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Trump Opposes White House Aides Testifying to Congress; IRS Fails to Turn Over Trump's Tax Returns; Joe Biden to Announce 2020 Bid Tomorrow; Kushner: Mueller Probe Worse for U.S. Than Russia Interference. Aired 6-6:30a ET

Aired April 24, 2019 - 06:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JIM ACOSTA, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The president is in a fighting mood to push back on Capitol Hill.

[05:59:36] UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They're not allowing White House officials to testify. This is unprecedented. It will go to court.

RICK SANTORUM, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: This is harassment. They just want to play politics.

DAVE BRIGGS, CNN ANCHOR: Joe Biden set to launch his 2020 campaign tomorrow.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He has been the frontrunner in the polls from the beginning. He continues to be the frontrunner.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I haven't heard anything that suggests he understands where the progressive movement is going.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: This is NEW DAY with Alisyn Camerota and John Berman.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Goatee, we hardly knew ye.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Yes. You know, it was a brief engagement. A limited engagement.

CAMEROTA: Dave Briggs is going to be very disappointed.

BERMAN: I know.

CAMEROTA: As will legions of fans.

BERMAN: Tens of -- tens of fans --

CAMEROTA: Tens of fans.

BERMAN: -- who were supportive of the goatee will be disappointed this morning.

CAMEROTA: We want to welcome our viewers in the United States and around the world. This is NEW DAY..

BERMAN: It's a hairless welcome.

CAMEROTA: Gross.

BERMAN: Yes.

It's Tuesday, April 24, 6 a.m. here in New York. Feel free to weigh in on John's facial hair in a meme on Twitter.

BERMAN: Maybe my goatee will get its own Twitter account. That would be fantastic.

CAMEROTA: We've missed an opportunity.

BERMAN: That would be fantastic.

CAMEROTA: All right. Listen to this. In a new interview, President Trump says he opposes White House aides testifying to Congress, and already the White House is defying and stonewalling requests from House Democrats related to the Mueller report.

The White House is planning to fight a subpoena from the House Judiciary Committee for the former White House counsel, Don McGahn. President Trump tells "The Washington Post," quote, "There is no reason to go any further, and especially in Congress, where it's very partisan, obviously very partisan."

BERMAN: So no Don McGahn. No officials to testify on security clearances, and no tax returns either, at least not yet. The Treasury Department missed a deadline to turn over the president's tax returns to the House Ways and Means Committee. Treasury Secretary Steve Mnuchin says he will make his final decision whether to do so by May 6. You have to believe it's almost certainly a no. And that will make this a serious legal issue. It could be up to the courts to decide.

And all this is taking place on what we might call Biden eve. Former Vice President Joe Biden is expected to formally, finally, enter the Democratic race for president tomorrow. What immediate impact will this have on the contest? Much more on that ahead.

We want to begin, though, with CNN's Abby Phillip, live at the White House. No Don McGahn, the president saying out loud in an interview, Abby.

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, John, the president and his team are seeking to give absolutely no ground to Congress on this and several other inquiries being led by these House congressional committees.

The president and his aides view this as harassment, and they're seeking to prevent McGahn and any other aides from going before Congress and testifying under oath.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) PHILLIP (voice-over): President Trump warning he'll stonewall House Democrats, saying he doesn't want current or former aides testifying before congressional committees, Trump telling "The Washington Post," "There is no reason to go any further and especially in this Congress, where it's very partisan -- obviously very partisan."

The president's comments highlighting the White House's plan to limit Democratic investigations into the administration. A source familiar with the discussions telling CNN the White House may fight a subpoena for former White House counsel Don McGahn to testify before the House Judiciary Committee.

President Trump says aides like McGahn testified enough during Special Counsel Mueller's nearly two-year-long probe, saying, "I allowed my lawyers and all the people to go testify to Mueller. I was so transparent. They testified for so many hours. They have all that information that's been given."

Top Democrats firing back. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi slamming the White House for its conduct in the days since the redacted Mueller report was released.

REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA): We now see the administration engaged in stonewalling of the facts. It's an existential threat, this administration, to our democracy in terms of our Constitution.

PHILLIP: The Trump administration also instructing former White House personnel security director Carl Kline not to appear at a scheduled deposition. House Oversight Chairman Elijah Cummings saying he'll work with lawyers and committee members on scheduling a vote on contempt.

REP. ELIJAH CUMMINGS (D-MD): The American people said in the last election, "We want to hold Donald Trump accountable." It's impossible to hold him accountable if we don't get any information.

