again, saying that this is basically just a honey trap -- Kristie.
[08:05:10] LU STOUT: Isa Soares reporting live for us from London. Isa, thank you. Now for more on what we should expect, let's bring in Mark
Zaid, a U.S. national security attorney who joins us now from Washington. Mark, thank you for joining us. Let's talk about the legal team of Julian
Assange and what they're trying to do right now. How and can they successfully fight that extradition request from the U.S.?
MARK ZAID, U.S. NATIONAL SECURITY ATTORNEY: Well, he has lawyers, obviously, in Britain, and here also in the United States. And as your
correspondent said, what they'll try and do is invoke the political offense exception to say that this is nothing more than a political vendetta of the
United States.
Biggest problem for them on that is that this crime or you know, the allegation of a crime, which is dealing with this conspiracy to basically
hack into a U.S. government computer is a crime in the United Kingdom as well. It is there -- it may not be identical, but it's basically the same
offense. If someone had tried to break into MI5, MI6 - the Intel Services and Domestic Services in Britain, it would be a crime. So that makes it
more likely if they can meet the British standards for an extradition, although it will take months.
LU STOUT: Got it. But by claiming political offense exception, are you saying it's looking not likely that Assange's legal team could succeed?
ZAID: I doubt based on the evidence that they will be able to succeed, but they may be able to delay it for a significant period of time, so that he
is not on U.S. soil maybe not until the end of this year or maybe even into next year.
LU STOUT: Got it. And in the event that Julian Assange does set foot on U.S. soil, we know that Department of Justice officials, they are expected
to bring on additional charges, what could those additional charges be?
ZAID: Right. So that is a possibility, and they have time now to amend the charges to tell the British court. A lot of times, courts will inquire
as to whether or not there's any possibility of application of the death penalty, because countries will not extradite anyone to the United States
if that's the case. I don't think there's any likelihood that that would be the case.
In Julian Assange's situation, once he was here, you know, we've been waiting a lot obviously, the Mueller report is supposed to come out within
the next few days, and that was a primary investigative angle of Robert Mueller and his team to look into the role, if any that WikiLeaks played
with Russia. And although there has not been an indictment to date, there could very well be some sort of linkage between, let's say, the hacking of
the Democratic National Committee, maybe something to do with Seth Rich who was a murdered DNC staffer and by that I mean, promoting the ridiculous
conspiracy theory that Rich was murdered to cover something up. So there are number of things tied into the Special Counsel that could come up.
LU STOUT: Got it. Mark Zaid, national security attorney joining us live. Thank you for your analysis there.
ZAID: Sure.
LU STOUT: Take care. Now, the fate of Sudan's ousted dictator, Omar Al Bashir is in the hands of the Military Transitional Council that has taken
over the country. It says Sudan will prosecute Al-Bashir, and it won't be handing him over. The International Criminal Court wants him for alleged
war crimes and crimes against humanity.
And a short time ago, the military also announced that power will be handed over to civilians, but the transition could take as long as two years.
Activists have been demanding the downfall of what they call the oppressive regime. These protesters, they demonstrated outside military headquarters.
Wow, they're protesting with violins, with chanting, with music. Despite these largely peaceful demonstrations, 13 more protesters were reportedly
killed on Thursday.
CNN's Farai Sevenzo joins us now live from Nairobi, and Farai, we have seen celebrations on the streets of Sudan. But has that joy been replaced with
concern and fear for what could come next?
SEVENZO: Well, absolutely, Kristie. You know, 24 hours ago, we were telling you that a man who had rules Sudan for three decades is no longer
in charge. And the protest is, of course, when they heard the announcement by Lieutenant General Ibn Auf. Their concern was that they were swapping
one military man for another military man. Let's catch you up for today.
The military did their first press conference since Mr. Omar Al-Bashir left and they basically said as you said in your introduction, that there would
be -- political forces will form a completely civilian government. This came from man called General Omar Zain al-Abideen. And he is -- his title
in the Military Council is Head of the Political Military Committee.
[08:10:10] SEVENZO: So there is so politics in the military according to that title. But what the military seems to be at pace to show is that they
want to listen to the protesters. They went on to say that, "We don't have any ideology. We are the sons of the Armed Forces, and that we don't come
with solution. The solutions should come from the protesters."
At the moment, as we speak to you, that military headquarters, which used to be the whole symbol of Mr. Omar Al-Bashir's power is completely
surrounded by the protesters. They have not moved despite the military declaring yesterday that there will be three months state of emergency and
a month of curfew between the hours of 10 o'clock at night and four o'clock in the morning. Despite this, they haven't moved.
