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Early Start with John Berman and Zoraida Sambolin
CNN Reality Check: The Mueller Report By The Numbers; Key Takeaways From The Mueller Report; How Will The Mueller Report Influence Voters In 2020? Aired 5:30-6a ET
Aired April 19, 2019 - 05:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[05:30:00] ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: -- now it is.
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: The lizard is gone.
But just to -- just to weigh in on this a little bit -- I mean, I think what's in -- what I found so fascinating about this obstruction case is just how the president clearly knew that what he was doing was wrong because he tried to get people who had no business firing his attorney general, like Corey Lewandowski, to pass on the message to him. Corey Lewandowski then passed it on to another aide who also had no business trying to fire the attorney general.
And this is a pattern of the president really trying to outsource things that he doesn't want his fingerprints on, whether it's for public consumption or because -- and this is in the report where Mueller thought that maybe the president thought that he was breaking the law in some -- in some cases, and was trying to -- trying to hide that. And maybe he wasn't actually breaking the law, but the president might have thought he was.
I thought that was extraordinary that he knew that this was not right and was trying to hide it. And I think it does speak, in some ways, to his mindset and to his motivation for doing it. And I think that probably speaks to the people who think he should have been charged because if you don't think that you're obstructing justice you're not going to try to hide the activities that you're doing that seem like obstruction of justice.
CAMEROTA: Yes, that was very interesting to see the various people who for whatever reason -- maybe they have a moral compass, maybe it was self-preservation -- didn't follow the president's orders. And we'll get into that later in the program.
Thank you all very much for this debate.
All right, we'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[05:36:02] CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: Four hundred forty-eight pages of Mueller report. Now, you could say it boils down to just a few key takeaways -- some themes that repeat themselves over and again.
John Avlon has that reality check.
JOHN AVLON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Guys, the subject is daunting and the length dizzying. But after you've read through the Mueller report, some damning stats jump off the page. This is the Mueller report by the numbers.
First, more than 30. That's the number of times President Trump used phrases like "I don't recall" or "I don't remember" or "I have no recollection" in his official responses to the special counsel's questions in the Russia probe.
Next, 36. That's how many pages all of the Mueller report redactions would have filled -- some eight percent of the 448-page report.
Next, at least five. That's the number of times the report says President Trump asked senior aides to lie either for him or for the administration.
Also, five. That's the number of hours it took Russian hackers to target Hillary Clinton after they heard Trump say this during the campaign.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Russia, if you're listening --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AVLON: Two hundred and three. That's how many times the report mentions CNN, "The New York Times," "The Washington Post," and NBC. The implication -- Robert Mueller was leaning pretty hard on what Trump likes to call the fake news media for his definitive report.
Eleven. That's the number of instances of possible obstruction of justice allegedly perpetrated by Trump and his associates as examined by Mueller. Those include everything from President Trump attempting to have special counsel Robert Mueller removed to pushing White House counsel Don McGahn to deny that Trump attempted to have Robert Mueller removed.
Speaking of McGahn, the next number is one. And that's the number of things that saved Trump from an obstruction rap, namely the fact that some higher-minded associates refused to carry out his orders. McGahn, quote, "Refused to receive from his recollections." That's fancy legal speak for "wouldn't lie."
Comey didn't kill the Flynn investigation because of Trump's request that he, quote, "let it go." And neither former Trump campaign manager Corey Lewandowski nor White House official Rick Dearborn would pass along Trump's message to then-Attorney General Jeff Sessions that he should essentially kill the Russia investigation.
Now, staying with obstruction, nine. That's the number of pages Mueller spent telling Congress exactly how it could bring an obstruction of justice charge against the president, even though he determined that he, himself, was unable to.
Despite this, the last number out is zero. That's the amount of specific evidence Mueller found that could clear Trump of an obstruction charge.
And that's your reality check.
CAMEROTA: I love when John does math.
AVLON: Yes.
CAMEROTA: It's so great, John. Thank you.
AVLON: It's so refreshing. It's --
CAMEROTA: It's hot.
AVLON: It's early in the morning, but math hotness.
CAMEROTA: A little early for that -- you're right.
AVLON: Math hotness.
CAMEROTA: That was great, John. You'll be back in the next hour. Actually, you'll be back in a minute. Thank you very much, John.
All right. CNN legal analyst Elie Honig is going to join us with his three big takeaways, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[05:42:38] CAMEROTA: All right. The Mueller report paints a pretty damning picture of the Trump presidency, but let's talk about the big takeaways from the Mueller report.
Joining us now is CNN legal analyst Elie Honig. He's a former federal prosecutor. And, John Avlon is back with us.
