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Judge May Release Coast Guard Officer Accused of Terror Plot; Trump Leaves White House for NRA Convention in Indianapolis; Interview with Representative David Cicilline (D-RI) about White House Officials Ignoring Subpoenas. Aired 9:30-10a ET

Aired April 26, 2019 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[09:31:35] JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: A Coast Guard lieutenant accused of plotting a domestic terror attack could be released from detention.

Christopher Hasson was indicted on weapons and drug charges but has not yet been charged with anything related to terrorism or attempted murder. Prosecutors say Hasson is a white supremacist who created a hit list that included prominent Democratic politicians as well as several journalists including some of my colleagues here at CNN. But in arguing for his release, his attorney said his views are no different than President Trump's.

CNN crime and justice reporter David Shortell joins us now.

This is a remarkable decision from this judge. How did he explain it?

DAVID SHORTELL, CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE PRODUCER: Yes, good morning, Jim. A really dramatic turn of events yesterday in a Maryland federal court when the judge there said that Christopher Hasson, a Coast Guard lieutenant that prosecutors have accused of being a domestic terrorist, should be released from detention ahead of his hearing.

Now Hasson pleaded not guilty last month to multiple weapons and drug charges and prosecutors have really painted a picture of him as this decades-long white supremacist who had amassed an arsenal of weapons and had Google searched the home addresses of Supreme Court justices and as you said made this hit list of media personalities and prominent Democrats.

Notably absent from any charges that he faced were domestic terrorism charges which doesn't exist and any attempted murder or conspiracy to commit terrorism charges. That's a point that his public defender Elizabeth Oyer really hit on multiple times yesterday in court saying that Hasson had no plan of attack and that the government had really overblown his plans and he was merely exercising his free thought.

She also made some other very interesting points regarding the racist language that Hasson had used in some of his private writings. She said these terms have become, quote, "part of a national vocabulary," and that Donald Trump uses similar epithets in his everyday language and tweets. She also referred to this list of prominent journalists including some at CNN and Democrats that Hasson allegedly wrote where prosecutors claimed as this hit list, she said that that list looks like a list our commander-in-chief might have, quote, "compiled while watching FOX News in the morning."

Now the prosecution for their part has urged the judge, Judge Charles Day, to keep Hasson locked up. And they showed new photos in court yesterday of a weapons arsenal that Hasson had amassed in a closet just feet from his bedroom in suburban Maryland. They had ammo there and they had photos of this body armor. At one point, the assistant U.S. attorney Thomas Windom even held up a weighted cargo vest and told the judge, Judge, this is combat gear, there's no reason to have this.

Now Judge Charles Day sympathized, he said these are vile thoughts that Hasson had espoused and said the government had been dealt a very challenging set of facts but at the end of the day, the continued detention was not appropriate given the charges he faced.

Jim, it's important to note that Hasson is not walking out of jail today. The judge told the defense attorney Oyer to come back at a future court hearing with some proposed plans for supervised release. The judge had indicated that that would include keeping him under tight lock and key, no access to internet, no access to his weapons, and Judge Day actually said, quote, "Somebody has got to keep eyes and ears on Hasson like nobody's business" -- Jim.

SCIUTTO: Quick question, though. He still has his weapons?

SHORTELL: No, the government has seized all of his weapons. At one point, though, the prosecutor said there are a couple weapons that are missing that we don't know where they are. So we want to be sure that when we put Hasson under supervised release, if that happens, and remember they may have a chance to still appeal, the government here, they don't want him anywhere near any weapons and they want him under supervision.

[09:35:04] SCIUTTO: Yes . Seems a simple rule there.

David Shortell, thanks very much.

Let's speak now to former New York City prosecutor and CNN legal analyst Paul Callan.

So he had weapons, a lot of them. Seen the pictures. He had a hit list. He used language -- we'll put some of this up on the screen. White homeland. When are whites going to wake up? Please, God, let there be a race war. You know, speaking to his motivation here. Why isn't that enough to hold him?

PAUL CALLAN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: This is an utterly shocking decision by a federal judge, but the judge is looking at the federal bail statute, which is very, very strict in terms of the requirement that you must be charged with a crime of violence and there must be a firm proof of an intent to commit acts of violence for bail to be set. Enough to keep you detained. This judge, obviously, is looking at this and saying it's only a weapons possession case.

