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New Day

Fight Escalates Between Trump and House Dems; Sen. Mazie Hirono (D-HI) is Interviewed about Barr's Refusal to Release Mueller Report. Aired 7-7:30a ET

Aired May 07, 2019 - 07:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: House Democrats have lost patience. They're moving towards a contempt vote.

[07:00:37] UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you're not going to follow the law, it's time for people to start having consequences.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I see this as a last gasp toward impeachment, which is going to fizzle out once the politics of this become evident.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Secretary Mnuchin will not fulfill that request for six years of the president's tax returns.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The reason they want President Trump's tax return is to try to further embarrass him.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is stone walling. That can't go on unless Congress is prepared to roll over and play dead.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Congress shouldn't be calling people's taxes just to find out if they can find dirt on the person.

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ANNOUNCER: This is NEW DAY with Alisyn Camerota and John Berman.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning and welcome to your NEW DAY. Could "contempt" be the word of the week? "No" certainly seems to be the word of the morning.

Treasury Secretary Steve Mnuchin is saying no to an official request from the House Ways and Means Committee to turn over the president's tax returns, saying it, quote, "lacks a legitimate legislative purpose." For what it's worth, there is a law, a law that says the IRS shall furnish the returns on requests from Congress.

Mnuchin's move sets the stage for a legal battle, one that could be a long legal battle over the president's taxes.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Meanwhile, Justice Department officials and House Judiciary Committee staff will meet today to try to work out a deal for a congressional access to the Mueller report.

This comes ahead of a planned vote tomorrow on whether to hold Attorney General William Barr in contempt for defying that subpoena to turn over the full, unredacted Mueller report to Congress.

Joining us now to discuss this and more, we have David Gregory, CNN political analyst; Brianna Golodryga, CNN contributor; and Jeffrey Toobin, CNN chief legal analyst.

Jeffrey --

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN CHIEF LEGAL ANALYST: Yes.

CAMEROTA: -- once and for all, is Congress entitled to see the full, unredacted Mueller report or not?

TOOBIN: Well, let's -- let's put it this way: there has never been a court, ever, that has said Congress is not entitled to a tax return that they asked for.

CAMEROTA: No, no, first -- first, let's do the Mueller report. First, the Mueller report.

TOOBIN: Oh, I'm sorry. The Mueller report.

CAMEROTA: Isn't there precedent that things like the Starr report -- I know it's different -- but are released to Congress? So are they in the right when they want to see the unredacted report?

TOOBIN: That one is a little bit of a closer question, the Mueller report. Because grand jury material usually requires a separate court order in order to be disclosed outside of a certain enumerated list of people. That court order has not been obtained.

If the Justice Department wanted to cooperate, if the Justice Department wanted to share -- share the Mueller report, there's no doubt that they could. They could set the process in motion. They haven't done it. But in terms of a subpoena, I think that issue is closer than the tax return issue.

BERMAN: Well, let's talk about the tax returns.

TOOBIN: OK.

BERMAN: Because we seem to be served a feast of "no" this morning.

TOOBIN: Right.

BERMAN: The Tax returns are a separate issue. It is a law that they shall be furnished --

CAMEROTA: Yes.

BERMAN: -- to Congress upon request. Any legal basis to withhold them? TOOBIN: That one seems, to me, a very simple issue. As you say, the

law says shall furnish. They haven't furnished the tax returns. This idea that Congress needs some specific legislative purpose which, by the way, I think they have anyway.

But the idea that -- that the administration can look at the motives of Congress, as opposed to simply the result of the voting in the Ways and Means Committee, seems to me wrong under the law. But as you pointed out in your introduction, a long legal fight.

All of these issues, once they go into court, even if Congress is correct on the law and wins, is likely to delay for many months. And we are now, you know, a year and a half away from the election.

CAMEROTA: So David Gregory, some of this stuff is being negotiated today, this morning, on Capitol Hill. But if they can't work it out, and if it leads to contempt, what is the significance of some of these high-profile officials being held in contempt?

