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Trump's Legal Team Fights Probes; White House Downplays Mueller Report; Buttigieg's Message for Democrats; U.S. Deports Husband of Soldier Killed in Afghanistan; Man Unknowingly Infects 38 People with Measles in Michigan. Aired 9:30-10a ET

Aired April 16, 2019 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[09:30:00] KARA SCANNELL, CNN REPORTER: That's right. So the House Intelligence and the House Financial Services Committee has subpoenaed Deutsche Bank looking for -- asking them for any documents relating to loans that they have given to Donald Trump and the Trump Organization. Now, Deutsche Bank is one of the only big banks that has lent to the Trump Organization in the last decade. They have over $300 million in loans extended.

And, of course, Michael Cohen raised the potential issue there of whether Donald Trump and the Trump Organization had inflated their assets when seeking loans from the Trump -- from Donald -- from, excuse me, from Deutsche Bank. So that's an area of inquiry there.

And also on the House Financial Services Committee, they have asked JPMorgan Chase and Citi Group for information relating to a list of people that could be suspected money launderers to see if the bank has conducted any business with them. The issue there for the Financial Services Committee is they're looking to see is whether any -- whether the U.S. has been used for any elicit money laundering. That's an area that that committee has been very interested in and especially Deutsche Bank itself has been subject to numerous investigations involving money laundering. So we have both committees there working jointly together and digging into this issue of both foreign influence in the election and suspected money laundering across a number of U.S. banks and Deutsche Bank.

Ana.

ANA CABRERA, CNN ANCHOR: Kara, what arguments are President Trump's lawyers making in this case to keep the taxes secret?

SCANNELL: Well, so Trump's lawyers have written now twice to the IRS, a part of the Treasury Department, saying that by handing over Donald Trump's taxes, it would be unconstitutional. They're also saying it could potentially -- you know, they don't have a legitimate reason to ask for it, that there's not a good, congressional oversight or a legislative interest in having Donald Trump's tax returns. They're saying that the committee is just merely seeking to do this as a political matter because it has been customary for presidents to supply their tax returns to the public and Donald Trump, of course, has not done that. So they're pushing back hard, urging the IRS to not comply with this request. So it seems very likely, Ana, that we're going to end up in court here.

CABRERA: All right, Kara Scannell, thank you.

Joining us now to discuss all of this, CNN legal analyst and former federal prosecutor Shan Wu and CNN political analyst Karoun Demirjian, congressional reporter at "The Washington Post."

Let's start with the Mueller report since that's right upon us now. White House officials say they don't think the Mueller report will change public opinion much because the main conclusions of Barr and Mueller -- well, Barr's conclusions of the Mueller report are already known.

Shan, do you think this is going to be the beginning of a much larger fight?

SHAN WU, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I do think so, Ana. I think it will be the start -- the opening salvo in a much larger fight between Congress and the Justice Department that will likely end up in the courts. I mean I think we should all get ready to be quite disappointed in what we're going to see in the -- what I'm calling now the Barr report because the redactions are going to be so enormous they're just going to swallow the entire report. I mean just the 6-E (ph), the grand jury secrecy alone, if it's read very broadly, which I'm sure Barr will do, can easily redact the majority of the reports so it will end up looking more like that photograph of a black hole than an easily readable report.

The key language there is, quote, matters arising before the grand jury. So if you read that very broadly, it's really, you know, the exception that swallows the whole rule, Ana.

CABRERA: Although Barr, in his hearing, did say it's going to be much more than a gist. That the public and these congressional members will be able to read and to see.

What could we learn when this report is released, Shan, given that four pages in that summary we got from Barr is so little compared to 400? Certainly with redactions we're going to learn more than what we saw in four pages.

WU: I think what we can expect to learn is some of the details as to why Mueller could not exonerate the president. I think that will be probably, you know, very negative for the president.

I think what we will not learn on that obstruction issue, which is of such great interest, is what was Barr's reasoning in reaching out to decide it, with one exception, it would be great if it was clear in the report why Barr did that. For example, if Mueller actually said I want the attorney general to decide this case or set other reasons why he couldn't decide it, that would be really enlightening. But in terms of details, I think we'll see a lot of negative details on obstruction in particular, as well as on the so-called collusion.

CABRERA: What do you think, Karoun, what are you hoping to learn? KAROUN DEMIRJIAN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, I think that the big question, as Shan was just referring to, is the obstruction question given that Mueller was very clear that he was not exonerating the president on that count, even though, of course, President Trump has taken to Twitter and to claim his complete and total exoneration, as we've seen.

I think the details there are going to be interesting. I think just the -- in general, it's going to be interesting to see how much focus Mueller actually had on the president himself and the people that were surrounding him versus just generally on the question of Russian interference because, of course, his probe was looking at many, many different figures from across the board. So how much attention and how much -- how deeply he dug into the president's circle and how heavily featured that is in the report will be really interesting just for setting the tone of where we go from here, if Congress is actually able to look at the question of Russian interference apart from the political questions or if this fuels the ongoing investigations already on The Hill.