SCIUTTO: It's a lot of weapons.

CALLAN: He had -- well, it's a lot of weapons but there's no section of -- in the statue that says a lot of weapons.

SCIUTTO: Yes .

CALLAN: OK. It says a crime of violence. He has not committed a crime of violence. Now I think it's an indefensible decision by the judge because there are other factors you can take into consideration like the strength of the case and the likelihood that he might flee. He obviously looks like he has mental instability. And with respect to the actual information that prosecutors gathered, he did searches on which guns could be best and most effective in killing African- Americans. He did a search on the addresses of Supreme Court justices.

SCIUTTO: Yes. Yes.

CALLAN: But he was also looking to see how they were protected. That was part of the search.

SCIUTTO: That speaks to planning.

CALLAN: It certainly does.

SCIUTTO: What about the lawyer's argument here that the language he used is so similar to the president's, and I'm quoting from the judge here, "It's become part of the national vocabulary," referencing the president specifically, everyday language and tweets, but also something that he might have -- the president might have shared after watching FOX News. Is that a reasonable --

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CALLAN: Do we have a report that that was the judge's language or the defense attorney's?

SCIUTTO: Sorry, the defense attorney's language.

CALLAN: Looks like it. Yes. Whether he --

SCIUTTO: Speaking to the judge, which, you know, apparently was influenced by that argument.

CALLAN: Well, maybe he was, maybe he wasn't. Maybe he was just literally applying the statute, but that's over the top. I mean, the president has never said anything remotely similar to what was being advocated here. So I just think it's an anomaly of a decision, a bizarre decision by a federal judge, and I think maybe we'll see it reversed. There has to be more here than meets the eye.

SCIUTTO: Can it be reversed, though? If this judge -- because judges have enormous power, you know better than me, in their own courtroom.

CALLAN: Yes.

SCIUTTO: Can it be -- could it be overruled by another judge?

CALLAN: It could be taken up on appeal and you could also appeal to the judge to reconsider his decision.

SCIUTTO: I see.

CALLAN: So I mean, it's a shocking decision. I just can't understand why a federal judge would do this.

SCIUTTO: Paul Callan, thanks very much.

CALLAN: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: President Trump, no money paid to North Korea for Warmbier's care. Trump reacting to Biden entering the race as well. A lot of things that he's been saying now as he's been speaking to reporters on the White House lawn before his departure for an event in Indianapolis for an NRA event in Indianapolis. As soon as we have that tape back, we're going to play it for you. And we'll be right back after this short break.

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DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I'm not allowed to comment on the new GDP numbers until about 10 or 15 minutes from now so I will not comment on them. The country, though, is doing very well in every respect. I mean, we're just doing well. We're knocking it out of the park, as they say. And we're very happy about that.

We did not pay money for our great Otto. There was no money paid.

[09:40:01] There was a fake news report that money was paid. I haven't paid money for any hostage, and I have gotten approximately -- I think it's 20 or 21 out. We don't pay money for hostages. The Otto case was a very unusual case. But I just want to let you know, no money was paid for Otto.

(CROSSTALK)

TRUMP: I never told Don McGahn to fire Mueller. If I wanted to fire Mueller, I would have done it myself. It's very simple. I had the right to. And frankly, whether I did or he did, we had the absolute right to fire Mueller. In the meantime, I didn't do it. I'm a student of history. I see what you get when you fire people, and it's not good. But there would have been nothing wrong with firing him. Legally, I had absolute right to fire, but I never told Don McGahn to fire Mueller.

(CROSSTALK)

TRUMP: And by the way, and Mueller finished out his report. No collusion. And no obstruction.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Mr. President, how do you beat Joe Biden? TRUMP: I think we beat him easily.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: (INAUDIBLE)

TRUMP: Speak, up, up. You've got to --

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: What do you tell parents about getting their kids vaccinated?

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Measles, on the measles?

TRUMP: They have to get the shot. The vaccinations are so important. This is really going around now. They have to get their shots.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Mr. President, how old is too old to be president?

TRUMP: Well, I think that I just feel like a young man. I'm so young. I can't believe it. I'm the youngest person -- I am a young, vibrant man. I look at Joe. I don't know about him. I don't know.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Is he too old?

