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New Day

Sen. Mike Lee (R-UT) is Interviewed about Russian Interference and His New Book; Boeing Earnings Fall in First Quarter; Buttigieg Under Scrutiny with Black Voters; Osundairo Brothers File Defamation Lawsuit. Aired 8:30-9a ET

Aired April 24, 2019 - 08:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:30:00] DAN COATS, DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE (January 29, 2019): As an opportunity to advance their interests. We expect them to refine their capabilities and ad new tactics as they learn from each other's experiences and efforts in previous elections.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: All right, joining us now to talk about this and more, we have Republican Senator Mike Lee. He's a member of the Senate Judiciary Committee and the author of a new book, "Our Lost Declaration: America's Fight against Tyranny from King George to the Deep State."

Senator, great to have you here.

SEN. MIKE LEE (R-UT): Thank you.

CAMEROTA: Why can't the president be told about Russian interference?

LEE: I don't know, but if there's one thing that's going to guarantees this does get discussed with the president, it's this article and what was behind it.

It doesn't make a lot of sense to me that you'd want to keep this away from the president. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me that we weren't focused on this back during the Obama administration when apparently they became aware of meddling and interference. And I hope they'll address it now.

CAMEROTA: Do you have any sense that they will address it now given that the chief of staff doesn't' want the Homeland Security secretary even bring it up with the president?

LEE: Well, that's why I say, I think this will guarantee it gets brought to the forefront now. This isn't going to escape the notice of the president.

CAMEROTA: But, I mean, I understand. I mean I hear what you're saying, the president reads "The New York Times," he watches obviously cable morning shows, our included.

But does it trouble you that the president -- that the chief of staff thinks the president doesn't want to hear anything like this?

LEE: Look, I don't want to armchair quarterback the White House chief of staff. He's got his own set of issues to deal with and I don't know the whole context of that conversation. It may well be that what he was saying was, let's find the right time and place and manner in which to bring that up. And I suspect that that's the case. If it is the case, that's not terribly troubling.

CAMEROTA: Hearing DNI Coats say that the Russians are refining their methods to do it again in 2020, does it worry you?

LEE: Oh, absolutely. It bothers me that they're doing this. I -- you know, my colleague, Mitt Romney, when he ran for president in 2012 started warning that we needed to take Russia more seriously, that they did not mean us well. I think we are behind schedule on this, and I would like to see us catch up.

CAMEROTA: And do you think the White House is behind schedule, and taking them seriously enough right now?

LEE: I -- I think the White House is going to engage on this, and I expect them to do so.

CAMEROTA: The Mueller report. Were you troubled by what you read in there?

LEE: Look, this thing took two years. And after two years, they came up with not a scintilla of evidence of any type of collusion. And they concluded that there was no basis for bringing a prosecution against the president. And there were things in there that I found unsettling, things that are unflattering.

CAMEROTA: Such as? What did you find unflattering?

LEE: Things that the president perhaps planned to do, discussed doing with White House staff, but they worked out well. The process worked as it should. There were some bold, brave staffers who properly advised their boss. This is very often how a political office works. When the boss comes up with an idea, if it's a bad idea, the staff will push back on it. And that's how it should work.

CAMEROTA: Yes, except that some of them were criminal ideas. The obstruction -- you're referring to obstruction of justice. They found 11 different instances where the president was asking people to obstruct justice, telling them to lie to investigators, telling them -- asking them to fire the investigators. That's different than just a bad idea.

LEE: Unflattering to be sure. Not his best moment to be sure. But it never occurred. And I think we should be grateful for that.

CAMEROTA: Well, sure, but are you grateful that there are people keeping the president from his worst impulses or do you wish that the president didn't try to have those impulses?

LEE: Look, human beings run government. If -- if we were angels, we wouldn't have need of government. If we had access to angels to run out government we wouldn't have need of all these rules to keep things moving. I think it's important for us to remember regardless of our political stripe, that at any given moment the person occupying the White House, Republican or Democratic or something else, is a human being. That's why we have laws. That's why we have checks and balances.

CAMEROTA: Your colleague from Utah, Senator Mitt Romney, said he was sickened by what he read in there.

LEE: I'm sure he was. Again, Mitt Romney's been warning against this since 2012. I wish the Obama administration had done more to heed those warnings. Either starting in 2012 when they were raised by Senator Romney, or in 2016 when the Obama administration itself acknowledged that there was some meddling going on by the Russian government. I wish they had taken action.

CAMEROTA: Right. And do you wish the Trump White House was doing more to take action?

LEE: Sure. Now, to be clear, I don't know what they are doing, but I hope wherever they're doing it will increase. And I hope they'll be affective in counteracting it.

CAMEROTA: The White House says it doesn't want to cooperate with any subpoenas that are being issued by your committees or any of the committees where, as you know, there are still lawmakers who are trying to do a deeper dive and investigate more. Are you comfortable with the White House stonewalling on this?

