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Some Vulnerabilities Detected In Notre Dame's Structure; Redacted Version Of The Mueller Report To Be Released Thursday. Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired April 16, 2019 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


ANA CABRERA, CNN NEWSROOM: This horrific fire at Notre Dame Cathedral, a fire that was finally extinguished just this morning after burning for nine hours and a building that has stood for eight centuries.

[10:00:12]

Authorities say there is no sign for now this fire was anything other than accidental. But they have to move slowly because of potential structural damage that's not easy to see.

Despite their grief today, Paris and the world are giving thanks for what's not been lost. Much of the beloved cathedral's interior is still intact and its most precious relics and artworks saved.

Now, business leaders are pledging hundreds of millions of dollars for reconstruction. CNN's Melissa Bell joins us with the latest.

Tell us, Melissa, about the structural concerns. What's being done about that?

Okay, I learned we don't have Melissa with us just yet. We'll head back to Melissa just as soon as she's able to reestablish connection.

Right now, we do have Max Foster though joining us. What can you tell us, Max, as far as the investigation this morning?

MAX FOSTER, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, we know the fire is out and we know that investigators and engineers are inside the building and they're trying to assess the damage, also a lot of water damage as well they have to look at because of all the hoses that were used last night to put the fire out. They want to know what started the fire as well.

But if you can see behind me, this is the back of the cathedral which was engulfed by flames. You can see a crane on the right. They're literally going around inch by inch to see what sort of damage was done to the building, how much mortar has crumbled between those big blocks and whether or not actually that it's stable.

So they haven't given us an update because they simply don't know yet, Ana. CABRERA: Tell us about how they managed to rescue artworks and artifacts that were inside there. It's amazing they were able to salvage so much.

FOSTER: Yes, some real hero stories coming out from that. I think all the artworks and the key relics, so what is thought to be splinters from the crucifix that Jesus was crucified on, the cross he was crucified on, also the crown of thorns as well, that was in there in a safe. We understand actually that the person who knew where the safe was was not in Paris at the time. They took some time to get hold of him and then they had to scramble around to try to find this safe and get it out, so some extraordinary tales.

Thankfully, those relics, the key ones, we understand, are all safe. But there's all sorts of damage to the roof, of course. That's going to be very expensive. And what you were saying about these donations, utterly extraordinary. If you consider, it was less than 24 hours ago the fire started.

And we just heard from the Bettencourt family, which runs Loreal, a famous French brand, they are donating nearly $230 million to the restoration effort here. That's on top of hundreds of millions of dollars of other donations from the French elites and corporates. So we estimate it's something over $600 million so far could easily hit a billion by the end of the day. Extraordinary numbers.

CABRERA: It's so good to see. In the worst of times, sometimes we see the best of people. Thank you very much, Max Foster, for us in Paris.

I want to get right back to Melissa Bell, who, again, is right there in front of Notre Dame. Melissa, what's happening where you are?

MELISSA BELL, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, we're standing here at the very front of Notre Dame, in front of that iconic facade, so much of which was spared by the overnight fire. And on this side of the cathedral as well, just as Max was saying from his side, you can see the efforts continuing there. The firefighters are still gathered out front here. We've been cordoned off down beyond this part, this is as close as we can get, but you can see them still huddled there in front, those efforts continue.

And just taking you up the structure, the front of that facade, that is, of course, one of the most glorious examples of Gothic architecture in the world, world famous, of course. You can see the statues, that famous rose glass window, which remarkably has remained intact, and thankfully has remained intact. You can see that the firefighters just above it, they are inspecting the structural damage, as Max was telling you, trying to get an idea of precisely how sound the edifice remains, what work will need to be done on it so that it can be restored to its former glory so that it can be reopened and reentered so that that reconstruction can begin.

Now, what we now know is that, apparently, despite a few vulnerabilities that have been identified so far, on the whole, the structure, the edifice, is pretty sound. But it was a close run thing, Ana. If that fire had lasted just a half an hour longer, we're told, then the entire edifice might have been compromised and might have crumbled.

CABRERA: Incredible. That's such good news so much is intact. You had information about how this fire was initially reported. Fill us in. Take us back to the early moments.

[10:05:01]

BELL: That's right. Because of course, in the chaos of all this, when that fire, that smoke began billowing out from the roof and all those images flooded social media because people of God (ph) could see that there was something terribly wrong here. In the immediate chaos, it was unclear whether an evacuation had taken place, how quickly it had taken place, how these things had unfolded.