[09:35:22] But, frankly, the most fascinating political fire fight is going to be over the redactions. I think that people on The Hill are expecting that they actually might see more substance from the report than Barr was initially hinting that he would give, and yet they're pretty sure that it's not going to be satisfactory. So you've seen the Judiciary Committee warn that they're going to give a subpoena. You've seen the House Intelligence Committee say, we have a right to see a lot of this information anyway because we -- you are obligated under law to share intelligence and counterintelligence information with us and this started out as that sort of investigation.

So the -- what the Democrats choose to fight for after what we see is possibly going to be even more interesting than what is initially in the initial gloss of the report that's put out on Thursday.

CABRERA: Shan, this other development, Deutsche Bank, JPMorgan, an accounting firm all getting subpoenas now for Trump financial info from House Democrats. Will they get this info?

WU: I think they will. It's important to remember that one does not have any kind of privilege, whether your banker or your accountant, unlike your lawyers. So I don't think they'll have much room to resist those subpoenas. And certainly, in light of what we've heard publicly about some of the concerns with inflating and deflating, that could lead to potential issues of bank fraud going on there. And certainly from a political standpoint, I think, again, it could be very damaging for the president.

CABRERA: Shan Wu and Karoun Demirjian, good info. Thank you both.

From small city mayor to the very big national stage, but Pete Buttigieg says he has a long way to go when it comes to reaching all voters. His plan, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [09:41:16] CABRERA: This morning, rising presidential hopeful, Mayor Pete Buttigieg, has a pointed message for Democrats when it comes to taking on Trump's campaign rhetoric heading into 2020.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PETE BUTTIGIEG (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: When he says something that isn't true, we have to say so. When he does something wrong, we've got to call it out. But then, we've got to move on very quickly because a really robust message for my party can't be one that revolves around the personality of somebody from the other party.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: Joining us now is Olivia Nuzzi, she's Washington correspondent for "New York Magazine."

Olivia, Buttigieg went on to say that Democrats almost forget that don't vote for the other guy is not the same as having your own message. Do you agree and will his approach to Trump insults work?

OLIVIA NUZZI, WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT, "NEW YORK MAGAZINE": Well, I think he's -- Buttigieg has spoken a lot about basically not allowing Donald Trump to define the conversation. I think he is probably rightfully concerned that any conversation that involving Donald Trump tends to revolve around Donald Trump. He sucks up all of the oxygen in a room. And so Buttigieg has been pretty savvy, I think, in talking about the need to have a conversation going forward into 2020 that is not just all about Donald Trump all the time.

And you notice he doesn't talk about Donald Trump as much as some of the other candidates in the primary field. He's focused a lot of criticism on Mike Pence, who is governor, who was governor of Indiana while Buttigieg was serving as mayor of South Bend. And I think that's kind of a savvy way for him to put himself up against the administration, show why he's different, but not get into a back and forth with Donald Trump, which will quickly devolve, as we know, into name calling or Twitter fighting, as Donald Trump tends to do.

CABRERA: Buttigieg also argued that part of the problem in 2016 for Democrats is that he says voters are less ideological than you'd think. He felt that the 2016 issue was way more about being an insider versus an outsider.

Do you think he's right?

NUZZI: I think there's a lot to say about that and I think, you know, what Buttigieg has argued is that he won re-election in South Bend with 80 percent of the vote. So even though South Bend votes Democratic, he had to have gotten some voters who voted for him and also had voted for Mike Pence. And his argument is that he knows how to talk to those people. I was speaking to David Axelrod, who is a friend of Buttigieg's, and, of course, was a close adviser and staffer for Barack Obama. And he said one of the things that Buttigieg and Barack Obama have in common is something that he also has in common with Carter and with Bill Clinton is that he's very good about talking about faith. And that's something that not -- that the right has really had a monopoly on and that might make a big difference with getting some voters who maybe voted for Donald Trump, maybe sat out 2016 this time around.

CABRERA: And yet he is very different than Barack Obama in the sense of his ability to maybe attract diversity or have diversity within his circle. He has said he recognizes that he's very intent on fixing it, wants to invite more people in.

How problematic is this for him? Can the South Bend mayor win over African-American voters who make up a key, if not the key voting bloc in the Democratic Party?

NUZZI: I don't know. You know, I've seen a lot of very interesting criticism that I'm trying to listen to and I think everyone in the media ought to try and listen to that says, you know, everyone's getting excited about this guy and, you know, basically would we afford the same -- would we talk about a person of color who's running for the nomination the same way? Are we talking about Kamala Harris the same way? Everyone says Pete Buttigieg has a lot of promise and is that kind of by virtue of him being another young white guy with an interesting but pretty establishment resume, you know, Oxford, Harvard, a consultant at McKenzie. And I think it's something we ought to think about.

[09:45:14] But, at the same time, I think Pete Buttigieg, you know, he is different. He is gay. He's openly gay. He came out while in office in -- as the mayor of South Bend. He checks a lot of boxes, I think, that are relevant to this moment. He kind of can be everything to everybody all at once. You know, he's from the heartland, but he has this -- he has appeal in New York. He's young, but he's not -- he's 37, he's not too young.