LEE: This is not unusual. Not only is it not unheard of, it is very common for there to be a war between the legislative branch issuing subpoenas and the executive branch. We saw it in the Obama administration, we've seen it in basically every administration where this has come up. It's not surprising.

CAMEROTA: In your book, you outline abuse of what you call tyrannical power, King George trying to go around colonial legislatures, basically abuses of power. Do you think it's applicable to today? Do you think there is federal abuses of power today?

[08:35:01] LEE: Without question there are federal abuses of power. It's one of the reasons I wrote "Our Lost Declaration."

Look, we have, over the last 80 years, seen power taken away from the American people in two steps. It's been transferred from the state and local level to Washington. Within Washington, it's been handed over by unelected -- by elected lawmakers to unelected, unaccountable bureaucrats.

Those bureaucrats, in many instances, exercise political power that is insulated from the political process. You can't fire those in the deep state. You can't fire executive branch agencies that make most of our law these days. That ought to trouble any American who's concerned about accountable government.

CAMEROTA: So you think it's the deep state that is abusing the power.

Do you think that the president's end run around Congress, of which you're a member, is any abuse of power?

LEE: I actually think Congress is the problem. So let me explain what I mean by that.

Congress is the entity much more than the people within the executive branch agencies that I'm worried about. Congress is the entity that has empowered them. They can't do anything without an act of Congress. Congress has chosen not to make law, instead to delegate it to unelected, unaccountable people. This separates the American people from those who govern them. Those who write their laws, those who enforce the laws are the same people. That's not only something that can lead to tyranny, it's something that has been described by political philosophers for hundreds of years as the definition of tyranny itself.

CAMEROTA: Why do you seem so willing to give President Trump a pass on going around the process of involving Congress?

LEE: He's not the problem. The problem is Congress. The problem is that Congress has refused to make laws. The problem is that Congress has been shielding itself from political accountability by handing it off to others who are themselves beyond review by the American people.

You can fire your representative every two years. You can fire one- thirds of the U.S. senators every two years. You can't ever fire executive branch bureaucrats. That is the focus of "Our Lost Declaration" and it's why the Declaration of Independence needs to be remembered right now. Because it's applicable now. Because many of the things that we're dealing with now are reminiscent of what caused the American Revolution.

CAMEROTA: You can read more about it in "Our Lost Declaration."

Senator Mike Lee, thanks so much for being here in studio with us.

LEE: Thank you.

CAMEROTA: John.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: All right, an old controversy over secret police tapes could come back to haunt Mayor Pete Buttigieg in his run for president. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:40:43] BERMAN: It is time for "CNN Business Now."

Boeing's earnings down sharply in the first quarter. Perhaps not surprising after the grounding of their 737 Max jets.

CNN business correspondent Alison Kosik joins us now with more.

ALISON KOSIK, CNN BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: Good morning to both of you. Now, we just found out the financial impact on Boeing in the first quarter because of the Max 737 crisis. And here's what we found out. Earnings fell 21 percent in the first three months of the year with revenue coming in of $22.9 billion.

Now, before the fatal Ethiopian Airlines crash that grounded the 737 Max jets and halted deliveries, the grounding of the Max jet has actually cost Boeing more than $1 billion. The company also announcing it's pulling its full-year guidance for the year because of all this uncertainty of the 737 Max aircraft.

Now, we're going to see how Boeing's result will impact Wall Street in less than an hour. Futures are pointing to small gains before the opening bell.

Yesterday, though, was a record-breaking day as stocks climbed past their all-time highs. The S&P 500 reaching 2,933, breaking its September high. The Nasdaq hitting 8,120, beating the all-time best close that it hit in August. The Dow finishing the day 145 points higher. That index now is less than 1 percent away from a fresh record high.

You look at last year, the S&P, the Dow, both recorded their worst December ever. Since then, stocks have certainly been on a tear. The S&P 500 is up 17 percent this year. The Nasdaq is up 22 percent. The Dow has climbed 14 percent. Certainly a huge turnaround from the big volatility that we saw in December.

CAMEROTA: Alison, thank you.

KOSIK: You got it.

CAMEROTA: Thanks so much.

All right, so listen to this story.

As South Bend Mayor Pete Buttigieg rises in the polls, his record with black voters is coming under scrutiny. At a CNN town hall Monday night, Buttigieg was confronted about firing his city's first black police chief seven years ago and he was also pressed about secretly recorded police tape that the South Bend city council is pushing to make public.

CNN's Drew Griffin has more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DREW GRIFFIN, CNN SENIOR INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Shortly after Pete Buttigieg became mayor of South Bend, Indiana, he became embroiled in a controversy he still tried to explain seven years later.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What are on the secret tapes regarding the demotions of South Bend's black police chief, Darryl Boykins?

