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President Trump Vows To Fight "All" Subpoenas; Rep. Katherine Clark (D-MA) On President Trump's Stonewalling; Joe Biden Announces Run For President. Aired 7:30-8a ET

Aired April 25, 2019 - 07:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[07:30:00] NIA MALIKA-HENDERSON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL REPORTER: -- think that should happen. So I don't know why that would be a bad thing for the Trump administration.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: I also have to say, David Chalian, the president is making the excuse for not cooperating on issues surrounding Russia and obstruction -- well, because the Mueller report already did it. Well, the Mueller report explicitly says that Congress is the one that gets to decide on these issues and should decide on these issues.

DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: Right. I mean, he, of course, is saying but wait, wait, wait -- Bill Barr exonerated me from all things obstruction of justice even if Bob Mueller did not, so it's done.

But you're right to point that out. It is in black and white in Bob Mueller's report, sort of pointing the evidence collected and detailed for Congress to take a look at, preserving information for other future perhaps legal action down the road.

But I do think politically, this stonewalling is -- as Nia was getting at, I do think Donald Trump relishes the fight so much and we know the strategy going into his reelection campaign is not about broadening, it is about igniting the base. That has been his entire political strategy for the duration of his presidency. And so, taking on the Democrats like this serves that strategy.

DAVID GREGORY, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Also -- you know, he's not doing seminars at Mar-a-Lago on separation of powers.

CHALIAN: Right.

GREGORY: He doesn't really care. What he sees is --

BERMAN: But he doesn't understand. I can be clear about this. He doesn't understand the separation of powers because yesterday he's saying the Supreme Court is going to weigh in on him --

GREGORY: Right.

DAVID AXELROD, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, CNN HOST, "THE AXE FILES": Right. BERMAN: -- which it doesn't, and can't.

GREGORY: Exactly, but he's pushing on an open political door right now, which is he knows that at best, Democrats are wobbly on the question of impeachment where they seem to be more comfortable as well as just keep the investigation going, which allows him to make the argument that they're harassing him.

And he knows that Republicans are not united on this in the Senate, meaning they're united in his favor not to push against him. And I think that's what he sees as the opportunity to fight here.

And yet, he's going to meet with Nancy Pelosi, apparently, next week to talk about infrastructure, which may be coming back. So let's see if he can

MALIKA-HENDERSON: Can't wait for that.

GREGORY: -- hold those opposing ideas in his head at the same time.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Hillary Clinton, David, who has some experience with impeachment, by proxy, had -- has an op-ed in "The Wall Street Journal" about how she thinks Democrats should proceed with this.

She writes, "The debate about how to respond to Russia's 'sweeping and systematic' attack, and how to hold President Trump accountable for obstructing the investigation and possibly breaking the law, has been reduced to a false choice: immediate impeachment or nothing. History suggests there's a better way to think about the choices ahead."

She goes on to talk about the substantive hearings.

For the record, so that if for nothing else you have the truth, the investigation's sunlight is on them for the record forever.

AXELROD: Well, she is basically articulating the position that Nancy Pelosi has been selling to her members to try and quell this movement toward impeachment, and there's something to this.

There is -- there is an incomplete record. And as has been pointed out, the invitation from Mueller was for Congress to complete the job and really examine a fairly large body of evidence around this obstruction issue.

And what's interesting about Hillary Clinton's piece other than that it's Hillary Clinton, is she was a young lawyer on the Watergate committee back in 70s, so she has some background in these kinds of matters.

BERMAN: It's fascinating, right? She's connected to three impeachment issues --

AXELROD: Yes.

BERMAN: -- as being on the committee back then. AXELROD: Right.

BERMAN: Her husband was impeached. And, of course, now being part of the election --

AXELROD: Yes.

BERMAN: -- which is under investigation. Really, she has a unique perspective, to say the least.

AXELROD: She does.

BERMAN: All right, David, David, David, Nia --

CAMEROTA (Singing): "One of These Things."

BERMAN: -- thank you very much for being with us.

All right. We've been talking about the presidential stonewalling. What will Democrats do about it? What next?

What's the next move if the White House keeps fighting? How far will they push this? What's the strategy?

We're going to ask a member of House Democratic leadership, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:38:02] BERMAN: The White House is defying Congressional investigations in ways really never seen before. The president is promising to fight every subpoena coming from the House of Representatives.

