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Early Start with John Berman and Zoraida Sambolin

Mueller Lays Out Trump-Russia Contacts, Efforts To Obstruct; Mueller: Fmr. WH Counsel Refused Trump Order To Fire Mueller. Aired 5- 5:30a ET

Aired April 19, 2019 - 05:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[05:00:00] ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: This is a special edition of NEW DAY. It's Friday, April 19th. It is 5 o'clock in the east. We're getting earlier. John Berman is off. Chris Cuomo joins me. Thanks so much for getting up early to be here today. It's another important day.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: It is a part of the Good Friday process that's coming in here.

CAMEROTA: Donning here.

CUOMO: It's a meaningful day. And it's good to start it early and it's good to start it with you. This morning, this is going to be big for people.

CAMEROTA: It is because people are digesting it. So the country is still digesting this nearly 450-page Mueller report. President Trump of course is taking a victory lap. He's claiming no collusion, no obstruction. But the report of course paints a much more complicated picture.

"The Wall Street Journal" headline this morning reads, Mueller report lays out Trump's attempt to curtail inquiry. "The Washington Post" says, Mueller's report paints a damming portrait of the Trump presidency. "The New York Times" calls the report a portrait of the White House and his culture of dishonesty.

So the Mueller report finds that the president lied to the public and he tried to get aides to lie for him repeatedly. It did not exonerate him on obstruction of justice. The Mueller team said they were unable to conclude that no criminal conduct occurred.

CUOMO: And then it gets a little thick. So you're going to have to walk through it. And you're going to have to read it for yourself. Because for instance, while the special counsel couldn't conclude whether to bring a criminal case on obstruction, they did meticulously lay out a fleet of examples of potential obstruction that showed our attorney general's quick dismissal of the case smacks of politics.

Mueller found the President did try to obstruction but was unsuccessful sometimes because his aides didn't obey him. The special counsel also explicitly mentioned Congress's role in holding potus to account for abuses of power beyond criminal charges. We also learned that the President was bluffing when he would call the probe a hoax. In fact, when the special counsel was named, he called it, the end of his presidency. So while not finding a criminal conspiracy, the report lays out multiple contacts between Trump associates and Russia saying, the campaign did expect to benefit from Russia's actions but took no criminal steps to help. Something doesn't have to be a crime to be unethical and just wrong.

And there was a lot of that. And much of it was lied about repeatedly. So there's a lot to cover. Let's begin with CNN's Jessica Snider live in D.C.

JESSICA SCHNEIDER, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Chris. This massive Mueller report giving us an even closer look inside the White House, really painting a portrait of a presidency in chaos, fueled by public lies and denials of reporting that has now proved true.

And with Mueller's inquiry wrapped and those damaging details coming fully to light now, the President's fate is in the hands of Congress. Though, Democratic leadership is really arguing against pursuing impeachment despite calls to take action over those damming details.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SCHNEIDER (voice-over): Robert Mueller's 448-page report outlining President Trump's frantic efforts to thwart the special counsel's investigation noting that these efforts were mostly unsuccessful largely because the persons who surrounded the President decline to carry out orders or accede to his requests.

Upon learning that the special counsel was appointed after he fired FBI Director James Comey, Mueller writing that President Trump declared, "Oh, my god, this is terrible. This is the end of my presidency. I'm F'ed"

Mueller writes, the President pressed Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein to give a news conference suggesting firing Comey was his idea. Rosenstein telling the President that a news conference was a bad idea because if the press asked him, he would tell the truth.

According to the report, President Trump proceeded took a series of actions to curtail the special counsel's probe, including directing White House Counsel Don McGahn to instruct Acting Deputy Attorney General Rosenstein to have Mueller removed.

The special counsel writing that McGahn did not deciding instead that he would resign rather than trigger what he regarded as a potential Saturday Night Massacre. President Trump saying this when "The New York Times" reported on that story last year.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Fake news, folks, fake news.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What's your message today?

