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Deborah Norville Talks about Thyroid Surgery; Barr's Past Conclusions Memo; Iron Man Races to Recovery; Loughlin Pleads Not Guilty. Aired 8:30-9a ET

Aired April 17, 2019 - 08:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[08:30:00] ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: The anchor of "Inside Edition."

Deborah, it's great to have you here.

You look fantastic.

DEBORAH NORVILLE, ANCHOR, "INSIDE EDITION": I feel fantastic.

CAMEROTA: You do? So how are you feeling after your surgery?

NORVILLE: I feel great. My biggest concern, look, you and I talk for a living, was the thyroid is right underneath the nerves that power the vocal cords and I was concerned because my doctor said there was a chance there could be nerve damage, and, you know, we'll do our best. So I was a little nervous. But it didn't happen. So we're all good.

CAMEROTA: When you first woke up were you -- were you just trying to speak and see if you still had your career in front of you?

NORVILLE: I'm such a rule follower, no one had said, it's OK to speak yet, so I was waiting for anybody to come around and ask me something so I could respond. So when finally somebody came and like -- and I responded and I, you know, a little hoarse, of course, because you had surgery, but it worked. So I was like, thank you.

CAMEROTA: Tell us about this viewer and this viewer's message to you 20 years ago.

NORVILLE: Yes. So this is interesting. This -- and I'd heard from a number of people over the years, but the very first person who reached out was a woman from California who actually worked in television. I have not been able to find her. I've tried really hard. But she reached out to the publicist of our show and she said, I've noticed a lump on Deborah's neck. I had something similar. It turned out to be thyroid cancer. So, please, just have her check it out. And she knew not to call me directly because she figured sometimes those don't get to you. So I had it checked and it was benign, as you said in the introduction.

And for years we've monitored it. And that's really my message here is, if you have a health situation, be persistent in keeping tabs on it. So every year, year and a half, we would measure the modules, there were several of them. They would fine needle biopsy, see if there was anything funky with the cells and it was always fine, until the beginning of this year when -- when the cells had turned cancerous, precancerous, you know the -- it was scary stuff. And so the doctor said -- his recommendation was to go ahead and have the surgery.

CAMEROTA: And what did you think when you heard that it had turned cancerous?

NORVILLE: I wasn't surprised because I just -- you know sometimes you just have a feeling. It's like I was talking to somebody earlier today and their wife also had had thyroid cancer and for years she had a feeling, she had a feeling and nobody would listen to her. So, you know, another part of my message is, if you suspect, if you sense, because we do have that intuition, act on it, and make sure someone listens to you.

CAMEROTA: What do the rest of us need to know about thyroid cancer?

NORVILLE: Well, you know, it's funny, I asked my doctor, because there was a lot of attention because of my surgery, and I said, do we all need to be running to get thyroid scans now? He said, no, this is not like you need to have your regular mammogram or your regular colonoscopy. If you feel a lump, if someone sees a lump or you see a lump, if you have difficulty swallowing, if you have difficulty speaking, if you experience pain, those are indicators that you should go to your physician and have it checked out. And if they blow you off and you have these symptoms, go find another doctor. Find somebody that listens.

CAMEROTA: I see that you still have tape.

NORVILLE: Yes.

CAMEROTA: And what's your healing process like?

NORVILLE: So I get to keep this lovely tape on for about a month. The doctor says it's supporting the scar. But when they took out the stitches, before they stuck this on, I got to look. It's amazing because what they did is they did a zigzag stitch underneath the skin and then they glued -- basically they held my skin together with the surgical tape. And so supposedly I will have minimal scarring. But who cares, because, you know what, a scar is an indicator that you fought a battle and you didn't die. So I'm good with it.

CAMEROTA: Absolutely. Modern medicine.

NORVILLE: Yes.

CAMEROTA: I mean what they can do now in terms of obviously saving lives.

NORVILLE: Yes.

