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Steve Mnuchin Versus House Democrats Over Trump's Tax Returns; Michael Cohen Leaves An Intriguing Statement Before Going To Jail; President Trump Wants To Run In 2020 Under His Administration's Strong Economy; Does A Booming Economy Mean Four More Years For Trump?; What Does The Democratic Party Want To Be In 2020?; Meghan Markle, The Duchess Of Sussex, Gives Birth To A Baby Boy. Aired 11p-12a ET
Aired May 6, 2019 - 23:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[23:00:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DON LEMON, CNN HOST: This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.
The Trump administration setting itself up for another showdown with House Democrats. This time over President Trump's personal tax returns. The Treasury Secretary, Steve Mnuchin refusing to release them.
The chairman of the powerful House Ways and Means Committee had requested six years of returns. Congressman Richard Neal saying he'll weigh his testimony, his next move, I should say, which could include issuing a subpoena for them.
Meanwhile, the House Judiciary Committee has set a vote Wednesday on whether to hold the Attorney General, William Barr in contempt of Congress for ignoring a subpoena to turn over the unredacted Mueller report.
Committee staff and Justice Department officials are waiting tomorrow to see if they can reach a deal.
Also tonight, the White House trying to back track from President Trump's weekend tweet that Robert Mueller should not testify before Congress.
An official telling CNN the president was just expressing his opinion because the investigation is over and it is time to move on.
Lots to discuss. Jon Sale is here, John Dean.
Gentleman, good evening. So good to see both of you.
John Dean, let's talk. The president has been all over the place when it comes to Mueller testifying. Is he worried his claim of exoneration is going to go up in flames?
JOHN DEAN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, I think he knows his claim of exoneration is going to go up in flames if Mueller and when Mueller testifies for indeed, that's exactly what's going to happen. And you know, this effort to try to put out a bogus story and spin this is only going to last so long once Mueller gets out there and his testimony is going to be, I think very powerful.
LEMON: John Dean, you know better than most the strategy behind when and whether to testify to Congress. Do you think it's possible the attorney general stops Mueller from testifying?
DEAN: Well, you know, as long as Mueller is an employee of the Department of Justice which he is now, he could have some say in that. But I don't -- from all reports, at least the last reports, is that Mueller is on his way out and he's not going to be an employee, then he certainly has no influence of power over him then.
He might try to persuade him to testify. But I think Mueller given the fact that he's been trashed not only by the president but by the attorney general, needs to stand up and explain what he's done and why he's done it for his own reputation's sake.
LEMON: Yes. You have -- how do you feel about this? Because you think that he's going to be gone soon, and what's your take?
JON SALE, FORMER WATERGATE ASSISTANT SPECIAL PROSECUTOR: First of all, let me say hello to John. It's been a long time and who would have thought, John, 20 -- 40 -- I'm not going to say how many years ago that we would both be sitting and analyzing another -- what people think is another Watergate.
I think that Bob Mueller is going to play it by the book. And I think he will resign soon. But I think he will still not -- he'll disappoint us if he testifies. Because prosecutors really should not be explaining in public all of their reasoning behind what they do. Because they can't help but get into talking about the reputation of people who were never charged.
So, I think he is going to play it by the book and if he's instructed to assert a privilege, he'll do it and then it would go to court.
I just want to say one other quick thing.
SALE: Don McGahn invoked the Saturday night massacre. Let me tell you that, it's nothing like that. John Dean he got out of dodge. He knew that there was something was wrong. He told the president there was a cancer on the presidency and he got out.
There was no Saturday -- I was fired in the Saturday night massacre. I know what has happened. Here the president, despite all the talk he didn't fire anybody. And Mueller did complete his work.
LEMON: And that's why Mueller said what he said in the report. You think basically Mueller will testify and he'll get up there in front of Congress or whomever, in front of Congress and just say basically what is in his letters and what was in the report and not really saying -- well, I couldn't because they are going to ask him specifics.
So, this is what I'm going to ask you. They're going to ask specifically if he wasn't president of the United States, would he have been charged? That's going to be the question.
SALE: Well, my prediction has been wrong before. But I think he's going to say the report speaks for itself.
LEMON: Got you. Got you.
SALE: But we'll see.
LEMON: What do you think, John?
DEAN: I think that's possible as well. He is in status (Inaudible). He is a by-the-book kind of guy. But I think he does want to explain his position which is not what the attorney general is telling the world or the president is telling the world in his report.