So what can Democrats do about it? What will they do about it?

Joining me now is Democratic Congresswoman Katherine Clark. She's the vice chair of the House Democratic Caucus. Congresswoman, thank you so much for being with us.

What next?

REP. KATHERINE CLARK (D-MA): Well, thank you, John, for having me.

And, this president is setting the stage. He is saying that he is going to continue to obstruct all of the congressional hearings that are going forward. There -- it is -- for a president who just claimed on Twitter that he is the most transparent president, his actions speak far louder.

We will continue to pursue our investigations.

BERMAN: How?

CLARK: We respect the rule of law. We will enforce contempt.

BERMAN: How? CLARK: And if that won't -- well, there are procedures for that. Contempt is serious. It is a $100,000 fine, it is up to one year in prison. We will need U.S. attorneys to bring those prosecutions.

BERMAN: They won't.

CLARK: If the president interferes in that, then we will be able to have impeachment on the table. It's not like that is not within our power.

We are trying to make this case to the American people exactly the full scope of what is happening with this president.

If he continues to obstruct it, we also need to ask the other very big question. What is the response from the Republicans? Their silence is complicity.

Are they really OK with this president saying that he can totally overlook Congress? He can overlook the constitutional duties and responsibilities and roles?

BERMAN: So --

[07:40:00] CLARK: And we are going to be pushing on them to speak up against this.

BERMAN: I have some answers to some of these questions.

Let's assume that the Republicans are not going to join in to the Democratic efforts to have these people come testify. Let's leave that aside.

Number two, yes, Congress can hold these people defying subpoenas in contempt and then one option would be to have the Department of Justice prosecute them. That will not happen --

CLARK: That's right.

BERMAN: -- under the Barr Justice Department or during this administration and historically, has not happened when there have been administrations of different parties in Congress.

Then the third option would be to press for some kind of civil contempt, and that is what has happened in the past and what you could do.

But no one's gone to jail for contempt of Congress in over 100 years. No one's been fined in any serious way in over 100 years. So how can you force this issue?

CLARK: Well, you know, I think you've raised a great point.

We have never seen a president like this. We have never seen a president who so flagrantly decides that he's above the law and that he can do what he wants. And, you know, we do have tools and yes, these have not historically been used. But we have never had a president who has issued a blanket statement that nobody is going to respond to subpoenas from Congress.

So, I hope you're wrong. I hope there will be U.S. attorneys that will step up and do the right thing.

And, you know, I hope that Attorney General Barr will remember that he works for the American people. He is not the personal attorney of the president.

But if all of that fails -- if all of those protections of our government fail, we will pursue impeachment. We won't have any other choice. And this is up to the president.

And I don't think we can just say we're going to let the Republicans off the hook by saying well, they haven't don't anything to date. This continues to be precedent-busting times. This president needs to have -- to be reined in.

And we need Republican counterparts to understand that they took an oath of office and they need to uphold it. This is way past politics in any one congressional election. This is the foundation of our democracy at stake.

BERMAN: So, Hillary Clinton wrote an op-ed in "The Washington Post" yesterday and among other things, she says it's a false choice between nothing and impeachment. She says hearings -- fulsome hearings where people come testify.

That does seem to be what you and the Democratic House leadership are pushing for.

CLARK: That's right. I do agree with her, it is a false choice.

We have tremendous power as investigators under Article I. It is our constitutional responsibility for oversight.

And we just got a redacted copy of the Mueller report last week. We need to look into what's happened with security clearances and what is going on with the Deutsche Bank. How can we protect our elections from foreign interference that we know is the ongoing push of Russia's?

So there are many things that we can do that may lead us to impeachment or may not. But we know that we have a president who is unfit to hold this office and every day that he leads with obstruction, we have to lead with the rule of law and lead with protecting our democracy.

BERMAN: This morning, an hour and 43 minutes ago, former vice president Joe Biden officially entered the race for president. He released a campaign video.

I'm not sure you've had a chance to see it yet but it frames the race around Charlottesville, saying that we must remember. We can't forget what happened in Charlottesville. He says, "I knew the threat to this nation was unlike any I had ever seen in my lifetime."

What do you make of his entry into the race and the way that he's framed it?

CLARK: Well, I think we all remember hearing those words from President Trump after Charlottesville, which was such a shocking and sad occasion. And to hear him say there are very fine people on both sides was really a defining moment.

