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Sri Lanka Links Bombings To New Zealand Mosque Attacks; Leading Dem Candidates Make Their Case in CNN Town Halls; Democratic Candidates Divided On Impeaching Trump; Pelosi: Focus On Investigating Trump, Not Impeaching Him. Aired 6-6:30a ET

Aired April 23, 2019 - 06:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[06:00:00]

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: And the death toll in Sri Lanka is now up to 321 people. More than 500 others were injured.

And this morning, there are many questions about intelligence failures. Authorities reportedly had prior information that a possible attack was coming but did nothing to stop it. There were even warnings from the U.S. and India weeks ago. CNN has learned U.S. officials believed the Sri Lanka attacks have the hallmarks of an ISIS-inspired attack.

Let's get right to CNN's Ivan Watson, he again is live in Negombo, Sri Lanka, with all of the breaking details. What is the latest, Ivan?

IVAN WATSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, John and Alisyn. The senior state defense minister has made a startling assertion in parliament, saying that he believes that the Easter Sunday attacks that killed just a staggering amount of people and wounded so many more were the work of a local Islamist extremist group. He's identified as National Thowheed Jamath and saying that they carried out their attacks as retaliation for last month's mass murder and shooting in two mosques in Christchurch, New Zealand.

If this is true, and I have to point out, there has been no claim of responsibility yet, then we are dealing with the twisted logic of mass murderers. And if you need evidence, just look in St. Sebastian church here, which is now the scene of a forensics police investigation. You still have the flowers from the Easter mass on Sunday around the altar there, and the walls spattered with blood from more than 100 people killed when a suicide bomber, who was caught on security cameras at this church walking in carrying a very large backpack, and actually caught on camera patting a little girl on the head here in the courtyard where I'm standing before walking into the crowded church, and then slaughtering so many innocent people.

So it is -- again, there has not been a claim of responsibility, and there's some questions about this organization, National Thowheed Jamath which up until now, had been linked with little more than some vandalism of Buddhist statues. That said, the authorities here have apologized for what they say was a lapse in security and of intelligence gathering, when they got a warning from a foreign intelligence service saying that this very group was planning suicide attacks against Catholic churches, and the authorities did not act on that threat that came earlier this month. But there are also concerns that this could be linked to a broader international group, certainly the scale and the complication of near simultaneous attacks against six targets would require just an organizational skill that is kind of hard to imagine, in the hands of a home-grown group that hadn't pulled off anything of this scale before.

The authorities are still worried about threats. We've just heard a warning for all police stations in the capital to be on alert, looking out for vehicles that they suspect could be carrying explosives. John and Alisyn?

BERMAN: Ivan, I have to say, the images from inside that church behind you are chilling. And you put it so well when you said the twisted logic of mass murderer. Because sometimes, there is no logic. There is only evil and hate.

And this was a concern after the killings in New Zealand, when ISIS and Al-Qaeda both essentially made international pleas for revenge. Wouldn't necessarily be surprising if that served as some kind of inspiration here.

WATSON: And John, I covered the aftermath of those atrocities in Christchurch. A gunman shooting people kneeling in prayer. And I have to say, the methods may be different, but the hatred and the massacre of innocent civilians, women, children, men, is all the same. So, it is just a personally a very -- I don't quite have words for this.

Again, there has not been a formal claim of responsibility, but the Sri Lankans are looking for help from international allies, if there are in fact international links for this. They're reaching out to ambassadors and other intelligence agencies for help in trying to resolve this. They've arrested at least 40 people so far, the police say. All of those are Sri Lankans thus far.

And people are nervous right now. This is supposed to be a national day of mourning. There are supposed to be funerals throughout the day at this location, where so many innocent people were killed, but they were suspended after 16 people had services. And there were concerns about the large numbers of people gathered here with a massive police and army presence here to protect people.

[06:05:14] I've spoken with several Christian clergymen, nuns. They are afraid that they could be targeted simply because of the crosses or the vestments that they're wearing. John and Alisyn.

BERMAN: All right. Ivan, again, thank you for being there for us, for being our eyes and ears there on the ground to tell this story. Because the world needs to hear it.

CAMEROTA: I mean, of course, people are afraid to go to churches. That's exactly what the terrorists want. You to be afraid of going to place where you seek solace, so that you've been start avoiding it. BERMAN: And the images Ivan were saying were so similar between this and New Zealand, and so is the type of hate, so is the type of hate and the language that they use.

All right. Well, it's nice to be back.

CAMEROTA: Welcome back. It's great to see you. You brought a little piece of Barcelona back with you.