[23:05:05] And since most people won't read that report, his testimony could be very important to informing people as to what actually he did say. All he has to do is go by the book.
LEMON: Yes. Listen, John Dean, remember Mueller disagreed with Barr's characterization of his report, saying that he got -- he got the context, the nature and the substance wrong. And Barr called Mueller's report snitty.
What do you think Congress, I said Congress is going to want to say to him would he have been charged with obstruction of justice if he were not president of the United States? What do you think that they want to ask him about?
DEAN: He may stay away from hypotheticals, given the position he's in. That puts him in an awkward position to answer hypotheticals. But that hypothetical was certainly answered today by 500 plus prosecutors if they face the decision how they would come down on it and that is they would prosecute.
LEMON: Well, that's what -- listen, over 500 former federal prosecutors say that they wouldn't -- you know, if he were not president, that he would have been charged. And so that will be interesting to hear Mueller's reasoning for that at least. Go on, Jon Sale.
SALE: Well, Don, I was assistant U.S. attorney here in the Southern District of New York and in Watergate and Miami where I live now. Prosecutive decisions cannot be made by a vote. It really -- the one person had that responsibility.
And if Mueller who plays it by the book, his charter was different from Watergate, was different from Ken Starr's. It said not may, it said he shall determine whether or not he is going to prosecute or use the word decline. And I think he didn't do that.
So, we're all speculating as to why. But I think he owed to the American people frankly. I think they did a great job. But I think he should have beaten the bullet and he should have said if he weren't president, I would prosecute him, if that's the case. LEMON: So, we had -- we had two former prosecutors who signed to this
letter early who -- one of them said explicitly the same thing that you're saying. The other one says he basically did say that but he just, he, -- you know, he wanted to, I guess be a little bit more judicious and didn't want to. He didn't because the president would not have the chance to defend himself had he said that.
SALE: well, that's right. But everyone is saying that he did not exonerate the president.
LEMON: Well, that's what I want to ask you.
SALE: Go on. I was trying --
LEMON: That's what I want to ask you. So, then they're going to want to ask him what was his intent? Why did he say he didn't exonerate the president?
SALE: There is, I've been doing this for a long time. I've been a criminal white-collar defense lawyer forever. I've yet to see an exoneration. There's no such thing. Prosecutors do not exonerate. They either charge or they close the file and decline. They don't exonerate. That's not what they do. So, everybody is talking about that. It's not part of what we all do. We're in this place --
LEMON: So why on earth did he do it? So why did he say that?
SALE: That was something in fairness to Barr, in Barr's four-page letter, whatever you want to call it. He added the president is not exonerated. well, that was something in fairness to Barr which we're not emphasizing.
LEMON: What do you say, John Dean, you want to weigh in on that?
DEAN: Well, I would say that Barr was doing it to try to spin the public impression of what was in the report and did a pretty effective good job of spinning it. And that's why I think Mueller needs to testify.
LEMON: Yes. So, John Dean, over the weekend, speaking of that, the president tweeted falsely. "There are no high crimes, no misdemeanors, there's no collusion, no conspiracy, no obstruction. All the crimes are on the other side and that's what the Dems should be looking at but they won't. Nevertheless, the tables are turning."
So, he says the crimes are on the other side. But today, it was trump's former attorney who went to prison. is he projecting here?
DEAN: You know, Don, what I think he's doing and if he does it is to go after the prosecutors. That's a form of obstruction. And he can't do that. And this is an ongoing situation. Watch what he does with the Congress and how he handles it. Watch what
he does with Cohen. Watch where he handles himself. He's still very much under the eye of the Congress now that has the power to impeach him.
LEMON: Yes. Jon Sale, I know you want to weigh in, but let me just play in and then I'll get you to weigh in.
LEMON: Because this is what Michael Cohen said before reporting to prison today. Check it out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL COHEN, FORMER DONALD TRUMP'S ATTORNEY: I hope that when I rejoin my family and friends, that the country will be in a place without xenophobia, injustice, and lies at the helm of our country. There still remains much to be told. And I look forward to the day that I can share the truth.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So, I want to hear what you have to say. But he's saying there's more to be told. What do you think that is?
SALE: I would -- if you have enough time, I would like to hear John Dean tell me if --
LEMON: I don't have enough time.
SALE: Well --
SALE: -- to be continued. If he, after he was sentenced, would ever go out and hold a press conference.
[23:10:00] What Michael Cohen is saying is reduce my sentence and I'm going to tell whatever I have to. I would -- if they're relying on Michael Cohen, they have a very thin case.