Now, we have been speaking to the Fire Brigade and they have been telling us, Ana, much more about precisely the chronology of events. It was 6:20 P.M. that the fire alarm first went off inside Notre Dame, leading to an evacuation of everyone who was inside, staff, visitors, anyone inside the building was brought outside, but there was no sign of fire, interestingly. It was only at 6:43 P.M., so more than 20 minutes later, that a second fire alarm went off. At that point, the fire was spotted, the fire brigade came and the fight against the fire was able to begin.

But that gives us an idea of how that evacuation was able to take place and, amazingly, how few casualties there were. We know that there was only one firefighter who was wounded. Otherwise, there was no human catastrophe involved here. And I think that's one of the reasons for which so many people are thankful this morning.

CABRERA: All right, Melissa Bell in Paris, we know you're going to stay on top of the investigation. Any new information you learn, we will, of course, be bringing that to our viewers. So do stay with us.

I'm joined now by CNN Religion Commentator and catholic priest, Father Edward Beck. Father, probably no building outside of St. Peter's Basilica is more iconic of the catholic faith, but it's not just catholics who were grieving yesterday and today at the sight of the flames and now the destruction.

REV. EDWARD BECK, CNN RELIGION COMMENTATOR: No, there's universality on it to this place because I think it lifts one's spirit up no matter what your denomination is. When you thing about this took centuries to build, and then all of the restoration and all of the history that it has endured, and all of the people who have visited there. And, you know, it's not only a tourist attraction. I think of the fact that babies were baptized there, people were married there, people were buried there. And so it's a living faith community as well. It's the mother church.

There are about 100 parishes around Paris, but this is the cathedral. This is the seat of the church in Paris. And with its long history and all of the memories of people who had visited there, it's making an indelible mark on people who have never been and who have really have said to me, I don't know why it's affecting me so much, but it is.

CABRERA: How are you processing this loss?

BECK: Well, I'm trying to look at it in the context of this Holy Week, Ana. As you know, we celebrated Palm Passion Sunday on Sunday, and we read about the crucifixion of Christ, and Christians move through this Holy Week with the mystery of suffering, death and resurrection. And it is just a building. And it's a beautiful building. And I'm sad about it. But the people of God who gather in that building and take bread and wine and Christ becomes present, that's the real message.

And so the Holy Week message for me is, death is not the final word. Destruction is not the final word. We are already hearing about the rebuilding. And so I think it's time when we move through this to focus on the Easter message that new life emerges from this. As you know, on Holy Saturday, fires will be lit in every catholic church around the world on Holy Saturday night, the Easter fire. And that is a symbol of the light of Christ in the darkness. It's a different kind of fire. And so I think this Easter, I would really be focusing on that message.

CABRERA: As we focus on the resurrection and sacrifice, and, really, it's fitting to think about what's next in terms of restoration. By the way, we are looking at some live images right now. I do want to let our viewers now this is, I'm told, the Interior Minister of France there inspecting, getting his first look at what is still inside the cathedral. And we do know not all is lost. The twin bell towers are still standing, the main bell in that south tower is still intact, the crown of thorns, the tunic of St. Louis. How significant is that, Father?

BECK: Well, I think it's amazing when you think about the fact that with so much destruction, those very revered artifacts could have been salvaged. And to think of the firemen too who went in there and risked their lives to save this edifice of beauty, again, I think it's because they're only things, but they represent something.

I think we, as people, need sacred places to lift us up. It's not about the sacred place. It's about what happens there. And so when you look at those flying buttresses of the cathedral, when you hear that magnificent organ, when you hear those bells toll, there's something in us that aspires to more, and that's really what it's about.

[10:10:01]

So the relic, not that important, but what it symbolizes is deeply important.

CABRERA: Quickly, if you will, what do you see as the Vatican's role now moving forward in terms of the restoration process?

BECK: Well, the Pope, I notice, has Tweeted this morning about prayers and concern for Notre Dame Cathedral, and obviously, it's an important church in the catholic church. He's been in touch with the archbishop of Paris. And I don't know about financially. We hear there's many donations already being given to the restoration.

But I think it's going to be an interesting commentary on what the Pope says and what the Vatican says about the rebuilding because the church is really in shatters right now as well. This is a metaphor, I think, for where the catholic church is right now. And so if you can say that out of these ashes something new can rise, I mean, I think that's what the Pope should be focusing on, that, yes, destruction occurs and heartache and suffering occurs, but it's not the final word.