CAMEROTA: And so what is your message to what viewer? I mean it's too bad that you haven't been able to find her. I mean, obviously, your publicist wouldn't still have the name after 20 years.

NORVILLE: No. And, unfortunately, my publicist has passed away. So -- so I really don't have any way. But she knows and the many people who reached out to me know. You potentially saved my life. And I am hugely grateful. And I think, you know, we live in this time, if you see something, say something. You know, and they're usually talking about bombs on the subway. Well, if you see something about someone you care about, and, let's face it, you're in people's homes every morning, your audience cares about you. If they notice something on Alisyn that they think she needs to check out, let her know because she needs to check it out. So I think we all need to do that for each other.

CAMEROTA: Well, I did have this experience, Deborah. It's a little bit weirder than yours. An eagle-eyed viewer --

NORVILLE: Yes?

CAMEROTA: Did write in because they -- this was 12 years ago -- because they noticed a strange abdominal distention on me. I wrote back annoyed and said maybe I ate too much at the barbecue.

NORVILLE: Right.

CAMEROTA: But I did go to the doctor and the doctor said, quote, there's a baby in there. And that's my son Nate.

NORVILLE: No way. You did not know you were expecting?

CAMEROTA: No. And an eagle-eyed viewer knew before I did.

NORVILLE: Oh, my God.

CAMEROTA: And so there is something about viewers who see things before even you and I can, which is crazy.

NORVILLE: Well -- and did you reach out to that viewer and later tell her, oh, you were right, I was pregnant?

CAMEROTA: You know, I -- because I had yelled at her via e-mail, like, thanks a lot, maybe I ate too much, I then, on camera, said, like, sorry about that, you were right.

NORVILLE: Oh, wow.

[08:35:00] CAMEROTA: So I did -- I apologized on camera.

But isn't that crazy that viewers do know us sometimes better than we know ourselves?

NORVILLE: And it's not just people on TV. We did a story several years ago on "Inside Edition" about a woman who had been communicating on the Internet via FaceBook with someone she didn't even know, but she noticed something odd about the iris of her eye and she -- she knew that to be an indicator of something really serious. And I forget now what it was. The woman's life was saved because of a FaceBook friend. A random person she didn't even know. So let's all take care of each other because it's a good thing to do.

CAMEROTA: That's a great message. We're so glad that you're doing well and healthy. It's wonderful to see you, as always.

NORVILLE: Thank you.

CAMEROTA: And we're very grateful to our viewers.

All right, Poppy.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: I always loved watching you, Deborah Norville, on TV.

NORVILLE: Thank you.

HARLOW: Now I love you even more.

Thank you for coming in. We're glad you're OK.

NORVILLE: Thank you.

HARLOW: All right, big day tomorrow, if you haven't heard. Attorney General Barr's summary of the Mueller report isn't the first time that he has summarized something really important. We're going to take you back in time for a must see "Reality Check" with John Avalon, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:39:58] HARLOW: All right, so when William Barr had to explain to the American people a really important Department of Justice legal opinion, he took that opinion and turned it into a short report that, quote, summarizes the principal conclusions.

Does that sound familiar? What I'm talking about actually took place back in 1989.

For that, John Avlon here with a history lesson "Reality Check" for us this morning.

Good morning.

JOHN AVLON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Oh, it's a case of history repeating, guys.

So it's said that those who can't remember the past are condemned to repeat it. And that would appear to be the case with our attorney general, William Barr. In his four-page memo on the principal conclusions of the Mueller report.

Here's the thing, it turns out that Bill Barr has run this principled conclusions play before. And when all the information finally came out, Congress found out that some pretty critical information was missing.

So let's take a trip all the way back to Friday the 13th, October, 1989, "Tears for Fears" was at the top of the pop charts, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez was born on that very day, and one William Barr was working in the office of legal counsel under President George H.W. Bush.