BERMAN: You know, I don't like to shave on vacation --

CAMEROTA: I can see it.

BERMAN: -- I have to say. And I also -- I caught a little bit of the show while I was gone. I noticed that there was this guy here who claimed that no amount of steroids or, what did he say, plastic surgery could ever turn me into him with Cuomo. But this is something he can't do. He's completely hairless.

CAMEROTA: Wow.

BERMAN: Just telling you.

CAMEROTA: Wow. Well that shows him. That's going to show him. That shows you, Chris Cuomo.

BERMAN: Grow this --

CAMEROTA: OK?

BERMAN: -- Cuomo.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

BERMAN: Steroid the face. It is the morning after the first major event in the 2020 presidential race. The CNN town hall, five candidates on the same stage, not at the same time, trying to carve out their own space in this large, diverse, and growing field. What was most revealing, to me at least, was that there are real differences now emerging on key policy issues, voting rights for people in prison, tuition-free college, and then there are growing disagreements on a crucial choice facing Democrats now, whether to begin the impeachment process of the President based on the Mueller investigation.

Our MJ Lee is live in Manchester, New Hampshire with a recap of a really interesting night, MJ?

MJ LEE, CNN NATIONAL POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Good morning guys. Five back to back town halls giving us the clearest sense yet of the different styles and the policy positions that these various candidates from the giant Democratic field are starting to take on. And we also got a sense of how they are planning to win over the very important young and millennial vote.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) LEE (voice-over): Five leading Democratic presidential candidates battling it out in a town hall marathon in New Hampshire. Their one major goal --

SEN. KAMALA HARRIS (D-CA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: To become president of the United States.

LEE (voice-over): The presidential hopefuls split on the question of impeaching President Trump, exposing the divisions within the Democratic Party about the path forward after the Mueller report. Senator Kamala Harris joining those pushing for impeaching Trump.

HARRIS: I think we have very good reason to believe that there is an investigation that has been conducted, which has produced evidence that tells us that this President and his administration engaged in obstruction of justice. I believe Congress should take the steps toward impeachment.

LEE (voice-over): Senator Elizabeth Warren intensified her call to impeach, pushing back against top Democrats like House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, who say it isn't the appropriate time to move forward with proceedings.

SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: If any other human being in this country had done what's documented in the Mueller report, they would be arrested and put in jail.

LEE (voice-over): Other candidates, more cautious.

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I-VT), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: For the next year, year and a half, going right into the heart of the election, all that the Congress is talking about is impeaching Trump and Trump, Trump, Trump and Mueller, Mueller, Mueller. What I worry about is that works to Trump's advantage.

SEN. AMY KLOBUCHAR (D-MN), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The impeachment proceedings are up to the House. They're going to have to make that decision.

MAYOR PETE BUTTIGIEG (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I think he's made it pretty clear that he deserves impeachment. But I'll also going to leave it to the House and Senate to figure that out.

LEE (voice-over): Another big topic, education. Warren explained how she would pay for her ambitious education reform program, including a student loan relief plan eliminating up to $50,000 in student loan debt in households earning less than $100,000 a year, and free public college tuition, all at a price tag of $1.25 trillion over 10 years.

WARREN: If we put that 2 cent wealth tax in place on the 75,000 largest fortunes in this country, 2 cents, we can do universal child care for every baby, zero to five, universal pre-k, universal college, and knock back the student loan debt burden for 95 percent of our students, and still have nearly $1 trillion left over.

LEE (voice-over): But not all Democrats are backing Warren's proposal. Senator Amy Klobuchar calling the overhaul unrealistic.

KLOBUCHAR: You know what? I wish I could staple a free college diploma under every one of your chairs. I do. Don't look, it's not there. I wish I could do that but I have to be straight with you and tell you the truth.

[06:10:00] LEE (voice-over): Senator Bernie Sanders making headlines answering this question.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You have said that you believe that people with felony records should be allowed to vote while in prison. Does this mean that you would support enfranchising people like the Boston marathon bomber?

SANDERS: I think the right to vote is inherent to our democracy. Yes, even for terrible people.

LEE (voice-over): Harris responding to Sanders.

HARRIS: I think we should have that conversation.

LEE (voice-over): But Mayor Pete Buttigieg disagrees.

BUTTIGIEG: While incarcerated?

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Yes.

BUTTIGIEG: No, I don't think so.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LEE: Now, especially as we start heading into the summer, it is clear that these candidates are going to start facing more pressure to roll out their policy proposals and start putting more meat on the bones. Mayor Pete Buttigieg, just one of the candidates, who was asked about the fact that he doesn't have a lot of policy yet. Well, he said that he thinks it is very important to talk about values, even before you start getting into the policy minutia. And he says he is still new, and those policy proposals are still coming, John?