LEMON: We'll make enough time for him to answer that. You want an answer? Go ahead, John Dean.
DEAN: Yes. What I -- the special prosecutor he's even asked me not to write a book and I agreed not to do that even though I had a very large contracts dangled in front of me. I waited until we cleaned everything up. Until I decided to speak out.
And the record, I think it was -- that was the right way to do it. If Lanny Davis, his lawyer had asked me about that press conference, I'd say don't do that, Lanny.
SALE: So, John and I agree which is a nice job.
LEMON: Yes. Thank you. It was a fascinating conversation.
SALE: Thanks, Don.
LEMON: I really enjoyed it. I love having you on set. We love having you on.
SALE: My pleasure.
LEMON: And of course, John Dean, we love having you as well and getting both your perspectives.
In the case in Washington, is the case in Washington, I should say, distracting us from rising tensions with North Korea and Iran? And what is the president's foreign policy anyway? We're going to dig into that. That's next.
[23:15:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: They say chaos in Washington masking serious and dangerous foreign policy issues the U.S. is facing around the world. That includes rising tensions with Iran which President Trump's National Security Advisor, John Bolton, calls troubling.
I want to bring in now Susan Glasser and Max Boot. Max is the author of "The Corrosion of Conservatism: Why I Left the Right."
Good evening to both of you. Thank you. Happy Monday to both of you.
Max, I want to start with your recent column. And here's what you wrote and I quote. You said, "This nation is at the mercy of a criminal administration." Why do you say that?
MAX BOOT, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Well, that's my assessment, Don, of where we stand with President Trump. Now you've seen in the Mueller report that the special counsel found that Trump was guilty of multiple counts of obstruction of justice.
We now have over 500 former federal prosecutors coming forward to say that Trump would have been indicted if he were not president. And yet, Trump is compounding his flouting of the law by refusing to comply with congressional subpoenas.
And just now we have Steve Mnuchin, the secretary of the treasury refusing to hand over the Trump tax returns that he is legally obligated to hand over.
And so this is another high crime on misdemeanor, another ground for impeachment, and yet the problem is there is not going to be impeachment because, Republicans in the Senate like the O.J. Simpson jury will protect Trump no matter what the evidence says.
And in fact, in all likelihood, the Democrats will not even push forward with impeachment in the House. They will try to enforce their subpoenas through the court system but it could take years to accomplish that.
And so, at the end of the day there's really no way to make President Trump comply of the law short of actually voting him out of office and that won't occur at a minimum for another 18 months.
And so that's why I said that we're really at the mercy of a criminal administration headed by a president who has clearly broken the law and so far, has not paid a price for it.
LEMON: You also write this. You said. "We are left with the dismaying likelihood that the president will now feel emboldened to commit ever greater transgressions to hold on to power and thus, delay a possible post-presidential indictment." Right? So --
BOOT: Yes. I think that's a real concern. I mean, there was some reporting a few days ago in "The New York Times" that President Trump and Rudy Giuliani are trying to instigate a Justice Department investigation of Joe Biden on this trumped-up charges in Ukraine which suggests that they are trying to weaponize the legal system against their opponent, just as Trump already called for the Justice Department to investigate Hillary Clinton.
Now he's trying to do the same with his leading rival in the 2020 election. This is a very dangerous moment where if he's gotten away with high crimes and misdemeanors already, he's going to feel embolden, I think to do more the same.
Because he knows that as soon as he leaves office, he faces the very real prospect of indictment. And so, he has a real incentive to double down on his law breaking so can stay in office.
LEMON: Susan, with all of the chaos in Washington, it's easy to lose sight of rising tensions beyond our borders like North Korea testing missiles, tension hating up with Iran. Trump refusing to warn Putin about staying out of our election. What is Trump's foreign policy right now?
SUSAN GLASSER, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Good question. Well, you know, one point I think that's important to make, Don, is that those events you mentioned, Iran, North Korea, tensions there, they're not unrelated to Trump.
These are not things that just would be organically happening in the world anyways if we were not all distracted and focused on things in Washington.
Those are direct responses to the disruption that President Trump has essentially unleashed on the world when it comes to his foreign policy.
In North Korea, for example, this is exactly what you could have predicted would occur after the collapse of Trump's negotiations with Kim Jong-un in Hanoi. You know, there was this very embarrassing failed superpower summit, essentially nuclear summit, I should say, that North Korea is definitely not a superpower. And as a result of that, Kim Jong-un has restarted missile testing. This appeared to be short range rather than long range intercontinental ballistic missiles. Why? It seems to me that he's desperately looking for a way to get Trump, not only back to the negotiating table, but trying to find a way to signal that the U.S. needs to change its negotiating position.