TRUMP: Typical "New York Times" fake stories. (voice-over): The special counsel also detailing a number of other instances where the President tried to sabotage the investigation, including asking former campaign manager, Corey Lewandowski, to tell then Attorney General Sessions to curtail the investigation, directing the deletion of a line in a press release acknowledging that the Trump Tower meeting with Russians had to do with information helpful to the campaign.

Urging Attorney General Jeff Sessions to unrecuse himself and sending veiled or direct messages, either personally or through intermediaries to former campaign chairman, Paul Manafort, his former lawyer, Michael Cohen, and his former national security adviser, Michael Flynn, encouraging them not to cooperate.

Mueller noting that he ultimately did not bring charges of obstruction of justice against Mr. Trump due in part to a Justice Department guideline, that a sitting president cannot be indicted.

[05:05:08] The special counsel writing, if we had confidence after a thorough investigation of the facts that the President clearly did not commit obstruction of justice, we would so state.

Mueller suggesting that Congress, not the Justice Department, should decide whether to prosecute the president. Attorney General Barr defending the President's conduct.

WILLIAM BARR, ATTORNEY GENERAL: There is substantial evidence to show that the President was frustrated and angered by his sincere belief that the investigation was undermining his presidency.

(voice-over): Within minutes, House Democrats were calling for Mueller's testimony, and slamming Barr.

REP. JERROLD NADLER (D-NY): Barr's words and actions suggest he has been disingenuous and misleading in saying the President is clear of wrong doing.

(voice-over): The report also offering new detail about the extensive efforts by the Russian government to interfere in the 2016 election to help elect Trump including attempting to hack Hillary Clinton's e- mails five hours after Mr. Trump said this.

TRUMP: Russia, if you're listening, I hope you're able to find the 30,000 e-mails that are missing.

(voice-over): Mueller ultimately determine that while the campaign expected it would benefit electorally from information stolen and released to Russian efforts, he could not establish that members of the Trump campaign conspired or coordinated with the Russian government, President Trump remaining defiant.

TRUMP: I'm having a good day too. It was called no collusion, no obstruction.

(END VIDEOTAPE) SCHNEIDER: And notably, President Trump's lawyers actually kept him from sitting down for an interview with the special counsel. Mueller in his report disclosed that they did consider issuing a subpoena for the President's testimony since they found his written responses inadequate.

But Mueller's team ultimately decided that pursuing that path would lead to lengthy litigation. In the meantime, Trump's team still has not issued any sort of written rebuttal despite getting that early access to the Mueller report before the public release about a week ago. Alisyn and Chris?

CAMEROTA: Yes, maybe they decided not to do that. I mean--

CUOMO: No, Rudy last night.

CAMEROTA: He said that he is going to do it or--

CUOMO: He says they have it. They're ready. And they wanted to let this play out a little bit first, because they like the way the narrative is going, although, I don't know why. And then we'll put it out when we need it.

CAMEROTA: Yes. I think that makes sense. I mean I think that -- and we'll get to Joe Lockhart in a second that why continue it. That putting out your rebuttal only continues the conversation. If you think you're done, if the President is taking a victory lap, why do it?

CUOMO: With one comma. If you want to be what they say they are, which is all about transparency and letting people know everything, then you would put it out right now. If you're gaming the system, once again, then you play to advantage. And look, he hired people to help him do just that. They did a good job. People won't like to hear that, I know. But they were hired to protect him. If he had different lawyers, we may be telling a very different story.

CAMEROTA: Great point. So let's discuss all of this. We want to bring in our guests. We have David Gregory, CNN political analyst, Joe Lockhart, previously mentioned, former Clinton White House press secretary and CNN political commentator, we also have Abby Phillip, of course CNN White House correspondent, and Renato Mariotti, former federal prosecutor and CNN legal analyst.

And Renato, I want to start with you because I watched you poring through the dense 450 plus pages yesterday studiously. And so now that the smoke has cleared a little bit over the past 24 hours, what is your take away?