TRUMP: I would never say anyone is too old, but I know they're all making me look very young, both in terms of age and I think in terms of energy. I think you people know that better than anybody. Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Mr. President, (INAUDIBLE) very fine people on both sides --

TRUMP: I have answered that question, and if you look at what I said, you will see that that question was answered perfectly. And I was talking about people that went because they felt very strongly about the monument to Robert E. Lee, a great general. Whether you like it or not, he was one of the great generals.

I have spoken to many generals here right at the White House. And many people thought of the general, they think that he was maybe their favorite general. People were there protesting the taking down of the monument of Robert E. Lee. Everybody knows that.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Kim Jong-un has said that he wants Pompeo to not be part of the negotiations and that (INAUDIBLE) U.S. attitude. What do you think about that and what's the prospect for talks with North Korea?

TRUMP: I think we're doing very well with North Korea. A lot of progress is being made. I appreciated President Putin's statement yesterday. He wants to see it done also. I think there's a lot of excitement toward getting a deal done with North Korea. In the meantime, when I came here, there were nuclear tests, missile tests, rocket tests. We got our hostages back. We got remains back and continue to come back from the war. Our great heroes, the remains. There's been no test. There's been no nothing. So at some point,

you're going to report the facts. I have a great relationship with Kim Jong-un. I appreciate that Russia and China is helping us. And China is helping us because I think they want to. They don't need nuclear weapons right next to their country. But I also think they're helping us because of the fact that we're in a trade deal, which by the way is going very well.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Mr. President, will you let Don McGahn testify?

TRUMP: What we're doing is executive --

(CROSSTALK)

TRUMP: So what we're doing in the history of our country, there has never been a president that's been more transparent than me or the Trump administration. I let White House counsel McGahn testify. I let everybody testify. I think McGahn -- excuse me, I think McGahn was in there for 30 hours. Who ever heard of such a thing? But I said I want everybody to testify.

Obviously, McGahn thought he testified fine because he was with the administration for a long time after that. And I think he said he was just joining up with respect to the appointment of judges by the administration. But I let everybody testify. There's never ever been transparency like this. So just so you understand. So we got a great -- excuse me. We get the ruling. which I knew we were going to get because I have nothing to do with Russia and the campaign.

[09:45:05] So we get a ruling. No collusion. We essentially get a ruling, no obstruction based on the facts our great attorney general made an immediate decision, there was no obstruction. So we have no collusion, no obstruction. We had total transparency. We gave 1.4 million documents. If you can believe such a ridiculous thing. Five hundred people testified. We had 18 people that were Trump haters. That includes Mr. Mueller. He was a Trump hater.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: I'm talking about Congress, Mr. President. Congress.

TRUMP: And wait a minute. Wait. Wait. Wait.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Can he testify --

TRUMP: With all of this, with all of this, with all of this transparency, we finished no collusion, no obstruction, right? Then I get out the first day, they're saying let's do it again. And I said that's enough. We've got to run a country. We have a very great country to run. And frankly, when I go through it with the House and the Senate, and we have no collusion, no collusion, no obstruction, no obstruction, then we have again we have to go through it?

This is a pure political witch hunt. We did nothing wrong and the only thing I did is make our country stronger, give it the numbers like people haven't seen before. What we're doing in this country financially with the military, with our veterans, you look at veterans. We now have veterans choice. Nobody has ever done what I have done in their first two years. So if I'm guilty of anything, it's that I have been a great president, and the Democrats don't like it, which is a shame.

(CROSSTALK)

TRUMP: I'm going to Indianapolis. We're going to the NRA. And we look forward to it.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: How do you beat Biden? How would you do it?

TRUMP: I would say easily.

SCIUTTO: President answering several questions there, repeating the phrase no collusion, no obstruction, about a half dozen times by my count. He also pronounced himself a young, vibrant man, seeming to compare himself to Joe Biden. He said that Robert E. Lee was a great general and claimed that his Charlottesville comments about good people being on both sides were not referencing the white supremacists taking place in those -- taking part, rather, on those violent protests.

He also again denies that he told his former White House counsel Don McGahn to fire Robert Mueller, though, of course, the special counsel substantiated McGahn's account with multiple witnesses.

We have Joe Johns and Nia-Malika Henderson with us now.