Now this moves on to the Sudanese Professional Association, their umbrella body of political parties and professionals like lawyers, journalists and
doctor who also say, "No, the protest must continue. Because, you know, we haven't got what we want, which is a complete transition to civilian rule."
At the moment, the tensions are still very high. And it's interesting to see what the soldiers, the Military Council will do it despite the fact
that they are trying to be conciliatory to the protesters saying that no, they will go back to the barracks and let this change, even if it's for two
years, they say it could take as little as one month if there is no chaos.
Now, it's anybody's guess where that case is going to come from. But at the moment, Kristie, Sudan remains in a very tense situation. We have
curfews declared, three months state of emergency. The military is still in charge, and we're not quite sure how it would all end up.
LU STOUT: Yes, very tense situation, an uncertain situation as you described the protesters, they are not going anywhere. They want
assurances that there will be a transfer of power to a civilian government or to civilians. Farai Sevenzo, we appreciate the update. Take care.
Now, a Sunni Muslim militant group has claimed responsibility for a deadly blast in southwestern Pakistan. The Baluchistan Home Minister says that it
was a suicide bomb. It killed at least 20 people at an outdoor market. It wounded dozens more.
Our Sophia Saifi joins us now live from Islamabad. And Sophia, a horrific loss of life here. What have you learned about the aftermath of this
brutal attack?
SOPHIA SAIFI, CNN PRODUCER: Well, Kristie, the numbers are high. This is the most deadly attack that's taken place in Pakistan in 2019. The last
deadly attack that took place was the second deadliest attack in Pakistan's history, and that happened in July 2019.
So it's been a while since we've seen such attacks take place in Pakistan. There has been a massive drop in militancy within the country. So this
kind of attack has sent shock waves across the country.
This happened early in the morning, it was at a marketplace and the organization that has claimed responsibility for this attack, the Lashkar-
e-Jhangvi is known for targeting the Hazara Shia community, which has been long persecuted in this part of the country.
There have been many human rights groups, many members of civil society who have spoken out about -- there's some inquiry, some sort of justice being
brought to these victims, to the families of these victims of these attacks, and it is an ongoing crisis in this part of the country with
regards to the Shia Hazara community.
Now we saw the Prime Minister Imran Khan release a statement on Twitter in which he strongly condemned the attack. He had called an inquiry into the
attack. However, there has been a long standing criticism of the government and of security forces with regards to what's happening down
south in Baluchistan with regards to the Hazara community and with minorities across the board here in Pakistan. It's been on the blacklist.
Last winter, the United States State Department put Pakistan on a blacklist with regards to religious freedom violations and they very specifically
said in the statement the State Department sent out by Secretary Pompeo that they are extremely concerned about the state of religious freedom for
non-Muslims, for Shias within Pakistan -- Kristie.
LU STOUT: Sophia, as you reported, it's been a while since we've seen an attack like this. Why has militant violence returned to Pakistan?
SAIFI: Kristie, well, that's a question on everyone's lips right now. We have a new government that came in just last summer. There has been a
reinforced kind of attitude amongst the Security Forces. You know, there have been multiple operations across the country. We've just come off a
conflict with India. So there was this feeling that Pakistan is generally within the country more secure.
However, it is the end of winter. There is usually traditionally a resurgence of militant activity after winter ends. So there is that
situation that is taking place. Hopefully, this is just a one-off case. But however, with regards to these kind of organizations and these kind of
outfits still thriving within Pakistan, it remains to be seen how deadly the coming summer is going to be.
[08:15:09] LU STOUT: Yes, tragic scenes there in Quetta. Sophia Saifi reporting live from Islamabad. Sophia, thank you. Now, you're watching
NEWS STREAM and they keep it here because still to come, it's back to the drawing board. The U.S. and South Korean leaders are trying to figure out
how to open up nuclear peace talks with North Korea again. Plus, abundant in oil, but still starved of basics. Venezuela's oil industry goes into a
tailspin and pulls the nation with it.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LU STOUT: All right, coming to you live from Hong Kong on a Friday night, welcome back, this is NEWS STREAM. Now, U.S. President Donald Trump says
he is open to the idea of a potential third Summit with North Korea leader Kim Jong-un. He the comments when the South Korean President Moon Jae-in
visited the White House for talks on Thursday.
But as Paula Hancocks reports, when important issue hasn't changed, U.S. sanctions.