RENATO MARIOTTI, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, I will say on the collusion side of it, although there was no criminal conspiracy between the Russian government and the Trump campaign, there's certainly is an agreement on certain points. I mean, the Trump campaign I think was trying to get the aide at ties of the Russian government.

CAMEROTA: And Mueller says that. Mueller says that they welcomed the aide.

CUOMO: They expected the benefit.

CAMEROTA: They expected the benefit.

MARIOTTI: Exactly right. And at times, there seemed to be great efforts although a lot of it is redacted to make contact with WikiLeaks and have coordination with them. I think what the public can learn from that portion of it is how hard it can be to prove a criminal conspiracy beyond a reasonable doubt, something that I think all criminal lawyers know.

I will say on the other side, on the obstruction side, an absolutely devastating case against the President, a case that I think Mueller could have brought. I think there's a lot of signals in there that he would have brought that case if it wasn't the President of the United States. And I think it was very clear that the Justice Department guidance is what held him back.

CUOMO: Hey, Abby Phillip, what's the word from the White House? How are they feeling that it went yesterday? What do they think this means for them?

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Chris, I think the one thing that everybody needs to pay attention to is just the fact that we haven't heard from President Trump. He declined to talk to reporters on multiple occasions yesterday, other than making a very brief comment while he was at the White House with the Wounded Warriors event.

And honestly, that tells me that this is a President who's listening to his lawyers, listening to Rudy Giuliani who's telling him, just let this marinate for a little bit. He's clearly watching television. He's tweeting out favorable comments that he has been seeing because generally I think in the places where he cares what people are saying, namely his favorite shows on Fox, they are saying all the right things for him.

[05:10:11] And he's letting that really play out. I think the White House is going to hang their hat as they have been for many weeks now, on the fact that there were no charges brought down in all of this. I think they're going to bank on the idea that the American public is not going to dig terribly deeply into this report. They're not going to latch on to these anecdotes that are coming out from the report.

And they're going to take the top line and run with it. And I think that's why you've seen a President who's generally pretty happy with how this turned out. And really probably thrilled with how Bill Barr did yesterday in that press conference laying it out for the American people and probably the most favorable light possible for the President and allowing that sound bite to carry the day for the next few days. I think that's where we are right now.

When he's here in Florida, he typically spends the day golfing. I don't think we're going to really hear a whole lot from him except on Twitter. CAMEROTA: And so Joe, you being a strategist, would you just let this lie now? Would you ever release that rebuttal?

JOE LOCKHART, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I think Giuliani signaled that they want to wait until they need it. Their strategy is pretty simple. They just want to make sure that they're reassuring their base the Fox News world, you know, the Rush Limbaugh world, that they were somehow vindicated, exonerated.

It's not true. Not much coming out there that we found out of the President's mouth is true. But their strategy all along is to make sure that they keep their base happy and then, you know, come election time, you know, just pick, you know, pick up marginal voters, you know, at the edges.

And if you watched, you know, if you spent time watching T.V. yesterday, you would think there were people, America was two different planets. You know, on one station Fox, it was vindication. On every place else, it was serious questions and this now goes to Congress. So that's their strategy. I don't think it's particularly good one. But it's the one they're following.

CUOMO: David, if you don't like the information, attack the source. Rudy Giuliani, and Jay Sekulow last night, when I would present things from the probe as findings of fact, they'd say, who says, that was never tested in a court of law. We can't go on that. It's just what Mueller says. That doesn't make it true. That's the strategy.

DAVID GREGORY, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, that's the strategy. And look, the reality is they had an incredibly serious minded person with incredible credibility and high standards leading an investigation that ultimately resulted in no crimes and no recommendation for charges of obstruction of justice and a catalog of unseemly behavior of lies, of paranoia of all kinds of behavior in response to a legitimate investigation in a series of really troubling questions that I think as citizens we should be very happy that after a terrible attack on the country, a hack and attack by Russia on our electoral system that the President of the United States or those close to him did not commit a crime according to the special prosecutor who took a very deep look at all of this.

