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Redacted Mueller Report to be Released; Armed Woman Reportedly Infatuated with Columbine Massacre at Large in Denver Area. Aired 8- 8:30a ET

Aired April 17, 2019 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:00:00] UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It isn't just Paris. The whole world has come together.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The structure is going to stand. That outpouring of emotion continues.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You've got the whole country rising up to say they are not going to destroy something we love.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police in Denver are searching for a woman they say is armed and dangerous.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She has made concerning comments that she has expressed an infatuation with Columbine.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We want our schools to be a safe place, we take this threat seriously.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is NEW DAY with Alisyn Camerota on John Berman.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: And good morning, everyone. Welcome to your NEW DAY. It is Wednesday, April 17th, 8:00 now in the east. John Berman is off this week, Poppy Harlow joins me. Great to have you here today.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Good to be here.

CAMEROTA: It's already been a fast show, and we have another fast hour.

HARLOW: A newsy show.

CAMEROTA: It has indeed.

So the wait is almost over for the release of the redacted version of the Mueller report. This is happening tomorrow. CNN has learned that President Trump is telling aides he expects it will back up his claim of, quote, complete exoneration, end quote, but one Republican source tells CNN the president is, quote, going to be bonkers when he sees the testimony of current and former White House officials. While those close to the president tell CNN they do not expect any bombshells, some details, of course, could prove embarrassing.

HARLOW: Meantime, a federal judge this morning is very concerned about transparency and says that he may want to review the DOJ's redactions in the Mueller report after it's released. That's a judge that is hearing a Freedom of Information Act request for the full report to be released. This as Democrats are poised to subpoena the Justice Department for the full Mueller report, and that subpoena could come as soon as Friday.

CAMEROTA: Joining us now, we have Joe Lockhart, former Clinton White House press secretary, we have Rick Santorum, former Republican senator from Pennsylvania and CNN's senior political commentator, and we have Jeffrey Toobin, former federal prosecutor and CNN chief legal analyst. Rick, I want to start with you. What will you be doing tomorrow? Where will you be reading this? What will be looking for this this report?

RICK SANTORUM, (R) FORMER PENNSYLVANIA SENATOR: Look, I will be just reading I think just like everybody else, but I'm not really looking for anything in particular. I suspect that the media will focus on the obstruction of justice piece. Look, you've heard me on this program for over a year now saying that there was no collusion and that there's no evidence and there's nothing going to be in that report that's going to be new, and I believe there will be nothing with the Russia connection --

CAMEROTA: But you don't think there will be anything new of interest.

SANTORUM: No, I really don't.

CAMEROTA: Forget about collusion. You don't think that in 400 pages there will be anything new?

SANTORUM: Not that points to anything that rises to any concern that the public should have that the Trump -- that the Trump campaign was involved with the Russians beyond what we've had leak. I think there is a lot of information out there, and this is where I think your Republican source may be pointing about what members of the administration said about the president's behavior with respect to the investigation, and I think that's where you're going to find the embarrassing information.

HARLOW: Jeffrey Toobin, beyond embarrassing, what will be new that we should find out from the report is why Mueller didn't make a decision on obstruction, why he punted on the obstruction decision either to Congress or to Barr, whomever, which hopefully we will get that answer as well. That's more than just good to know, isn't that important to the republic?

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN CHIEF LEGAL ANALYST: Absolutely. And the question of obstruction of justice is very much unresolved here, it was unresolved by Barr's letter. We know what Barr thinks, but we really don't know what Mueller thinks or how he expressed it or why he concluded in this apparently ambiguous way.

One phrase that I've used and I think Rick used, and I think we need to be careful about it, and I know I've been mistaken about this, we've said that Mueller found no evidence of obstruction. And I've said that -- I'm sorry, no evidence of collusion. What he found was that there was no criminally prosecutable case about collusion. Doesn't mean he found no evidence of it. He found no evidence that he could say leads to a criminal case. Those are two very different things, and that may be one of the things we're looking for tomorrow.