DAVID GREGORY, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, we've seen it before in the Obama administration, Attorney General Holder held in contempt over that Fast and Furious controversy around border issues. It was seen as largely that, a symbolic move.

I think you've got two sides here. You've got congressional Democrats and you've got an administration, both think the other side looks really bad in this fight. And so they're looking at the politics of it. They're looking at, you know, the larger implications of accountability on the Democrat side, versus you know, fishing is the view on the administration's side.

[07:05:09] And so again, they both think they -- each other looks bad. I do think there's a chance that the Justice Department would like to diffuse this a little bit and -- and come to some kind of accommodation. And to me, the larger question, too, for Democrats is, what is the end game that they're driving at? Do they want to initiate impeachment proceedings, or do they want to keep churning and keep elevating the idea of accountability, where there's not been a lot of accountability of this administration?

BERMAN: But accountability might be an end, in and of itself. You might not need impeachment.

GREGORY: Yes.

BERMAN: Let me just say, that is a good point you're bringing up there. There are two numbers I want to raise here. One, you were talking about Fast and Furious, where Eric Holder was held in contempt, ultimately, most of the documents Congress wanted they got, but it took three years. Three years.

So time there matters. The other number that I think matters a lot this morning, Bianna, is the president's approval rating. Gallop has a new poll out this morning. Forty-six percent approval, which is still underwater, but it's the highest number that he has been in in the Gallup poll. Other polls show the same thing. The president's approval has

definitely ticked up. So if you're in the White House or his political operation right now, why not fight it? You're looking at these numbers saying, hey, people like what I'm doing with this fight, or where things are. Why not just keep going?

BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Especially on the heels of the good economic report we got last week. We have GDP growth continuing at better-than-expected rates.

And then you've also got a very good jobs report. And the unemployment rate is at decades low. And so you have a president who says, on the one hand, look at what the Democrats are doing. They can't find any other issue to take up with me, so they're on this witch hunt to get my tax returns. Nothing is ever good enough for them. Why don't they stop at the Mueller report? It's already out, yet they still want more.

So their strategy is to stonewall. The president, meantime, is saying, look what I've done for the country. Look at the economy. And if the Democrats want to impeach me, you can't impeach me, because the economy is doing so well.

Bill Clinton would have said, "Hey, I have something to say about that theory, too."

BERMAN: "I'm old enough to remember when I was impeached."

BIANNA: That having been said, people may disagree with the president's rhetoric, with some of his actions, with a lot of his tweets, but if they feel comfortable enough with where they stand economically, they may be able to overlook that.

CAMEROTA: So it's dicey for Democrats to figure out what the path forward should be. They feel quite justified in their oversight role, but they recognize that -- that they may be causing the president's approval ratings to go up.

TOOBIN: I doubt the -- the investigations by Congress are causing the approval ratings to go up.

CAMEROTA: Right. Why don't you think that it is the fact that people -- that what the president's narrative is that "We're done. People have seen it all. And I won."

TOOBIN: First of all, we're talking about, like, a very small change in an approval rating that has hardly changed at all since Donald Trump became president. So that the idea that, you know, the American public watching Jerry Nadler and saying, no, I don't think that he's not a good chairman of the Judiciary Committee. I'm skeptical of that.

CAMEROTA: Do you think it is economic based?

TOOBIN: Yes. I think the times are good in the country, and the president gets credit for it. I don't -- but the idea that -- you know, this is different from what went on in the Obama administration, when Eric Holder was held in contempt.

Those document requests, those oversight requests were the subject of negotiation with Congress. There's been no negotiation here. There has simply been no, on everything, on security clearances, on background checks, on --

CAMEROTA: Taxes.

TOOBIN: -- taxes. And you know, Congress either exists as a separate branch of government or it doesn't. And Congress is trying to assert its role. And I just don't think the approval ratings have anything to do with that.

GREGORY: Well, I agree with Jeffrey to some extent. I mean, I think that the big overhang here is the economy being strong, the markets being strong. What people should be really worried about is all this brinksmanship with China and a prolonged trade war. That's what people are really spooked about in terms of the effect on the financial markets and the broader economy.