He keeps showing us who he is and we have to believe him. And I think with all the Democratic candidates we're seeing that they want to restore the moral integrity of the White House, of the Oval Office, and of our country.

The quote that Joe Biden used to open his video reminds us that these truths may be self-evident but they're not self-executing.

BERMAN: Right.

CLARK: And what we're seeing from the Democratic candidates are looking to the American people not only for those higher moral values that we know we share working towards the American ideals but also the fundamentals of what are the challenges facing families.

[07:45:09] The high cost of child care and student debt. Looking at how we can better raise wages. Rebuilding our infrastructure. Protecting our electrical grid.

These are the issues that people care about. They understand the threat to the climate. They want their government to do something about it.

And I'm proud of the Democratic candidates that are stepping forward --

BERMAN: Right.

CLARK: -- and saying at this point in history with this president I'm throwing my hat in the ring to change the course and to bring us back to the country that we aspire to be.

BERMAN: Congresswoman Katherine Clark of Massachusetts. Love seeing the John Hancock building behind you in the picture. Thanks so much for being with us this morning. I appreciate it -- Alisyn.

CLARK: Thank you, John.

CAMEROTA: All right.

Joe Biden joining the race. What will it do to the other candidates' positions and poll numbers? Harry Enten crunches the numbers for us, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BERMAN: All right. Former vice president Joe Biden, one hour and 49 minutes ago,

officially entered the 2020 race for president. He now can logically be seen as the front-runner. How does it change the race and what are his strengths and weaknesses?

CNN senior politics writer and analyst Harry Enten joins us now with the forecast.

HARRY ENTEN, CNN SENIOR POLITICS WRITER AND ANALYST: Is it really breaking news if it was an hour and 49 minutes ago?

CAMEROTA: Yes.

BERMAN: I mean, it's still breaking.

CAMEROTA: Yes, we're still riding the --

[07:50:00] ENTEN: This work has a very broad liberal definition.

BERMAN: Indeed.

Where does Joe Biden sit in the polls?

ENTEN: Yes. So let's take a look at where he is and I basically looked at the early states, the early caucuses, and primaries, and nationally. And what we basically see is pretty much universal support.

He's at 30 percent nationally, 26 percent in Iowa, 24 percent in New Hampshire, 26 percent in Nevada, and 36 percent in South Carolina. And he's first in all of these different places based upon a polling average since the beginning of the year.

Now, a lot of people are saying well, don't you remember Jeb Bush, right? He was doing -- you know, he was supposedly a front-runner. This is one of the worst comparisons I've ever seen from a polling angle, people, and this is why.

Just look at the differences between their numbers. Biden is basically doubling up on Bush nationally and if you average everything together you see that same doubling up. So, Biden is in a much stronger position in the polls than Jeb Bush was at this point in their campaign.

CAMEROTA: So you're saying anybody who would use this poll is a total dummy. The (INAUDIBLE) you just used.

ENTEN: Well, I -- what I am saying is that -- what I would say is that anyone who is making this comparison has to recognize that Biden in the polls is in a considerably better position than Jeb Bush is.

CAMEROTA: Good. OK, next.

ENTEN: Next. So, the question is so what do these polls actually mean at this point? So we can go back over time -- 5:38 -- I did this yesterday and I've

taken this and basically what we see is someone who is polling nationally between 20 and 35 percent has won their nominations since 1972 about 35 percent of the time. Now, that's obviously less than 50, so he's not the hands-on favorite.

But it should be pointed out that in the field that is at 20 right now, winning a nomination about 35 percent of the time is pretty good.

CAMEROTA: But, Bernie Sanders is also polling in that.

ENTEN: He's right -- he's right -- he's right around in this kind of nugget. He's polling right on the precipice of 20 percent. And people who are polling there generally win about 20 percent of the time.

So, Biden is ahead of where Sanders is. Sanders is generally polling about 20 percent versus Biden in the high 20s, around 30 percent.

BERMAN: You've talked a lot about what makes Biden a strong candidate. That there are more older Democrats than people realize -- more moderate Democrats than people realize. However, there are some weaknesses in the polling as well that you've noticed.

ENTEN: Well, yes. I would say that there are a few things and I would start kind of with this one. And this is a real question for me and we've kind of spoken about this. We had this conversation earlier on this program and that is Joe Biden, of course, will be over 75 come Election Day and Inauguration Day.