CAMEROTA: Fair point. Joe Lockhart, same question. Where will you be reading the Mueller report, and what will you be looking for?

JOE LOCKHART, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I jokingly said that I would be getting a lawn chair, a cooler of beer, and sitting at the end of Ken Starr's driveway on my podcast.

(LAUGHTER)

HARLOW: Was it really a joke? Joe, was it really a joke?

LOCKHART: Well, I don't want the police to have to come and keep me off his property so I will just -- I will read it like everyone else does. I'm actually going to really be looking for what's not there. Anyone who thinks that this fight is finished tomorrow is fooling themselves. Barr made some assumptions, we're going to see what he based that on in what we see, but there's a lot of information that we're not going to see that we eventually will see in some form.

[08:05:06] CAMEROTA: You mean not going to see because it's redacted?

LOCKHART: Because it's redacted. And again, I back up Jeffrey's point, just because you can't make a criminal case for collusion and conspiracy doesn't mean they didn't do things that were wrong. And voters make decisions not on whether the president is a crook. They base it on whether they think the president can be trusted and whether he abuses his office. And I think we're going to find a lot of incidents that we have already heard about, maybe a few we haven't, where he has abused the office, and that's a big deal.

The last point I'd make is I actually think from a communications point of view, a strategy, the White House has played this all wrong. By claiming total exoneration, anything short of that now is a loss for them, and we know they're going to lose. We know we're going to find things. And, again, it doesn't matter what his base thinks. As he goes into 2020 it matters what the people in the middle think, and they don't believe the total exoneration, and there's going to be a lot of fodder for that tomorrow.

HARLOW: Jeffrey Toobin, what is your control-f first search word?

TOOBIN: I don't do it -- I have a Mac I don't use control-f.

HARLOW: What do you use? Apple-f? Come on, young producers, what do you do on a Mac? What's your word?

TOOBIN: I think that the first thing we're all going to want to know is how much was redacted. I think logistically it's going to be complicated for those of us who are going to be on TV tomorrow. HARLOW: Except it's color-coded, don't forget.

TOOBIN: But to turn the pages and see how many pages are not there. And if it's just a handful of words, then all this controversy will be over nothing. But if it's 25 percent of the report, then all bets are off about any conclusions that come from it. So I think just the issue of redactions is very important. I'm sorry, Rick, I didn't mean to interrupt you.

SANTORUM: No, I was interrupting you, and I apologize. But the beat goes on here. What we don't know -- and we've been hearing this for two years, what we don't know, and that this is speculation that all these horrible things that are out there that we're not going to know, because what you're going to find tomorrow, as I believe, is going to be a nothing, a nothing burger.

CAMEROTA: How do you know? How do you know? That's speculation on the other side.

SANTORUM: Because it's been a nothing burger so far. As much speculation as we've had, as much as all these horrible crimes and impeachment and all these things that were going to happen and spending huge amounts of media time covering this, we have nothing. And the reality is we still are going to say, well, we're not going to know tomorrow. And to keep this story alive and to keep the pressure on the president, we're going to continue to say that there's something we might not know, and that's just -- I just don't think that's good journalism, and I think that's --

HARLOW: You can absolutely disagree. Let me just make a point of fact here, that we would know all if Barr would turn over to Congress and the American public the full report.

SANTORUM: There are laws in place that don't allow you to do that.

HARLOW: Senator, Senator, you very well know that he could join Nadler and go to court and ask for a 6E exemption to be able to show that grand jury material, just like Joe Lockhart was included in Ken Starr's report --

SANTORUM: To destroy people.

HARLOW: Which I understand was under a different law --

LOCKHART: The president went from let's release the whole thing, to back to it's a witch-hunt. The important thing here is even what we know now is not a nothing burger. The president fired the head of the FBI because he wanted to stop the Russia investigation. The president fired his attorney general because he recused himself. The president has talked about pardons. This is not a nothing burger. You can have all the talking points you want that say that this is all fine. Just what we know now, there is a case for abuse of power, and the House Democrats will get into this in more detail. And you can call it whatever you want, but this isn't over, and the White House is playing into the Democrats' hands by trying to keep all this information from people. CAMEROTA: But, Joe, to Rick's point, how maddening is it to you that

there will be all of these four color-coded redactions when the Ken Starr report was just out there with all its salacious details for everybody to see?