Kim has said he is giving it until the end of the year in these talks, otherwise, presumably he'll restart and more aggressively his nuclear development program.
So, I think that is an example of a direct consequence of Trump's very aggressive and in time cases reckless foreign policy in the world.
[23:19:57] When it comes to Iran, this is actually the one-year anniversary more or less of the administration's decision to pull out of the Iran nuclear deal which was negotiated not only by the United States but by five other leading world power. Even though Iran was judged to be in compliance with the terms of the agreement by international monitors.
What's happened in the year since then? A lot of tough talk, a lot of bluster, a lot of rhetoric, and essentially what we've done is we've really just continued to open up a further rift between the United States and its European allies who remain partners in the deal with Iran.
And now you have a situation where John Bolton, the national security advisor is announcing the deployment of an aircraft carrier in the Gulf, which he says is in response to the Iranian provocations.
Well, again, usually it's the Pentagon or the president himself, you know, who makes such decisions, not the national security advisor who's supposed to be a staffer. I think it tells you where some of the saber rattling and bluster is coming from.
LEMON: Max, the Secretary of State, Mike Pompeo met with his Russian counterpart today, Sergey Lavrov then he said he told him that it's, quote, "not appropriate for Russia to meddle in U.S. elections. Why can't the president just say that to Putin?
BOOT: That's a great question, Don. That's the big question nobody can answer, even after the release of the Mueller report.
I mean, just last week you had yet another conversation between Trump and Putin which, according to the Kremlin lasted 90 minutes, and yet, Trump admitted that he never challenged Putin on whether he's going to interfere in the 2020 election. He never warned him away from further interference in the U.S. election.
Instead, Trump claimed that he reveled with Putin in the dismissal of the so-called Russian hoax. And you kind of have to wonder why isn't Trump being tougher on Putin if only in his own self-interest because it would be to his political advantage to call out Putin, to act tough, to bluster, to denounce Putin's interference. Because it would basically make these questions about what does Putin
have on Trump that would -- it would make those questions go away. But Trump refuses to do it. He just will not talk tough about Putin and so you have this bizarre situation where he was even vouching for Putin in Venezuela at the same time that his Secretary of State Mike Pompeo was calling out Russia, and rightfully so, for its interference in Venezuela to prop up the Maduro regime.
And Trump was basically giving Putin a clean bill of health. That it's just puzzling and, you know, this reminds me that we still don't know the results of the FBI counterintelligence investigation of Putin, we still don't know, of Trump, rather. We still don't know what's in Trump's finances.
And those are all questions but I think we need to have answered so we have better clarity on the nature of the Trump/Putin relationship.
LEMON: Yes. Thank you both, I appreciate your time.
A new poll shows the president at an all-time high for his approval rating but there is one big caveat.
Plus, what could be the key to the president winning a second term or not?
[23:25:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: With a booming economy continuing to create jobs and the unemployment rate at a 50-year low, President Trump says he'll run for reelection next year on the strength of the economy. But will voters in important swing states that he won in 2016 like Michigan give him four more years?
CNN's Miguel Marquez takes a look.
MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Saginaw, Michigan. For several years now the once thriving industrial city growing again. Many Republicans here credit the president.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I believe that the economy is going to help him take victory again in 2020.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MARQUEZ: Early in his 2016 run then candidate Trump campaigned here. It paid off. He carried Saginaw County by a little more than a point after Barack Obama won it by double digits in his two runs.
Trump became the first Republican since Ronald Reagan in 1984 to capture Michigan by a margin, a fewer than 11,000 votes.
Construction here booming with projects started long before 2016.
This is all electrical here. Instrumentation. MARQUEZ: Jimmy Greene trains apprentices for the construction
industry. In 2012 he had 126 trainees. Today, he has over 600.
MARQUEZ: Have you seen new big projects in Saginaw since the 2016 election?
JIMMY GREENE, PRESIDENT & CEO, ASSOCIATED BUILDERS AND CONTRACTORS: No.
MARQUEZ: Greene, a life-long moderate Republican he is no fan of the president, who he says will have a tough time repeating his Saginaw County win in 2020.
How big does the economy factor into the 2020 race?
GREENE: It is the factor. There is absolutely nothing else that President Trump can hold his to hang his hat on.