MAYOR PETE BUTTIGIEG (D-IL), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: So the answer is, I don't know.

GRIFFIN: The secret tapes are phone conversation between four white officers, including a top detective, recorded by an internal police department system. The officers made derogatory racial slurs, including comments about the city's first black police chief. That's according to a lawsuit by one of the only people who's heard those recordings. Once Chief Darryl Boykins heard about the conversation in 2011, he asked the recordings continue. Buttigieg forced him to resign because of the way the chief handled the situation, causing an uproar in a time of racial tension in South Bend and across the country.

MICHAEL PATTON, NAACP SOUTH BEND BRANCH PRESIDENT: The Trayvon Martin situation had just happened in February. Chief Boykins' situation happens in, I believe, March of that same year, 2012. And our nation is infuriated. Our city -- the people in our city, especially African- Americans, are infuriated. It just raised a lot of questions and I think as well created some mistrust behind a lot of different things happening at the same time.

GRIFFIN: Buttigieg later re-hired, then demoted the chief. The controversy led to an extremely complicated chain of lawsuits that have gone on for years now with litigants and their lawyers prevented from speaking about what's on those tapes. The former police chief's attorney has seen a summary of the recordings and says what's alleged could raise questions about white cops interacting with black suspects.

TOM DIZON, ATTORNEY FOR FORMER SOUTH BEND POLICE CHIEF: If we've got the head of our metro homicide unit is dropping racial epithets, you know, how long is it going to be before the Innocence Project comes in here and starts looking up -- looking at all these prior convictions?

GRIFFIN: The lawyer for the officers who were recorded say there's nothing racist on the tapes, but continues to fight their release.

Regina Williams-Preston is on the city council and is taking her own city to court demanding once and for all the tapes be played.

REGINA WILLIAMS-PRESTON, SOUTH BEND CITY COUNCIL: This mystery around these tapes that's been looming over the community for so many years, it's like a cloud because every time there's some kind of incident, you know, it just kind of rips the band aide off and brings us back to the question, is there clear evidence of some sort of racism and bias within our police department?

[08:45:20] GRIFFIN: As for the mayor, he says he has not heard the tapes and will not release them without a court's decision because he doesn't want to violate wire tape laws, which leaves him trying to explain his actions as he campaigns for president.

BUTTIGIEG: I was, frankly, a little bit slow to understand just how many anguish underlay the community's response to this because for people in the community it wasn't just about whether we were right or wrong to be concerned about the Federal Wiretap Act, it was about whether communities of color could trust that police departments had their best interests at heart.

GRIFFIN: An Indiana superior court judge has just ruled South Bend's city council can continue its lawsuit seeking to make the tapes public.

Drew Griffin, CNN, South Bend, Indiana.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BERMAN: All right, the two brothers who say Jussie Smollett hired them to stage a hate crime attack are now suing Smollett's legal team. Do they have a case?

CAMEROTA: But, first, a quick programing note. Join W. Kamau Bell as he shines a light on the people creating change, fighting for justice and making a difference. The new season of "UNITED SHADES OF AMERICA" debuts Sunday night, 10:00 p.m., on CNN.

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BERMAN: I am so excited it's back.

CAMEROTA: Me too.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:50:35] CAMEROTA: The two brothers who say they were hired by Jussie Smollett to stage a hate crime have now filed a federal defamation lawsuit against Smollett's lawyers. Smollett was charged, you'll remember, with making up the whole story before prosecutors suddenly dropped all charges against him last month. The Osundairo brothers say their reputations have suffered to the point where they cannot even make money.

Joining us to talk about all of this is criminal defense attorney Joey Jackson and former New York City prosecutor Paul Callan. Both are CNN legal analyst.

OK, so, Paul, since all the charges were dropped against Jussie Smollett, he blamed them for the attack. And since they were granted immunity and they blame him for the attack, how are any of us ever supposed to know what really happened that night?

PAUL CALLAN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, that's a -- that's a great question because this -- and this lawsuit may ultimately answer the question because to prove this lawsuit, the Osundairo brothers are going to haul Mark Geragos into court and we'll have a complete discussion of many aspects of the crime.

CAMEROTA: So, wait a second, they're hauling Mark Geragos in, who's Jussie Smollett's lawyer, because they say that he has bad-mouthed them basically?

CALLAN: Yes, and it's a ridiculous claim. It's a completely ridiculous claim in a lot of respects because the Osundairo brothers, by their own admission, by their own testimony, presumably before the grand jury, admitted that they participated in this crime. A crime that defrauded the citizens of Chicago. And now they're saying, well, when Mark Geragos calls us names at a press conference, we have been defamed. I mean they're crooks. It's just a category -- it's just, how do you categorize them as crooks, not --

JOEY JACKSON, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Not -- not so fast.