Nia-Malika, there, you know, some of these are familiar notes from the president, certainly the no collusion, no obstruction one, but he also appears to be doubling down on this claim that he did not tell McGahn to fire Mueller, which indicates to me that he finds that one of the more concerning findings from the Mueller report.

NIA-MALIKA HENDERSON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: That's right, and it was a major part of the Mueller report. One of the most damaging parts as well. And something that we had known about before, this was reported before the Mueller report came out. But in that report, it says that McGahn essentially testified that the president ordered him to instruct the Justice Department to get rid of Mueller. And so you have had the president --

SCIUTTO: Testified under oath, mind you.

HENDERSON: Right. Exactly.

SCIUTTO: Under penalty of going to prison, a tweet and comment on the White House lawn. President faces no such penalty. Sorry, just wanted to --

HENDERSON: Yes -- no, I think you're right. And so this is -- you see the president going after this, making this point over and over again. On Twitter, he's made it a couple of times. Here, he's making it again.

SCIUTTO: Back to the president again.

TRUMP: And they were far higher than even the high expectations. There were many people who thought it would be less than two, and there were 3.2. Inflation numbers are very low. The gasoline prices are coming down. I called up OPEC. I said you got to bring them down. You got to bring them down. And gasoline is coming down.

We're doing great. GDP is an incredible number. But remember this. Not only that, we have a great growth, which is growth. We have great growth, and also very, very low inflation. Our economy is doing great. Number one in the world. We're number one economy right now in the world. And it's not even close. So thank you very much.

SCIUTTO: Short encounter there with reporters. The president wanted, understandably, to comment on the above expectations economic growth numbers for the first quarter of this year, 3.2 percent. The projections had been about a percentage point lower than that, 2.1 percent.

Sorry, Nia, you were completing a thought before the president spoke again, then I want to hear from Joe Johns.

HENDERSON: Yes. I think we're going to hear this from the president, the line about McGahn basically disputing what McGahn, as you said, testified under oath about the president's actions.

[09:50:09] This last bit the president talking about the economy, that's where his supporters, his advisers, want him to be in many ways. Turning the page.

SCIUTTO: Of course, yes.

HENDERSON: Not still fighting the old battle that they see as an old battle between Mueller. He in some ways has declared victory, but still keeps getting caught up in sort of fighting the last war.

SCIUTTO: Joe Johns, interesting note. The president there saying that people, children, families need to get their measles shots.

JOE JOHNS, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Right.

SCIUTTO: In the midst of a measles outbreak after a disease that had been eradicated. For the president to say that, important because in the past he shared via Twitter many times his concerns about multiple vaccines which is of course at the root of this anti-vax movement here.

JOHNS: Right.

SCIUTTO: Have his advisers been telling him, listen, you've got to go out in public and tell people to do this?

JOHNS: It's very interesting because the president essentially broke his silence on this issue, Jim. He has not talked about this, even though going all the way back to 2014, the president raised questions about bundling of vaccinations like the MMR on Twitter. And during his inauguration and so forth, he interacted with some of the theorists on MMR causing autism.

The president had talked today about the fact that he thinks people need to go ahead and get the vaccinations. So that's a big change for him, a significant change. There have been some people who actually said it's best for him not to say anything at all because of his previous positions. But there you go, on the record with other presidents on the issue of vaccines.

SCIUTTO: Yes. Yes. And a worry that was founded on debunked science. We're going to have a segment on that later in the program.

Joe, the GDP figures, and Nia as well, I mean, this is good news for this administration. The president's number one barometer for himself and his performance are the GDP numbers as well as I suppose we could say the stock market. So certainly good news for him, Joe.

JOHNS: Yes. Certainly good news for the president. Even better than a lot of people expected. I know coming into work this morning, the expectation was around 2.8 percent, which would have also been good. So they're looking at some pretty good numbers. On the other hand, there are some predictions that down the road, we won't see that kind of growth in the future. So the administration pretty much trying to ignore all of that, pointing to their tax cuts and other measures which they say has spurred the economy, Jim.

SCIUTTO: Right. Watch the trend line. Joe and Nia, thanks so much. We'll be right back.