I think it will be interesting to see how it plays out. But it's very early and I think that's important to remember as we start talking about all the different candidates and what their chances are. We're a very long way away from voting and we haven't gotten to the debates yet and I think, you know, things could change very quickly or it could be like 2016 where, you know, Donald Trump led the polls and nobody wanted to believe it, but he continued to lead the polls the entire time and right through the nominating conventions.

CABRERA: It will be so interesting because, as you point out, people aren't even all -- the field isn't complete. Not everybody's even in the race yet, who may end up entering.

NUZZI: It's expanding. The universe is expanding.

CABRERA: Somebody named Biden is on top of mind there in terms of who may enter.

NUZZI: Of course.

CABRERA: Thank you very much, Olivia. Good to see you.

An Arizona man deported to Mexico after his wife was killed while serving in Afghanistan. His 12-year-old daughter left behind in the U.S. How did this happen? That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:50:58] CABRERA: An Arizona man who lost his wife while she was fighting in Afghanistan is back in the U.S. after being deported by Immigration and Customs Enforcement. ICE took him into custody last week and deported him to Mexico. His 12-year-old daughter, a U.S. Citizen, now without both of her parents, sent to relatives.

Nick Watt joins us now.

Nick, the man came to this country illegally, but he was supposed to be protected from being deported. What happened?

NICK WATT, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right, he came to this country in 2004 illegally. He got married in 2007 to a U.S. citizen. And when she was killed in Afghanistan back in 2010, she was in the military police. Her unit was allegedly attacked, according to military times by insurgents using improvised explosive devices and rocket propelled grenades. She died in 2010. And at that time, her husband, Jose Gonzalez Carranza, was then given what's called parole in place. So that means he can stay in this country without fear of deportation. That's something that's renewed every year.

Now, according to his lawyer, we have not yet heard from ICE. ICE says that they will issue a statement later. So this is according to the man's lawyer. He says that a notice to appear in court was sent to Carranza, but to an old address. So he had no idea that he was supposed to appear in court, so he missed that court date, and so a judge ordered him deported. The first he heard about this apparently was when ICE showed up at his house in Arizona last week.

He was then apparently told that he was going to be transferred to Florence, Arizona, and held while this motion to reopen was being adjudicated. But his lawyer says he was instead taken to Nogales, down on the border, and deported to Mexico. Yesterday, his lawyer says he was allowed back in and is now back in Phoenix. But as I say, we have not yet heard from ICE yet about how or why this happened. The lawyer said that maybe the ICE officers just didn't have the right paperwork or maybe they just didn't follow orders.

But there has already been some political fallout. Ann Kirkpatrick (ph), the congresswoman from Arizona, we just heard from her. And in a statement she says, the story of his arrest is just another example of the president's inhumane immigration policies. The Gonzalez Carranza family has sacrificed so much for our country and they should never have been treated this way.

Ana.

CABRERA: Nick Watt, thank you for that report.

Measles outbreaks in New York and Michigan linked by one man. What we're learning about the man who unwittingly infected nearly 40 people in one suburban Detroit community.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:57:51] CABRERA: Authorities in Michigan now say a measles outbreak in a Detroit suburb is linked to one person from New York. That man drove from New York to southeast Michigan to raise money for a charity, according to "The Washington Post." That charity is based in Brooklyn's ultra-orthodox Jewish community. That's the same community where a public health emergency was declared after more than 300 confirmed cases of measles. Now, this Detroit suburb is dealing with nearly 40 infected people.

CNN's chief medical correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta is joining us now.

According to "The Washington Post," Sanjay, this patient zero visited dozens of locations over the span of about a week. How easily can measles spread?

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, it can spread very easily, Ana. This is one of the most contagious infectious diseases that we know, you know, anywhere on the planet. And I think, you know, a question that comes up over and over again, I think it's important to clarify, is that even before someone develops the characteristic measles rash, for a few days before they develop that rash, they can be spreading the virus. So this is just an important point. You may not know you have measles yet, you may not look like you have measles yet, the doctors may not have even diagnosed it, but you could still be spreading it. And that's part of the concern as well. So it's very contagious and before you know you even have it, you could be spreading it.

CABRERA: You mentioned misdiagnosis. This patient reportedly went to a doctor who diagnosed him with bronchitis. How common is that in this diagnosis?

GUPTA: Well, the first few days -- so when someone starts to develop the first symptoms of measles, before they develop the rash, it can look like a variety of things. It can look like a cold, a bad flu, bronchitis, pneumonia. You could see some of the symptoms that people develop early on, but that bottom line, three to five days after symptoms begin is when that rash -- the very characteristic rash appears.

CABRERA: Dr. Sanjay Gupta, thank you so much.

Be sure to catch Sanjay's series, "Chasing Life." It's Saturday night at 9:00 Eastern right here on CNN.

Thanks for staying with me. I'm Ana Cabrera, in today for Jim and Poppy.

[09:59:56] And the focus in Paris right now, and really around the world, is turning to the cause and the effects of this horrific fire at Notre Dame Cathedral. A fire that was finally extinguished just this morning after burning for nine hours.