CALLAN: Well --

JACKSON: And be careful with the crook, because that could subject you to defamation, OK?

BERMAN: Yes, we've got a phone call for you on line two, Paul Callan.

CALLAN: OK, there we go. There we go.

JACKSON: So, look, here's the issue. I think -- I'm not a big fan of suing lawyers, obviously. Certainly not for suing lawyers for defamatory comments, that are comments that impugn your reputation, but I do think we have a responsibility, and let's talk about what that is.

The fact is, is that even -- this is not something they're alleging in the complaint that was defamation during the course of advocacy. That's different. In the event that I make statements before a court or making statements advancing my client's interest, then it's afforded some measure of protection, it's afforded some type of privilege.

When the matter is over and I'm maintaining my innocence and you have advocates as lawyers who are spreading information regarding your sexual orientation, regarding the nature of who you are, what you do, the fact that you're on steroids or what have you, that's -- that draws the line. And, therefore, I think even though an attorney, you have a responsibility to speak truth. And if it's not truth and if it's -- it's a falsehood, that's not opinion, then it becomes problematic and defamatory.

BERMAN: Can I ask one question, though, here, Callan?

CALLAN: Yes.

BERMAN: Truth is an issue here because a lawyer's responsibility is to the client. So if Jussie Smollett is telling Geragos and others a certain thing, doesn't he have the right, and in some cases the duty, to believe them?

CALLAN: Well, absolutely. And you raise a very, very legitimate point there.

BERMAN: Thank you very much.

CALLAN: Geragos has a way with words. I mean this is a guy who probably, if he was practicing law in the 1800s, would have categorized Jack the Ripper as a knife salesman. And he -- instead of, you know, accepting the victory in the case, he goes out and he gives this press conference, setting off the whole thing.

But if Smollett told Geragos, I didn't do it, I'm innocent, he, Geragos, has the right to repeat that publicly and not be guilty of a defamatory comment.

JACKSON: However --

CALLAN: And let me just add one other thing with respect to it. There are two parts to a defamation lawsuit. One, you have to prove that a false statement was made. But, two, you have to prove that you were damaged by it.

CAMEROTA: That's what they're saying, that they can't get work.

CALLAN: Well, they can't get work. These three clowns defrauded the city of Chicago out of $130,000, at least, worth of police resources with this phony crime that they all committed together. And to think that a jury's going to --

CAMEROTA: But how do you know that, Paul?

CALLAN: Well, I know that because the district attorney --

CAMEROTA: (INAUDIBLE) --

CALLAN: The district attorney has said that Smollett was in fact guilty, not exonerated of the crime, but he was just being treated like other people were. And there have been statements by the police and a lot of evidence as well. So I don't think there's any questions all three of them conspired to commit this crime.

JACKSON: So Paul said clown, and that's not a bad thing because that's an opinion.

BERMAN: Right.

JACKSON: And that would be -- that would be protected and therefore it's not defamatory.

But there's a distinction between giving a press conference and denying what your clients did or otherwise saying your client did something that was not on them and being defamatory and going after and saying things that are not true. And that's not protected. And so therein lies the issue.

[08:55:03] The issue is, there's a distinction between fair advocacy and simply having a press conference and at that press conference backing people off your client, advocating on your client's behalf and then -- and then between excorticating the other side. And that's where we draw the line.

CALLAN: But, Joey, one quick thing on damages, because there are two parts to the lawsuit. One, liability, two, I was damaged by it. These three individuals defrauded the city of Chicago by staging a phony crime. You think they have now the right to go into court and make money off of it by suing Geragos? That strikes me as an injustice and a sensible judge will throw this ridiculous lawsuit out of court.

JACKSON: What strikes me as an injustice is when people go after you and say things that are not true. And irrespective of the underlying incident, you have to look at the facts that are imputed upon you. And when you go after someone's sexual orientation and when you go after someone's steroid use and you otherwise impair their ability to make a living, that's a problem.

CALLAN: You're too sensitive. You're too sensitive, Joey. You're way too sensitive.

JACKSON: Only with you.

CAMEROTA: Can't argue with this legal logic.

Thank you, gentlemen.

BERMAN: I was going to say, this was --

JACKSON: Thank you.

BERMAN: Just like a freshmen law school class I did not attend.

CAMEROTA: That's right. That's right.

BERMAN: Right there.

CAMEROTA: Really good.

JACKSON: You had other things.

BERMAN: Thank you very much.

CAMEROTA: Thank you, guys.

JACKSON: Always.

CAMEROTA: All right, so there was this new report that the president does not want to hear about the -- any upcoming Russian attacks on the U.S. election system. All the implications of that, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:00:03] JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: A good and busy and newsy Wednesday morning to you. I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: That it is.

END