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Comey Speaks Out About Investigating Trump; Washington's Epidemic of Situational Ethics; Colorado Mass Shooting Survivors Speak Out. Aired 8:30-9a ET

Aired May 10, 2019 - 08:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:30:00] ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Out and so everybody, you know, seems him through whatever lens they want to see him. But it's still interesting to hear him be so unplugged about how he feels about some of the people in the Justice Department and his take on them.

For instance, Phil, as you say, Rod Rosenstein. Shan, you know, it's been hard to know sometimes where Rod Rosenstein -- which side Rod Rosenstein is on, you know? He reportedly was willing to wear a wire because he was so concerned by what he was seeing in the White House, but then he writes the cover letter for firing James Comey.

So here is how James Comey feels about Rod Rosenstein.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAMES COMEY, FORMER FBI DIRECTOR: I think people like that, like Rod Rosenstein, who are people of accomplishment, but not real, sterling character, strong character, find themselves trapped.

And so they start to make little compromises to stay on the team, eco his words, use the term "spying," talk about collusion, or just be silent, thinking that's what I need to do to survive, and in the process he has eaten their soul.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: Yes. Your thoughts?

SHAN WU, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, I think we're seeing a shift on our view of Rosenstein. I think there was a time everyone thought he might be the standup guy, being the hero, the idea of wearing the wire out of a sense of conscience. I think now -- at least my view, and I wrote a piece on this, is that he's more of a person looking for the best political cover. He -- I think his epitaph at the Justice Department might be, he kept his job.

When things were looking questionable for the administration, you can now say, well, he wanted to wear a wire to help the right side. On the other hand, when it looked like they were going to stay in power, he's like, let me help you fashion the cover letter for it.

So, at the end of the day, he's still there. He gets to leave on his own terms. But in terms of his credibility as a person of conscience, I think that's kind of gone downhill.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: It's not strong character is how James Comey described it there in his own words.

WU: Right.

BERMAN: I want to get your take, Shan, also on Comey's legal analysis here of the Mueller report. And I do want to point out to people, he was the deputy attorney general. James Comey was a, you know, a revered lawyer.

WU: Oh, yes.

BERMAN: For a long, long time. He says he saw clear evidence of obstruction and laid out in part 2 of the report, and this is what he said about criminal and corrupt intent.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANDERSON COOPER, MODERATOR: Do you think he had criminal intent based on what you have seen now in the Mueller report?

COMEY: It sure looks like he did in connection with a couple episodes, the direction to Don McGahn to get the special counsel fired is, to my mind, a flaming example of --

COOPER: Of corrupt intent?

COMEY: Yes, of corrupt intent.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: And, again, this is apart from his firing. He's taking a look at the ten instances laid out by Robert Mueller and saying, yes, obstruction, yes, corrupt intent.

WU: I think he's exactly right on that. Almost to a person, most former prosecutors, as soon as they began to hear of the incidents all thought this looked like obstruction. So I completely agree with him on that point.

I think the only real mystery about that is, why didn't Mueller just make it more explicit that the real reason they chose not to recommend charging was the OLC opinion. That's the only question mark that remains.

CAMEROTA: Phil, let's talk about the dossier, because that's what so many Republicans are still focused on. You know, they think that -- that it was all sort of a sham. And so it -- Anderson Cooper brought it up last night and he reminded -- James Comey reminded viewers that it wasn't like when the dossier is handed over to the FBI, they just take it hook, line and sinker and, well, case closed. They investigated everything that was in the dossier and corroborated most of it, though, the most salacious parts, they were unable to corroborate. They have always been honest about that. They were honest to Donald Trump, president-elect, about that. But, James Comey admitted he still has some doubt, or I guess some suspicion, at what the Russians may have on President Trump.

So here is that moment about leverage.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: Do you think the Russians have leverage over President Trump?

COMEY: I don't know the answer to that.

COOPER: Do you think it's possible?

COMEY: Yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: What did you hear?

PHIL MUDD, CNN COUNTERTERRORISM ANALYST: Boy, this is where I think Mr. Comey slips. Look, I read the entire transcript. I'm an early evening guy. I was sleeping during the actual event, I'll confess that up front.

I read the entire transcript. And when I got to that point, I stumbled. The FBI traditionally says, here are the facts. Let's start with the facts first and then we'll conclude with the judgment. Comey could have easily answered that question by saying, look, I don't have any facts to support that. And without facts, I can't draw a conclusion. Instead, he speculates or steps into it by saying maybe.

