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Paris's Notre Dame Cathedral Ravaged by Fire; Pete Buttigieg (D) is Interviewed About His Presidential Run. Aired 7-7:30a ET

Aired April 16, 2019 - 07:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Crucifix is still standing, and it is illuminated amid the destruction. France's president pledging to rebuild Notre Dame, of course a cathedral that has stood at the heart of Paris and, in many ways, is the soul of the City of Light for more than 850 years. Millions have already been pledged to restore it to its full glory.

[07:00:22] JOHN AVLON, CNN ANCHOR: Now, flames erupted late Monday and quickly engulfed the Gothic architectural masterpiece. More than 400 firefighters battled the flames, saving it from collapse.

People watched in horror as the cathedral's iconic spire toppled, falling through the wooden roof. Now, the faithful sang hymns as they watched this powerful symbol of Catholicism and the country of France itself go up in blames.

This morning, the Paris Fire Brigade says the stone construction of the cathedral has been saved, along with many of the church's most hallowed relics.

CNN's Melissa Bell is live outside Notre Dame with the very latest -- Melissa.

MELISSA BELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You know, John, as you were just saying, that is almost what's most remarkable, is how much of this extraordinary edifice still stands this morning. So much of that stonework largely intact.

And this despite a fire that raged, John, for nine hours. Four hundred firefighters it took in the end to extinguish it. And really, they were the heroes of the night. They've been praised this morning here in France, praised also by the French president, who came here last night, and who pointed out that, had it not been for their efforts, so much more would have been lost. Not just the artifacts that were brought out thanks to a human chain formed overnight involving police, men and women, and firefighters, but as I say, also the edifice itself, so much of what makes it one of the world's architectural wonders still remains intact this morning. The flying buttresses, the gargoyles, the statues. And this despite a fire that raged for the best part of the night.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BELL (voice-over): Daybreak in Paris, bringing the first images of the badly-damaged Notre Dame Cathedral after a fire ripped through the beloved Catholic landmark, stunning the city and the world.

CNN obtaining this exclusive look inside the burnt-out cathedral. A fire hose running. Embers still falling from the ceiling. Rubble scattered across the floor and an apparent hole in the roof.

In one picture, candles still burning from where visitors left them before the fire began. This haunting image showing smoke surrounding the altar and its cross illuminated and seemingly intact. Rose of wooden pews and much of the nave appears to have survived.

The image: a stark contrast to the architectural masterpiece that stood just hours before.

Flames first seen leaping from the cathedral's wooden roof just before 7 p.m. local time. Police say the fire began in the attic and spread across the cathedral's wooden roof, known as the forest because of how many trees it took to build it.

The cathedral's rector tells CNN that the entire roof's structure is destroyed.

The inferno filling the city sky with smoke and ash that rained down on thousands of onlookers who'd gathered on the street stunned as the blaze gained strength.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We looked around and looked back, and gasped, and saw this transpiring. We watched as the rest of Paris watched in silent shock, as -- as these flames just grew and spread across the roof.

BELL: Sirens echoing through the silence as the fire engulfed the cathedral's iconic spire. The 300-foot-tall structure eventually collapsing.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We heard the tower full, and it was the worst sound. And people screamed.

BELL: Nearly 400 firefighters battling the blaze, working to save what was left of the iconic structure and the treasured artifacts inside.

Paris's mayor tweeting that many of the priceless pieces, including the Crown of Thorns and the tunic of St. Louis were recovered successfully. Firefighters also managing to save Notre Dame's iconic facade and bell towers.

French President Emmanuel Macron emotional as he visited the historic cathedral.

EMMANUEL MACRON, PRESIDENT OF THE FRENCH REPUBLIC (through translator): So I say this very solemnly to you tonight. We will rebuild this cathedral together. And it is undoubtedly part of the French destiny and a project for the years to come.

BELL: With night falling, the crowd turning their heartache into hymns. Some onlookers mourning. Others on their knees praying, honoring the cathedral, a part of the city's core for close to nine centuries.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AVLON: Joining us now, CNN chief international correspondent Clarissa Ward, and from Paris, Ambroise Laurent, the adjunct secretary general of the Conference of Bishops in France. Thank you both very much for joining us.

Ambroise, let's start with you. What's the feeling amid the community of faith in Paris right now?

AMBROISE LAURENT, ADJUNCT SECRETARY GENERAL, CONFERENCE OF BISHOPS: Well, it's a feeling of deep sorrow. We can't believe what we are seeing this morning. And personally, I have a personal memory of my grandfather's funeral inside this cathedral. So it's both moving and very difficult to bear.

