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Legal Expert Wary of Impeachment Now Says It Is Plausible; Democrats Debate Whether Prisoners Should Be Allowed to Vote; Militia Leader Claimed Group Trained to Kill Obama And Clinton; U.S. Successfully Gets "Sexual Health" References Removed from UN Resolution on Rape as Weapon War. Aired 3:30-4p ET

Aired April 23, 2019 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:30:00] PHILIP BOBBITT, CO-AUTHOR, "IMPEACHMENT, A HANDBOOK": They were not corrupt, he wasn't putting his own personal interest in the place of the state or the country. If these acts described by Mueller have not brought the government into contempt or damaged its legitimacy, they'll say so. But the important point is to follow up on the leads and establish for the country a legal rather than a political standard.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN HOST: On that final point, this is what Speaker Pelosi has said, "show the American people, we are proceeding free from passion or prejudice, strictly on a presentation of facts." In other words make more of a cerebral decision based -- instead of perhaps emotional or hyper political. How can they do that? How can they proceed in that way?

BOBBITT: They can simply follow the law. You may have heard many times that high crimes and misdemeanor is too vague a standard.

BALDWIN: Yes.

BOBBITT: That is not right. The constitution doesn't simply say high crimes and misdemeanors. It says treason, bribery or other high crimes and misdemeanors. Those acts that are political crimes of the same gravity as treason and bribery. It is not just whatever a political caucus wants it to be or however they may want to attack the incumbent administration, these are legal standards and they should be applied by our legal representatives.

BALDWIN: Philip Bobbitt, thank you so much. Thank you, thank you.

Coming up next, Senator Bernie Sanders doubles down on his view that prisoners should still be able to vote while they're serving time. Fellow 2020 Democrats though aren't as sure about that. We'll get reaction from a former felon, who has since become a lawyer working to restore rights to ex-convicts. Don't miss that.

[15:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Should prisoners like the Boston Marathon bomber have the right to vote while serving their sentence? Democratic Presidential candidate, Senator Bernie Sanders, said yes. And he raised some eyebrows when he argued his point at last night's CNN "TOWN HALL."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I-VT) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: If somebody commits a serious criminal, sexual assault, murder, they're going to be punished. They may be in jail for ten years, 20 years, 50 years, their whole lives. That's what happens when you commit a serious crime.

But I think the right to vote is inherent to our democracy. Yes, even for terrible people. Because once you start chipping away and you say well that guy committed a terrible crime, not going to let him vote. Or that person did that. Not going to let that person vote. You're running down a slippery slope.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: After he said that, the reaction from his 2020 contenders was mixed.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. KAMALA HARRIS (D-CA) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I agree that the right to vote is one of the very important components of citizenship. I think we should have that conversation.

MAYOR PETE BUTTIGIEG (D) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Part of the punishment when you are convicted of a crime and incarcerated is you lose certain rights. You lose your freedom and I think during that period it does not make sense to have an exception for the right to vote.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Bakari sellers is an attorney and CNN commentator and Desmond Meade is the president of the Florida Rights Restoration Coalition and Desmond was just in the "Time 100 List" for leading the effort to restoring voting rights to felons in Florida.

So welcome to both of you. And Desmond, let me start with you. You know, you have this felon record. And you have paid your debt to society, you could now vote. So do you think inmates, same question to you, should be able to vote?

DESMOND MEADE, PRESIDENT, FLORIDA RIGHTS RESTORATION COALITION: Well, I think that the question might be -- stated wrong. I think the question should be should American citizens ever lose their citizenship because of mistakes that they made? Right.

BALDWIN: What is the answer to that?

MEADE: When you think about it in that context. The answer is no, they shouldn't lose their citizenship. You know, I have four young sons who every now and then they might make foolish mistakes but they never stopped being a Meade, they never stopped being my son. Nothing speaks more to American citizenship than being able to vote and so -- BALDWIN: Even if you are a convicted murderer or a rapist or a sex

offender, no matter what, you're saying they should be able to vote.

MEADE: If they are an American citizen, they should be able to vote. But you see, I want to be able to address that in a different context. Because what we heard at the "TOWN HALL" was in the context of politicians and their engaging in their little sound bites. The concern that I have is whether or not any of those candidates have really had real conversations with directly impacted people, people like me.

We have people in Louisiana and North Carolina, Pennsylvania and California returning citizens that's been leading this effort for many years. What's very important is that any one of these candidates that's trying to get to the White House, they must have a conversation with people like us to really get a better and deeper context of this debate and then the larger picture of criminal just.

BALDWIN: Sure and when you made the point about speaking in sound bites, last night I heard Bakari chuckle, and I want to talk what we heard from them in a second. But Bakari, just on the question in and of itself on its face, what do you think?

[15:40:00] Should inmates or as Desmond prefers, you know, American citizens behind bars be allowed to vote?