Why is he saying maybe? Does he have evidence that suggests that the Russians have information. I think Mr. Comey has a point to make. I think he's an honorable man. But when he starts with judgment instead of starting with facts, I think he's in trouble. And he's done that on day one. When he talked about Hillary Clinton, talks about his judgments about her use of an e-mail server without talking about whether he was going to charge her. He said he wasn't. Why did he speak? Facts first, Mr. Comey, that's what I'd say.

BERMAN: All right, Phil Mudd, Shan Wu, thanks so much for being with us. I appreciate it.

And, thank you, Phil, for brings us up to speed on your habits in the evening.

[08:35:01] CAMEROTA: I am fascinated about Phil's habits. More on that later, I hope.

All right, hypocrisy. Our elected leaders in Washington, well, sometimes they define it, but you never knew just how bad it was until today's eye-opening "Reality Check."

BERMAN: But, first, a look at a CNN special close to our hearts, "Champions for Change. This time anchors and correspondents will introduce you to people making a difference who have left a lasting impression on all of us.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Some people --

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Some stories --

ERIN BURNETT, CNN ANCHOR: Are so powerful --

ALISON CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: They leave their mark.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: Nobody has ever affected me the way your son did.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: Their work creates real impact.

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: On their communities --

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: On their country --

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: On us all.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Meet the change makers we have never forgotten.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What a difference seven years makes.

GUPTA: This is the place where you jumped.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. This is the place where I lived.

COOPER: Wow.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is Bill from CNN.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is my first time, today.

BILL WEIR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: These are the champions for change.

BURNETT: It is amazing.

GUPTA: I just get to tell your story.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "Champions for Change," a week-long CNN special event, all next week.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:40:22] CAMEROTA: It will come as no surprise that politicians can be hypocritical. Brace yourself. And --

BERMAN: Really?

CAMEROTA: Yes. And, not only that they, they can change their positions based on who is in the White House.

BERMAN: No, that is so not true.

CAMEROTA: I know. It is stunning.

But what is even more surprising in some ways is that it used to be worse.

John Avlon broke into the CNN video vault for this "Reality Check."

What do you got, John?

JOHN AVLON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, look, there's an epidemic of situational ethics going on in Washington, D.C. Republicans embrace President Trump's total opposition to congressional oversight and Democrats vote to hold AG Bill Barr in contempt of Congress have offered us a master class in this epic form of political hypocrisy.

Now, situational ethics is the opposite of real ethics, the moral principles you try to apply regardless of self-interest.

For example, here's Lindsey Graham, back in 1998, invoking the sins of Republican Richard Nixon to try and apply them to Democrat Bill Clinton.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC): Article 3 of impeachment against Richard Nixon, the article was based on the idea that Richard Nixon, as president, failed to comply with subpoenas of Congress. Congress was going through its oversight function to provide oversight of the president. When asked for information, Richard Nixon chose not to comply.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AVLON: Sound familiar? But now, of course, Graham is singing a very different tune, saying that Donald Trump should fight like hell to resist subpoenas issued by congressional Democrats who he calls political hacks.

Now, how about the decision to hold an attorney general in contempt of Congress? Here's one senator's righteous indignation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. MARCO RUBIO (R-FL): I think that it is outrageous that any attorney general, Republican or Democrat, refuse to comply with Congress' constitutional right to hold them accountable and the Justice Department accountable. I would say that if this was a Republican, just like I do now because it's a Democrat.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AVLON: Now, that applies almost perfectly to the situation with Bill Barr today. But, as you may have guessed, it's Marco Rubio back in 2012 railing against Obama AG Eric Holder for refusing to hand over documents related to the Fast and Furious gun walking (ph) scheme.

Now, the key line is Rubio insisting that I would say that if it was a Republican, just like I do now because it's a Democrat. That's the way it should work. But it doesn't. Instead, now Rubio's calling the Barr contempt vote a political stunt.

But situational ethics isn't a partisan affliction. Now, back when Republicans held Eric Holder in contempt, Democrats walked out. Jerry Nadler joined the protest, calling the vote shameful and politically motivated.