[07:05:07] HARLOW: You know, Ambroise, one of our colleagues in Paris said the feeling this morning is very much a feeling of a revival and resilience, and the strength of a city that really, in many ways, has been fractured in recent months. Is that -- is that the sense you get?

LAURENT: Yes. But I think we can -- we have to pause a bit. Because we have to understand what happened for us. What does it mean to see this cathedral engulf in blazes? And it says something about what is this cathedral. It's not like the Eiffel Tower. There is something inside, something above.

And for those two reasons, obviously, we will rebuild, but first, we have to pause a bit and to understand why we are so universally moved by what happened yesterday.

HARLOW: Yes.

LAURENT: And we do believe as Christians that there is a meaning in that.

AVLON: Clarissa, that pause, I think, the world paused yesterday, because everyone has these emotional, personal feelings about Notre Dame. It symbolizes something so broad to the world.

It reminded me, that steeple falling, that moment, almost of 9/11 here in New York, the horrific moment where you saw the towers collapse. But this is a building that has stood for centuries.

CLARISSA WARD, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: And I think there was a moment of, wait, why are we reacting so strongly here? How is it that this image of this spire collapsing -- you could hear people on the social media videos gasping.

And then you realize, this isn't just a building. This is something much more profound than that. This is a monument to history. This is something, you know -- we may all live for some more decades on this planet, but this is something we pass on to the next generation and the next generation beyond that, to say, "You know what? We did a lot of terrible things in this world, but we also built beautiful things. Beautiful monuments to the divine."

And whether you're a religious person or not, whether you're spiritual or not, when you walk into Notre Dame, when you look at that majestic ceiling, that incredible rose window, you can't help but feel humbled. You can't help but feel that you're in the presence of extraordinary beauty, of something great, of something awesome. And it's that precise sense that I think really united people.

And that's why, when you saw that spire collapse, people had this visceral reaction. People felt shock. People felt grief in a way that you wouldn't necessarily expect about the collapse of a building. This was so much more.

HARLOW: And Clarissa, it brings people together in moments of tragedy, as well. Personal tragedy, within families, but also national tragedy.

You and I were on the ground together after the Bataclan terror attack, and that is where people flocked. I remember being on the phone, on the air live outside of Notre Dame, as we were watching French ministers, et cetera, go inside to gather. And this was irrespective of religion, or identity or politics. This was where you come together in Paris.

WARD: Because this was the building, the edifice, this extraordinary piece of architecture, that for 850 years has survived being ransacked by the Huguenots, has survived being desecrated by the French Revolution, has survived the Napoleonic wars, has survived two world wars and has lived to tell the tale. This is a place that people went to to be inspired, whether they were worshippers, whether they were writers, like Viktor Hugo, or singers like Edith Piaf. They went there to be inspired and to find solace in a sense of community.

AVLON: Clarissa, we're just getting new information out of a press conference right now that all the artworks that were salvaged from the Notre Dame are going to be moved in the Louvre. So they will remain on display at a place where people can pay their respects. And that also, 500 firefighters participated in that.

Ambroise, I'd love to get your take on this new information about the artifacts moving to the Louvre.

LAURENT: Well, the first thing is, luckily, there was no casualty. And that's very important. No casualty except one firefighter which was harmed.

And second, yes, it's good news that all the artifacts, the beautiful artifacts have been preserved.

But on top of that, I think what is moving for us, as well, is that the cross, which is a golden cross at the end of the cathedral, is still there. It still stands, and it stands brightly.

And we are -- as you know, we celebrated on Sunday -- on Sunday, we celebrated Palm Sunday. And so we celebrated the death of Jesus Christ. And this is a very specific, special week for all the Christians. And all the Parisians are gathering this week, normally to the cathedral, three times, for the mass and for two other celebrations before the vigil.

[07:10:03] And what is going to happen is that we will not be able to do that this year, and probably not next year.

So the important thing is that, obviously, all the beauties of this cathedral have been mostly preserved, and that's the good news. But the real good news is that the live -- the living stones which are the, in fact, the people of Paris, the Christians, will still gather in the years to come and in the week to come --

HARLOW: Right.

LAURENT: -- to celebrate resurrection. So we are -- we are in sorrow.

AVLON: Right.

LAURENT: And deep sorrows. But we do think that love and courage will prevail.

HARLOW: And you have beautifully called on all Catholics to become living rocks of the church, really, as this rebuilding takes place.

LAURENT: Yes. Obviously, it's very sad that we won't be able to baptize the catechumens on next Saturday in this -- in this cathedral. Hopefully, we have got other churches, a lot of churches in Paris, that the sense of unity is particular in this cathedral.