PHILLIP: House Democrats want to question Kline about why the White House overturned recommendations from career officials that would deny security clearances to certain Trump aide, like President Trump's son- in-law and senior advisor, Jared Kushner.

Kushner insisting that he's been thoroughly vetted.

JARED KUSHNER, TRUMP'S SON-IN-LAW AND SENIOR ADVISOR: I think that I've been fully vetted now after two years of -- 19 hours of testimony in different places.

PHILLIP: Kushner also falsely downplaying Russian interference in the 2016 election, despite the Mueller report calling it "sweeping and systematic."

KUSHNER: You look at what Russia did, you know, buying some Facebook ads to try to sow dissent and do it. And it's a terrible thing, but I think the investigations and all of the speculation that's happened for the last two years has had a much harsher impact on the democracy than a couple of Facebook ads. (END VIDEOTAPE)

PHILLIP: And on the prospect that McGahn might testify before Congress, the House Judiciary chairman, Jerry Nadler, pointed out -- and several legal experts have said similarly -- that the president's time to exert some kind of privilege over McGahn's testimony has passed, considering that they allowed McGahn to testify to the Mueller investigation as part of that probe. All that information, according to Nadler, is already out there. So there is no reason, in his view, for President Trump to stop McGahn now -- Alisyn.

[06:05:14] CAMEROTA: Good thing we have lots of smart lawyers coming up that we can ask about this. Abby, thank you very much.

The standoff over President Trump's tax returns escalating. Treasury Secretary Steve Mnuchin defying last night's deadline to turn over the president's tax returns but promising a, quote, "final action" by May 6.

CNN's Lauren Fox is live on Capitol Hill with more. So what's this? Why slide the deadline?

LAUREN FOX, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, Democratic aides believe that this is a stalling tactic. But like you said, the Treasury Department promising that they will have a final determination after they consult with the Justice Department about whether or not to turn over six years of the president's personal and business tax returns.

Now, yesterday Richard Neal said he planned to consult with his lawyers before announcing his next steps. But there are a few options on the table.

He could essentially just send another follow-up letter requesting the tax returns once again. He could also issue a subpoena. That's basically seen as just sort of a security blanket to move forward with the court process. It's not necessarily important to do that. But it is very important that they build their case moving forward. This is likely going to court.

And that's something that Richard Neal has been expecting for a long time. Back in -- back in November when I talked to him, he said that he expected that this would be a lengthy court battle.

But this is part of a broader story up here on Capitol Hill, like we heard from Abby earlier. You know, there is stonewalling happening, and as Democrats try to move forward with their investigations, they aren't getting a lot of answers. So you can expect that this tax fight will go to court. But perhaps some other fights over subpoenas could be moving there, as well -- John.

BERMAN: All right. Lauren Fox for us on Capitol Hill. Lauren, thank you very much.

Joining me now, CNN political analyst Jackie Kucinich. She is the Washington bureau chief for "The Daily Beast." And Jackie, this strikes me as the Judge Smails from "Caddyshack"

defense from the White House, which is "You'll get nothing and like it." They are going to give Congress nothing here: Fight on every front on every request. The question is, what do Democrats do about it?

JACKIE KUCINICH, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: I mean, what they're doing right now is trying to take them to court. But the problem is, for Democrats, is that this will take a while.

I mean, let's just look to what happened during the Obama administration, when Republicans wanted information about Operation Fast and Furious, that gun-running -- investigation. So, you know, that was a -- sorry, my brain just froze on me. So but that process included Eric Holder being held in contempt and didn't resolve until years later.

So we're at the beginning of a process that, you know, honestly, the administration holds a lot of the cards here, for -- especially, if you're a government employee and the government is paying your lawyers. You really don't have a lot of incentive to go testify in front of Congress if the White House tells you not to.

BERMAN: You can delay this.

KUCINICH: Delay, delay.

BERMAN: And absolutely it will go to the courts. And some of these questions could go all the way to the Supreme Court. We're not lawyers, Jackie, but we do know politics. And we know that lately, this court has seemed to be supportive of the president on some issues. And it does lean conservative now.

KUCINICH: It certainly does. And I think the White House is banking on that. I mean, look at Mnuchin's letter and how similarly the issues that he raised were to what Trump's lawyers raised in their process against Cummings, trying to block their subpoena of Trump's accounting firm.