CABRERA: Father Edward Beck, we do know, in fact, that the Pope and French President Emmanuel Macron will be speaking later today and we'll, of course, be looking for that readout. We appreciate you joining us, Father. Thank you.

BECK: Thanks, Ana.

CABRERA: Stay with CNN. We'll continue to bring you the details as we learn them on this fire that burned through the historic Notre Dame Cathedral. CNN is there on the scene live.

Plus, democratic lawmakers target Trump's finance with fresh subpoenas but the White House plans to fight back.

And President Trump's pick to serve on the Federal Reserve once called his positions on immigration, the President's positions on immigration crazy and dangerous? We have the audio. Don't go anywhere.

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[10:15:00]

CABRERA: The Vatican in Rome has offered to lend a hand to rebuilding Notre Dame, saying it has the technical know-how. We also know the pope plans to speak to the French President soon.

Joining us is CNN Vatican Correspondent Delia Gallagher. What is the message from there today, Delia?

DELIA GALLAGHER, CNN VATICAN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Ana, I spoke to the Vatican spokesman a few hours ago. He did confirm that the Pope and President Macron will be speaking today. That is a phone call that's important, obviously, not only as a sign of the Pope's solidarity with the French people, but also because Notre Dame is operated by the catholic church but it's owned by the French state. So, obviously, any reconstruction on the cathedral is going to have to be a collaborative effort between the two. And to that end, we heard this morning from the Vatican's Culture Minister who said that the Vatican would be willing to lend a hand, particularly with their technical expertise, he said.

The Pope also sent a message this morning to the archbishop of Paris, who is the priest who is in charge of the cathedral and he called it an architectural jewel of collective memory. So the Pope, as well as obviously expressing his closeness to the French people, is aware and concerned about the architectural treasure of humanity. We'll have further developments obviously once that phone call happens. Ana?

CABRERA: Okay. Delia Gallagher, thank you for that reporting.

And now, I want to bring in our Jim Bittermann. Jim, you have lived in Paris a long time. I understand you are a parishioner of Notre Dame. How is this hitting you personally?

JIM BITTERMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Ana, I was a parishioner. I moved across the city, so no longer. But in fact, for the first seven years I was here, I was in the Parish of Notre Dame and, in fact, my daughter was baptized in the cathedral. So it does have a kind of meaning for me that's somewhat special and dramatic, I think.

The -- one of the things of Notre Dame, I think, for a lot of people symbolized it was a gathering place. I mean, it was true, there were religious aspects to it. But from a secular standpoint, there were regular organ concerts, for example, on Sunday afternoons with a huge powerful organ of Notre Dame and the wonderful acoustics. There were all kinds of things that took place there that were secular in nature, like, for example, when President Mitterrand passed away, his funeral was held there. And Mitterrand was hardly a believer. But in any case, it was the place for people to gather.

After 9/11, one of the very first gatherings after 9/11 of world leaders was at Notre Dame, and that was at the point at which everybody said, we're all American today. I think today, everybody would say we're all Parisians. Ana?

CABRERA: All right. Jim Bittermann, thank you for that sentiment.

It's a fight over the President's financials. And now, attorneys for President Trump are telling the IRS that the democrats' hunt for his tax returns is, quote, unconstitutional.

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[10:20:00]

CABRERA: It's coming in just two days. This Thursday, Congress and the public will finally see the redacted version of the Mueller report. But that release could launch new political battles. Democrats on the House Judiciary Committee say they will subpoena the Justice Department for the full report without redactions if they do not receive it this week.

Now, White House officials tell CNN they think public opinion is already set after Attorney General Bill Barr's summary. But those officials say they are worried it could give democrats ammunition to use against the President in their next move.

In the battle to obtain President Trump's financial records, congressional democrats have issued subpoenas to Deutsche Bank as well as several other financial institutions tied to the President. Deutsche Bank currently has about $300 million in loans extended to the Trump organization. Let's bring in CNN's Lauren Fox with the latest.

[10:25:02]

Lauren?

LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL REPORTER: Well, we do know that the House Intelligence Committee and the House Financial Services Committee issued subpoenas yesterday to three financial institutions, Citigroup, JP Morgan and Deutsche Bank. As you mentioned, Deutsche Bank being the only major financial institution that has given money to the Trump organization over about the last decade, but this is all an effort by democrats to get information about the President's financial history.