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[09:55:34] SCIUTTO: This Monday, Congress will return to Washington and it will be, imagine this, contentious because right now at least two House Democrats are threatening to arrest, even imprison, White House officials who do not comply with their congressional subpoenas. Those lawmakers, Congressman Gerry Connolly of Virginia, as well as my next guest, Democratic Congressman David Cicilline of Rhode Island. He serves on the Judiciary Committee.

Congressman, thank you for taking the time this morning.

REP. DAVID CICILLINE (D-RI): My pleasure.

SCIUTTO: So you've issued subpoenas. That's, of course, your right, and subpoenas should be followed. But imprisoning White House officials who refuse to obey those subpoenas, is that something you're willing to follow through on?

CICILLINE: Well, look, Jim. We have a responsibility to conduct oversight. That requires us to collect evidence that is documentary evidence and other kinds of evidence as well as to compel the production of testimony under oath. If we lose the ability to do that, we essentially don't have an oversight function. And so the Supreme Court as far back as 1821 and again in 1935 recognized the right of Congress to hold an individual in contempt and to take them in custody if they willfully violate a lawfully issued subpoena.

This is central to our oversight responsibilities. We hope it never gets to that. There are two other ways to compel production of witnesses and testimonies going through a civil action in the federal court or a criminal prosecution by referring it to the Department of Justice, but those can take a long time. The ability of Congress to hold an individual in contempt for disobeying a lawfully issued subpoena and the ability to take that person into custody until they comply is inherent in our obligation to do oversight. So I hope it doesn't come to that.

SCIUTTO: OK.

CICILLINE: I hope the witnesses will come forward, but we have to be prepared to do everything we can to get to the bottom of this, that we demonstrate no one is above the law and that we find the truth for the American people.

SCIUTTO: OK. I get that, it's a legal point, it's a constitutional point. But to the politics here. Because I wonder how much political appetite there is, even among Democratic voters for this. Let's have a look. This is a Monmouth poll out earlier this week. 54 percent of the American public say Congress should move on to other issues, 39 percent, no, keep investigating.

I wonder if you're hearing the same from your constituents and you're concerned that you may be seen as the party of investigations if you don't move on.

CICILLINE: No, look, I think it's very clear that Democrats have been moving forward very aggressively on our for the people agenda. Focused on driving down health care costs, particularly costs of prescription drugs, raising family incomes with a real focus on an infrastructure plan, and taking on the corruption in Washington and self-dealing and getting the government to work for the people again.

We've begun that work. We've begun hearings on prescription drug prices. We passed some legislation out of committee. We passed HR-1, a major democracy reform that raises ethical standards most profoundly since Watergate. We've passed universal background checks, we've passed equal pay for equal work for women. So we're getting the work done for the American people.

(CROSSTALK)

SCIUTTO: Through the House, not the Senate.

CICILLINE: We need to do that.

SCIUTTO: Through the House, not the Senate.

CICILLINE: Well -- but that's all we can do.

SCIUTTO: I mean, it's --

CICILLINE: We can only -- (CROSSTALK)

CICILLINE: Right, but we have to, you know, pass the legislation that addresses the economic anxieties of the American people. Focus on those issues and at the same time, we have a responsibility to do oversight. We need to do both things. But we're going to be the party that is known for fighting for the people, that is improving the lives of working people in this country, that's protecting health care, and the party that's holding this administration accountable. We have to do both.

SCIUTTO: Let me ask you this, because the president, as you know, just spoke on his way to an event. And one of many comments he made struck me because he was responding to Joe Biden picking out his Charlottesville comments, the famous, you know, there are good people on both sides. And the president said listen, I was just talking about people who were protecting Robert E. Lee's statue. And by the way the president said, repeated he's a great general, probably one of greatest generals. Of course, he fought against his own country and fought to keep slavery the law.

What's your reaction to the president's comments to that defense of his Charlottesville comments?

CICILLINE: Well, I think, you know, those of us who watched the president utter those words, there are good people on both sides, knew exactly what he meant, and he never explained it in the way that he tried to this morning. I think this is part of a pattern where the president sees value in dividing the country and, you know, saying things that the base of his supporters like. But really try to divide the country. I think people will judge him on those words.

But I think what's more important is to judge him on what's happening to working families in this country and the efforts by the Trump administration to take away health care, to do nothing about driving down the cost of prescription drugs, to opposing our efforts to raise family incomes with equal pay for equal work.

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