Now, thanks to some digging by law professor Ryan Goodman (ph) at Just Security, we know that on that day a legal memo written by Barr leaked to the press that made some stunning assertions, that the FBI could make arrests on foreign soil without getting the permission of those foreign governments.

Now, this was a reversal of U.S. protocol, as well as obligations under the U.N. charter. And it was seen as an attempt to provide legal cover for the arrest of Panamanian strongman Manuel Noriega on drug trafficking charges.

Well, two months later, the U.S. invaded Panama to do just that. It was kind of a big deal. So Congress asked Barr for the original legal opinion. Barr refused to give it up, instead he offered a 13-page testimony that he assured Congress, quote, summarizes the principal conclusions.

Sound familiar? That's the exact same phrase and tactic Barr used last month when he framed the results of the Mueller investigation in his four-page memo.

But when Barr did this the first time, after Congress subpoenaed it, the actual 22-page document, they found significant differences between Barr's summary and the actual legal opinion. For example, Barr breezed over the president's obligation to take care that treaties like the U.N. Charter be faithfully executed. Barr also didn't mention that his opinion overturned an earlier OLC opinion about abductions on foreign soil. These were significant sins of omission, conclusion that Barr apparently chose to hide from Congress, and they didn't come into light until years later.

Now, at that point, those concerns were literally academic. But a 1996 law review's article conclude that Barr's congressional testimony, quote, attempted to gloss over the broad legal and policy changes that his written opinion advocated, and cited the depth of its, quote, deviation from accepted norms.

Now, Barr knows that the scrutiny on the Mueller report is going to be much more intense than a relatively obscure OLC legal opinion, but this blast from the past matters because it may reveal his instincts and methods in support of a strong executive vision of the presidency, at least as it applies to Republicans.

So that's why it's noteworthy that some on the tight-lipped Mueller team have come forward to suggest that Barr's trumpier memo of principal conclusions is something less than the whole truth. Now, we're going to know a whole lot more tomorrow morning, but it may turn out to be more evidence that the past is prologue, especially when it comes to people, or as Harry Truman used to say, the only thing new in the world is the history you don't know.

And that's your "Reality Check." CAMEROTA: Oh, my gosh, John, that is fascinating.

HARLOW: So good.

AVLON: Fascinating, right?

CAMEROTA: Summarizing may not be his strong suit.

AVLON: Yes. He's run this play before, people, so let's watch.

CAMEROTA: Good to know. Thank you.

All right, there are new developments this morning in the college admissions scandal. A source tells CNN why Lori Loughlin pleaded not guilty, next.

HARLOW: First, a true iron man who beat the odds. Dr. Sanjay Gupta has today's "Turning Points."

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TIM DON: Iron Man is exhausting. You know, you're starting off with a 2.4 mile swim, and then you're out for 112-mile bike, and then a 26.2 mile run, a marathon.

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Tim Don (ph) is used to pushing his body to the limits. The tri-athlete competed in three Olympic games and broke the world record for the Iron Man in 2017, but even record holders have setbacks. Tim's was particularly brutal.

DON: It was the Wednesday before the world championships in Kona (ph). It was one of my last bike rides. I remember seeing the white truck and then the next thing I remember is about 25 minutes later, I was in excruciating pain.

GUPTA: The truck hit him, breaking his neck.

DON: That's when my world got turned upside down.

GUPTA: In hopes of racing again, Tim chose one of the most uncomfortable forms of treatment, a halo.

DON: They literally get four titanium screws and they tighten them into your skull. Every day I had that halo there were times thinking, I just can't go on.

GUPTA: But even with his halo in place, Tim began training in true Iron Man form. Six months after breaking his neck, he completed the Boston Marathon in less than three hours, and one year after his accident Tim was competing at the Iron Man world championships in Kona.