BAKARI SELLERS, CNN COMMENTATOR: Well, the answer to that question is no. And I don't believe that the Dylann Roofs of the world or the Boston bombers of the world should have the right to vote.

But even before we get to that point, because there is one small caveat that I'm sure Desmond and I can agree on because he's been doing great work. We have to applaud the work that he has been doing and other returning citizens have been doing. Because I think what they are doing is actually the goal that every candidate should get to. Which is, if you are in this country and you are off your papers, which means you are off parole or you are off probation and you have served your time, then your right to vote must be re-established immediately. And those returning citizens deserve the right to vote immediately.

Those individuals who are incarcerated right now who are serving their time, the answer to that question is no. But the individuals who have served their time in states throughout the country and in fact Florida has now caught up to South Carolina allowing returning citizens the right to vote. I think every single state in the union should have that standard because you should not be punished for the rest of your life because of a mistake that you made. I do agree with that.

MEADE: Bakari, but we're still behind Maine and Vermont. Which, you know, they have their people never lose the right to vote and then there is several states that allow people to vote even while they are on probation. So I think that --

SELLERS: I think that is a debate that we can have. I think that allowing someone to vote while they may be on probation or maybe on parole, while some of the rights are being -- some of the rights are being granted is fine. I think that we can actually find the middle ground. I think that's what Senator Harris was talking about. But I just have a hard time saying that someone like Dylann Roof has the right to vote. And I know that people will say that that's a sensationalized argument and that is the worst of the worst. Well where do we draw that line and I that that's my problem, that's my hard one.

MEADE: Bakari, I think that is a great point. But we cannot engage in picking and choosing who is worthy of being able to vote and who is not worthy of being able to vote. Because when we get there, I mean that line could be drawn in so many different ways from so many different people.

And just like when you engage in the topic of violent versus nonviolent, at the end of the day, people that we're talking about are people. And we have to be in a comfortable position to understand that our protection of rights that are afforded to people like Dylann Roof is important for our own protection. Because the minute that we erode those protections for the worst among us, all of us are vulnerable.

SELLERS: Yes, I wholeheartedly agree that this is the discussion we should have and this discussion with all due respect to Pete Buttigieg and Kamala Harris, who I love and support and even Amy Klobuchar and rest, they don't need to be leading this discussion. It is people like Desmond who are actually doing the work on the street that needs to be leading this discussion and this is one that should be had. I would say --

BALDWIN: And may I, but shouldn't Kamal Harris -- and back to you, Bakari, shouldn't Kamala Harris have has, you know, being a former A.G. have had an opinion on this when asked about it last night?

SELLERS: Well, I mean I think that welcoming a discussion about it just as Desmond and I sitting here talking. I mean, even I'm rethinking some of my positions. This is something that is a newer issue. I do not believe though that Bernie Sanders answer -- and not just to pick on him. Anyone who has that position that felons incarcerated should vote. I think that that is a hard and fast line that if you committed a felony and your incarcerated right now, serving your time, that you do not have that right to vote. But if you're on probation or parole, we could have that conversation.

But I'll tell you this, and I think Desmond and could agree with this and I hope every candidate agrees with this, that we should make sure that individuals who are returning citizens who have served their time and no longer on probation, parole could get the right to vote. That is something we could agree on and work from there.

BALDWIN: There you go.

MEADE: I totally agree with you. I think that we take this one step at a time. But I also agree with you about Miss Harris, I believe that her willingness to have further conversations really speaks to the fact that returning citizens formerly incarcerated and convicted people need to be at the table, at the heart of these discussions with any of these candidates before they even take any kind of position.

BALDWIN: Sounds like you've got some conversations to have and maybe already changing minds. Bakari Sellers, thank you, Desmond Meade, thank you so much for all the work that you do.

MEADE: Thank you, thank you for having me

SELLERS: Thank you for having this discussion, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Yes, thank you.

Coming up next, the leader of an armed militia that has held hundreds of migrants at the border just had his first court appearance. Hear what documents show about alleged assassination plots coming up.

[15:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: A leader of an armed militia that has detained hundreds of migrants at the southern border, one said that group was training to assassinate both Hillary Clinton and former President, Barack Obama. That stunning claim comes from these now unsealed court documents in the case of Larry Mitchell Hopkins. The so-called commander of the group, United Constitutional Patriots, is charged with being a felon in possession of firearms and ammunition.

Videos posted online show armed members of his group detaining migrants including families with young kids. Hopkins' attorney said the group believed they're helping Border Patrol.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KELLY O'CONNELL, ATTORNEY FOR MILITIA LEADER: They believe that they are helping to enforce the laws of America on immigration. I mean, that's basically -- it's pretty simple.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Enforcing in what way? Helping to enforce--

O'CONNELL: Helping to intercept people that they believe are coming across illegally. And getting them to I.C.E.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Rodney Scott is a chief patrol agent for the San Diego sector of the border. So Rodney, thank you very much for being on with me.