And here's Nancy Pelosi at the time.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA): What we have seen is a shameful display of abuse of power. Instead of bringing job creating -- creating legislation to the floor, the transportation bill, they are holding the attorney general of the United States in contempt of Congress.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AVLON: That's pretty close to what we're hearing from Republicans today, calling for a focus on issues, not investigations.

Look, you can reasonably argue there is a magnitude of difference between the Russia investigation and Fast and Furious. There is. But the echo is unmistakable.

Principles only matter if they're applied regardless of party. And there is a transcendent standard set out by Chief Justice Earl Warren, a California Republican, who explained that, quote, the power of Congress to conduct investigations is inherent in the legislative process. That power is broad. And he connected them to efforts to expose corruption. It should apply no matter who's president.

But Trump era politicians are betting that people won't remember their ethical flip-flops or will be too busy hating on the other side to care about their hypocrisy.

And that's your "Reality Check."

BERMAN: I've got to say, when you say hypocrisy is not a partisan affliction, all I can think about is a lot of people running around with bad rashes or something. You say affliction there. I don't know, am I on the right track?

AVLON: If it did -- if it did inspire rashes, maybe politicians would try to avoid them more. You know, if it was that evident.

CAMEROTA: That would be great, visible rashes, that's really what we need.

BERMAN: Yes. AVLON: Visible rashes.

BERMAN: Or there would be tax breaks for the lotion business.

AVLON: Yes.

BERMAN: All right, John, thank you very much for that.

CAMEROTA: Wow.

Now, here's what else to watch today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ON SCREEN TEXT: 9:30 a.m. ET, Uber goes public.

11:00 a.m. ET, Sen. Booker gun violence roundtable.

4:15 p.m. ET, President Trump military mothers celebration.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[08:44:50] BERMAN: All right, this week's shooting at a Colorado school is just the latest in a string of mass shootings in that state. We're going to speak to survivors about the epidemic of gun violence in America and what their advice is to some of the survivors from this week's shooting.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BERMAN: Tuesday's deadly mass shooting at STEM School in Colorado happened just seven miles from Columbine where 13 people were killed 20 years ago. Since then, mass shootings have become all too common in the United States with Colorado being particularly hard hit.

Our next guest, Zachary Cartaya, survived the Columbine shooting. He's joined by Kaylan Bailey, who was just 13 years old when she survived the shooting at the Aroura movie theater. Her six-year-old cousin was killed in that attack.

I have to say to both of you, I so appreciate you being here because I think what you have to say and your perspective is so valuable for the survivors of this spate, for this epidemic of shootings that keeps happening. I think you're necessary and I think it's tragic that you're so necessary at this point.

[08:50:02] Zach, I want to start with you here.

It's almost exactly 20 years ago that Columbine happened. Almost exactly. Just seven miles this attack at the STEM School was from Columbine.

So what's your reaction 20 years later or what was your reaction that a shooting, another school shooting was taking place just seven miles from where you survived?

ZACHARY CARTAYA, COLUMBINE SHOOTING SURVIVOR: Well, I -- good morning and thank you so much for having me.

My reaction is the same as it is every single time this happens, I'm just absolutely distraught and heartbroken that this keeps happening in our country, not only our country, but across our great state. Colorado should be known for so much more than what's happening here because it's such a great place to live.

In the initial aftermath after the shooting, I was very lost. I was in -- I was in shock. But as this continues to happen, I find myself more and more frustrated. Columbine was really the first and there were screams and cries of never again and that was how it was supposed to happen and that's how it was supposed to be. But here we are, 20 years later, and this continues to happen. It happened 13 years later in Aurora. It happened after that at Arapahoe High School in Colorado Springs. It happened just recently at the STEM School in Highlands Ranch. And then, in addition to that, you have Parkland and the Pulse Nightclub shooting and just too many more to mention. It just keeps happening. And it's frustrating to almost a fault.

BERMAN: Do you have any sense, Zach, of why Colorado, yes, it does happen everywhere, but why there do seem to be so many instances in Colorado?

CARTAYA: You know, I struggle with that. I don't know why it keeps happening in our great state. I think we, as a society, and the media as well, has come a long way in working to not glamorize or give notoriety to the shooters. But at the time that Columbine happened, our murderers were -- you -- they're household names now.

BERMAN: Sure.

CARTAYA: Everyone knows who they are and you can't put the lid back on that bottle.

BERMAN: Right.