LOCKHART: I will tell you something, it's not that maddening to me as a political animal because what this means, and I actually agree with Rick on this, is this extends the story into 2020. If I was sitting in the White House right now, particularly if it's just embarrassing stuff, I'd want to pull the band-aid off. I'd want to say here it is, everybody revel in it for a couple of weeks, and then we'll go make a deal with North Korea and no one will ever remember this again.

[08:10:01] We're going to keep talking about this until the Election Day in 2020 if the White House isn't willing to release all of this information. They can do it, you're right, they can go to a judge with the Justice Department and Congressman Nadler, release the grand jury information. It's been done in the past. It's not about ruining people's lives. It's about reassuring the American public that the president of the United States didn't abuse his power to protect himself.

CAMEROTA: Joe Lockhart, Jeffrey Toobin, Rick Santorum, we look forward to talking to you all tomorrow and getting the analysis then. Thank you very much.

HARLOW: All right, breaking news overnight, dozens of schools in Denver or in the Denver area are closed today while FBI officials look for an armed woman who says, who they say is, quote, infatuated with the Columbine massacre. Our Scott McLean is live from Littleton, Colorado. They don't know where this woman is, do they?

SCOTT MCLEAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Don't know much about her at all, Poppy. And it's important to point out also that there is no specific threat to any one school in the Denver area. But what authorities know about this armed 18-year-old woman, obviously, is concerning enough to close down nearly 20 school districts in the metro Denver area. We are talking about hundreds of students. It's really hard to overstate just how significant this is.

This woman's name is Sol Pais, she is 18 years old, as I said. Authorities believe that she came from the Miami area to Colorado on Monday, she immediately bought a shotgun and then was taken out to the foothills area, that's a suburban area west of the metro Denver area. Beyond that they don't know where she is, but they do consider her armed and dangerous.

The concerning part is what authorities say are credible but really nonspecific threats. And also this infatuation that she seems to have with the Columbine shooting that took place here back in 1999, and the shooters who carried it out and killed 13 people. But here is the rub -- what crime has she actually committed? The FBI, they're still trying to figure that out. They said that they are working with the U.S. Attorney's Office to figure out which charges may be appropriate in this case. But it is not illegal to die a gun, the threats haven't been real specific, and so it's unclear on what grounds she might be arrested. They did say, though, that if they come across her they will try to arrest her and hold her as long as they legally can. Alisyn?

CAMEROTA: Scott, thank you very much for all of that reporting.

Let's bring in Josh Campbell. He is a former FBI supervisory special agent and CNN law enforcement analyst. Josh, what a crazy story, schools are in lockdown. God bless good police work. They did here what we always wished they would do when we hear about something catastrophic happening, which is be proactive. So they were on it, they got her, and they shut down schools.

JOSH CAMPBELL, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: They did. And you see this information really being shared coast to coast. So this tip came in presumably from Miami, they are in Florida with the FBI, it was shared with officials locally there in Colorado. And, as you mentioned, they took immediate action to try to stop a potential threat.

This is very concerning because I think the system is flashing red here with this case because of the posture of law enforcement, because of what we're seeing. Most of the time investigations, they keep things very tight to the vest. They conduct their work in secret. You take, for example, this Louisiana church fire case that we just covered where they had 12 hours from the time they had identified the person until they came public, all of that was kept secret. Here what law enforcement is saying is, look, we're not keeping this secret, we're going public, we need the public's help. And it's because they're laying their cards out which signals to us they don't know where she is, and they're asking for the public to help, which, again, is very concerning.

CAMEROTA: Here's one of the troubling aspects. Upon arriving in Denver the woman immediately went to a store and bought a pump action shotgun and ammunition. The fact that a gun seller, it just sounds like didn't ask a lot of questions or didn't ask the right questions. Don't they need to be the first line of defense as well?