But I think that this is not a big macro game right now. And I think that, you know, what the Judiciary Committee does with regard to questions of obstruction, impeachment, accountability, and then on a separate track, the tax returns, you know, that's a fight.

And there are constituencies for this. I mean, the context of a primary fight on the Democratic side means that there is an activated Democratic constituency that does want to see accountability of this president. That wants to see aggressive candidates saying, "We're going to really hold this president, his feet to the fire."

On the other side, you have Republicans who are united around Trump. You know, I heard the other day that they've got a financial operation, a bundling operation for campaign contributions, very similar to what President Bush did.

It is a sign of the Republican ranks being united behind this president. That's a very healthy, strong sign for a president who is heading into a re-election campaign.

BERMAN: It's like the Bush Rangers. And we'll talk about that with Maggie Haberman in a little bit, for sure. She's got some reporting on it.

[07:10:06] And Bianna, I just want to put one last fine point on this, though. The Democrats had been threatening contempt now for weeks. They have been threatening action in the courts for weeks. And it hasn't happened yet.

So is there a risk, and David was mentioning there is a groundswell from Democratic activists, they want to see some action. Do Democrats have to do something?

GOLODRYGA: Well, this puts them in a tough spot. Because their mind shouldn't be based around 2020 solely. Right? They have a job to do. They are a co-equal branch of government. Whereas Bill Barr says, my job is to defend the office of the presidency.

Congress says, our job is to set a precedent here, as well, and to uphold the law. We don't want future Congresses, future presidents to have to be stuck in this same type of situation. We have a job to do. We have laws to uphold.

So how much much pressure should we be putting on this administration to follow through, versus how much should we be focusing on pressure we're getting from our constituents? It's a very tough line they're in right there. And this administration is not helping at all by not budging and giving them an inch at all.

CAMEROTA: Let's talk about this letter. Now signed, at last check, by 566 former federal prosecutors.

BERMAN: Do you have the counter on your computer?

CAMEROTA: Yes, I do.

BERMAN: Because it keeps going up.

CAMEROTA: I keep it in my head. I keep it in my head. But they felt so strongly about what they saw in the Mueller report that they felt compelled to write a letter and sign it.

Here is just a portion of that. "Each of us believes that the conduct of President Trump described in Special Counsel Robert Mueller's report would, in the case of any other person, not covered by the Office of Legal Counsel policy against indicting a sitting president, result in multiple felony charges for obstruction of justice."

Elie Honig, one of our contributors, was just on here. He's one of the people who signed it. And he made the point that, with 566 -- it can't be 566 angry Democrats, as the president likes to say. These are Republicans. These are non-partisan people. These are law enforcement officials.

TOOBIN: It's not even law professors who are a notoriously liberal group. This is former federal prosecutors. I'm one of them, and I you know, spent years in the Justice Department. And I know what my colleagues were like, and these were not, like, angry Democrats. These were, basically, people who devoted much of their lives to law enforcement.

And you know, when you sit down and read the Mueller report, as I have over the past week after the, like, sort of chaos of it just coming out.

I mean, you know, what you get out of the second part is a picture of a concerted effort by the president to obstruct this investigation from even before the day he took office, throughout the period covered by there.

And you know, it is true that it is a unique situation because, you know, an ordinary person, who is under investigation for obstruction of justice, can't fire the FBI director. The president is in a unique position.

But certainly, if you compare it to Richard Nixon, if you compare it to -- to Bill Clinton, both of whom were accused of obstruction of justice, the evidence in the Mueller report is greater than either one of those, I think. And that's why you get that bipartisan reaction.

BERMAN: And David Gregory, if Robert Mueller is asked, in congressional testimony, is this evidence enough to indict someone who is not president of the United States, do you think he would give a simple "yes" or "no" answer?

GREGORY: I don't know. I mean, I would be inclined to say "no," because he didn't. And he didn't, perhaps out of an abundance of caution, out of an abundance of wanting to be fair to the president, who didn't have a form to challenge his accusers.