OK, Elie, you have been great at giving us your topline thoughts all throughout this. So now that the smoke has cleared -- it's been 24 hours -- you've digested this -- let's talk about your three big takeaways.
Number one, evidence of obstruction of justice. What's your takeaway?
ELIE HONIG, CNN LEGAL ANALYST, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: You have to start with obstruction, Alisyn. So if this was any person other than the President of the United States, I can say as a former prosecutor, this would be a knockdown case for obstruction of justice. I've charged and convicted people on obstruction of justice based on a fraction of this evidence.
But, of course, the big sticking point was this DOJ policy. Now, William Barr, I think, misrepresented to the American people when he said that policy had nothing to do with Robert Mueller's decision not to charge it. In fact, when you look at the report, Mueller really wrestles with that decision and I think it's the only reason that he did not charge the president and why I think what it seems like Robert Mueller was trying to do was send it over to Congress for their consideration. That's number one.
CUOMO: I agree with that part, but give some attention to the other line of potential defense, which would be the president was just pissed off that you were coming after him for this.
HONIG: Yes.
CUOMO: So all of these were the product of that. He was angry. He could fire all these people.
He knew that this was wrong, in his opinion, so that explains the actions. It wasn't to obstruct, it wasn't corrupt intent, it was a fit of pique.
HONIG: Yes. William Barr tried to just, I think, make an excuse for the president by saying he felt anger and frustrated, to which I say boo-hoo. I mean that's why people obstruct justice because they're angry. They're frustrated that they're being investigated.
I would -- I see that as evidence of motive -- of why he would obstruct justice.
CAMEROTA: OK, your next -- quickly, we want to get through your next takeaway.
HONIG: Yes.
CAMEROTA: The Trump campaign expected to benefit from the Russian interference and there's ample evidence of that.
HONIG: Yes. So, Russia's the second big point. No crime -- I get it -- no conspiracy.
I think Mueller lays that out clearly and I think we all should accept that. But that doesn't mean it's a straight, clean bill of health for this administration, politically, security-wise, historically.
And one of the key findings -- and let's not lose sight of -- is that Russia hacked that election in order to help Trump win, and the Trump campaign expected to benefit electorally.
[05:45:04] AVLON: And that --
HONIG: They knew it was going on and they benefited from it.
AVLON: Let me just add to Elie's point on this. That sentence is the other half of the sentence that Barr kept raising --
CUOMO: Yes.
AVLON: -- in his report and the press conference. He literally had to separate the sentence to highlight the one part about the president --
CAMEROTA: And omit the other part.
AVLON: Yes, and actively omit the fact that not only was Russia actively working to help Trump but that the Trump campaign expected to benefit.
CUOMO: Right. Barr only told us they couldn't find proof to satisfy a criminal case that they didn't coordinate. And then, oh, OK, there you have it --
AVLON: Yes.
CUOMO: -- except they were trying and they liked it. And they lied about what they did to try to get the benefit again and again.
CAMEROTA: And it was the (INAUDIBLE).
AVLON: And it's -- and it's right at the top of the introduction. I mean, Barr, you have to assume, consciously separated it because he wanted to highlight one and push down the other.
CAMEROTA: All right. Very quickly, just explain how you think that Don, Jr. -- there was so much attention about if he would be in trouble. How do you think that he avoided indictment?
HONIG: By the skin of his teeth. There's a detailed analysis in the memo -- in the Mueller report about the Trump Tower meeting. And really, what it comes down to is Donald Trump didn't -- Jr. -- didn't have quite enough specific knowledge of the campaign finance laws.
The campaign finance laws are strange. They're unusual in our criminal world in that you have to have a heightened sense of awareness of those sort of obscure laws. And that really looks like the main thing that saved Donald Trump, Jr. from indictment.
CAMEROTA: Go ahead.
AVLON: Look, I mean, in terms of saving the president, I think what's striking about this is that the ornate game of contain the president -- the way that the White House staffers try to dissuade him from giving in to his impulses ended up saving his bacon in pretty fundamental ways. That's pretty striking.
His impulses were wrong. Their attempts to contain this worst impulses ended up vindicating him. The obstruction of justice thing -- any other human being would have been charged by the topline.
For me, it paints a picture of the president as a serial liar with no respect for the rule of law, but not a traitor. Take that as a win, America.
CUOMO: Hey, look, it's a better situation than if we had to deal with the fact that our president operated as a Russian agent -- or people around him.
AVLON: Yes, which would be terrible.
CUOMO: And, I --
CAMEROTA: OK. I see you've lowered your standards for what makes you happy.
CUOMO: But I'll say I'll take that as good news --
CAMEROTA: Yes.