[15:50:00] And just in your own experience, first off, are these sorts of militias common? Have you worked with them?

RODNEY SCOTT, CHIEF PATROL AGENT, SAN DIEGO SECTOR BORDER PATROL: So, first, thank you for having me on today.

BALDWIN: Sure.

SCOTT: The situation on the border, the crisis we're facing is just kind of getting worse each day and this is another symptom of that. Wherever there's a lot more media attention on what's going on, on the border, and rightfully so, we tend to see an increase in the militias. We do not condone private citizens taking law enforcement into their own hands.

Borders is a very complicated situation. A lot of times we're out there at night. It's very important that we know whether we're interacting with criminal transnational organizations or other law enforcement and this really complicates or challenges even more.

BALDWIN: You heard that this this militia groups thinks they're helping you guys. Are these kind of groups a threat to border agents? Keeping in mind, this group is accused of plotting these assassinations against Obama and Clinton, how concerned would you be for the safety of border patrol agents?

SCOTT: So, I'll just re-state, again, I think this is a symptom of everything -- the crisis that's unfolding on the southwest border, but we don't condone this. It's very challenging, when there's new people, if you will, especially if they're armed infused into what is already a dynamic and dangerous situation. We do encourage people to help us, but it's by calling in activity, and or currently the real fixes we need are at the Congressional level.

So interacting with their legislative representatives and pushing those long-term real fixes for the border.

BALDWIN: These militia members were armed. They were telling migrants, apparently, to sit down until Border Patrol arrived. And what happens if one of the migrants doesn't listen? Or gets up and walks away?

SCOTT: So that's the fear. With a professional law enforcement organization on the border, my agents are trained in how to act in each one of those situations, on how to respond when private citizens come down to the border, armed or unarmed, and insert themselves into that situation. The training could be prior military, prior law enforcement, or no training whatsoever and it creates a very dynamic dangerous situation.

BALDWIN: Chief patrol agent, Rodney Scott, thank you sir, very much, for all that you do. Appreciate you.

SCOTT: Thank you.

BALDWIN: The President's son-in-law and one of the people making decisions in the White House just completely downplayed Russia's attacks on America's elections. His stunning remark, ahead.

[15:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Moments ago, the U.N. Security Council passed a resolution to protect wartime rape victims, but it was missing some key language that mentioned sexual and reproductive health. Michelle Kosinski is our CNN senior diplomatic correspondent and she's with me now. It's a pleasure to see you.

MICHELLE KOSINSKI, CNN SENIOR DIPLOMATIC CORRESPONDENT: Hi, you too.

BALDWIN: So the language was removed because of protests from the Trump administration?

KOSINSKI: Yes. I mean, they are really the only ones that had a problem with this. That's why, in the human rights community, among people at the State Department, this is not only jaw dropping, that they needed this language removed, but it's also appalling to many people. Because this was a resolution to help victims of rape during wartime.

And throughout the original document, which we were given by sources, you could see how they've made reference to health services, sexual and reproductive health, providing those services to women, making sure it's nondiscriminatory, all of this language that you would expect to see when you're talking about rape victims. For example, in the original language that we have, it said, physic social services, legal, livelihood support, health services, taking into account specific needs of persons with disabilities.

So it's this well-rounded paragraph, just saying, we need to provide these services to people. The next day, someone gave us a draft that had been marked up to try to form a compromise with the Trump administration. Because they wanted all this language removed. And they simply made reference to a prior resolution and took out all the specifics. But even that wasn't enough for the Trump administration here. In the final draft, which the U.S. did not veto, but voted for, all of that is gone.

So there is no reference anywhere in this resolution to health services, to sexual and reproductive health, specifically. That is because the Trump administration sees that kind of language, however vague, as code for abortion. And it was the U.S. siding with China and Russia to take out another part of this document, that would have allowed for monitoring and reporting of these kinds of atrocities in war, to set up a system for monitoring this. Only the U.S., China and Russia were opposed to this. So to U.S. allies, also, this is quite surprising.

BALDWIN: I wanted to ask you about. It's important to make sure everyone is aware of what has happened there. I do, while I still have 60 seconds left with you, so the big news today from the White House and Buckingham Palace, the first state visit in June. How will Trump be received in London?

KOSINSKI: Right. I mean, it's not all that different from the other visit he made, which wasn't so long ago, and that wasn't a state visit, officially. But he did meet with the Queen on that visit. But remember, what we saw among the people were mass protests. They had the big Trump baby balloon flying in the sky. The internet was just ablaze with protests over this.

So, no, President Trump is not popular in Britain. He is not popular at all in Europe. I think it remains to be seen what kinds of, what kinds of protests we'll see, but the U.K. government and the Royal Family are going to do their best to make this as welcoming as possible.

BALDWIN: OK. Happening in June. Michelle Kosinski, thank you very much. Good to see you. I'm Brooke Baldwin. Thank you for being with me. "THE LEAD" starts right now.

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