It's a cathedral that has seen very, very specific events. For instance, when the U.S. liberated Paris, "Te Deum" was sung in this cathedral. And the Emmanuel Bell tolled. And this is very important, because it has a very profound sound.

And this -- I remember also when President Nixon went for the General de Gaulle's funeral --

HARLOW: Yes.

LAURENT: -- and for the papal visits. There are a lot of events that took place here for the world to watch.

And more recently, the Bataclan terrorist attacks went on, and thereafter, we had a service there with a lot of people from all over the world.

And I don't want to forget that there are 14 million visitors, 14 million visitors a year visiting this cathedral. And those visitors are, as you have said, they are -- they are impressed by the beauty of this building. And hopefully, they will be -- they will be impressed tomorrow by this beauty again.

HARLOW: No doubt. They will be. Our thanks to you, our great thanks to you, Ambroise. We appreciate it. And Clarissa Ward, as always. So coming up, even I couldn't pronounce his name a month ago, and now

he is soaring in the polls. Just being honest. Mayor Pete Buttigieg is with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:16:52] WARD: Pete Buttigieg is the 37-year-old mayor of South Bend, Indiana. He is now No. 3 in the polls in early states of Iowa and New Hampshire. He has made his presidential bid official; he did that on Sunday. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAYOR PETE BUTTIGIEG (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It is time to walk away from the politics of the past and towards something totally different. My name is Pete Buttigieg. They call me Mayor Pete. I'm a proud son of South Bend, Indiana, and I am running for president of the United States.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Joining us now is the Democratic presidential candidate Pete Buttigieg, the mayor of South Bend.

It is nice to have you here in person. Thank you for joining us.

BUTTIGIEG: Thanks for having me in.

HARLOW: So other than making us feel like we haven't accomplished enough in our lives. I'm 37 next week --

BUTTIGIEG: All right.

AVLON: You're a slacker, Poppy.

HARLOW: Clearly.

AVLON: We've been saying it. Happy birthday.

HARLOW: Thank you.

High in the polls. You've raised millions of dollars. And six weeks ago, most of America could not pronounce your name, myself included. I will admit it and send you the clip.

How did this happen?

BUTTIGIEG: Well, you know, the turning point for us was the CNN town hall. But the thing that's most encouraging to me is what I had to say that night wasn't that different from what I've been saying all along.

So the lesson we drew from it is, when people hear our message, when they hear what I have to say about generational change and building a generational alliance to move our country in the future; when they hear the new vocabulary I'm trying to put together about a progressive vision on freedom, democracy, and security, it lands. It resonates, and people respond very powerfully to it.

So, you know, obviously, this is what we were hoping would happen. But it's -- I have to admit --

HARLOW: Can you just be honest, did you think it would?

BUTTIGIEG: Not this quickly.

HARLOW: Right.

BUTTIGIEG: You know, we were kind of patiently building an organization. And suddenly, it popped. And, you know, you only get to kind of arrive on the scene once, and so we've got to make the most. And we have, I think, made the most of that moment to build something lasting.

You know, you want to make sure you're not regarded as just a flash in the pan.

HARLOW: That's true.

BUTTIGIEG: But I think the fact that we've been at this for more than a month, so we've literally outlived the flavor of the month period. Now comes the sometimes unglamorous work of building out those early state organizations, doing the fundraising, doing the grassroots volunteer organizing that will power us all the way through into next year.

AVLON: Well, you certainly seem to have inspired a grassroots mobilization moment. And there is a generational change message that's resonating.

But now, also, comes the time where people press you on specifics.

BUTTIGIEG: Yes.

AVLON: And you've spoken about how values should inform philosophy, and that goes down to policy.

But when you say, for example, it will be a radical change under a Buttigieg presidency, what does that mean? Because a lot of people, I think, have caught onto your message, because it feels reassuringly moderate in some respects.

HARLOW: Interesting.

BUTTIGIEG: Well, first of all, tone really matters, right? So even as we're contemplating serious and sometimes profound structural reforms, we can do it in a way that doesn't make everyone feel like our hair is on fire.

This moment should not be underestimated in terms of its seriousness. I think in many ways, we're still underreacting, but we don't have to react to it in a way that alienates others in a way that makes it feel like there's such screaming that you can't tell what's even going on around us. [07:20:04] HARLOW: That makes you you a clear contrast to the

president. And I'm interested, Mayor, if you make it all the way, how would you run against him? Would you ignore him? Would you give him a nickname? He'll give you one.

BUTTIGIEG: Yes.

HARLOW: I mean, really, how do you use that -- your temperament versus his?