CAMPBELL: Potentially. In this case we don't know the circumstances. Obviously, it's legal to go buy a firearm, and if someone shows up to purchase one they are not going to necessarily ask you --

CAMEROTA: So no questions asked. When a woman shows up looking perhaps like that, there's just no questions asked. If you want a pump action shotgun, you've got one.

CAMPBELL: They're legal here, right. And that's a whole other conversation as far as accessibility. But what I think this shows for law enforcement is in any particular case like this you are looking for two sets of facts. You want intent and capability, and whether a threat is specific and credible. Now, what law enforcement is saying in this case is that it's credible, they deem, based on the tip that they got. It's not specific. And that's why you see this, really this opening the aperture across that area with all these schools.

Now, intent and capability, that's something very different. If someone intends to cause harm, which it appears here that they think she might, you have to ask yourself as an investigator, are they capable of this. The fact that she was able to go buy a firearm and is out there, that provides her with that capability. Again, all this taken together is very concerning.

CAMEROTA: Her family says they have not heard from her since Sunday. Her father was a message for his daughter, please come home. The fact that they say that she had some sort of, quote, infatuation with the Columbine massacre, having been in the FBI, do you see this kind of thing from time to time where people get fixated with a gruesome crime?

[08:15:00]

CAMPBELL: They do and the copycats are always an issue. And here we are coming up on the 20th anniversary of Columbine, which I think, you know, investigators would look at that as a set of the fact pattern here and determine OK, that may be another motivating factor if someone is trying to cause harm on the anniversary, that's obviously going to give them cause for alarm. Now, what's interesting in this case is that we always talk about in the aftermath of these shootings that Columbine changed everything from a practical first from law enforcement.

Now law enforcement officers don't wait, they go to the sound of the guns, they go to stop the threat. One thing that's also changed over the years -- and sadly we've seen this -- is the seriousness with which law enforcement takes these type of issues. So you know, 10, 20 years ago, if you had people that were musing about, you know, hatred and -- and wanting to cause harm, that may not rise to a certain level. Now they take every one of those threats seriously and I think that's what we see with their posture.

CAMEROTA: I think so too. Josh Campbell, thank you very much for sharing your expertise with us. Poppy.

POPPY HARLOW, HOST, CNN: All right. Of course we'll keep you posted on that story. Meantime, donations are pouring in from all over the world to help rebuild the beautiful iconic Notre Dame Cathedral. We'll get more from Paris ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: All right. The French culture minister says more than $900 million has been pledged so far toward the reconstruction of the Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris. We have images of the destruction from Monday's fire taken from above by a drone. Look at those. Shows that gaping hole in the top of the burned out cathedral. French president Emmanuel Macron has set an ambitious five-year timeline to rebuild. Experts say full restoration will take 10 to 15 years at least.

[08:20:00]

I'm glad to be joined this morning by Ambassador Jamie McCourt, the U.S. Ambassador to France. She joins us from Paris. Jamie, thank you -- Madam Ambassador, excuse me, thank you very much for being with us. Our hearts are with -- are with Paris, I'm going to --

JAMIE MCCOURT, U.S. AMBASSADOR TO FRANCE: My pleasure.

HARLOW: -- be there in a few weeks with our kids and can't wait to show them the beautiful facade of Notre Dame that still stands. But if you could just update us on -- on the latest in terms of the investigation. The latest we heard is that they believe it was an accident. Any more details this morning that you can share with us?

MCCOURT: There really are no other details because everyone is paying attention to reinforcing the facade and making sure that everything is safe and secure. And once they're 100 percent certain that that's the case, then they will start the investigation to really determine what started everything.

HARLOW: What does it feel like on the streets in Paris today?

MCCOURT: Well, it's really a very interesting question because it happens to be one of those stunningly gorgeous Parisian days. The sun is out and there's tons of people on the street and there's really a bittersweet sense -- you know, it's shocking that all of this has happened, but on the other hand it's also shocking that so much remains. So in fact, there's so much hope about rebuilding it and all the things that it can be. And as you mentioned, President Macron has said it will be even better than it was before. And I actually believe that as well. The French are incredibly resilient and they are, after all la batailleur (ph) --

HARLOW: Yes. Right.