PAULA HANCOCKS, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kristie, there was a definite positive spin that was put on this meeting between President
Trump and President Moon Jae-in of South Korea. The two leaders said that there could be a third Summit between Kim Jong-un and President Trump on
the cards. Mr. Trump also suggesting that there could be a three-way meeting between North Korea, South Korea and the United States.
Now both leaders did agree that the top-down approach when it came to denuclearization was the right approach, that the leaders should push the
agenda and then the working level talk should try and catch up afterwards, even though after the Hanoi Summit when they came away without any
agreement. There were critics saying that not enough preparation had been done and not enough working level talks had been held before that Summit.
Now, sanctions were also mentioned. We did hear from Kim Jong-un, the North Korean leader this week saying that there will be a telling blow to
hostile forces who believe that sanctions can bring his country to its knees. President Trump did mention the sanctions in that meeting and what
he said is something North Korea will not want to hear.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We want sanctions to remain in place. And frankly, I had the option of significantly increasing
them. I didn't want to do that because of my relationship with Kim Jong- un. I did not want to do that. I didn't think it was necessary.
As you know, couple of weeks ago, I held it back. But I think that sanctions are right now at a level that's a fair level, and I really
believe something very significant is going to happen. We could always increase them, but I didn't want to do that at this time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HANCOCKS: Now, Pyongyang has been pushing for some of these sanctions to be lifted. They certainly favor a step-by-step process. We did see some
wiggle room from the U.S. President during this meeting suggesting that there could be potentially a step-by-step process. But what he would
rather is the big deal. This is what President Trump is going for, the big deal -- complete denuclearization.
[08:20:10] HANCOCKS: Which is not what North Korea wants, and it's also not what South Korea favors. They would like potentially a step-by-step
process. What they want more than this big deal is to make sure that the momentum keeps going. President Moon has staked a lot of is credibility on
these talks working and he has also said according to those in the Blue House that as soon as he gets back to Seoul, he will try and get in touch
with North Korea. He will try and setup another Summit with Kim Jong-un. Now, at least some talks to get the ball rolling again -- Kristie.
LU STOUT: Paula, thank you. Now, staying with the U.S., we are learning that the Trump administration wanted to release migrants detained at the
U.S.-Mexico border into so-called sanctuary cities. A CNN source says his aim was to get back at Democrats who oppose his border wall.
Sanctuary cities have more relaxed local immigration rules to protect undocumented migrants from deportation by Federal authorities. The cities
are marked read on this map. They include places like New York City, Chicago, and Los Angeles. Sanctuary regions are not just limited to
cities, they can be entire states like the markers that you see in green. I'll bring it up for you.
Now before President Trump forced her to resign last weekend, he urged then Homeland Security Secretary Kirstjen Nielsen to release detained migrants
to these areas, but she resisted. Boris Sanchez has more.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): President Trump is no fan of sanctuary cities.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: My administration is launching a nationwide crackdown on sanctuary cities.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ (voice over): And that's exactly where he wanted to send migrants detained at the southern border. A source tells CNN the White House
pressured Homeland Security officials to release detained migrants into so- called sanctuary cities that limit cooperation with Federal law enforcement to protect most immigrants from deportation.
The President himself pushed former DHS Secretary Kirstjen Nielsen to follow through on his plan, according to a source. Why? In part to
retaliate against Democrats who opposed his border wall.
But Nielsen resisted, and the DHS legal team eventually produced analysis that killed the plan. "The Washington Post" reports House Speaker Nancy
Pelosi's district in San Francisco was among those targeted. Pelosi firing back saying, quote, "Using human beings, including little children, as
pawns in their warped game to perpetuate fear and demonize immigrants is despicable."
Meanwhile, President Trump embracing controversial comments from his Attorney General, William Barr.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WILLIAM BARR, U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: I think spying did occur, yes. I think spying did occur.
TRUMP: I think what he said was absolutely true. There was absolutely spying into my campaign. I'll go a step further. In my opinion, it was
illegal spying, unprecedented spying.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ (voice over): A counterintelligence investigation into a Trump campaign staffer was launched legally through a warrant approved by a
foreign intelligence surveillance court.
Now, as Washington braces for Barr to release his redacted version of the Mueller report, outgoing Deputy Rod Rosenstein is defending Barr's four-
page summary of the nearly 400-page report.
Rosenstein telling "The Wall Street Journal," quote, "He's being as forthcoming as he can, and so this notion that he's trying to mislead
people, I think is just completely bizarre."