And, to me, if you look at the polls -- and "NBC NEWS" asked this -- enthusiastic or comfortable with a candidate over 75. Only 33 percent of Democrats and only 37 percent of all voters are -- actually feel comfortable about that. And the question is are they pricing that into the polls so far, and if they aren't then that is a reason to believe that his poll numbers may be artificially high.

CAMEROTA: OK. Another weakness?

ENTEN: Another weakness that I'll point out is I think there's a real question. Look, we know that the party elites, at least a decent number of them, are going to rally around Biden, right? He's basically already gotten a slew of endorsements from the Pennsylvania delegation.

But the grassroots -- Seth Masket, who has basically been interviewing these different people in the early states -- these different Democratic activists -- find that only about 20 percent of them right now are considering support Biden, and that is down considerably from at the end of last year.

And, of course, I think there's a real question of is there this grassroots appetite? If there isn't, that could be potentially an impediment for Biden.

But I will say, of course, activists are just like elites. They don't necessarily tell voters how they're actually going to vote.

BERMAN: All right. This notion that Biden would be the most moderate or centrist Democrat in the field, the numbers actually bear that out, yes?

ENTEN: Yes. So, if you were essentially to look right now, what we see -- this is based upon a congressional voting record -- we see that Biden, if you were to do it on a scale where zero is the most liberal and 100 is the most moderate -- Biden is at a 70.

That's pretty close to where the different Democratic nominees the last few times were, but it is considerably further to the center than, say, Bernie Sanders or Elizabeth Warren or Kamala Harris.

But, of course, this, I think, gives you the idea of where the Joe Biden coalition is and why he's doing better with those more moderate voters. It's because he has that more moderate voting record.

CAMEROTA: Do you have some polling on facial hair that we should get to?

ENTEN: Yes. I mean, look, he -- look, I'll point this out is look at -- look at this beautiful man.

BERMAN: Yes.

ENTEN: This is a beautiful man on our program earlier this week. And it should be pointed out that the percentage of men who have beards or mustaches --

CAMEROTA: Yes.

ENTEN: -- ever in their life has actually grown considerably since 1972. It was only --

CAMEROTA: Is that right?

ENTEN: It was only a minority back then. My father, of course, was always clean-shaven versus me. I sometimes have a little bit up here.

And what we see is that 72 percent -- 72 percent of American males have said that they either had a beard or a mustache at some point in their life back in 2018.

BERMAN: So there is a constituency for that.

ENTEN: There is definitely a constituency but you've decided to go the other way.

CAMEROTA: I mean, I kind of wanted to know how Americans felt about it. Have you polled them?

ENTEN: I would say that women, specifically, feel that they prefer a clean-shaven man.

CAMEROTA: Well, there you go. BERMAN: There you go.

CAMEROTA: You win. OK.

All right, thank you.

ENTEN: Thank you.

CAMEROTA: You're really full-service.

ENTEN: I try my best. There are numbers for everything.

CAMEROTA: Thank you.

BERMAN: So, the defending Stanley Cup champions stunned in a game seven double-overtime playoff thriller. The "Bleacher Report" is next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:59:00] BERMAN: So, there's playoff intensity and then there's hockey game seven playoff intensity.

Coy Wire has more in the "Bleacher Report" -- Coy.

COY WIRE, CNN SPORTS CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, John.

These NHL players could not have been more unpredictable. It was a wild game seven in Washington that sent the defending champion Capitals home last night.

The Carolina Hurricanes were down two goals, on the brink of elimination, but they fight back to tie it with this. Look at this. Five Caps defenders in red, but all Carolina's Jordan Staal saw was net.

With about two minutes to go, the Caps could have taken the lead, but watch the effort from Brock McGinn at the bottom of your screen -- comes flying in to knock the puck away.

It was with effort like that that Carolina forces overtime, then double-overtime where guess who does what. Brock McGinn deflecting in the game-winner. That goal is the third-longest game seven in NHL history

Four-three to Carolina and the win. The underdogs moving on to face the New York Islanders in round two. And with that, the Caps eliminated.

This is the first time in NHL history that all four division champs failed to make it out of the first round, Alisyn. Somehow, the Boston Bruins are still in it and because John Berman's teams just always win they'll probably find a way to win it all.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

WIRE: He wins everything.

END