They're really trying to talk about the separation of powers and whether Congress is really trying to go beyond their authority here. So it's very clear the track that we're headed on. And frankly, it ends in the courts.

BERMAN: Now, you did bring up Fast and Furious --

KUCINICH: Yes.

BERMAN: -- where the Obama administration was able to delay, to some extent, cooperation with Republicans in Congress.

However, there is some rich irony here when the president complains about overly partisan congressional hearings. Right? I mean, we all lived through hearings where Republicans tried to bring as many Democrats before them to testify as possible, and they did for hours and hours and hours. All of a sudden. crying foul on partisan hearings seems a little disingenuous from the White House.

KUCINICH: But it depends on who's the target. Right? I mean, we've -- you see this, especially when you have a divided Congress, particularly when you're talking about the Oversight Committee.

When there's an adversarial relationship between the Oversight Committee and the White House, you do hear a lot of these cries of partisanship. Now -- but it really does, especially when you're talking about the tax return issue.

This is something that hasn't been broached before. This is something that has never gone -- this particular piece of IRS law has never been tested before in the courts, and that's because presidents have released their tax returns. So part of this is a problem of the president's own making from the get-go

BERMAN: All right. Jackie Kucinich with us in Washington. Jackie, thank you very much.

KUCINICH: Thanks, John.

BERMAN: Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: All right. More 2020 news. CNN has learned that former Vice President Joe Biden will formerly [SIC] -- formally enter the 2020 presidential race tomorrow, becoming the 20th Democrat to join the crowded field. CNN's Arlette Saenz is live in Washington with the details of his announcement plan. The worst kept secret in Washington, Arlette.

ARLETTE SAENZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Alisyn, it sure was. And now after months of suspense, Joe Biden's day is almost here. Sources that I've talked to who are part of that planning process tell me that he's going to make his formal announcement tomorrow in an online video.

And then shortly after next week on Monday, we're going to see him at his first campaign event, which is going to be an event over in Pittsburgh, in Pennsylvania, a Rust Belt state that Democrats want to try to bring back over to the blue column in 2020.

And shortly after that in the coming weeks, he's going to hit all of those early states: Iowa, South Carolina and New Hampshire. So we're seeing this rollout starting to take place over the course of the next few weeks.

And Biden, you'll have to remember, this isn't his first run for the White House. He ran back in 1987 and also in 2008. Both of those campaigns went pretty poorly for him. So he knows what it's like to run at this high level of campaign. And his team has just been working over the past few months, trying to make sure that they've dotted all their "I's" and crossed all their "T's" before he jumps into the race.

And one other thing to know on Joe Biden is that he will be among the oldest candidates running for president. The only other Democratic primary contender that's older than him is Bernie Sanders. And right now, Joe Biden is 76. On inauguration day, if he's elected, he would be 78, making him the oldest person to serve as president if he's elected -- Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: All right. Well, I mean, but quite active. So we will see what the rollout looks like tomorrow. Arlette, thank you very much for previewing it for us -- John.

BERMAN: I'm really curious what the other candidates do and how quickly they do it with Joe Biden in the race. Does it become several weeks of responding to Joe Biden and reacting to how he enters? We will see soon, finally, after all the dribs and drabs.

All right. One of the president's top advisers is trying to dismiss the extent of Russian interference in the 2016 election. He also happens to be the president's son-in-law. The really stunning comments Kushner made that has Washington buzzing. That is next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[06:16:23] CAMEROTA: President Trump's senior adviser and son-in-law, Jared Kushner, is trying to rewrite history about Russian interference in the 2016 election.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KUSHNER: Quite frankly, the whole thing is just a big distraction for the country. And you look at, you know, what Russia did, buying some Facebook ads to try to sow dissent and do it; and it's a terrible thing. But I think the investigations and all of the speculation that's happened for the last two years has had a much harsher impact on the democracy than a couple of Facebook ads.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: Let's bring in John Avlon, CNN senior political analyst; Alex Burns, national political correspondent for the "New York Times" and CNN political analyst; and M.J. Lee, CNN political correspondent.

Alex, Jared Kushner is conveniently omitting some things about Russian interference. It was more than just buying a few Facebook ads. There were all sorts of secret meetings between Russians and Trump campaign people. He didn't mention that.

I mean, the idea that he's reframing this as that that's how they tried to dance around the edges of the election. Here's what Robert Mueller says. "The Russian government interfered in the 2016 presidential election in sweeping and systematic fashion." So --

BERMAN: And do you know what? And that's the second paragraph. I know that it's a 448-page report.