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SANCHEZ (on camera): According to reporting in "The Washington Post" and "The New York Times" that sanctuary cities idea was first brought up in an
e-mail from a White House policy adviser to DHS lawyers back in November around the time of the midterm elections. The idea was then revisited this
February before ultimately being abandoned -- Kristie.
LU STOUT: Boris Sanchez there. Now, the IMF and the World Bank say that they are ready to help tackle Venezuela's massive humanitarian crisis. But
not until they know who to call President. The two institutions say it will be up to their members and shareholders to decide.
This spring meetings are taking place this week in Washington. They will attempt to make a choice between President of the Assembly, Juan Guaido and
the current embattled head of state, Nicolas Maduro. More than 50 countries including the U.S. have recognized Guaido as the President of
Venezuela.
Venezuela is in crisis even though it is lush in oil, but it's once massive oil industry is crumbling. CNN traveled to Western Venezuela to visit the
heart of oil country where the once thriving rigs are now in shambles. David McKenzie reports.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID MCKENZIE, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Venezuelan oil workers giving us a rare look inside their crumbling industry. They
brought us to La Salina's oil fields. It's risky speaking out, they could be fired or detained by Venezuelan intelligence, but they want the truth to
get out.
"Populism finished all of this," he says.
[08:25:07] MCKENZIE (voice over): "Do you see this? Nothing works anymore. The government finished us completely." They say successive
Venezuelan regimes use state oil company, PDVSA, as a slush fund for socialist programs and their own personal gain.
MCKENZIE (on camera): This entire coastline is just covered in oil sludge. The regime blames the collapse of the oil industry on the U.S., but it's
been collapsing for years.
MCKENZIE (voice over): Trump administration sanctions could make it worse. The U.S. was PDVSA's biggest customer. In March, the U.S. bought zero
barrels of oil. The first time since the 70s.
And the retired oil workers who helped build this company say they gave decades of their lives for almost nothing. Some say they're forced to eat
dog food. They say their pensions worth around $5.00 a month. "It's outrageous, outrageous. Look at us," he says. "We don't have money for
medication, for food. Soon, we'll have to bring our dead colleagues to this protest." "Normal? Well, normal if you're living in this country,"
he says.
"I want America to take out Maduro, to get him out of here," he says. "He's stealing from the people. He's taking food from us." Now, they're
taking for themselves.
Last week, looters ransacked this pharmacy looking for medicine. In nearby Maracaibo, a mob spent two days tearing a hotel apart, they even ripped out
the carpets. The true scale of Venezuela's crisis becomes clear when the sun sets. Business leaders say it's like "The Walking Dead." A zombie
economy with 80 percent of businesses closed here in this energy-rich region, people are left to shelter in their homes in darkness.
David McKenzie, CNN, Maracaibo, Venezuela.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
LU STOUT: You're watching NEWS STREAM and still ahead, he is changing his tune. President Donald Trump has gone from loving WikiLeaks to saying he
doesn't even know it. What is going on? We're going to take a look, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LU STOUT: I'm Kristie Lu Stout in Hong Kong, you're watching NEWS STREAM and these are your world headlines. A one day after Sudan's President was
ousted in a military coup, activists are demanding that power be handed over to a civilian government. The Military Council now leading the
country says a transitional period before elections won't exceed two years.
[08:30:10] LU STOUT: And could be shorter if there is quote, "no chaos." It also says ousted President Omar Al-Bashir will be prosecuted in Sudan.
A Sunni Muslim militant group is claiming responsibility for a bomb blast at an outdoor market in Quetta, Pakistan. The Provincial Home Minister
says a suicide bomber killed at least 20 people and wounded dozens more. The militant group says it was targeting a minority, Shia Muslim sect.
Swedish prosecutors say that they could reopen charges against Julian Assange following his arrest in London. Assange had been holed up in the
Ecuadorian Embassy there since 2012 to avoid facing charges of sexual assault in Sweden. He is due back in court on May the 2nd for a hearing on
an extradition request from the U.S.
You might be wondering what President Trump's response to Assange's arrest has been. After all, back on the campaign trail. Mr. Trump gave this
glowing endorsement of the company that Julian Assange founded.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: WikiLeaks. I love WikiLeaks. This WikiLeaks stuff is unbelievable. It tells you the inner heart. You've got to read.
It's been amazing what's coming out on WikiLeaks.
This WikiLeaks is fascinating.