MARQUEZ: Still the unemployment rate here lagging the historically low 3.6 percent national average. In the worst of the recession, Saginaw County saw nearly 14 percent unemployment. Today, it's around 5 percent.
MARQUEZ: How important a place like Saginaw going to be in 2020?
STEVE GERHARDT, CHAIR, SAGINAW COUNTY REPUBLICAN PARTY: From perspective, Miguel, this is ground zero.
MARQUEZ: He says voters will see through controversies in the Trump administration and base their vote on their pocket book.
GERHARDT: It's not so much asked the question are you better off? Make the statement. We are better off because we're together and we're moving this economy forward. With strength.
[23:29:59] MARQUEZ: Cody Smith, co-founder of Oracle Brewing says at least in the brewing world business could be better.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CODY SMITH, CO-FOUNDER, ORACLE BREWING: The last three years, we have went from 20 percent growth to about five percent growth here after a year.
MARQUEZ (voice-over): For now, he and Saginaw holding on and growing, both trying to diversify and looking forward to better days ahead.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MARQUEZ: One thing giving Democrats hope here is that Saginaw County voted for both the Democratic senator and governor in the midterms last year here in the county, but voters from both parties say that the economy will loom large in places like Saginaw that the president will need to win in 2020. Don?
LEMON: Miguel Marquez, thank you very much. Let's discuss now. Keith Boykin is here, Joe Lockhart.
Let's hear what you guys have to say. Hello. So, is it going to be -- it's the economy, stupid. Remember that in 2020? Is that what's going to happen?
JOE LOCKHART, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: If Trump had any discipline, maybe it would be. I don't have any confidence. I don't have any --
LEMON: Assuming the economy is going to hold up. Go on.
LOCKHART: Yeah. Listen, I think the Democrats would be silly to say the economy is terrible. I think what they got to focus on is who the economy is working for and who it is not working for. And if you look at in income inequality, it's growing. The tax cut which we pay for on a credit card is by and large working for corporations and investors, not the middle class.
So I think, you know, Keith and I go back a long way in the 1990s. We were creating more jobs. We had more growth. We had all levels of incomes rising in all of our socioeconomic groups. And we had a bunch of surplus (ph). We didn't put this all on a credit card for the next generation to pay for. So I think those are the issues that Democrats will have to focus on.
LEMON: You mean the 90s after Clinton or just during Clinton?
LOCKHART: During Clinton.
LEMON: Bush was after that and --
LOCKHART: Well, you know, we do have a recent history of Democrats -- you know, Obama saved the economy. This is a continuation of the Obama economy, of Democrats having to come in and clean up the mess Republicans have made. You know, with trillion dollar deficits, you know, this economy is bubble-like because the deficits will eventually smother it.
LEMON: Keith, I want to bring you in. This is a new Gallup poll. It shows that President Trump is at his highest approval rating yet, 46 percent, which is statistically similar to where Obama was. Obama was at 44 percent, 43 percent or 44 percent at the same point in his term.
So -- and we should note that this poll is conducted before. This is last week's clashes between House Democrats and Attorney General William Barr. How good a number is that for this president?
KEITH BOYKIN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I think it's a discouraging number for this president, for any president, because of the history and the trend line here. Donald Trump has never been above 50 percent in approval rating at any point in the poll averages, and he is the first president in modern history not to do that.
Every president comes in with some honeymoon where they have high poll ratings. He has never had that even after he took office. So I think that is discouraging for him.
If you also look at the margin of victory he had in 2016 and look at what happened in 2018, I think that spells trouble for him. In 2016, he won Michigan, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, those three states, by 77,000 votes. Those 46 electoral votes are what decided the election.
Now, you look at what happened in 2018 in Michigan, Wisconsin, and Pennsylvania, Democrats won all six races, the Senate races and the gubernatorial races.
LEMON: Trump wasn't on the ballot though.
BOYKIN: Yes but Democrats are also doing better in those places where not only Trump is not on the ballot, but Republicans were strong candidates. Scott Walker was --
LEMON: We're going to talk more about that. I'll have you guys for another segment. Do you think that the strong economic numbers, do you think that's behind his approval rating, approval numbers?
BOYKIN: I don't think the economic numbers really matter for Trump. I think for Trump -- I don't even know that the numbers have really varied or fluctuated that much. The American people have been pretty much consistent in the low to mid-40s of people who support Trump.
It may go up and down from week to week. It may some statistical fluctuation but it's really not significant. The reality is the majority of American people have never supported Donald Trump. They didn't vote for Donald Trump. They have never approved of him.