CAMEROTA: I'm going to read the whole thing right now.

BERMAN: But that's page one, paragraph two. So Jared didn't have to get very far to get to that statement. That's right, yes.

CAMEROTA: Does he -- What is it that, that he just said?

ALEX BURNS, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Look, and it's not just Facebook ads. It's not just even meetings with the Trump officials, right?

This was aggressive hacking of Democratic campaigns, party committees, leaders in the party, and their humiliation by having that information released publicly.

Look, this is one more episode in this multi-year effort by the president and his closest associates to essentially treat as trivial what was far from trivial in the 2016 campaign.

And it's part of this -- I think it's something that happens, really, just on a visceral level with the president and members of his family and the closest people in on that campaign where they try to treat any discussion of what actually happened with Russia in that election as attack -- as an attack on President Trump's legitimacy.

You don't have to see it that way. Right? It's entirely possible you hear a lot of serious Republicans talk about Russia as an important issue while totally supporting the president 1,000 percent. That's not what we hear from Jared Kushner.

JOHN AVLON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: They still don't get it. And it's willful ignorance.

The president of Trumplandia, in that cozy little bubble where everything is about Donald Trump, can't see -- and I think speaks for the administration -- that the primary issue is that America was attacked by a foreign adversary. The elections were undercut.

And so it's not about a couple of Facebook ads. And it's the first statement after the Mueller report details, in sweeping and detailed fashion, the extent to which they tried to meddle in their elections on Donald Trump's behalf, not simply sowing the seeds of discord.

So it is -- it is -- it shows, really, contempt for the facts and a total willful unwillingness to get it. They're going to put their own interests ahead of the national interest.

BERMAN: It was interesting to hear. I mean, that wasn't no obstruction, no collusion. And that was none of this matters. Even if Russia did -- even if Russia did what Robert Mueller says that they did, I don't care.

BERMAN: Yes, yes. Because you know what? Because we're in the West Wing, and you're not.

CAMEROTA: I mean, M.J., I'm reminded of what one of the experts, one of the climate scientists said about Donald Trump and -- and his -- the people around him not believing in climate change. It doesn't matter if they don't believe in it. It doesn't matter if they don't believe that -- in Russian interference. It doesn't matter if they call it a hoax. It's still happening.

M.J. LEE, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, and I think it just does a huge disservice to the country. And anyone who might be tuning in and may not necessarily be paying as close attention. Not everyone across the country has actually read the full report. They're not going to take the time to do that.

[06:20:13] So I think when you have someone in Jared Kushner's position who is a senior member of the administration going out there and saying things that are simply not true about the scope of the Russian meddling and the interference, especially when it comes to something that everyone understands, something like Facebook, right?

When they hear someone like him, "It was just a couple of ads. That's what it was," there are going to -- there is going to be some segment of the population that actually believes that is what happened.

BERMAN: All right. We have breaking 2020 news.

CAMEROTA: Oh, yes. Tell -- lay it on us.

BERMAN: In the sense that we now know that Joe Biden will enter the Democratic race officially tomorrow.

CAMEROTA: Wait, what?

BERMAN: I know.

AVLON: Who?

BERMAN: No one knew this was going to happen.

Let me put up on the screen the latest poll -- it came out just yesterday -- from Monmouth. And the reason this is interesting, among other things, is Joe Biden has been leading in every poll. So now the guy who is leading in national polls will be an actual candidate.

CAMEROTA: He's actually getting into the race.

BERMAN: He's actually getting in.

And Alex, who I noticed, by the way, you have a lovely beard. And no one's --

BURNS: This is my -- yes, this is my Joe Biden decision playoff beard.

CAMEROTA: So you keep it if he gets in, and you were going to shave it if he didn't?

BURNS: I thought it would be gone by the end of January.

BERMAN: I know. Well, look --

AVLON: Does it become mutton chops if a certain decision goes that way?

BERMAN: At least one of us gets to have a beard, which is nice for you. AVLON: Me, too, clearly.

BERMAN: So -- so talk to me about the rollout. It's the video and then not a whole lot else.

BERMAN: There's a video tomorrow. There's expected to be a fundraiser in Philadelphia tomorrow, though that has not been 100 percent confirmed.

And then, yes, a couple of quieter days. It's an unusual way to roll out a presidential campaign. It makes you wonder, will there actually be nothing between Friday and Monday; or, you know, will there even be something as casual as the vice president, former second lady, walk down the driveway and talk to the cameras or something like that? I'm purely speculating.