BERMAN: You can do both. Just saying. All right, MJ Lee for us in Manchester, New Hampshire. Appreciate you being there. We'll check in with you again in just a bit.

Joining us now, CNN Senior Political Analyst John Avlon. John, this was really interesting --

JOHN AVLON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes.

BERMAN: -- last night. I mean, good on us. Good on CNN for doing it, to hear all these people at length. What struck me was the policy, the differences that were really there on the tuition-free college but also on the prison, which I think was a little bit of a curve ball. I'm not sure Bernie Sanders was necessarily expecting that. But to say that even people in prison should vote, that's a marker. AVLON: That's a dramatic departure from any kind of debate we've been having about criminal justice reform. Florida just passing the right of felons to vote after they've left prison. That's becoming a consensus position within the Democratic Party and probably within the country. This marker that Bernie Sanders headed out is a reminder of why he is such an electoral risk for Democrats in a general election. He is being principled, he's calling it like he sees it, but it is far outside the mainstream debate right now.

BERMAN: And the two candidates who came on after him, they had to respond to Bernie Sanders. It was interesting in the different ways that they did it. Senator Kamala Harris said, well this is something we should study, which is a fairly common refrain from her.

AVLON: Yes.

BERMAN: And then Pete Buttigieg, the Mayor of South Bend, Indiana, he said, I actually -- I'm not so sure this is a good idea.

AVLON: He had a very crisp no. When clarifying, it was about people who were currently in prison, and got applause for that. Look, I think, you know, what we saw from the town halls last night is, first of all, people's comfort with policy. You get a deeper sense of their personality.

And Buttigieg done very well by being sort of decisive when asked, you know, key questions. Kamala Harris, to your point, has been taking a lot of sort of, let's study that further, maybe something she learned as an attorney general or in the Senate but plays less well on the stump. Elizabeth Warren embracing the policy edge and with real comfort and personal edge.

BERMAN: And she was also among the candidates last night and among the larger field, the very first to come out and say, impeachment now, yes.

AVLON: Yes.

BERMAN: That it's OK. And that is another area of difference between many of these candidates, with Warren saying, yes, definitely, Kamala Harris saying, yes, we should move in that direction. Buttigieg seemed to be saying, yes. But Bernie Sanders and Amy Klobuchar, no. Early is not yet or we need to be careful.

AVLON: If I'm saying that the candidate is typically most radical has been fairly conservative on that. Look, I think, you know, the long you've been in a Senate, the more you're going to be a realist about the prospects of actually convicting Donald Trump in the Senate. But as Elizabeth Warren said, you know, you don't get -- there is no exemption for political convenience in the Constitution, also in a plaza.

BERMAN: All right, John, stick around. A lot more to talk about over the course of the three hours here. Alisyn?

CAMEROTA: OK. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi had a huge conference call with her caucus last night and urged her fellow Democrats to focus on investigating the President, not impeaching him. And also, the investigations are starting. The Former White House Counsel Don McGahn has been subpoenaed.

CNN's Abby Philip is live at the White House. What's the latest there, Abby?

ABBY PHILIP, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Alisyn, this post- Mueller period is really all about what Democrats are going to do in the House of Representatives. Will they move forward with impeachment against President Trump?

And in that conference call yesterday with House members, Nancy Pelosi offered an alternative. Here's what she said, according to people who were in that meeting. "Whether it's articles of impeachments or investigations, it's the same obtaining of facts. We don't have to go to articles of impeachment to obtain facts, the presentation of facts."

So Pelosi is essentially telling her members that they don't have to go as far as impeachment to potentially get the same result. And already we've seen some of that investigation and efforts to obtain facts happening on the Hill. The House Oversight Committee had issued a subpoena against an individual, a White House staffer who was in charge of personal security, as part of their investigation into the security clearance process. But already the White House is pushing back on that.

They have directed Carl Kline not to comply with that subpoena, potentially setting up fight with that committee and potentially causing him to be caught in contempt of the committee as well.

[06:15:06] And already, the Mueller investigation is prompting some further investigation by the House, as well. There has been a subpoena issued to the Former White House Counsel, Don McGahn, whose testimony and whose notes were a huge part of the obstruction part of the Mueller report.

The White House hasn't yet responded on how they're going to deal with that subpoena threat, but it seems likely that it's going to produce yet another fight with the House over whether or not they're going to allow former and current officials to go in front of Congress and testify under oath, as members of the House seek to pick up exactly where Mueller left off. Alisyn?