DON: For me personally it was a victory. You just don't know what's going to happen. So to go back there and finish, definitely, I've got my head held high. [08:45:00] GUPTA: Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN, reporting.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: All right, some pretty stunning new developments in actress Lori Loughlin's fight against federal charges in that college admissions scam. A source close to her tells CNN this morning that she felt she had no other choice but to plead not guilty. The source says a plea deal had been taken off the table and they were told, she and her husband there, Mossimo Giannulli, that in order to get another plea deal or avoid jail time potentially they would have to do this. Prosecutors say that Loughlin and her husband paid $500,000 to a fake charity to get her two daughters into USC as crew recruits, even though neither of them had ever rowed competitively.

Joining us now, criminal defense attorney Joey Jackson, former New York City prosecutor Paul Callan, both are CNN legal analysts.

Good morning to you gents.

JOEY JACKSON, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Good morning.

PAUL CALLAN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Good morning.

[08:50:00] HARLOW: So, part, duh, let's pick up where we left off yesterday.

So, this -- Lori Loughlin's team, Paul, is saying that she had no choice, she had to plead not guilty because the prosecutors took the plea deal off the table. Why would prosecutors take a plea deal off the table?

CALLAN: Oh, they could do that.

HARLOW: I mean she had time to agree to it before they did that.

CALLAN: Well, she did have time to agree to it, but this is an ongoing investigation and it's not at all unusual for sometimes prosecutors to come and back off on a plea deal when they find maybe there are more serious charges that have to be lodged. She probably rues the day she didn't take that first plea because it would have put her in a better, better position.

But we don't know how the sausage is being made in this case and what's going on in the background. So I'm going to give her the benefit of the doubt and say maybe she would have considered a plea.

CAMEROTA: Well, it sounds like she would have.

And, Joey, I mean, you know, there's been so much public speculation, what's she doing, what's her strategy, why not take the plea, that's ridiculous, Felicity Huffman did. But now, I think that this is really insightful. Chloe Malis (ph), our crack entertainment reporter, has found out she

would have. I mean I just think it's interesting to say people -- her -- the quote from a source, people must not realize that she has no choice, the plea deal has been taken off the table.

JACKSON: All right. Well, people need to understand, the first thing is, is that it is pro forma, it's generally the practice that at an arraignment you plead not guilty. There's no real mystery to that. It's the nature of the business. This was an arraignment. And at an arraignment, even though the appearance was waived, the fact is you enter a no guilty plea as a matter of course. So no mystery there.

The real takeaway that I get from her saying that, hey, I thought I had no choice, is potentially she may be stewing and thinking about taking a plea at some later time. However --

CAMEROTA: But that window has closed.

JACKSON: Right. No, because, generally speaking, what prosecutors did is they're playing hard ball, to be clear. And what they did is say, look, get in early, accept responsibility early, you do that, we're all good. If you don't do that, you've got a problem. And they made true on their word. Why? Because they issued this super seeding indictment, amended indictment, including additional charges, to say, we mean business, now it's too late.

I would suspect that at some future time perhaps the plea deal would not be as favorable, but I would suspect that prosecutors, in an effort to avoid a trial, may very well come back to them and say, hey, this is what we got, are you going to do it this time or should we amend and supersede again.

HARLOW: And just to be clear, plea deals are never as sweet the longer they're sitting around, right?

CALLAN: No, they're not. It get -- it gets worse the longer you wait.

But I think there's something else that's important here. American citizens have the constitutional right to have a jury trial if they want one. I mean we're talking about Lori Loughlin like she's a criminal because she's saying I want to go to trial. I want to -- I want to test the evidence here. She's presumed innocent and she has the right to go to trial. So -- so I think we have to keep that in mind.

Federal prosecutors are so spoiled by the resources of the federal government they have available, they think that they have to punish American citizens who have the audacity not to plead guilty. Well, give me a break, American citizens have the right to a jury trial if that's what they want.

CAMEROTA: Well, part of the reason, Paul, that we're jumping to judgment is because we've watched what's happened with Felicity Huffman. So we already have this cautionary tale before Lori Loughlin --

HARLOW: Yes.