CUOMO: -- and then we have everything else to deal with.
CAMEROTA: All right, thank you, gentlemen, very much.
How are voters responding to the Mueller report? We're going to head to a battleground state to get reaction, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[05:51:30] CAMEROTA: Of course, American voters will ultimately render a verdict about President Trump at the ballot box in 2020. So, now that the Mueller report is out, how are voters feeling today?
CNN's Miguel Marquez is live in Milwaukee, Wisconsin with more. Miguel, what have you learned?
MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, there.
November third, 2020 feels a long way away, doesn't it? Look, everyone is talking about this report but nobody I'm talking to thinks that its findings are going to make much of a difference to anyone.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
STEVE SCAFFIDI, HOST, WTMJ RADIO, MILWAUKEE, WISCONSIN: Good morning, Wisconsin. Forty-eight degrees at Radio City.
MARQUEZ (voice-over): Release of the redacted Mueller report in Milwaukee, the talk of the town.
SCAFFIDI: Obviously, the big story today, the Mueller report. The redacted version is coming out hopefully as we speak.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's out now.
SCAFFIDI: We've got it.
MARQUEZ (voice-over): On conservative talk radio, host Steve Scaffidi says he's talked Mueller four to five times a week for the past 22 months. Now that it's out there --
SCAFFIDI: For a lot of people on my side of the aisle I think we're looking at this as yes, there could have been some reason to investigate this, but I think it has been hyper-politicized to the point where it just went on too long. MARQUEZ (voice-over): And from caller after caller after caller the president isn't perfect but the investigation has gone too far for too long.
SCAFFIDI: Eddie, from Franklin, real quick. I've only got about a minute, Eddie. What say you?
EDDIE: I say it's a total fishing expedition. They had a prejudgment about Trump ahead of time. They just -- you know, they don't like this character, which a lot of people don't. But, I mean, they just don't agree with his policies.
MARQUEZ (voice-over): In the Milwaukee suburbs, Port Washington in conservative Ozaukee County where in 2016, voters supported then- candidate Trump by nearly 19 points over Hillary Clinton. Some Republican voters here say --
LINDA WELLS, REPUBLICAN VOTER: We're sick of hearing about it. I think Washington -- they want to focus on it -- those people want to. But for us -- my friends -- we're sick of hearing about the Mueller.
MARQUEZ (voice-over): Democrats want more details but concede regardless of what's in the report it's likely to make little difference in how voters view the president.
SUSAN NIEDERFRANK, DEMOCRATIC VOTER: I think I've been reading about it for a long, long time and it seems like I'm not sure anything is going to change.
MARQUEZ (voice-over): Closer to downtown in blue Wauwatosa where voters backed Clinton over Trump by 22 points, some Independent voters here say the entire report must now be released.
PAM MASILOTTI, INDEPENDENT VOTER: The full report needs to be fully disclosed to everybody so that we can read it and see what is actually in it.
MARQUEZ (on camera): No redactions -- no redactions in the full report. The full report, everything.
MASILOTTI: The full report, absolutely. We have a right to see the full report.
MARQUEZ (voice-over): Some Republicans also welcoming full publication, confident there is nothing there.
JOHN ALBERTI, REPUBLICAN VOTER: If this was going to have any kind of major impact on anything, they would have already brought indictment or charges or recommended further prosecution. So I don't think it's really going to be the big reveal like everyone thinks.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MARQUEZ: So I spoke to Independents, Democrats, Republicans -- even Republicans who don't like the president. And so across the board, they said look, if this is still the discussion in 2020, it's going to improve the president's chances of being reelected -- Chris.
CUOMO: Interesting. Still cold in Wisconsin, I see. Miguel, thank you very much for soldiering for us.
MARQUEZ: Still cold.
CUOMO: Looking good, as always.
[05:55:00] All right. The president is claiming exoneration again after the report has come out. The details of the report are not great for him.
Now what? That's the big question, right? What will Congress do? Let's take that up, next.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. ADAM SCHIFF (D-CA): The facts established by this report are damning.
RUDY GIULIANI, ATTORNEY FOR PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: The report really displays that this is over, they just don't know it yet.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The nature of Trump's actions, his obstruction, his (INAUDIBLE) is making Nixon look good.
GLORIA BORGER, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: There were guardrails inside the White House that wouldn't do stuff that the president wanted them to do.
SARAH SANDERS, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: I acknowledge a slip of the tongue when I used the word "countless" but it's not untrue.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN CHIEF LEGAL ANALYST, STAFF WRITER, THE NEW YORKER, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: It is an active attempt by the White House to create a false narrative for why James Comey was fired.
END