CAMEROTA: Abby, thank you very much for all of that background.

Joining us now to discuss, we have CNN Political Analyst Rachael Bade, Congressional Reporter for "The Washington Post." She has these big stories this morning on what's happening on Capitol Hill and the White House. Rachael, great to have you.

So tell us about this mega conference call, with 172 Democratic members of Congress, that Nancy Pelosi had. It sounded like she was pumping the brakes last night on impeachment. She wants them to focus on investigations. But to what end? RACHAEL BADE, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: I think that's a great question and one that, you know, leadership right now is struggling to answer. But, yes, Pelosi was very gently pumping the brakes right now on impeachment, or she did last night. And she didn't come out and say specifically no impeachment ever. She didn't say, quote, he's not worth it, like she did before the Mueller report came out.

But she was clear that they're not going to be opening impeachment investigations or impeachment right now. They're going to just keep investigating and see where it leads. However, you know that after the Mueller report, if they don't do this now, they're very unlikely to do it in the future. So what she was doing was sort of dancing around the issue, pushing back on impeachment without actually saying it outright.

And this is causing, you know, some heart burn among some of her members who were on this conference call. Lawmakers are back in their districts right now. It's congressional recess, obviously. And on this call, you heard people saying, well, if we don't impeach the President, we're basically, you know, we are going against exactly what we should be doing as lawmakers, which is holding the executive branch accountable.

And there were some concern about future precedent, if we don't impeach him and hold him accountable, what does this mean for future presidential candidates who might try to, you know, work with the foreign adversary or welcome their help, interfering in our elections, or allowing a president to try to undercut an FBI investigation of him or her in the White House? And so, there's a lot of heart burn right now, and Democrats are very divided on this.

CAMEROTA: Well in terms of the investigation, it sounds like their first stop is Don McGahn. So the Former White House Counsel who the House Judiciary has now subpoenaed. You know, he sat with Mueller's team, as has been reported, for 30 hours. What do lawmakers think they will get out of him that isn't there in the report?

BADE: I think they're looking at him as a potential star witness. Obviously, Michael Cohen was their first stop. But if they brought Don McGahn to the Hill for a public hearing, you know, that's going to be blockbuster TV. And to hear him specifically lay out what the President asked him to do and, you know, why he declined to do it in terms of firing Mueller, and his concerns about obstruction of justice, they think that would be, you know, huge headlines.

And right now, you're seeing leadership, they have this sort of strategy when they investigate, they want to basically lay out Trump's dirty laundry. And that would be an example of where they can do that. I do think that there's a question of whether the White House will let McGahn do answer these questions and testify publicly.

As Abby was just noting, they basically are blocking a top security official in the White House who approved a number of security clearances that people were concerned about. They're not letting him talk even though he no longer works in the White House. So we could see Trump folks tell McGahn you're not allowed to answer these question, which again is just going to be another battle back and forth between the legislature and the executive branch.

CAMEROTA: The courts are going to be busy this season.

BADE: Yes.

CAMEROTA: Rachael Bade, thank you very much for all of the reporting.

BADE: Thank you.

BERMAN: All three branches at once busy because of all of these. It would be interesting to see because, you know, McGahn talked to Mueller. There's all the transcripts there. So what grounds do they keep him from speaking to Congress? There you go.

All right, the Democrats all on stage last night. We heard from five of them at length. New differences emerging. Which one of these candidates came out perhaps with the clearest, most concise message? We'll discuss next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[06:23:07] BERMAN: It was a night to remember in Manchester, New Hampshire.

CAMEROTA: Sure was.

BERMAN: Every Monday in Manchester is a big deal.

CAMEROTA: Not necessarily.

BERMAN: Not this big though.

CAMEROTA: No. I mean, huge, with big headlines, surprising headlines. It was really compelling TV.

BERMAN: Five Democrats on stage for a CNN marathon town hall or number one town halls. And each one of these Democrats trying to make a name for her or himself.

Let's bring in Rachel (ph) Buck, Abby Philip, and MJ Lee to discuss what happened last night. Rebecca, I want to start with you on this. I was struck -- and MJ brought this up at the end of her report -- because we heard new policy from Elizabeth Warren. We heard new policy from Senator Kamala Harris on guns. And Pete Buttigieg, the Mayor of South Bend, Indiana, was pressed by Anderson about why we haven't heard so much on policy from him. Listen to this exchange.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: Hard to compare where you stand to, you know, Elizabeth Warren, who is out here, even from your website. You just can't compare the policy positions. It's just hard.

BUTTIGIEG: Folks, some of that will come out tonight, and I look forward to that.