In a statement yesterday, Adam Schiff said, quote, as part of our oversight authority and authorized investigation into allegations of potential foreign influence on the U.S. political process, the House Intelligence Committee today issued subpoenas to multiple financial institutions. And this all comes as democrats issued subpoenas yesterday as well.

The House Oversight Committee Chairman, Elijah Cummings, issued a subpoena to Mazars. That's an accounting firm that put together financial disclosure statements for the President in the past. And, of course, we have that ongoing fight between the House Ways and Means Committee Chairman, Richard Neal, and the Treasury Department to get the President's tax returns. Ana?

CABRERA: And what arguments when it comes to those tax returns are the President's lawyers making to keep them secret?

FOX: Well, yesterday, the President's personal lawyer sent another letter to the Treasury Department basically arguing that Richard Neal does not have the authority to get the President's personal tax information. They say that this is a politicization of the Treasury Department, they that this is not something Richard Neal should be able to do. But, of course, Richard Neal has maintained that he has the authority under 6103, that statute in the IRS code that says that the House Ways and Means Chairman can ask for tax information from any individual and that Treasury has to turn it over. So that's where that fight stands.

Of course, we have been saying all along, Ana, that we expect it to go to court.

CABRERA: Okay. Lauren Fox, you'll keep us posted, we know. Thank you.

Joining us now to talk more about this, CNN Legal Analyst Anne Milgram, a professor at NYU Law School. Let's start with the Mueller report, because now, it's just two days away, about 48 hours or so. You heard the White House message being, essentially, they think the public narrative that was initially put out is probably set in. Again, no collusion, and they're hoping people also aren't looking to learn anything about obstruction. What will you be looking for? ANNE MILGRAM, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: So I'll be looking a lot at the obstruction piece. Barr wrote a four-page summary of a 400-plus page report. So we know that there's a lot missing.

And there were a lot of troubling things in my view about Barr's summary. First, he talked about I have concluded that the President could not be convicted of obstruction. So he essentially made himself not just the prosecutor but also the judge and jury, and set the trial standard, which is beyond a reasonable doubt. So he really pushed as far to the extreme as he could. And that tells me that that report is going to be filled with evidence that the President engaged in conduct that could be considered obstruction of justice.

CABRERA: What about the redactions though? Does this concern you?

MILGRAM: Yes, it concerns me greatly. Barr outlined four areas of redactions, including grand jury material, classified information, things that are part of ongoing investigations. I think it is possible that it's like reading -- you know, it's essentially reading a report that's blacked out on every other page or that huge chunks of the story are missing. That endorse (ph), I think, to the benefit of the administration and the President. But I think it's terrible for the American people. So I hope that they'll provide as much information as they can.

CABRERA: The President is Tweeting just a few minutes ago, in fact, no collusion, no obstruction. That's one of his Tweets. And now, we learn that Rudy Giuliani, his lawyer in all things Russia, is preparing a big rebuttal after this report drops. What do you make of that?

MILGRAM: They've always said that they were going to have a rebuttal. And I think I'm not surprised by that. What I think is wrong is the President's conclusion that there's been a finding of no obstruction of justice. I don't know for sure, but I suspect when we read it, we will find if there's true that there's significant evidence that the President made efforts to obstruction justice, but that Robert Mueller decided that that decision belongs to Congress and not to him because the President couldn't be indicted, then I don't think the President has been exonerated. And, in fact, Barr even said it is not an exoneration of obstruction.

CABRERA: Right. And he even quoted Mueller's report on the no exoneration line.

MILGRAM: Yes, because he knows it will come out. And, ultimately, I think if he went too far, it would no credibility, whatsoever.

CABRERA: Turning to the President's finances, these new subpoenas now, Deutsche Bank, JP Morgan, an accounting firm connected to President Trump and his organization. Will House Democrats get their hands on this info?

MILGRAM: I think, under the law, they will. You know, we never know exactly what a court will do, and I agree that this will go to the court, but there's two points. The first is that Congress, that statute says Congress that the Treasury Department shall provide, which means it's not a question of there are standards, there are things they have to prove. It means when the Chairman asks, the Congress can get access to any person's tax returns.

[10:30:00]

The second part is that the company has to comply with the lawful subpoena or go to court. And at this point, I think it will become a court decision.