BERMAN: You would think something. I mean, look, Beto O'Rourke didn't have anything on his schedule when he announced, and he ended up on a -- you know, on a countertop in Iowa.

BURNS: Right. And look, I think we look at the polling numbers that you just -- that we just put up on the screen. And this is the moment where the idea of Joe Biden collides with the reality of Joe Biden. Right? That we know a lot of people, myself included, expected those numbers to dip over the last six months as other candidates got into the race and Democrats saw, look, you have all these options.

His numbers have held up pretty well. And the question now is can Joe Biden's numbers survive Joe Biden, the reality of how he will perform as a candidate?

CAMEROTA: This is going to be so interesting, John. It's just going to be so interesting to see how the dynamic changes when Joe Biden is in.

AVLON: Sure. There's always the danger your first day is your best day. That said, I've got to say, putting out the video announcement and then kicking a rally until, you know, two, three, four days later is not a sign of confidence.

In politics, history shows very clearly your best defense is a good offense. And if you're trying not to lose, that's when you usually lose. And it seems to me that you have a video announcement, you follow it with a big rally. Union hall, that makes a lot more sense than traipsing off to a fundraiser and then laying low for a couple days.

BERMAN: It does seem this year what people are doing, though, is trying to get a couple bites of the apple, where they're trying to generate the buzz to make the official announcement, that maybe he gets a separate set of coverage when you have the official announcement.

M.J., you were just up in New Hampshire for the marathon five town halls that CNN did, and it was fascinating. And one of the most interesting things to come of it was Senator Kamala Harris, who in the course of several questions, occasionally hedged on her answers and said, "Well, we need to study this."

And one of the issues where she said, "We need to study it" on was Bernie Sanders coming out and saying that people in prison, felons in prison, including murderers, should have the right to vote.

And Senator Harris, during the CNN town hall, said, "This is something we should study. I'm open to it."

Well, within 24 hours she had a new, different answer. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. KAMALA HARRIS (D-CA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We, right now, have got a lot of work to do with the people in our country who have served their time and have been prohibited from voting.

But, you know, do I think that people who commit murder, people who are terrorists should be deprived of their rights? Yes, I do. I'm a prosecutor. I believe that, in terms of there has to be serious consequence for the most extreme types of crimes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: That's a different answer.

LEE: It is. I think calling this even a clarification would be too generous. I mean, she has somehow managed to say two pretty different things in the course of just 24 hours, initially saying on our town hall stage she is open to this idea that Bernie Sanders said yes to, the idea that felons and the worst kinds of criminals being able to vote while they are in prison. That she's open to - open to having a conversation about it.

And now this clarification or whatever you want to call it is that, because she is a prosecutor, the value that she brings into this conversation is that, yes, I absolutely do believe that certain rights should be taken away for people like this.

I mean, this is going to be a very long campaign for Kamala Harris if, after every sort of major stance that she takes that appears to be relatively new, she has to then the next day hedge it a little bit, or take it back or make a clarification.

[06:25:11] CAMEROTA: But I'm just curious. Why is that one a tough one? She is a former prosecutor. Generally, they're more -- a little bit more hardline than the Bernie Sanders of the world. Why is that one a tough one?

BURNS: I think she has felt a lot of pressure in this race to not fully embrace her identity as a prosecutor. And I think we've seen over and over in presidential campaigns, certainly not just in this one, certainly not just with Senator Harris, that when you start trying to revise the way you have presented yourself your entire career, that your instincts can get a little bit off; and it can just get very personally uncomfortable. LEE: And the other dynamic, of course, is that there are other candidates that she might feel like are taking positions that are more to the left of her. I mean, especially when you're in a situation where there are back-to-back town halls; and the candidate before you is Bernie Sanders, having taken this position. You have to think that that could be the kind of thing that gets in her head.

CAMEROTA: Still, we should -- I think we should say that the numbers, the ratings for her portion of that town hall were, again, very high. She -- people are very interested in what she has to say and learning about her.

BERMAN: That's a good point. In her first town hall on CNN, blockbuster numbers.

CAMEROTA: Right. Record-breaking.

BERMAN: People are watching what she says and listening very carefully.

All right, guys. Thank you.

CAMEROTA: Thank you all very much.

We do have breaking news for you right now in the terror attacks in Sri Lanka. The new details that are fueling fears of more bombings, next.

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