But I think the drama underneath these questions, this -- this ultra- hypothetical, because we are talking about the president, this isn't any other case, is you know, why didn't Mueller push, no matter how long it took, to get the president under oath, so that he could ask questions that may have gone to the question of intent?

Did Barr, as he said, really talk to Mueller, and Mueller said, "Well, you know, I really wouldn't have brought these charges anyway"?

I mean, this is now going to be the drama and the inquest that plays out on Capitol Hill, to try to get underneath, you know, this big question of why not? Why not pursue it? And I think it does go to the point of saying, this is not a criminal case. This is an issue of potential impeachment. These are -- because it's a president, a question of high crimes and demeanors, not a question of whether you would have brought the case criminally.

GOLODRYGA: Which is why it may be a more productive tactic at this point for Democrats to push to hear from Mueller, as opposed to this ongoing battle with Barr.

Barr already said that he has no problem with Mueller speaking. Barr is Mueller's boss at this point, until Mueller decides to become a private citizen and leave the Justice Department. So for Democrats to go ahead and pursue that route, and to say we must hear from Mueller, may be a wiser tactic.

CAMEROTA: Is he waiting for his paycheck? I mean, why is -- why is he still an employee?

GOLODRYGA: It's so frustrating, though. Imagine, two years of your life devoted to this investigation. He didn't need to do this. He did this, right? We thought this would clear everything up once we got the Mueller report.

[07:15:08] You know, I think we were a bit too optimistic in that thought process. And here we are, just as confused. I would imagine that this is frustrating for him.

BERMAN: We know it's for him, because he wrote a letter. GOLODRYGA: And a phone call.

CAMEROTA: All right. Thank you all, very much.

So she called on Attorney General William Barr to step down during a fiery speech for his handling of the Mueller report. Now, she is calling for an investigation into the attorney general's communications with the White House. Senator Mazie Hirono joins us next.

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CAMEROTA: You will remember last week when a Democratic senator delivered very strong words to Attorney General William Barr and called for his resignation.

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SEN. MAZIE HIRONO (D-HI): Now, the American people know that you are no different from Rudy Giuliani or Kellyanne Conway or any of the other people who sacrificed their once decent reputation for the grifter and liar who sits in the Oval Office. You know the difference, but you've chosen to be the president's lawyer and side with him over the interests of the American people.

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CAMEROTA: OK. Joining us now is that senator, Mazie Hirono.

Good morning, Senator.

HIRONO: Good morning.

CAMEROTA: OK, so Bill Barr does not appear to be resigning, and so now it sounds like you are calling for the inspector general to look into his communications -- Bill Barr's communications with the White House. What are you hoping to find out?

HIRONO: We have concerns about the 14 referrals that Mueller made to other prosecutors. And we want to make sure that neither Barr nor the White House will interfere with those investigations.

CAMEROTA: OK. Is the inspector general going to look into this?

HIRONO: I don't know. But let's hope so, because somebody should be adhering and concerning -- concerned about the rule of law. And I have to say, Alisyn, that that was the most disheartening aspect of the Barr testimony, that he does not adhere to the rule of law. He thinks that the president can do basically whatever he wants. If the president thinks he's innocent, he can do whatever he wants to stop an investigation. And certainly, this president did.

CAMEROTA: Look, the attorney general, Bill Barr, has been on record, in fact, he was certainly, on record in the 19-page unsolicited memo that he wrote, about how much he believes in executive powers.

HIRONO: Yes.

CAMEROTA: And now we're seeing that play out.

And I just want to bounce off for you the latest Gallup polls. Because the president has reached a high-water mark in his approval. OK, so he is now at 46 percent. Still under 50 percent, underwater. However, this is notable, because it's the highest that he has reached.

And so what do you think is causing the president, despite all of these investigations, and the results of the Mueller report, where do you -- why do you think his number has ticked up?

HIRONO: I don't know. But there's no question that the president and all his minions continue to call this a witch hunt. And they're going after Mueller in a big way. And so you get what you get.