This WikiLeaks is like a treasure trove.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LU STOUT: Nice montage there. Now come Thursday, however, his tone, totally different. In fact, what he didn't say was more remarkable.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I know nothing about WikiLeaks. It's not my thing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LU STOUT: All right. We've got to analyze this with our CNN senior political analyst, John Avlon who joins us live from New York. John, good
to see you.
JOHN AVLON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Good to see you.
LU STOUT: We replayed the clips. You know what Donald Trump said in 2016 during the campaign. He loved WikiLeaks. And then now he says he doesn't
even know it. What's going on?
AVLON: That montage undersells the amount he cited WikiLeaks. In fact, in the last month of the campaign, he gave a shout out to WikiLeaks at least
124 times on the campaign trail. Think about how often you mentioned something 124 times in a month, you're probably a little bit obsessed and
quite familiar.
So the President's denial yesterday, I don't think I had to do with the specifics of the indictment. But it's again, one of these, you know, "Hear
No Evil, Say No Evil," but there's an utter disconnect, and it's almost like the President doesn't fully appreciate that we've got the video tape.
LU STOUT: Yes, it is a hard reversal. So if Trump continues this tack and to keep his distance from Julian Assange, will Trump allow the Department
of Justice to proceed with its case against Assange and even add more charges against him?
AVLON: Well, the second part is the key question because this specific indictment that was unsealed yesterday, that is at stake with a potential
extradition dates to 2010 and it's a very narrow -- and it's important for people to appreciate this, because freedom of speech is fundamental in the
First Amendment the United States, but it's a very narrow charge that says that Assange helped hack a computer, gave me a password in effect to then
Bradley Manning know Chelsea Manning to get information.
So that crosses a line. It's not simply about accepting information. It's actively -- you know, it's the computer equivalent of theft. And that's
the statute. So this is not about free speech. It's not about publishing, per se. It's also not about the 2016 election and doesn't get into
questions about the ethics or legality of publishing information stolen in a domestic election by a hostile foreign power. This is narrow.
And that's what the administration is presumably going to proceed with, because the DOJ has executed on it. All those other questions, whether
we're going to get information about 2016. That's a big TBD. But I can't imagine Donald Trump's cheerleading for it.
LU STOUT: Yes, it's a big TBD, but one has to wonder if that discussion is taking place that in the event, if and when Assange is on U.S. soil, that
he can somehow offer more information about the Russia investigation, and if that was to take place, who would he give that information to now that
the Mueller probe is over?
AVLON: There are at least 17 other ongoing investigations into Donald Trump, his campaign, and his businesses. There are no shortage of places
that that information can go. There's some questions about whether the Justice Department under Attorney General Barr, how it would proceed. But
I mean, there are plenty of other active investigations against Donald Trump over and above the Mueller report. And I think the details we're
going to see next week in the Mueller report are themselves going to be fascinating, even if they don't change the top line conclusions.
But the question is, you know, will Assange change his tune so to speak? How will Donald Trump deal with that if it further details Russian efforts
to influence the election on his behalf as we know occurred and the role that WikiLeaks played in that? But we're getting several stages down the
conjectural trail.
I don't think Donald Trump was doing jumping jacks yesterday period, but -- and especially with regard to the seizure of Julian Assange, but this is
about a narrow case involving a 2010 allegation.
[08:35:10] AVLON: Not the 2016 election.
LU STOUT: Yes, as it stands right now, it's about computer hacking, not about espionage, as it stands right now. John Avlon, always a pleasure
talking to you. Thank you so much. Glad you liked the montage. We're sorry that we couldn't air it in full, but you know, we've only a 45-minute
show.
AVLON: Who doesn't love a good montage?
LU STOUT: John, take care.
AVLON: Thank you.
LU STOUT: You're watching NEWS STREAM. Keep it here because still ahead right here on the program, the words come up, like reckless, slippery slope
and very risky. Just some of the words that are being used to describe this science experiment in China. This saw this species of Monkey being
implanted with human genes implanted into their brains. We're going to speak to a neuroscientist who is slamming this experiment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LU STOUT: Now, it's an experiment that's being compared to the "Planet of the Apes," and it has the scientific community divided. A Chinese
researcher is sparking backlash after implanting human genes into the brains of monkeys in a quest to shed more light on how human intelligence
has evolved. And this is what the researchers found. They found that the modified monkeys did better on a memory test involving colors and block
pictures and their brains also took longer to develop as those of human children do. No difference in brain size was found. But the study is also
being slammed by a number of Western scientists calling it reckless and very risky.