CAMEROTA: Where these other 13 have pleaded guilty. So it seems, just from our, you know, amateur eye that there must be evidence because they're all pleading guilty.

CALLAN: Well, Felicity --

HARLOW: Who are you calling an amateur over here?

CAMEROTA: Yes, I know, what am I talking about?

CALLAN: Felicity looks like Ms. Goody Two-Shoes and Lori Loughlin is the wicked witch of the west now because she wouldn't take the plea.

CAMEROTA: It does seem like that's how everybody's bring pained.

CALLAN: Yes.

CAMEROTA: But, meanwhile, Felicity Huffman, we now understand, that prosecutors are asking for between four and ten months in jail. And so even an early plea deal and a letter of mea culpa might not let her escape jail.

CALLAN: It may not, although I'm betting a judge is going to give her a pass.

CAMEROTA: A judge will (INAUDIBLE).

CALLAN: Well, you know, these judges, they've got the crypts (ph) and the bloods (ph) and drug dealers and violent criminals taking pleas and then Felicity comes in --

HARLOW: Martha Stewart anyone?

CALLAN: Well, Martha Stewart, yes, but --

HARLOW: Joey Jackson?

CALLEN: She went to club fed didn't she? Yes.

JACKSON: Yes. So let me disagree in two respects with my esteemed colleague and mentor here, Mr. Callan.

Look, here's the issue. The issue number one is, yes, we have a right to go to trial, but there needs to be some incentives that you provide the public so as not to go to trial. Trials are major endeavors. If you're going to hold the prosecution to the proof, you're going to get punished. There are consequences to going to trial. That is why we have plea deals. That is why, at the end of the deal, people ultimately decide, hey, maybe the getting's good, let me get out now.

On the other issue, it's, look, in the event that the prosecutors have the goods, that is they have the evidence, why are we wasting time? Everyone's entitled to the presumption of innocence. Live that every day. And, in fact, if you want to go to trial, you should. However, there's often realities that prevent you from going to trial. Those realities we call evidence, right? And in the event that they have evidence of a conversation in which you're acknowledging what you did of perhaps e-mails, of perhaps wire transfers that you paid money, of perhaps an informal, Mr. Singer, who's saying, she knew all along, then it may be time to exit stage left.

CAMEROTA: All right, Joey, Paul, dynamic duo, thank you very much.

JACKSON: Thank you, Alisyn and Poppy.

CAMEROTA: OK, "The Good Stuff" is next.

[08:55:00] HARLOW: First, a programming note, join W. Kamau Bell as he shines a light on people creating change, fighting for justice and really making a difference. Season four of "United Shades of America" starts Sunday, April 28th, only at 10:00 p.m., right here on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAMEROTA: OK, it's time for "The Good Stuff."

A special Easter for visually impaired children in New York.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have my 12 eggs.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: OK, volunteers organized a beeping Easter egg hunt. The ATF agents actually helped wire the eggs along with the NYPD and the FDNY. The hunt was originally started by Holly Bonner (ph), who writes the blog "Blind Motherhood" and the kids seemed to eat it up.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I found the eggs without getting so scared.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Awe.

CAMEROTA: The eggs are traded in for chocolate, naturally.

HARLOW: Of course.

CAMEROTA: Volunteers say they would not trade this experience for the world.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Anytime you can give back to these children and see the smiles on their faces, it's what it's all about.

(END VIDEO CLIP) CAMEROTA: That is so nice.

HARLOW: The best. The best.

CAMEROTA: I mean and she said that she was able to find the eggs without getting scared.

HARLOW: Love it.

CAMEROTA: That is a great concept.

[09:00:01] HARLOW: I just got out our Easter egg dye kit to do with my daughter this year.

CAMEROTA: We're doing it this weekend, too.

HARLOW: I need to put plastic all over the entire house so that the dye doesn't get everywhere.

CAMEROTA: I would.

END