So I think the White House has reason to feel relieved. And there are certainly lots of questions about their judgment. They can be tested politically now. And we have a big election coming up next year. But I do think it's worth pointing out something. You know, Democrats got very angry. And I think justifiably so when Jim Comey came out saying that nobody would bring charges against Hillary Clinton, the secretary of state, for handling of confidential and classified e-mail.

And then went on to editorialize about the mistakes that she made and the poor judgment. And Republicans piled on because they thought that that should be a big issue. Well, Democrats now want to do the same thing to Trump, whether there's evidence of a crime or not. Not understanding that, again, if his judgment and actions that he took and others took are signals of judgment and character and fitness for office, voters can make that decision next year and Congress can take a look at this and make a decision about whether they think there's high crimes and misdemeanors.

CAMEROTA: But it sounds like they're already doing that, David. I mean you say the Democrats are piling on. I hear them backing away.

CUOMO: From impeachment.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

GREGORY: Well, from impeachment right else. And I agree with you. And why, because, you know, I think it's instructive, and Joe has his own views about this. But a lot of the restraint in this report, a lot of the restraint by Bob Mueller, the restraint you're hearing from Democrats who are in leadership is a response to the overreach of Republicans against Bill Clinton.

CAMEROTA: Joe?

LOCKHART: Well, listen, I just have to respectfully disagree with David's analysis. There is a huge difference between what Jim Comey did to Hillary Clinton and what Bob Mueller was doing.

[05:15:07] Jim Comey could have gone to the Justice Department and tried to indict Hillary Clinton. He didn't think a case was there. But he also didn't want to exonerate or, you know, bless her behavior. The critical part of this report on obstruction of justice and Mueller makes it clear and I'll defer to the many legal experts is, he believed the Department of Justice guidelines said, he could not indict a sitting president.

So this is not gratuitous editorializing. He actually is laying out a roadmap for here is a very strong case for obstruction of justice. But I can't bring this. He's not saying that the President didn't commit a crime. He's saying, I can't charge him with a crime, based on DOJ guidelines. And that's a very different situation. On the impeachment question, the Democrats face a difficult choice.

You know, I think the Democratic base want this, want now someone to bring these charges and the appropriate places in the House. But, you know, Nancy Pelosi understands that we could go through this entire process and never convict him in the Senate. There not a -- I don't think there's a single Republican in United States Senate that will vote against him.

So they have to wrestle with this. But it's not a binary choice. I think as you go forward, you'll find the Democratic leadership will set up a place to investigate this thoroughly, and make a decision down the road on impeachment.

CUOMO: I'll tell you what would rang most clear to me--

PHILLIP: It doesn't-- Can I just weigh in real quick on--

CUOMO: Go ahead Abby, make a quick point, and then we'll got to go to break.

PHILLIP: Just -- yes, it seems to me that one of the reasons the White House is so happy is because in this report, it doesn't seem that there's anything in it that will change the minds of Republicans. Now, that's a really I think high bar for this President.

But they don't think that there is any momentum toward impeachment in the details of the report. Nothing to give Republican -- to keep Republicans up at night. And I think that's important for them because they're holding on, not just to their political coalition among the voters, but importantly lawmakers who are really the sort of firewall between the President and an impeachment proceeding in the House and in the Senate. So I think that's one of the other reasons why they're so happy about how this all turned out for them.

CAMEROTA: Great point.

CUOMO: And the thing that nobody can dispute that is all over this report is, wow, did Russia do us dirty in that election.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

GREGORY: Yes.

CUOMO: And they were so effective and we don't know how to stop it.

CAMEROTA: And we will get into all of that, all of the evidence against Russia coming up in another segment.

CUOMO: So one of the questions now is, why didn't the President successfully obstruct justice? Did his aides save him, in particular the man on your screen, former White House Counsel Don McGahn? Did he save the presidency? Next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[05:22:00] CUOMO: So here's what we know, the Mueller report lays out a detailed case of obstruction against President Trump. They couldn't make a criminal case but there are lots of examples. And it reveals for instance some key aides may have stopped the President from himself, including former White House Counsel Don McGahn who refused the President's order to fire Mueller.