BUTTIGIEG: It's really important -- it's such an important question. I think the way we have to approach is it, on one hand, when he says something that isn't true, we have to say so. When he does something wrong, we've got to call it out.

But then we've got to move on very quickly. Because a really robust message for my party can't be one that revolves around the personality of somebody from the other party. We've got to have a message that will make as much sense in 2040 as it does in 2020. And that means it's not so much about him as it's about you. It's about us.

HARLOW: Do you think Hillary Clinton did that too much?

BUTTIGIEG: You know, I think part of it was the media environment. There are also elements of our strategy, our party's strategy in 2016.

But now, with the benefit of hindsight, I think we should adjust going to the 2020. A lot of it was -- I think a lot of Democrats were so horrified by who the Republicans were nominating, we almost forget that saying, "Don't vote for the other guy, because he's terrible," even if it's convincing, is not the same thing as having a message.

HARLOW: I'm just interested. You're purposely not using his name. You didn't do it on Sunday. Are we going to continue to see that?

BUTTIGIEG: I mean, his name will probably escape my lips every now and then. But the core of this idea is it's not about him. And frankly, I think somebody like him should not have been able to get close. And I think a lot of Republicans would say the same thing.

The conditions that made this presidency possible are a lot bigger than one man. They are a sense of deep disruption in our economy, our society, our politics. And I think part of it is a symptom of the way in which our political system can no longer deliver results that Americans believe in.

Even things we think of as divisive, like immigration, which is divisive, but most Americans actually agree on the outlines of a bipartisan, comprehensive immigration reform. There are so many issues like that, where there's a rough sense among the American people about what to do. And the American political system can't deliver. That leads to crazy outcomes.

AVLON: Would you back, for example, the bipartisan immigration reform that passed from the Senate that Lindsey Graham championed during the Obama years? Is that the kind of a model --

HARLOW: Speaking of a --

AVLON: -- you would back?

BUTTIGIEG: Yes. I think it is the right template. I think now we know that there needs to be more by way of protections for DREAMers in that policy package.

But the basic framework, that we have a pathway to citizenship; that we improve our lawful immigration pathways, like the one that my father came through in the 1970s as an immigrant to become an American; and to make sure that we do what we have to do on border security. That package, the outlines of it are there.

And the fact that the Senate passed it only for it to die in the House, is incredibly frustrating.

AVLON: And you know, as a mayor of a city in the upper Midwest, that's the crucial battleground.

HARLOW: The great Midwest. The great Midwest. I say this as a Minnesotan.

AVLON: That's right. That's right. I'm outnumbered here, although I've got a lot of affection for the Midwest.

You mentioned, you know, the Democrats' strategy not working out in 2016. And I wonder from a macro standpoint, do you believe it's because Hillary Clinton and the Democrats were perceived as being too far left or not far left enough?

BUTTIGIEG: You know, when you think of how many people narrowed down their choices to either Donald Trump or Bernie Sanders at the end, what it tells me is that voters are less ideological than you would think.

I know this just from the math in St. Joe County where I live. There must be a lot of people who voted for Barack Obama and Donald Trump, and Mike Pence and me. Which tells you that a lot of voters -- some voters think ideologically, but some don't.

I think the bigger issue was insider versus outsider.

HARLOW: Yes.

BUTTIGIEG: And we looked like we were the defenders of the system. And he looked like he was promising to blow up the system.

HARLOW: We'll talk more about that and get into your faith a bit in the next segment. Because we saw President Obama get 26 percent of the white evangelical vote in 2008.

But on policy, you know, you have a history also working at McKinsey, arguably the best consulting firm out there. And you said recently, it's important to pay attention to the potential that business has to propel prosperity.

And I'm interested in if you think your fellow Democrats and some of your Democratic contenders and competitors in this race for the White House have vilified big business in a way that is dangerous, and capitalism, when now we know more Democrats view socialism favorably than capitalism.

BUTTIGIEG: Well, I think the reason we're having this argument over socialism and capitalism is that capitalism has let a lot of people down.

I guess what I'm out there to say is that it doesn't have to be so. I believe in democratic capitalism. But the democratic part is extremely important.

We -- I think during this Cold War, there was this assumption that capitalism and democracy were almost the same thing. That if you were for capitalism, you were also for democracy.

Right now, we actually see democracy and capitalism coming into tension. It was very alarming to hear recently that one of the president's economic advisers said that, between capitalism and democracy, he would choose capitalism.

I would say the reverse ought to be true, that at the end of the day, we prioritize democracy. And, you know, having that framework of a rule of law, of fairness, is actually what it takes for markets to work.