But as members of Congress, we have a responsibility to oversee what this White House and this administration is doing. And I can only hope that, as the months go by, that the American people will wake up to the fact that our democracy is in danger.

Because let's face it, the kind of conversation that the president recently had with Putin, where the subject of Russian interference with the elections doesn't even come up, why do you think? I think that there is -- there is very little question that Putin will continue to do everything he can to support this president in 2020. And I think that is a very sad commentary.

And let's hope that, with people worrying about health care and with all the other things that concern the American people, that maybe this will also impinge -- I can only hope.

But we are going to continue to do our jobs. You can bet that I will continue to speak up. Thank goodness that we have some level of checks and balances, with the Democrats in control of the House. And I hope that they will proceed with the investigations that they need to do.

CAMEROTA: Well, let's talk about what's happening in your committee. So that's the Senate Judiciary Committee. And your chairman, Lindsey Graham, was once a vocal Trump critic.

HIRONO: Yes.

CAMEROTA: But now he is an ardent supporter. However, he has said that, in a very limited scope, he would be willing to hear from Robert Mueller. Congress wants to hear from Robert Mueller. They want to know why he made the choices that he did.

But Lindsey Graham, Senator Lindsey Graham has said that he -- he would be willing to have Robert Mueller testify publicly about the phone call, only the phone call, that he made to Bill Barr about what he was hoping the findings of the Mueller report would be.

Are you satisfied with that, or at least satisfied enough as a starter, to start there?

HIRONO: We can start there. Because during Barr's testimony, he characterized the conversation he had with Mueller on that telephone -- 15-minute telephone call. And that's just from Barr's standpoint; let's call it hearsay. So we should hear from Mueller as to that aspect.

But more importantly, as far as I think we all should be concerned is the whole discussion about obstruction of justice. And note that over 500 former prosecutors have signed a letter, saying that based on the -- Mueller's report on the obstruction of justice in that discussion, that they believe that Trump should be prosecuted, but for the Office of Legal Counsel opinion, which by the way, we should -- they should review.

CAMEROTA: We have been reading portions of that letter. The number is now up to 5 -- 566. But what are you hearing, Senator, in the halls of Congress? Is Robert Mueller going to come and testify this month?

HIRONO: Well, I hope he comes and testifies, even if in a limited fashion, before the Senate. But I am looking toward the House, doing what they need to do to have Mueller come and testify before them. They've asked for material from Don McGahn, who should also testify.

[07:25:10] So as I said, this president has managed to gain control, basically, of the entire executive, as well as half of Congress. And that would be the Senate. I think that is a sad state of affairs. He hasn't quite gotten control of the House. And therefore, you see the kind of investigations that's happening.

I just want to mention one more thing, Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

HIRONO: The House is passing a lot of bills that actually help people in this country, such as let's reform our campaign spending laws. Let's -- let's have some reasonable gun legislation. These -- these measures are all coming out of the U.S. House now. And Mitch McConnell pretty much is saying, none of that will pass.

Now, that's what I call obstruction. That's what I call not adhering to what the people in this country really want us to do.

CAMEROTA: And very quickly, should Bill Barr and Don McGahn be held contempt if they don't turn over the documents that Congress is looking for?

HIRONO: I think that Jerry Nadler, particularly, will take whatever actions he needs to take, because you cannot just thumb your nose at the -- at Congress and you're in the clear. So we shall see.

I hope that the Judiciary Committee in the House will take appropriate actions.

CAMEROTA: All right. HIRONO: But we have to see, because Don McGahn still has some time in order to comply.

CAMEROTA: Yes. I mean, they're negotiating today, but it sounds like, if they don't get what they want, they're moving in that direction. And you would support that?

HIRONO: I think -- I think they have to. Because there is such a thing as the rule of law.

CAMEROTA: Senator Mazie Hirono, thank you very much for being on NEW DAY.

HIRONO: Good morning.

CAMEROTA: John.

BERMAN: He trained the horse that won the Kentucky Derby. So how does it feel when a big chunk of the country, including the president, now say you don't deserve it? The trainer of Country House joins us next.

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