Let's bring back Renato Mariotti, David Gregory, Joe Lockhart, and Abby Phillip. The significance to you in terms of whether or not to formulate a case, oh, it seems like he wanted to obstruct justice by doing this. But this guy didn't listen. This guy didn't listen. And then Mueller goes far enough to say but if they had listened, I could've charged them. How do we make sense of that?

MARIOTTI: Wow, I mean, it's frankly a very strong case. Here you have all of these people, senior White House officials who thought that the President was asking them to do something profoundly wrong. The White House counsel thought that the President was asking him to do things that he was willing to resign over.

At one point Mueller said that he imagined -- Don McGahn imagined that this would be another Saturday night massacre which is of course, the episode that left the downfall of the Nixon presidency, so very serious stuff. What I took away from all of this was Mueller had a case to make against Donald Trump. He had an obstruction of justice case.

If it wasn't for the DOJ guidance, he would have made it. And frankly, he was such a fair minded guy that he didn't feel like he could do much with that because Trump wouldn't have a constitutional right to defend himself in court because he wouldn't be able to go to court.

CAMEROTA: And by the way, that is what Attorney General Bill Barr misrepresented. One of the many things that Bill Barr misrepresented in his summary of this, it was that Bob Mueller felt his hands tied by those rules. And we'll get into all the things that Bill Barr misrepresented. But that's just one of them.

MARIOTTI: Yes. In fact, the first question a journalist asked at that press conference yesterday, very telling, they asked, what was there a role that the DOJ guidance played in Mueller's decision not to charge? And what did he do? Barr said, he pivoted away from the report. And said, well, I had a private conversation with Mueller and asked him squarely about it. It was clear he's trying to deceive the public on that point.

CUOMO: Hey, Joe, I want to ask you something. I was thinking about what you said in the last segment. You really believe that Democrats have a hard decision to make about impeachment? I mean isn't it clear that if you don't have crimes and you don't have consensus, you've got to beat them at the ballot box. And to David's point, you know, you have a lot of ammunition. Now, you've got to prove that you have someone who's better than he is with a better message and you beat him at the ballot box. That's it.

LOCKHART: Well, I think the reason it's a hard decision, and you can look at this purely in political terms as the base of the Democratic Party wants something to happen. You know, they look at the Mueller report and say, the President has committed crimes this time and he should be removed. And ignoring that sentiment of the people who are for you, you do at your own peril.

It is a difficult decision. I think there's a middle ground. I think you saw Nancy Pelosi late yesterday indicating that they're going to take a good hard look at this. They're going to continue their investigations. I don't think you'll see an answer on impeachment forthcoming very quickly.

[05:25:12] CUOMO: Steny Hoyer said he doesn't think you should do it.

LOCKHART: Yes. And I think, you know, when Steny Hoyer says something and then Nancy Pelosi comes behind him and says something different, you should listen to the speaker. And I think he was -- I think she did that on purpose. And wanted to make sure that Democrats know out in the country that we haven't decided what we're going to do. And we're going to take a hard look at this, and we're going to hold the President accountable.

I think that's ultimately that's what Democratic voters want to know. They want to know that the President will be held to account and he won't be given a pass. Because they don't believe he's been exonerated. And then by the way neither does Bob Mueller. And just be clear the--

GREGORY: Well, but let me say, I think again, I mean I mostly agree with what Joe is saying, but where I respectfully disagree is this portion about subjecting who we charge criminally in this country and making this by popular demand. It doesn't work that way.

CUOMO: Hold on. Abby, what is attacking you?

CAMEROTA: OK. Abby is there a mouse?

CUOMO: Hold on. Abby, what was that?

CAMEROTA: Abby, what was that?

PHILLIP: There is a lizard climbing on me, sorry.

CAMEROTA: What was climbing on you?

CUOMO: A Komodo dragon.

PHILLIP: A lizard.

GREGORY: I thought I heard something. And I didn't know if it was Joe. I didn't know what. Abby, did you just stomp out a lizard on live television?