[07:25:00] HARLOW: Can I -- can I just follow up on that and just ask what that would look like, because I see it reporting across the Midwest a lot, OK? And I see the disparity, and I see what happened in my home state of Minnesota or Ohio or Pennsylvania. And they don't -- they know that this capitalism isn't working for them.

I'm really interested in specifics on how you would propose fixing it. Do you support Elizabeth Warren, for example, who just proposed last week putting an additional tax on the most profitable businesses in this country? Is that the way to help most Americans? Or is it a Band-Aid?

BUTTIGIEG: I'm open to that. I think the more interesting issue is, should our policies be any different toward the biggest companies than they are toward the smallest ones?

A lot of the issues with big business right now aren't from the business part of big business. They're from the big part. Bigness can lead to concentrations of wealth turning into concentrations of power. And I would say the problem with money in our politics today is that people are able to use wealth to buy power, and then in turn, use that to --

HARLOW: So you'd break them up?

BUTTIGIEG: -- to change the rules.

HARLOW: You'd break them up?

BUTTIGIEG: Sometimes, if there's anti-competitive behavior, then that's why we have anti-monopoly laws in this country, to make sure that things don't get -- but it's not just about saying, if you're this big, we're going to break you.

HARLOW: Right.

BUTTIGIEG: It's also perhaps saying that the bigger you are, the more responsibility you have.

HARLOW: That's interesting.

BUTTIGIEG: What if your responsibilities around anything from reporting on gender pay disparity in the organization, which I think most of us agree is more of a fair thing to do for a larger organization than for a small one, to potentially even wage labor standards.

We're graduated at a progressive level where the bigger you are, the more we expect you to be among the very best in how you treat your workers and how you treat the communities where you operate.

AVLON: I think the folks on small businesses, being the people that need the assistance from government itself, is very differentiated. But of course, we are having a debate about whether some of the big tech monopolies should be broken up, or oligarchies.

Whether some of these major companies that are paying zero in taxes, whether that's right. Are those the kind of actions you would specifically take as president?

BUTTIGIEG: Yes. So when it comes to where companies pay taxes, of course, a lot of that has to do with offshoring. And we already know, in concept, at least, how to tax things more fairly, because we do this all the time among the states. Right?

If you have a company that's based in this state but sells a lot in that state, and they have different tax regimes, there are ways to handle that. Like something called sales apportionment, which we could do on an international basis, too.

The question about the size of the companies, I think, is also really important to look at. And at the same time, it's not the only problem with tech. Yes, there are some concerns with the tech companies and how big they are.

There are also concerns with how they treat our data. And that's a problem, whether a company is big or whether it's small.

HARLOW: Yes.

BUTTIGIEG: Nobody reads the terms and conditions on -- at least I sure don't. And somebody did a study that, if you actually read the little agreements on every app you use, it would take you the better part of a year. HARLOW: I'd like to -- we'd like to spend some time talking about

your faith.

BUTTIGIEG: Sure.

HARLOW: And your marriage, which you said is because of the grace, is the word you used, of a single Supreme Court vote. Your marriage to your husband, which you've also said has brought you closer to God.

BUTTIGIEG: Yes.

HARLOW: How has your faith guided you? How should voters and Americans expect it to guide you in decisions you make as you embark on this journey?

BUTTIGIEG: Well, I think in the presidential process, people need to understand, as for everything that we are, and that includes getting a glimpse into our souls.

Now, I say this with caution, because I also believe strongly in the separation of church and state. I believe that religion is never something to impose on somebody else. And I believe it's important that anybody in politics can equally represent people of any faith or people of no faith.

But I want people to know where I'm coming from. And where I come from is a Christian faith that teaches humility, that teaches love.

The reason that being married to Chasten has made me a better person and made me feel closer to God is that it has been that experience of caring about someone else more than you do for yourself. And -- and humbling yourself and putting yourself in their place.

I think that, look, the scripture that I hear when I go to church is about compassion. It's about decency. It is fundamentally about the love that inspires us and compels us to look after the least among us. Not to glorify those who are already glorified; not to afflict the afflicted and comfort the comfortable. But the reverse.

And that means looking after the poor. It means taking care of prisoners. It means welcoming immigrants. This is what, at least on a certain vision of Christianity that I believe in, this is how salvation works.

AVLON: And you speak about your love, and your marriage, and your relationship in very inclusive, universal terms. It's very at odds with more identity politics vision of politics that seems to be ascendant on the left.

But what I'm interesting to you is, because you message it this way, it becomes inclusive. It emphasizes common ground. What kind of resistance are you finding, if any, on the campaign trail, from more socially conservative constituents or voters out there?

BUTTIGIEG: Well, I think there are some who subscribe to a very different account of what faith means in politics. [07:30:00]