Let's now bring in Kevin Mitchell who joins us via Skype from Ireland. He is a professor of Genetics and Neuroscience at Trinity College, Dublin.
Kevin, thank you for joining us. As you know the story very well, this report that's out there, Chinese researchers say that they have implanted
human genes into the brains of monkeys. And I know you've had a pretty strong reaction to this.
KEVIN MITCHELL, PROFESSOR, GENETICS AND NEUROSCIENCE, TRINITY COLLEGE, DUBLIN (via Skype): Yes, I think it's both naive -- biologically speaking
-- and I think unethical, and the reason it's naive is that the gene that they're interested in is a gene called microcephalin and it's called that
because when you mutate it in humans -- sorry, when it is mutated, it causes a condition called microcephaly where people have a smaller brain.
And over evolution, you can see there are some changes to that gene in humans that people think might be part of what contributes to humans having
a big brain. Now, the idea of the experiment is if you put that human version into a monkey, maybe it will have a big brain. But I call that
naive, because really, we know there are thousands of genes that have changed over the course of human evolution. It doesn't just happen with
one gene changing all of a sudden.
So the idea that just putting in that one gene could have this kind of a change is really a bit simplistic.
LU STOUT: Got it. You're slamming the science. You're calling it simplistic and naive. What about the monkeys that were experimented upon
here, you know, that that have these human brain genes implanted into their brains? You know, could this experiment lead to even more extreme
modifications for them?
MITCHELL: It could. I mean, what they actually find is some changes. So part of the problem with the experiment is they don't really have a very
clear hypothesis. It wasn't obvious what they were looking for. They were looking for some kind of a change. They thought maybe the brain would be
bigger, and maybe the animals would be smarter.
So when they look at the brains, they do see some changes. It's a little hard to interpret them after the fact because there is a small number of
animals, and there's just really a lot going on. It's hard to know exactly what that means.
[08:40:08] MITCHELL: The behavioral results that they -- sorry, go ahead.
LU STOUT: Yes, go ahead with the behavioral results.
MITCHELL: Yes, the behavioral results are to me very unconvincing. It's a very small number of animals that they compare, four animals in each group.
And behavioral data are notoriously variable anyway. So it's really hard to conclude anything from the small differences that they see that these
animals really had any change in their cognition.
LU STOUT: Oh you call the results not convincing. The hypothesis, flawed. The science simplistic. CNN did reach out to the Chinese scientists behind
this. They defended their research. A geneticist, Bing Su, he told CNN that in the long run, such basic research will also provide information for
the analysis of the cause and treatment of human brain diseases like autism, caused by abnormal brain development. So Kevin for the sake of
debate, you know, for the greater good, do these researchers have a point?
MITCHELL: I think they have a point, but it's a very different thing if you are, say making an animal model of a mutation that you know causes a
human disease and you want to have a model that you can study experimentally, and that's really important. And there are models like
that for autism and Parkinson's disease and so on, in monkeys and some of the bit created by these same researchers.
This experiment is different from that. I think, at an ethical level, you have to ask yourself, if you're working with primates or any animals.
First of all, what is it that you want to know? Have you clearly defined your question? Secondly, is that question actually worth answering? Is it
important enough to know the answer to that to justify working on the animals? And then thirdly, will the experiment actually answer the
question? And that's the problem that in this case, none of those three questions were answered.
So it really makes it an unethical experiment to do in my view and in the view of many other people, because it was never going to answer the
question. The question wasn't clear in the first place and it wasn't obvious that it was worth answering.
LU STOUT: Yes, you just laid out a number of reasons why this experiment is so flawed. Kevin Mitchell, we thank you so much for joining us, sir.
Take care.
MITCHELL: Thank you.
LU STOUT: Now if you haven't heard of BTS, come on people, it's time to get with it. The Korean boy band is and has been taking over the world.
(MUSIC VIDEO PLAYS)
LU STOUT: Now, their new album is called "Map of the Soul Persona." It is out today. It is expected to go straight to top of the charts and they are
a K-pop sensation. If you're in the U.S. this weekend, make sure you can catch them on "Saturday Night Live."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BTS, K-POP GROUP: So we are, BTS, and we're the musical guests on "SNL" this weekend.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LU STOUT: They're so cute. And that is NEWS STREAM. I am Kristie Lu Stout. Don't go anywhere. "World Sport" with Christina Macfarlane is
next.
[SPORTS]
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