MCCOURT: -- so I think it will happen.

HARLOW: There you go, the perfect word for the moment, certainly. I know that you obviously have spoken to the president, the president has spoken to President Macron. Have you had any update from President Trump? I know the U.S. is offering aid and assistance. How much, et cetera?

MCCOURT: I think everyone's waiting to see what's really needed after it's determined what is going to happen with the rebuild, what support exactly, what will be needed. So you're reading about all of the gifts that have been made from around the world. The latest, of course, from our end is both Kravis and Tim Cook from Apple, and of course you've heard about the crowd funding, which has raised over $1 billion dollars in a day and a half. So there's so much going on right now. I think we have to wait to see how it all falls out.

HARLOW: Do you know if there are any plans for anyone from the administration to visit Paris?

MCCOURT: I'm here.

HARLOW: Yes, you are. Anyone in addition to you?

MCCOURT: I really don't know. I'm kidding.

HARLOW: Of course you're there.

MCCOURT: I'm kidding. I'm teasing you. There are people constantly coming in and out of Paris from the administration and when they arrive, of course they come visit. It's very important. And so, you know, we have support both in person and we have support really whenever we need it in terms of reaching out.

HARLOW: If we could just speak for a moment about more broadly what France has been going through, what Paris has been going through with these weekly protests. You know, right before the fire erupted, President Macron was meant to speak to the Yellow Vests, who have been protesting here. A lot of this is because of inequality, economic disparity, et cetera, fears of immigration. Do you have a sense, Ambassador, that this is a pivotal moment that will have effects that resonate for months to come in terms of some way, some how helping to heal some of the wounds in France, helping to bring some together and realize, I think, our commonality?

MCCOURT: Right. I think it's another really good question. To be honest with you, it's an interesting combination of events that have occurred. But if you think about it, just like the United States, we all share these values of democracy and liberty and protecting our freedoms. It's manifested itself differently in our country versus France. So here people are used to protests and weekly protests, and so the tolerance level is extraordinarily different, it's part of the culture.

And so it's really hard to know right now whether it will have an effect or not, but I do think that what's happened with this event at Notre Dame is that it shows that everybody's daily life brings people together and that things that are as iconic as the cathedral and as significant as the cathedral and so much a part of humanity, it really shows us that the vico tidien (ph) is extremely precious and we shouldn't take it -- take -- take advantage of that -- we shouldn't take it for granted.

And we should take advantage of being brought together and not wait for something extreme to happen like this.

[08:25:00]

HARLOW: Right. What -- what -- what unites us all. I really appreciate your time this morning --

MCCOURT: Exactly.

HARLOW: -- Ambassador Jamie McCourt. Our hearts are with all of France. I can't wait to be there and lend support as well. Thank you for being with us.

MCCOURT: Call us when you get here.

HARLOW: OK. Ally.

CAMEROTA: That does sound good. That will be a good trip.

HARLOW: Yes.

CAMEROTA: All right. Meanwhile, Deborah Norville is back on TV after cancer surgery. What she says about the viewer that may have saved her life, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAMEROTA: An eagle-eyed viewer may have saved Inside Edition anchor Deborah Norville's life. 20 years ago the viewer noticed a lump on Norville's neck and reached out to bring it to her attention. The lump was initially benign but a recent test came back showing thyroid cancer. Joining us now is Deborah Norville, the anchor of Inside Edition. Deborah, it's great to have you here. You look fantastic.

DEBORAH NORVILLE, ANCHOR, INSIDE EDITION: I feel fantastic.

CAMEROTA: You do? So how are you feeling after your surgery?

NORVILLE: I feel great. My biggest concern, you and I talk for a living, is the thyroid is right underneath the nerves that power the vocal cords and I was concerned because my doctor said there was a chance there would be nerve damage.

[08:30:00]