LEMON: So let me ask you because that was Trump's argument before. The economy was good when President Obama was leaving office.
LOCKHART: That's right.
LEMON: When Hillary Clinton --
LOCKHART: That's right.
LEMON: He set the table. He built this economy and Trump is continuing this economy. So he was saying, but everyone is not feeling this economy, it's not working for everyone. So can Democrats -- I've heard a lot of Democrats who are on the campaign trail are saying the same thing. Well, everyone is not feeling it. This isn't everybody's economy. Do you think they can --
LOCKHART: Yeah, and it's not a question of everybody -- it's a reality that everybody is not feeling it. If you look at the income levels, the vast majority of the tax cut went to the top one percent. The vast majority of the benefits of the economic growth went to the top one percent.
So the people who matter, the people in the middle and middle class have continued to get squeezed. They haven't seen big tax cuts. They haven't seen a big improvement or any improvement at all in their life. [23:35:02] And Keith is right. Trump's numbers are going to bounce around a little bit. They have averaged in the low 40s. That's with a booming economy --
LEMON: And sky rocketing deficit.
LOCKHART: And sky rocketing deficit. The reality is Trump is going to have difficulty winning because he's done nothing in his term to expand upon his base, to reach out to people in the middle who would like to see him go.
LEMON: All right. Both of you will stay with me. Democrats are trying to choose which voters they need to count on in 2020. Will it be younger, more liberal voters or the voters they lost to Trump last time around?
[23:39:58] LEMON: So the Democrats have a dilemma heading into 2020. Which group of voters will be the key to victory? Back with me now are Keith Boykin and Joe Lockhart. I mean, I guess all of them, right? Getting all of them would be a real key to victory.
OK, two schools of thought here, Keith, on how to beat President Trump in 2020. Do you appeal to the young, diverse voters, the energy of the party right now or take back those traditional working class voters Democrats who went for Trump in 2016? What do you think?
BOYKIN: I think you dance with the ones who brought you. I mean, people who have been loyal to the Democratic Party are the ones that you want to turn out to vote. That doesn't mean you disregard the concerns of other people who might come along, but you don't forget the people who have supported you all along.
Look at the history. Democrats have won the popular vote in six of the last seven elections. We also know that Hillary Clinton beat Donald Trump. We know that Barack Obama got more votes than Donald Trump. There is a record here that Democrats can base their election on for 2020. There's a model that shows you can get more votes than Donald Trump easily with a black candidate, with a woman candidate.
You don't necessarily have to have Joe Biden or a white male candidate although Joe Biden as a white male candidate could still beat Donald Trump. But the Democrats should find whoever the best candidate is, put that candidate out there, and let that candidate win the election against Trump.
LEMON: The candidate that speaks to the people in those states that need be won in Pennsylvania, Michigan and on and on, the best candidate who can speak to those folks, because remember, if you look at The New York Times' reporting and the research, the party is moderate, essentially.
The loudest voices are the ones that are being deemed by the right or maybe even some of them self-professed socialists. And the loud voices on Twitter are the people who really show up to the polls. It is the people who are not on Twitter, older people, moderate Democrats.
LOCKHART: Yeah. And the story of 2018 which was missed by a lot was moderate Democrats picked up the majority of the seats. I think 33 out of 40 of the House seats were in the primaries. The more liberal candidate was defeated by a more moderate in the primary and then elected to Congress. So I think the party is moderate.
The candidate who is able to do both is the one who is going to be able to win. You can't say that I'm going to run a campaign just to win back Trump Democrats, because the base constituent the Democratic Party, African-Americans, women, Latinos, women as a whole. If they don't show up in higher numbers than for Hillary Clinton, we won't win.
And the opposite is true. If you're Joe Biden and you can't appeal to young people who are going to turn out, then you won't win. So it's got to be someone who stands up and is able to appeal to the core constituency and the new voters that the Democrats have brought into the system.
LEMON: Listen, this is -- I want to put this. This is Pete Buttigieg. He gave a very candid answer when talking about his lack of support with black voters. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAYOR PETE BUTTIGIEG, SOUTH BEND, INDIANA: I need help. So the black voters who know me best, the people of South Bend, helped return me to office by an overwhelming margin. But out here, people are just getting to know me. There are folks who will find their way to me anywhere I go and there are folks who I will never connect with unless we reach out to them.