COOPER: OK.

BUTTIGIEG: Again I think I weighed in pretty specifically on a number of policy issues. We're now in the second week of my campaign being official, and we'll continue building our website accordingly, too.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: He said, Rebecca, also maybe now, it's more important to talk about values rather than minutia, which is the word I think he used there. How did he come out?

REBECCA BUCK, CNN POLITICAL REPORTER: Well, you know, I think he is right there, John. And although we in the press are going to obviously pressure these candidates to give us specifics on policy as much as they can, even at this early stage, I think we saw, for example, in the 2016 election, with the successive Donald Trump, that voters aren't necessarily looking for a series of policy papers. That isn't what wins over the hearts and minds of voters. You need to capture their imagination with something bigger. And so I think Pete Buttigieg understands that.

[06:25:00] Now, that's not to say that he can go this whole primary season without releasing policy papers, without coming out with specific proposals, but I think he is, you know, not necessarily behind some of these other candidates. You look at someone like Cory Booker, for example, who I've been covering for CNN, and he doesn't have a policy section on his website either, even though he is a United States senator and has been crafting policy for many years in that position. So, it's not that Buttigieg is necessarily behind, but certainly he's not staking himself out in that lane like Elizabeth Warren is as, you know, policy wonk.

CAMEROTA: And MJ, there were interesting topics that crapped up but people didn't expect new positions that we've heard. And so, one that has caught some steam came from Bernie Sanders about not only should ex-convicts be able to vote, which is debated, but whether current felons serving in prison should vote. So listen to what Bernie Sanders said about that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SANDERS: If somebody commits a serious crime, sexual assault, murder, they're going to be punished. They may be in jail for 10 years, 20 years, 50 years, their whole lives. That's what happens when you commit a serious crime. But I think the right to vote is inherent to our democracy. Yes, even for terrible people.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: And that ended up being a real sort of defining position that the other candidates had to respond to, MJ.

LEE: That's right. And after that moment, we, of course, had Pete Buttigieg, who was in the last hour of the five-hour marathon, asked about that question, as well. And he came out and said, no, he does not believe that people in that position should be able to vote. And I think we saw in those back-to-back answers, Bernie Sanders obviously taking a clear position. Pete Buttigieg taking a position on that, as well.

So the person that actually ended upstanding out in a different way was Kamala Harris. Because when she was asked that question, she actually said, that is a conversation to be had. And that is not by any means a bad answer to give when you don't have a yes or no answer to something. Of course, you're allowed to say and you are welcome to say, this is a discussion I want to have. I think this is a complicated discussion and a complicated topic.

However, I think the thing about the point that we are in, the primary right now, it is very early. The field is gigantic. When you're taking the national stage like this, I think you either want to have a moment, and I'm talking about a good moment, or you want to avoid a moment. And I'm talking about a negative moment.

And I think the number of times that Kamala Harris answered a question with some variation of, this is a conversation I want to have, or this is something I am thinking about, you string those together, and you can see how critics might say that Kamala Harris had an evening where, for a lot of questions or a number of questions at least, she actually didn't know exactly where she stood. And again, I want to emphasize, it is very early. It is OK, and certainly we expect candidates to not have answers to everything, but I do think that was an element of her performance that did stand out.

BERMAN: And that's in contrast, Abby, to Elizabeth Warren, who keeps on coming out with proposals and position. She took an, you know, very early position on impeachment, for instance, after the Mueller report. And now, she's out with this tuition-free college plan. And it has caused the other candidates to need to respond to it. Let's just play some of the sound on that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WARREN: You built that great business, or your ancestors did, using workers that all of us helped pay to educate. Good for you that you have now gotten this great fortune. But 2 cents, you got to pay something back. If we put that 2 cent wealth tax in place on the 75,000 largest fortunes in this country, 2 cents, we can do universal child care for every baby, zero to five, universal pre-k, universal college, and knock back the student loan debt burden for 95 percent of our students.

KLOBUCHAR: I wish I could staple a free college diploma under every one of your chairs. I do. Don't look, it's not there.

WARREN: To make college universally available, with free tuition and fees.

SANDERS: I have fought hard with some success to move toward making public colleges and universities tuition-free.

HARRIS: I do support debt-free college.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: And Pete Buttigieg said he likes the idea but maybe not for people making more money. But the point is, the other candidates there now responding to Elizabeth Warren, who didn't shy away for the, how do you pay for it question either, Abby. In fact, she seemed to want to talk about that.

PHILIP: Yes. You know, this is just an example of how it's not just Warren, it's a combination of the Bernie and Warren lane --