CARTAYA: And so I think the fact that it happened here with the notoriety around those two really pushed the narrative that allowed that -- gave that oxygen and allowed that to manifest and metastasize, unfortunately.

BERMAN: I think you're absolutely right. I mean you go back and their names were known. And it's so interesting because this week I couldn't tell you the names of the shooters at the shooting at the STEM School. I never learned them. Intentionally didn't want to know them. And I don't think most Americans know their name. And I think that that's a good thing.

Kaylan, again, for you it was 2012 at the Aurora movie theater. You were just 13 years old. You lost your six-year-old cousin at that shooting.

So, again, when you hear of a shooting like this in your state, or in the same state, in Colorado, does it bring you back to that horrible moment? KAYLAN BAILEY, AURORA THEATER SHOOTING SURVIVOR: Oh, absolutely. Not

even a shooting in Colorado, any shooting, any tragedy that happens anywhere, any part of the world, not even just the United States. It affects me and I'm sure it affects everybody else as well. And it's just the thought and the process of the fact that it does keep happening. And we have the power to control that and to stop it and yet here we are yet another -- another day has gone by, another shooting has gone by, and it's so normalized that we almost expect it, and it's not surprising when it happens anymore. And that's -- that's the tragedy of it.

BERMAN: We failed. There's just no question that we have failed to deal with this. But, in one aspect, you both have succeeded. And, again, it's sad to me that -- that you're so necessary here, but it's to help survivors of these shootings.

And I want to play you sound from a young man that Alisyn spoke to yesterday, Chris Elledge, who survived the shooting yesterday, this is what he told us.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRIS ELLEDGE, SURVIVED STEM SCHOOL SHOOTING: We're going to get through it as a community because, you know, you don't stop your life just because of one bad thing. You can't -- you can't let that get in the way. You have to band together as a community. You have to stay strong, STEM strong. STEM strong.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: It broke my heart when I was seeing that because it seemed to me he was trying to be so strong. And I know it's not going to be that easy over the next few years. So, for the rest of the time we have, I want you both to give advice to him and to those survivors there.

Kaylan, you first. What does Chris need to know?

BAILEY: Well, first and foremost, you're never alone. No matter what. No matter if it's -- whether you have your parents or your best friends or a complete stranger that might have -- might have or might have not been through what you've been through. It's never -- you never have to go about it alone. And that's the first thing that I would like to say to everybody and all the survivors out there that may be listening. There is always somebody that maybe not can't relate to you, but can definitely sit there and just listen to you.

The -- being strong, that is a wonderful thing, but I don't want anyone to think that they have to be strong right away. It's OK to grieve. It's OK to hurt. It's OK to feel loss. It's OK to not even know what you're feeling at all.

BERMAN: Right.

[08:55:12] BAILEY: You know, it's OK to know that something's wrong, but you can't quite pinpoint it. You know you may just have days where you're just upset -- BERMAN: Right.

BAILEY: You're just mad at the world and everything that everyone does is making you mad and upset and it -- it may just be that you just have to sit down and get in tune with yourself, you know, grow within yourself. And definitely reach out to the people around you. Don't try to fight this alone because that's a dangerous game.

BERMAN: Ask. Ask for help.

Zach, I know you've made this your life to a certain extent. We're almost out of time, but what's your advice to the survivors?

CARTAYA: Well, I'd really like to echo all of Kaylan's sentiments and also recovery is a marathon, not a race. It's going to take time and it's ongoing. There's a new normal in their lives that is going -- they're going to have to adapt to and change with and don't be afraid to ask for help and don't ever feel alone.

And, finally, it gets better. There are going to be some times where it gets better and you're going to relapse and recover and continue to relapse and recover, but it's going to get better and there's light at the other end of the tunnel.

BERMAN: Again, Zachary Cartaya, Kaylan Bailey, we're so glad that we have you. The survivors are lucky that they have you. It's tragic that we all need you.

Thanks so much for being with us this morning and thank you for the work you both have been doing.

CARTAYA: Thank you.

BAILEY: Thank you for having me. Thanks.

BERMAN: All right, Dow futures pointing down ahead of the opening bell. We're going to cover the escalating trade war between the U.S. and China right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: A very good Friday morning to you. I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Poppy Harlow in New York.

We do begin with major, breaking news.

[09:00:00] The trade war embroiling the two biggest economies on earth, just got a lot more intense.