And yeah I can go and have lunch in Harlem at Sylvia's with Reverend Al Sharpton, and yeah I can go sit down with Charlamagne on "The Breakfast Club," but there are so many other different places and people that we need to find and reach, and I can't do it alone.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: I thought that was a pretty candid answer. It is pretty clear that Democrats aren't going to win without the support of people of color.
LEMON: One other key that can turn around in 2020. He had a very interesting thing there. He said, I can go to Sylvia's in Harlem and, you know, with Al Sharpton or I can go to -- and talk in "The Breakfast Club" with Charlamagne but -- what do you think?
BOYKIN: President Trump is the mayor of South Bend, Indiana. South Bend is 40 percent, I think, people of color or 40 percent African- American or something like that. He should have African-American supporters out there already. He should have people who can speak for him, vouch for him. He should have a record that he can call upon. He should be able to use that.
You can't, as a mayor of a small city, expect to introduce yourself to entire American population and to African-Americans in a year and a half campaign span if you don't have that track record already out there. So, I'm not confident quite frankly that Pete Buttigieg would be able to do that, especially in a place like South Carolina.
Remember, even Barack Obama ran for president in South Carolina and other states as well, African-Americans did not support Barack Obama, an African-American candidate.
LEMON: They didn't know him.
BOYKIN: Exactly. They didn't support him. So you think they're going to support --
LEMON: -- the Congressional Black Caucus --
BOYKIN: Of course. I just want to say, do you think they are not going to support Pete Buttigieg? You have to have -- they supported Hillary Clinton until Barack Obama won the Iowa caucuses. Black people said, oh, we should take a look at this guy, and that's when he started doing well.
[23:45:03] LEMON: Yeah. Listen, I live in Harlem. And there are -- people feel that he has to expand beyond. Reverend Sharpton is can get a lot of black folks. He has a machine behind him with the National Action Network. That is definitely legitimate. Charlamagne has a machine behind him when it comes to "The Breakfast Club," very popular morning show.
But you got to go beyond that, as you said. Is it pretty much incumbent to have that record before?
BOYKIN: I think you have to have the record before. I love Al Sharpton. I used to go on the show in different network. I like Charlamagne. I like the work that he is doing. I know he's been here on this network, too. But that's not all there is to black America. There are a lot of black people who don't listen to those shows.
LEMON: They're great platforms. You can't deny that.
BOYKIN: Exactly. They're great platforms. There are a lot of black people who don't go to black churches or a lot of black people who don't associate --
LEMON: Go to Sylvia's.
BOYKIN: They don't go to -- I haven't been to Sylvia's in 10 years.
LEMON: And you live in Harlem as well.
BOYKIN: There are other restaurants in Harlem besides Sylvia's, too. There is a lot more. You can't look like you're just pandering. Hillary Clinton got in trouble with this in 2016.
My students at Columbia used to question Hillary Clinton because of the comments she made on the radio show, "The Breakfast Club," about having hot sauce in her bag. They said, oh, she's stealing this from Beyonce. She's actually been doing this when she was in Arkansas as the first lady of Arkansas. But people especially young black voters, they're not going to trust any new person who comes along --
LEMON: I know you want to get in, buy let me ask you. Does he have a chance, you think, with the nomination? He has got senators Cory Booker and Kamala Harris. Vice President Joe Biden, he's tied with President Obama and has some --
LOCKHART: I'll tell you the reason. He does have a chance because if you look at South Carolina right now, Joe Biden is leading by double digits among African-Americans. It's not a prerequisite for African- American voters that you have to be African-American.
I interpreted his comments a little bit differently than I think you guys did, which is I think he was reaching out and saying, yes, I can do the Sharpton stuff and this, but I have to do way more. I have to -- you know, there are people -- he said, I think quote, there are people that won't come to me, that I have to go to them. And I think he was very candid and humble there. And the question is --
LEMON: I think you're right. I said -- I said -- I wasn't interpreting. I was asking question.
BOYKIN: Yeah, I agree with you in the interpretation. I'm just saying --
LEMON: I thought he was very candid in saying that I need help.
BOYKIN: Yeah. I'm just saying I don't think he has a good chance at doing this in the short time span he is allowed.
LOCKHART: I am not suggesting that he is going to do this. But remember, with Keith's point, winning Iowa, winning maybe in New Hampshire will give people a new look at him among all voters.
LEMON: It's still early. It's very early. Good luck to all of them (ph).
LEMON: We'll be right back. Thank you.
[23:50:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Buckingham Palace says Queen Elizabeth is delighted at the arrival of the newest member of the royal family. Prince Harry's wife, Meghan Markle, gave birth this morning. It's a boy -- to a boy, everyone, no word on his name.