PHILLIP: Sorry that just happened on live television.

CUOMO: Is that lizard OK?

PHILLIP: And it was a giant lizard.

CUOMO: -- very well.

PHILLIP: I don't think it's OK. But I'm fine. Florida girls would be outside.

CAMEROTA: It's tropical.

PHILLIP: At least it wasn't an alligator.

CAMEROTA: Better.

LOCKHART: To pick up on David's point, I actually don't think it's by popular demand. I actually think that, you know, the politics of this situation may preclude the Democrats from going forward. If there wasn't, you know, if this was just about what's the right thing to do for the country, I think Bob Mueller was screaming in his report, Congress, please take a look at this.

GREGORY: Well, that's a point where I was actually disagreeing a bit, Joe, is I think, I agree with you that the report is definitely a roadmap to say, you know what, there's no evidence of a crime here that I could find. And this isn't up for popular demand. Prosecutors make decisions about whether to bring a case or not. Bad facts don't mean that you can bring a case.

But there's no question that there is a roadmap to follow here if you are Congress doing its job saying, was there political obstruction here. Is there a high crime or misdemeanor? Let's examine that and move forward. Now, the politics of that are fraught.

CAMEROTA: Hold on. Hold on--

LOCKHART: But David he's not making the case that there -- I don't believe that he's making the case that there isn't evidence here to bring a criminal case.

CUOMO: -- because he was examining this to whether or not there's a case.

CAMEROTA: Renato is going to be the tie breaker.

LOCKHART: Yes.

MARIOTTI: Yes. I've got to say, first of all, I'm saying there's no evidence of a crime is flat out false here. And just to be clear, Robert Mueller, I think very clearly sets out a case as to obstruction of justice.

I think Joe is correct that, you know, he leaves that in the political branches because of the Justice Department guidance. But there's no question to me that he set forth a case as to obstruction of justice. I don't think it's a fair reading to say that he did anything.

But and frankly, I think as Joe said, if you're doing it just based on the quote, right thing to do. I think Congress would move forward, that the political ramifications are the challenge. But for right now, the Democrats have to keep that option open just to get the report.

GREGORY: Let's not argue this. Let's not extrapolate from the report something that is not also in the real world. There's politics in every decision, you know this, about bringing a case. You've worked as an -- in AUSA.

MARIOTTI: Whoa, I do not agree with that.

GREGORY: Really? You don't think there's discretion in politics about whether to bring cases and whether you can prove the case? Come on.

MARIOTTI: No, absolutely not. Come on. If I was investigating a bank robbery or a drug deal, I wasn't thinking about politics, I was thinking about whether there was enough evidence.

GREGORY: Right.

MARIOTTI: And the President of the United States cut off-- GREGORY: Well, that's a discretionary decision. I didn't say its all politics but there's certainly politics if you're an attorney general or if you're a U.S. attorney about whether to bring a case--

MARIOTTI: No.

GREGORY: -- how to bring it.

MARIOTTI: Well, look, certainly the executive branch makes -- the legislative branch make the laws. But there was not politics about whether or not to charge a fraud or to charge a bank robbery. The reason the President of the United States is not being charged is because he's the President of the United States. He has the office to thank for that.

And let's just be very real about that. The fact of the matter is that if there were 60 votes in the Senate, he'd be impeached, period, because there's overwhelming evidence of obstruction of justice. We can pretend otherwise but that's the truth.

GREGORY: Well, again, I'm not making this an argument either way on this point. I'm just saying that to say this absolutely takes us out of the point of where we are today which is there will be a political decision that's made by Democrats on whether to move forward based on whether they think they can make the case politically.

And I'm not disagreeing that Mueller has certainly provided a roadmap for Democrats in Congress to begin that. So I'm not disagreeing on that.

CAMEROTA: Abby, we're going to give you the last word because you just squashed a lizard.

CUOMO: It was an alligator.

[05:30:00] CAMEROTA: Now it is.

PHILLIP: The lizard is gone. But just to weigh in on this a little bit.