I want to talk about this with -- you know him, you love him -- Bishop Michael Curry, the presiding bishop at The Episcopal Church who gave the sermon at Harry and Meghan's wedding last year. Hart to believe it's been a year, coming up on a year. Thank you so much.
MICHAEL CURRY, BISHOP, THE EPISCOPAL CHURCH: Yeah.
LEMON: Good to see you.
CURRY: Good to be here.
LEMON: So let's talk about this little bundle of joy. As you know, Meghan and Harry, Prince Harry and Meghan Markle, they are, shall we say, ground breakers, right, when you think about it. It's a half American baby. It's bi-racial in this monarchy in recent history, the first in recent history. Is it a big deal? How big a deal is it?
CURRY: Well, you know what, it's a big deal to any parent when a new baby comes into their life, and so just like any other family, it's a big deal. But it's a big deal because we all watched the wedding and everyone enjoyed and kind of celebrated with them as they began their life together as a family.
And now to have a baby born, you know, that's a cause for rejoicing any time, no matter who the baby is. And this baby's kind of special for all of us because we all saw his parents get married together.
CURRY: And that's a particular blessing.
LEMON: And we did, we saw the parents get married together. We said, listen, this is the modern times. The royal family knows that. The queen knows that, gave a blessing for the wedding. And so they're going to have a baby together. They're an interracial couple, big deal, this is 2019, don't you think?
CURRY: Yeah, yeah, yeah, two people fell in love, and their love has now given birth to a new child. There's an old Jewish saying that says every child who is born is a reminder that God is not finished with the world yet.
LEMON: How much --
CURRY: God's not finished with us yet. No matter how bad it gets, God is not finished with us yet.
LEMON: So listen, you know Meghan is very outspoken, very self- possessed, Harry as well. Do you think they're going to break with royal traditions in some ways in raising this baby or to be determined?
CURRY: I'm sure that's to be determined. I have no idea how they're going to do it. But the nice thing is, and I think -- I mean all of us who have watched them grow together know that they have their way of doing things. They honored the tradition of their family and their culture, but they have their way of doing things. And they have a habit of bringing a variety of worlds together.
LEMON: I'm glad you mentioned that because they are considering moving to Africa. I mean, you know them. What might appeal --
CURRY: Is that really true?
LEMON: Yeah. What do you think about Africa that might appeal to them?
CURRY: You know Africa is a lovely place. I don't know exactly where in Africa they might go. But, you know, Africa is a remarkable continent. It is a land that is growing in dynamic and wonderful and exciting.
[23:55:03] I'm sure it would be exciting for them to be there, be exciting for them to be in England, be exciting for them to be anywhere. Wherever the two of them make a family, it's going to be exciting and dynamic.
LEMON: Yes. Plus, listen, his mom did work all over the world. And he and both Meghan have done work in Africa. So I don't think it would be out of the realm of possibilities that they might take up residence, at least for a while or be there for a while.
Listen, I want to read some of the sermon that you gave at the wedding. You said, "The late Dr. Martin Luther King once said, and I quote: we must discover the power of love, the redemptive power of love, and when we do that we will make this old world a new world. For love is the only way."
You preach about race. You preach about civil right. You preach about love and unity. How does the birth of this baby factor into that message that you preached at their wedding?
CURRY: You know, that's a great question. This is why you do what you do. That is a great question because the truth is, this baby and what we must all do for this baby and every other child who is born into this world is to make a world where love is the law and the way of life, where unselfish, sacrificial love that seeks the good and welfare of others, sometimes even beyond my own desires and likes, but that really does seek the common good and the common well-being.
That's the kind of world that this child should grow up in and every child who comes into the world. You know, and we should rejoice and celebrate and give God thanks for them and pray God's blessing on them. But let's give God thanks for every child who's born and then, Don, let's work together to make the kind of world where that child is treated as a child made in the image and likeness of God, and where every child is treated that way.
This may be a moment, not just of celebration, but a moment for us to commit ourselves to each other and to our God and to making this a better world.
LEMON: And let the church say, amen.
CURRY: Amen, brother.
LEMON: You know when you're going to speak to them again?
CURRY: No, I don't. I have no idea. I'm going to send well wishes just like everybody else.
LEMON: Give them our regards. Thank you so much, bishop, always a pleasure.
CURRY: Always a joy to be with you.
LEMON: Thank you. And thank you for watching. Our coverage continues.